| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"Richo" |
| Date: |
03 Apr 2007 08:56:31 AM |
| Object: |
my post to Stumpers new google group. |
Stumper says:
"Atheists want you to prove that God exists."
Is this true? Is it believable?
Atheists don't think God exists and many believe it to be a good thing
that it doesn't exist.
What I believe Stumper is being misled by is the fact that atheists
often say to believers
"Prove God exists!" or "Show me evidence of Gods existence!"
They do not say these things because they actually want God to be
proved they say it because they truly believe that it cannot be done
and so it puts the believer on the spot and they must fail to meet
this challange - and so far they always have.
"But as soon as they are asked to define God,
they just cite the Bible and read it in the most literal way."
This is a half truth - or perhaps that is a little too generous.
Firstly it is not the work of the atheist to define God - that is the
job of the believer.
Atheism is largely *reactive* - the athiest disbelieves in the gods
supplied by the believer.
Secondly the work of defining God *has* been done by the believers and
they have written the Bibles, the Koran and entire libraries of
theology and commentary accumulated for over 2 thousand years - so
there is no need to invent new definitions.
The bit about "the most literal way" is unfortunately partially true.
The reason being that it easiest to attack the most fundamentalist,
simplistic and literalist versions of a faith - and people take the
easy route.
Of course there is no *intrinsic* need for an atheist to attack
anyones belief at all.
Atheists *do* attack peoples beliefs largely as a reaction to being
attacked for being atheist.
Cause and effect - Karma at work.
"What they don't realize is that God does not
have to exist in the way expected by humans."
What you do not understand is that God does not have to exist -
whatever humans may or may not expect.
"They are completely ignoring all references to God
as something ineffable, unknowable, supernatural, etc."
I don't think they care.
What is wrong with ignoring the unknowable and ineffible?
Is it preferable to have strong and definite and specific opinions
about the unkowable and ineffable?
Surely that is unwise and shows an astounding lack of humility.
"We need to know what God is to begin to talk about it."
True.
"How about some working hypotheses?
Anyone?"
"God" is the god of the monotheistic religions.
It is a synthesis of pre-existing gods informed by greek philosophy.
It is described in the mythology of the peoples of the middle east and
evolved from earlier gods of the peoples of the middle east.
I could go on - but there are entire libraries of books that say it
better than I could summarize.
So I'll stop there - unless you (dear reader) desire some specific
information.
Mark. (Stumpers Guru)
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| User: "Sippuddin" |
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| Title: Re: my post to Stumpers new google group. |
19 Apr 2007 09:29:24 AM |
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Richo wrote:
Stumper says:
"Atheists want you to prove that God exists."
Is this true? Is it believable?
Atheists don't think God exists and many believe it to be a good thing
that it doesn't exist.
What I believe Stumper is being misled by is the fact that atheists
often say to believers
"Prove God exists!" or "Show me evidence of Gods existence!"
They do not say these things because they actually want God to be
proved they say it because they truly believe that it cannot be done
Just the opposite. We just DO NOT BELIEVE it can be done. Atheism is not
a belief; just as asymmetry is just an absence of symmetry, atheism is
simply an absence of theism, "Atheism is characterized by an absence of
belief in the existence of gods." --
http://www.infidels.org/news/atheism/intro.html
Atheist agnostics go a little beyond a mere absence of belief that there
might be a god to unabashedly deny and repudiate, on principle, any such
religious belief (belief without evidence):
"That which Agnostics deny and repudiate, as immoral, is the contrary
doctrine, that there are propositions which men ought to believe,
without logically satisfactory evidence." -- Thomas Huxley, who coined
the term 'agnostic', in his excoriation of the Christian Belief,
"Agnosticism and Christianity"
http://aleph0.clarku.edu/huxley/CE5/Agn-X.html
"The deepest sin against the human mind is to believe things without
evidence." -- Thomas Huxley, Evolution and Ethics
This seems to be a universal principle:
"Do not believe in anything simply because you have heard it. Do not
believe in anything simply because it is spoken and rumored by many. Do
not believe in anything simply because it is found written in your
religious books. Do not believe in anything merely on the authority of
your teachers and elders. Do not believe in traditions because they have
been handed down for many generations. But after observation and
analysis, when you find that anything agrees with reason and is
conducive to the good and benefit of one and all, then accept it and
live up to it." -- Gautama Shakyamuni (Buddha)
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| User: "Virgil" |
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| Title: Re: my post to Stumpers new google group. |
19 Apr 2007 03:32:38 PM |
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In article <4vqdnYpTiLZY4brbnZ2dnUVZ_tTinZ2d@comcast.com>,
Sippuddin <sipp@macrosoft.net> wrote:
Richo wrote:
What I believe Stumper is being misled by is the fact that atheists
often say to believers
"Prove God exists!" or "Show me evidence of Gods existence!"
They do not say these things because they actually want God to be
proved they say it because they truly believe that it cannot be done
Just the opposite.
So Setpic believes it CAN be done?
I always knew he was a secret theist in drag.
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| User: "Richo" |
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| Title: Re: my post to Stumpers new google group. |
20 Apr 2007 08:50:49 AM |
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On Apr 20, 12:29 am, Sippuddin <s...@macrosoft.net> wrote:
Richo wrote:
Stumper says:
"Atheists want you to prove that God exists."
Is this true? Is it believable?
Atheists don't think God exists and many believe it to be a good thing
that it doesn't exist.
What I believe Stumper is being misled by is the fact that atheists
often say to believers
"Prove God exists!" or "Show me evidence of Gods existence!"
They do not say these things because they actually want God to be
proved they say it because they truly believe that it cannot be done
Just the opposite.
Eh?
You didnt actually read that properly did you?
We just DO NOT BELIEVE it can be done.
Which is what I said you noodle head.
"Do not believe in anything simply because you have heard it. Do not
believe in anything simply because it is spoken and rumored by many. Do
not believe in anything simply because it is found written in your
religious books. Do not believe in anything merely on the authority of
your teachers and elders. Do not believe in traditions because they have
been handed down for many generations. But after observation and
analysis, when you find that anything agrees with reason and is
conducive to the good and benefit of one and all, then accept it and
live up to it." -- Gautama Shakyamuni (Buddha)
I always liked this quote - where did you get it from?
Mark.
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| User: "J Forbes" |
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| Title: Re: my post to Stumpers new google group. |
03 Apr 2007 11:19:07 AM |
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Richo wrote:
Stumper says:
"How about some working hypotheses?
Anyone?"
My working hypothesis is that god is make-believe. This hypothesis so
far has very good explanatory power....religions do work the way they
would if god indeed were only fantasy. Everything fits. The only
part that some people seem to have a hard time grasping, is that so
many people can believe such fantasy so deeply....how is it that
humans hold such beliefs? This is a question for psychologists to
answer, and they are starting to make a bit of progress. Read recent
works by authors such as Dennett (although he's a philosopher),
Pinker, Boyer, and others in the same vein.
Jim
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| User: "Richo" |
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| Title: Re: my post to Stumpers new google group. |
03 Apr 2007 06:51:48 PM |
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On Apr 4, 2:19 am, "J Forbes" <jforbnos...@selectric.org> wrote:
Richo wrote:
Stumper says:
"How about some working hypotheses?
Anyone?"
My working hypothesis is that god is make-believe. This hypothesis so
far has very good explanatory power....religions do work the way they
would if god indeed were only fantasy. Everything fits. The only
part that some people seem to have a hard time grasping, is that so
many people can believe such fantasy so deeply....how is it that
humans hold such beliefs? This is a question for psychologists to
answer, and they are starting to make a bit of progress. Read recent
works by authors such as Dennett (although he's a philosopher),
Pinker, Boyer, and others in the same vein.
Jim
I like your working hypothesis better than stumpers.
It helps make sense of things.
Mark.
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