Cary Kittrell wrote:

In article <ctdvdn$9h8$1@usenet02.sei.cmu.edu> Donald Firesmith <donald_firesmith@hotmail.com> writes:

[snip]

It is one thing for an adult athiest to make that concious choice.
However an adult going to a religious institution not funded by taxes is
one thing; a child going to a public tax-supported institution is
something else.

P.S. I was raised a Southern Baptist. I like a lot of religious music,
but that still doesn't mean I want it taught to my son at school.

Surely, there is sufficient secular music to teach children in public
school.

Oh, I fully see your point; as I say, I find myself quite ambivalent
about the whole story

Being ambivalent about this, I have to say, shows that you haven't spent
enough time on the subject. This is not the time to sit on the fence.

(and I was raised Southern Baptist too. We had good music? I mean the
middle-class, white Baptists?)

I, too, was raised southern baptist (one of my ancestors was in that
handful that began the baptist church, too). Yes, there is some
excellent music there. Aren't you the guy who says he's a music lover?

True. And trying to "cut out" Christianity would rip huge swaths of our
cultural heritage to pieces.

It all depends on what they're doing. Whether it's being used to push
religion or not. Just singing a hymn isn't going to convert anybody.

In our last episode <ctduc4$oeo$1@onion.ccit.arizona.edu>, Cary Kittrell
lumbered into the room and mumbled:

Nonetheless, Greg is most certainly right that there is a large body
comprisihg our very highest musical heritage that was written in the
service of Christianity.

True. And trying to "cut out" Christianity would rip huge swaths of our
cultural heritage to pieces.

It all depends on what they're doing. Whether it's being used to push
religion or not. Just singing a hymn isn't going to convert anybody.

I can only offer the example of celebrated atheist and cell biologist
Ursula Goodenough who attends church every Sunday for the pure joy of
being able to sing in the choir, finds herself utterly inspired by the
music she sings -- and doesn't buy one word of the content.

Myself, I *love "Amazing Grace." Always have...

[ beg pardon: I'm duplicating this one to add `alt.education'; I think there
would be some interest -- cary ]
In article <41FA7937.C3A1B3D5@serv.net> Gregory Gadow <techbear@serv.net> writes:

Donald Firesmith wrote:

My son is taking a chorus class in his public middle school during
regular school hours. He came to us about 3 weeks ago and complained
that his is being taught to sing "Joyful, Joyful, We Adore Thee", which
is a Christian hymn sung to the tune of Beethoven's 9th symphony. The
lyrics by American clergyman Henry van ***** are:
“Joyful, joyful, we adore thee,
God of glory, Lord of love;
hearts unfold like flowers before thee,
opening to the sun above.
Melt the clouds of sin and sadness;
drive the dark of doubt away.
Giver of immortal gladness,
fill us with the light of day!”
Frankly, we were shocked. We live in a suburb of Pittsburg, not some
rural county in Alabama. So far, we have complained to the chorus
director, the interim school principal, and the superintendent of
schools. They all feel that this is not a violation of my son's 3rd
ammendment rights.

Has anyone else had to deal with the same problem? We are contemplating
working with the ACLU to stop this, but we are also concerned about the
negative repercussions of doing this in a largely christian world. We
don't exactly look forward to death threats from fundamentalists and
having our son picked on for being a secular humanist who refuses to
sing along.

What do you think?

Speaking as someone who did music and choruses through my education....

Cutting the sacred repetoire would cut at about three quarters of the choral
music that has ever been written, and nearly everything that was complex
enough to challenge and interest a middle school singer. That would be
detrimental to a decent musical education. If your son were in elementary
school, I would be inclined to agree with you, but from middle school on,
there really isn't much that *can* be done.

My high school choral director was an ex-nun, and was familiar with the
issues regarding religion (even back in the mid 1980s.) She opened every
school year with the above explanation and added that we were there to learn
*music*, not religion. We might sing a Gloria or Offertory or Credo, but we
were not expected to believe in any of the doctrinal content (in fact, I
half suspected she'd rather we didn't, but that's beside the point.) She
would be happy to give background information if asked, but our grade would
be solely on our commitment to the group, our development as singers and our
aptitude in sightreading and musicology. As long as that is the position of
your son's director, there really is no need to worry or complain.

Also, you might want to check your copy of the US Constitution (assuming you
live in the US.) The Third Amendment reads in full, "No soldier shall, in
time of peace be quartered in any house, without the consent of the owner,
nor in time of war, but in a manner to be prescribed by law." I don't think
that right is being violated here :-)

Hmmm. I certainly can see both points of view here -- if the kids came
home to the average parent in this country and mentioned they were
being taught to chant "Hare Krishna Hare Krisna Hare Rama...",
there would be hell to pay.

Nonetheless, Greg is most certainly right that there is a large body
comprising our very highest musical heritage that was written in the service
of Christianity.

I can only offer the example of celebrated atheist and cell biologist
Ursula Goodenough who attends church every Sunday for the pure joy
of being able to sing in the choir, finds herself utterly inspired
by the music she sings -- and doesn't buy one word of the content.

[ beg pardon: I'm duplicating this one to add `alt.education'; I think there
would be some interest -- cary ]


In article <41FA7937.C3A1B3D5@serv.net> Gregory Gadow <techbear@serv.net>
writes:

Donald Firesmith wrote:

My son is taking a chorus class in his public middle school during
regular school hours. He came to us about 3 weeks ago and complained
that his is being taught to sing "Joyful, Joyful, We Adore Thee", which
is a Christian hymn sung to the tune of Beethoven's 9th symphony. The
lyrics by American clergyman Henry van ***** are:
“Joyful, joyful, we adore thee,
God of glory, Lord of love;
hearts unfold like flowers before thee,
opening to the sun above.
Melt the clouds of sin and sadness;
drive the dark of doubt away.
Giver of immortal gladness,
fill us with the light of day!”

Frankly, we were shocked. We live in a suburb of Pittsburg, not some
rural county in Alabama. So far, we have complained to the chorus
director, the interim school principal, and the superintendent of
schools. They all feel that this is not a violation of my son's 3rd
ammendment rights.

Has anyone else had to deal with the same problem? We are contemplating
working with the ACLU to stop this, but we are also concerned about the
negative repercussions of doing this in a largely christian world. We
don't exactly look forward to death threats from fundamentalists and
having our son picked on for being a secular humanist who refuses to
sing along.

What do you think?

Speaking as someone who did music and choruses through my education....

Cutting the sacred repetoire would cut at about three quarters of the choral
music that has ever been written, and nearly everything that was complex
enough to challenge and interest a middle school singer. That would be
detrimental to a decent musical education. If your son were in elementary
school, I would be inclined to agree with you, but from middle school on,
there really isn't much that *can* be done.

My high school choral director was an ex-nun, and was familiar with the
issues regarding religion (even back in the mid 1980s.) She opened every
school year with the above explanation and added that we were there to learn
*music*, not religion. We might sing a Gloria or Offertory or Credo, but we
were not expected to believe in any of the doctrinal content (in fact, I
half suspected she'd rather we didn't, but that's beside the point.) She
would be happy to give background information if asked, but our grade would
be solely on our commitment to the group, our development as singers and our
aptitude in sightreading and musicology. As long as that is the position of
your son's director, there really is no need to worry or complain.

Also, you might want to check your copy of the US Constitution (assuming you
live in the US.) The Third Amendment reads in full, "No soldier shall, in
time of peace be quartered in any house, without the consent of the owner,
nor in time of war, but in a manner to be prescribed by law." I don't think
that right is being violated here :-)

Hmmm. I certainly can see both points of view here -- if the kids came
home to the average parent in this country and mentioned they were
being taught to chant "Hare Krishna Hare Krisna Hare Rama...",
there would be hell to pay.

Nonetheless, Greg is most certainly right that there is a large body
comprising our very highest musical heritage that was written in the service
of Christianity.

I can only offer the example of celebrated atheist and cell biologist
Ursula Goodenough who attends church every Sunday for the pure joy
of being able to sing in the choir, finds herself utterly inspired
by the music she sings -- and doesn't buy one word of the content.


-- cary

In our last episode <ctdrtc$95n$2@usenet02.sei.cmu.edu>, Donald Firesmith
lumbered into the room and mumbled:

My son is taking a chorus class in his public middle school during regular
school hours. He came to us about 3 weeks ago and complained that his is
being taught to sing "Joyful, Joyful, We Adore Thee", which is a Christian
hymn sung to the tune of Beethoven's 9th symphony. The lyrics by American
clergyman Henry van ***** are: "Joyful, joyful, we adore thee,
God of glory, Lord of love;
hearts unfold like flowers before thee, opening to the sun above.
Melt the clouds of sin and sadness;
drive the dark of doubt away.
Giver of immortal gladness,
fill us with the light of day!"

Frankly, we were shocked. We live in a suburb of Pittsburg, not some
rural county in Alabama. So far, we have complained to the chorus
director, the interim school principal, and the superintendent of schools.
They all feel that this is not a violation of my son's 3rd ammendment
rights.

Um... somebody's trying to quarter soldiers in your son's house?

Has anyone else had to deal with the same problem? We are contemplating
working with the ACLU to stop this, but we are also concerned about the
negative repercussions of doing this in a largely christian world. We
don't exactly look forward to death threats from fundamentalists and
having our son picked on for being a secular humanist who refuses to sing
along.

What do you think?

I think Christianity--for better or worse--is part of our cultural
heritage. Are they proselytizing? Being exclusive? If not, what's the
problem?