| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"" |
| Date: |
20 Dec 2003 12:09:54 PM |
| Object: |
My rebuttal to Gardiner/Searle's rebuttal |
PART VI
:|From: ambro8se searle ( )
:|Subject: Re: Government churches should be constitutionally rabid
:|Newsgroups: misc.education.home-school.christian, alt.politics.libertarian, >:|alt.politics.usa.constitution, alt.politics, alt.education, misc.education, alt.atheism
:|Date: 2003-11-17 20:19:28 PST
buckeye-ELO@nospam.net wrote in message
news:<rsjhrv8v1a4t65sfruk3napobjlumnl1i1@4ax.com>...
:|> (ambrose searle aka richard gardiner) wrote:
:|>
:|> The impartial reader will carefully consider what Ambrose Searle AKA
:|> Richard Gardiner has posted. In fact, I strongly recommend that. I
:|> recommend they carefully examine any cites that Searle/Gardiner has
:|> provided.
:|>
:|> That same impartial reader will then carefully examine all the information
:|> found at he following site:
:|>
:|> Christian Orthodoxy And The Founders
:|> http://members.tripod.com/~candst/orthodox.htm
:|Let's examine that "impartial" site again, shall we?
OK.
:|Finally, as already pointed out, Allison's page relies heavily on Paul
:|Rahe to prove that Madison was not orthodox.
:|Rahe's expertise is in the area of the history of the Ancient Near
:|East, Greece, and ancient Rome. His focus is the overlap between
:|classical republics and the U.S. His book, which Allison relies upon,
:|is REPUBLICS ANCIENT AND MODERN.
Heavily? Not even close. As shown in the previous Parts I-IV of this
rebuttal. There were a vast array of sources, scholars, etc, cited and
quoted as well as a great deal of primary source data in the various URLs
from the article to other articles on the web site ands off that site.
:|Ketcham, on the other hand, is probably the most respected living
:|scholar and biographer of JAMES MADISON. His Doctoral Dissertation,
:|written at Syracuse, was titled "THE MIND OF JAMES MADISON."
:|Subsequently he has written a biography, several other books directly
:|focusing on Madison, and articles regarding the religious views of
:|James Madison.
:|Needless to say, Ketcham buried himself in Madison's life in a way
:|that Rahe only scratched the surface.
:|Rahe hasn't come close to that kind of intense research on Madison.
:|In short, Ketcham is in a much better position to assess the mind of
:|James Madison than Paul Rahe.
Okay, thanks for the build up which you will now be unable to escape from.
Here is the section pertaining to Madison found On the Orthodox article
(1). Topic: Madison never seemed to have been an ardent believer himself
(Ketcham, William Lee Miller, Robert Alley)
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=g:thl2138498068d&dq=&hl=en&lr=&selm=386b43cc.6165287%40news.exis.net&rnum=1
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=386b43cc.6165287%40news.exis.net&output=gplain
[12-29-99]
(2). Topic: Additional info showing Madison never seemed to have been an
ardent believer himself (Ketcham)
http://www.deja.com/getdoc.xp?AN=566179370&fmt=text [12-29-99]
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=g:thl2138498068d&dq=&hl=en&lr=&selm=387c7366.14627437%40news.exis.net
[AND]
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=g:thl1932347190d&dq=&hl=en&lr=&selm=386c439f.2394645%40news.exis.net
[AND]
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=g:thl1932347190d&dq=&hl=en&lr=&selm=387db01c.2921488%40news.exis.net
(3). Topic: Madison's Familiarity with writings of Europeans (Ketcham)
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=g:thl2138498068d&dq=&hl=en&lr=&selm=386d4b72.8123421%40news.exis.net
[12-29-99]
(4). Topic: Additional info on Madison's familiarity with writings of
Europeans (Ketcham)
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=g:thl1932347190d&dq=&hl=en&lr=&selm=386c439f.2394645%40news.exis.net
[12-29-99]
(5). Topic: Did "religious freedom" for Jefferson and Madison extend
to atheists? Yes. (William Lee Miller)
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=g:thl2138498068d&dq=&hl=en&lr=&selm=387c7366.14627437%40news.exis.net
[12-30-99]
(6). Topic: Gardiner's fudging on Priestley [12-30-99]
http://groups.google.com/groups?oi=djq&selm=an_566603206
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=g:thl1519449593d&dq=&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&selm=387972cb.14472662%40news.exis.net&rnum=14
(7). Topic: Response to Gardiner's reply on familiarity with writings of
Europeans plus letter TO F. L. SCHAEFFER (only mention of Luther in any of
Madison's writings found to date) and references to Blackstone in Madison's
writings (Ketcham) [12-30-99]
http://makeashorterlink.com/?O26213896
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=387669cf.12171966%40news.exis.net&oe=UTF-8&output=gplain
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=g:thl1519449593d&dq=&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&selm=387669cf.12171966%40news.exis.net
(8). Topic: Evidence relating to the substance of Madison's religious
studies during this period (childhood to 1776) is scanty. (Ketcham)
[12-30-99]
http://groups.google.com/groups?oi=djq&selm=an_566596922
(9). Topic: Additional evidence that Madison's religion or lack thereof
was largely unknown [12-30-99] (Madison)
http://groups.google.com/groups?oi=djq&selm=an_566505236
(10). Topic: Here was a man (Madison) inspired by what she described as
"the true religion of statesmanship, (political religion, the religion of
politics) ("Madison" in Martineau's Retrospect of Western Travel
(London and New York, 1838). Drew McCoy) [12-30-99]
http://groups.google.com/groups?oi=djq&selm=an_566596921
(11). Topic: There is positive evidence that he (Madison) never intended to
make the ministry his life work, (Ketcham) [12-30-99]
http://groups.google.com/groups?oi=djq&selm=an_566505231
(12). Topic: Madison & Calvin (Ketcham) 12-30-99]
http://groups.google.com/groups?oi=djq&selm=an_566466752
(13). Topic: it becomes apparent that Madison did not maintain his
interest in theological controversy very long after his period of entrance
into public life in 1776. (Ketcham) [12-30-99]
http://groups.google.com/groups?oi=djq&selm=an_566596920
(14). Topic: Madison went far beyond Locke (Ketcham) [12-31-99]
http://groups.google.com/groups?oi=djq&selm=an_566824290
(15). Topic: He [Madison] never became a member of the Episcopal Church
(Ketcham) [12-31-99]
http://groups.google.com/groups?oi=djq&selm=an_566824288
(16). Topic: Lack of mentioning of Luther and Calvin in the Papers of
Madison (The Papers of James Madison ) [12-31-99]
http://groups.google.com/groups?oi=djq&selm=an_566845179
(17). Topic: Bogus quote attributed to Madison (Robert S. Alley) [12-31-99]
http://groups.google.com/groups?oi=djq&selm=an_566824287
(18). Topic: In 1814, Madison demonstrated his occasional Enlightenment
antagonism toward clericalism in a bitter comment on New England's
resistance to the War of 1812: (Ketcham) [12-31-99]
http://groups.google.com/groups?oi=djq&selm=an_566824289
(19). Topic: Madison, Religion and education (letters to and from Madison)
[1-1-00]
http://makeashorterlink.com/?X21E63896
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=38781f1e.16513987%40news.exis.net&oe=UTF-8&output=gplain
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=g:thl4163172164d&dq=&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&selm=38781f1e.16513987%40news.exis.net
(20). Topic: Beasley had written to Madison requesting that he offer his
opinion on a pamphlet, Vindication of the Argument a prior in Proof of the
Being and Attributes of God. (letter from Madison) [1-1-00]
http://groups.google.com/groups?oi=djq&selm=an_567132679
(21). Topic: Madison and Separation Church & State (Madison) [1-1-00]
http://makeashorterlink.com/?D13E22896
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=387311b8.13084091%40news.exis.net&oe=UTF-8&output=gplain
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=g:thl1262978779d&dq=&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&selm=387311b8.13084091%40news.exis.net
(22). Topic: Asking Childress a question about Madison that Childress has
never answered [1-2-00]
http://groups.google.com/groups?oi=djq&selm=an_567462905
(23). Topic: About the General assessment battle in Virginia (Robert A.
Rutland,) [ Jan. 22, 2000]
http://makeashorterlink.com/?D26E12896
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=k05qbskl4t2s4vldg3p8ihb9epqri9eucc%404ax.com&oe=UTF-8&output=gplain
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=buckeye%40exis.net,+In+this+confused+situation+Presbyterians+occupied+an+ambiguous&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&selm=k05qbskl4t2s4vldg3p8ihb9epqri9eucc%404ax.com&rnum=2&filter=0
(24). Topic: Madison and 1774-76 [Jan 22, 2000] (Robert A. Rutland)
http://groups.google.com/groups?oi=djq&selm=an_591737267
(25). Topic: A comparison between the fifteen-paragraph Memorial and
Remonstrance and John Locke's "Letter on Toleration" (1685) leads to the
speculation that Madison had occasion to use Locke's treatise in preparing
his own. (Robert A. Rutland) [Jan. 22, 2000]
http://groups.google.com/groups?oi=djq&selm=an_591737290
(26) (James Madison's Memorial and Remonstrance [1-3-00] (Madison)
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=3881a295.5536473%40news.exis.net&oe=UTF-8&output=gplain
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=g:thl4163172164d&dq=&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&selm=3881a295.5536473%40news.exis.net
(27) Explanation of James Madison's Memorial and Remonstrance [1-3-00]
(Ketcham)
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=9hu1dskd1qcunsmbp1t84qi5s9f0el89sd%404ax.com&oe=UTF-8&output=gplain
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=g:thl527410419d&dq=&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&selm=9hu1dskd1qcunsmbp1t84qi5s9f0el89sd%404ax.com
(28). Topic: Reminding Gardiner Madison never joined the Episcopalian
church (Ketcham) [1-4-00]
http://groups.google.com/groups?oi=djq&selm=an_568184543
(29). Topic: Letters from Madison showing he was not well versed in
theology and religion
http://www.deja.com/getdoc.xp?AN=569518061&fmt=text [1-7-00]
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=g:thl1499747947d&dq=&hl=en&lr=&selm=3879dc70.2989938%40news.exis.net
(30). Topic: Why did Madison go to Princeton (Irving
Brant, The Papers of James Madison, Madison, Ketcham) [1-7-00]
http://makeashorterlink.com/?U2E935A96
http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&selm=vne8pvg236qs0tohiv768cqa5m0psvah7a%404ax.com&prev=/groups%3Fq%3Dbuckeye-ELO%2540nospam.net,%2Bsearle,%2Bwhy%2Bdid%2BMadison%2Bgo%2Bto%2Bprinceton%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26ie%3DUTF-8%26oe%3DUTF-8%26selm%3Dvne8pvg236qs0tohiv768cqa5m0psvah7a%25404ax.com%26rnum%3D4%26filter%3D0
http://makeashorterlink.com/?N10A21A96
(31) From probably even before the Constitution was written, on the various
state levels two primary camps of thought and desires formed regarding
religion and the state [1-11-00] [1]
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=387f3215.6366757%40news.exis.net&oe=UTF-8&output=gplain
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=g:thl3565196566d&dq=&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&selm=387f3215.6366757%40news.exis.net&rnum=63
(32) Montesquieu, Hume, Madison, By Paul A. Rahe [1-11-00] [II]
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=389673c3.23182906%40news.exis.net&oe=UTF-8&output=gplain
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=g:thl3565196566d&dq=&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&selm=389673c3.23182906%40news.exis.net
(33). Topic: Princeton, Witherspoon, Hume, Madison, By Paul A. Rahe
http://groups.google.com/groups?oi=djq&selm=an_571284476 [1-11-00] [III]
(34). Topic: Madison to William Bradford, Dec. 1. 1773.
http://www.deja.com/getdoc.xp?AN=571284477&fmt=text [1-11-00] [IV]
(34). Topic: Madison to William Bradford, Jan 24. 1774
http://www.deja.com/getdoc.xp?AN=571855762&fmt=text [1-12-00] [V]
(34) Madison to William Bradford, Dec. 1. 1773. [1-11-00] [IV]
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=38a07b26.25074153%40news.exis.net&oe=UTF-8&output=gplain
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=g:thl3565196566d&dq=&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&selm=38a07b26.25074153%40news.exis.net
(35) Madison to William Bradford, Jan 24. 1774 [1-12-00] [V]
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=3891c390.7443939%40news.exis.net&oe=UTF-8&output=gplain
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=g:thl3565196566d&dq=&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&selm=3891c390.7443939%40news.exis.net
(36). Topic: Madison, Witherspoon, Princeton, By Paul A. Rahe [1-12-00]
[VI]
http://groups.google.com/groups?oi=djq&selm=an_571855764
(37). Topic: Smith, Madison Voltaire, Locke, E. Randolph, By Paul A. Rahe
http://www.deja.com/getdoc.xp?AN=571855765&fmt=text [1-12-00] [VII]
(38) Smith, Madison Voltaire, Locke, E. Randolph, By Paul A. Rahe [1-12-00]
[VII]
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=38a7d343.11463649%40news.exis.net&oe=UTF-8&output=gplain
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=g:thl3565196566d&dq=&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&selm=38a7d343.11463649%40news.exis.net
(39) Madison identified as a Deist, language of Deism, etc. By Paul A. Rahe
[1-12-00] [VIII]
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=38aad4c1.11846387%40news.exis.net&oe=UTF-8&output=gplain
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=g:thl3565196566d&dq=&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&selm=38aad4c1.11846387%40news.exis.net
(40). Topic: There is no principle in all of Madison's wide range of
private opinions and long public career to which he held with greater vigor
and tenacity than this one of religious liberty. The strength of this
consistency was heightened significantly by the substitution of the concept
of freedom of conscience for the Lockean idea of toleration. [1-18-00]
[part I] (The Papers of James Madison)
http://groups.google.com/groups?oi=djq&selm=an_574362732
(41). Topic: Declaration of Rights and Form of Government of Virginia (in
depth) [1-18-00] [part II] (The Papers of James Madison)
http://groups.google.com/groups?oi=djq&selm=an_574362733
(42). Topic: Madison and Va Declaration of Rights (in depth)
[1-18-00] [part III] (The Papers of James Madison)
http://groups.google.com/groups?oi=djq&selm=an_574362734
(43) Virginia Declaration of Rights (in depth) [1-18-00] [part IV]
(The Papers of James Madison)
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=o2i98scdl00d11lciri6g6qvevgp9sodqg%404ax.com&oe=UTF-8&output=gplain
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=g:thl527410419d&dq=&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&selm=o2i98scdl00d11lciri6g6qvevgp9sodqg%404ax.com
(44). Topic: Committee's Proposed Article on Religion (in depth)
(The Papers of James Madison)
[1-18-00] [part V]
http://groups.google.com/groups?oi=djq&selm=an_574362737
(45) Madison and Joseph Story [1-18-00]
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=v8v88skkoqgtgic0jnttbo1q5k97f5ub19%404ax.com&oe=UTF-8&output=gplain
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=g:thl827347558d&dq=&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&selm=v8v88skkoqgtgic0jnttbo1q5k97f5ub19%404ax.com&rnum=72
(46) Madison and Joseph Story [1-18-00]
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=t7v88scgtkns23ueobraiml94dbbvvqva0%404ax.com&oe=UTF-8&output=gplain
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=g:thl827347558d&dq=&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&selm=t7v88scgtkns23ueobraiml94dbbvvqva0%404ax.com&rnum=75
(47) About the General assessment battle in Virginia [ Jan. 22, 2000]
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=k05qbskl4t2s4vldg3p8ihb9epqri9eucc%404ax.com&oe=UTF-8&output=gplain
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=buckeye%40exis.net,+In+this+confused+situation+Presbyterians+occupied+an+ambiguous&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&selm=k05qbskl4t2s4vldg3p8ihb9epqri9eucc%404ax.com&rnum=2&filter=0
(48). Topic: George Mason, Madison and the Virginia Declaration of Rights
(The papers of James Madison) [1-20-99]
http://groups.google.com/groups?oi=djq&selm=an_575408885
(58). Topic: Additional evidence of Madison separating from Witherspoon on
church state thinking [John Witherspoon on Church and State, by James
Hastings Nichols. JOURNAL OF PRESBYTERIAN HISTORY, 42, (1964)
pp 171-73]
http://www.deja.com/getdoc.xp?AN=591400477&fmt=text
http://groups.google.com/groups?oi=djq&selm=an_591400477
==================================================
As one can see Rahe appears maybe 5 or 6 times, while Ketcham is the source
or joint source far more times than that. You have ben caught
misrepresenting again.
TO BE CONTINUED WITH PART VII SHORTLY
.
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