Donald Firesmith wrote:

Evolution always wins in the courts.

That hasn't stopped Pennsylvania, which is already discussing ID in the
classroom, as I mentioned:
http://www.cnn.com/2005/EDUCATION/01/19/evolution.debate.ap/index.html

And it will be fought.

Yes it will.

Does that
mean we should only worry about science teaching and ignore all other

violations of rights?

That depends on whether this is legally a violation, and I'm guessing
it isn;t - or it's so iffy that it will be really hard to nail them on
it.

How little of a violation of human rights does it
have to be before you think its not worth worring about?

There's violation and there's Violation. Like I said, I don't think
it's worth expending resources and energy fighting one as borderline as
this seems to be when there are bigger battles still to be fought.
Budikka

"Cary Kittrell" <cary@afone.as.arizona.edu> wrote in message
news:ctduc4$oeo$1@onion.ccit.arizona.edu...
: In article <41FA7937.C3A1B3D5@serv.net> Gregory Gadow
<techbear@serv.net> writes:
: > Donald Firesmith wrote:
: >
: > > My son is taking a chorus class in his public middle school
during
: > > regular school hours. He came to us about 3 weeks ago and
complained
: > > that his is being taught to sing "Joyful, Joyful, We Adore
Thee", which
: > > is a Christian hymn sung to the tune of Beethoven's 9th
symphony. The
: > > lyrics by American clergyman Henry van ***** are:
: > > "Joyful, joyful, we adore thee,
: > > God of glory, Lord of love;
: > > hearts unfold like flowers before thee,
: > > opening to the sun above.
: > > Melt the clouds of sin and sadness;
: > > drive the dark of doubt away.
: > > Giver of immortal gladness,
: > > fill us with the light of day!"
: > >
: > > Frankly, we were shocked. We live in a suburb of Pittsburg, not
some
: > > rural county in Alabama. So far, we have complained to the
chorus
: > > director, the interim school principal, and the superintendent
of
: > > schools. They all feel that this is not a violation of my son's
3rd
: > > ammendment rights.
: > >
: > > Has anyone else had to deal with the same problem? We are
contemplating
: > > working with the ACLU to stop this, but we are also concerned
about the
: > > negative repercussions of doing this in a largely christian
world. We
: > > don't exactly look forward to death threats from fundamentalists
and
: > > having our son picked on for being a secular humanist who
refuses to
: > > sing along.
: > >
: > > What do you think?

Don't be a wuss. Your kid's rights ARE being trampled. Are you going
to just let them do it? We had the same problem, but the ACLU rep was
a really slow-moving piece of *****, and didn't even respond until
after it was too late to do anything. I've often regretted not taking
it a good bit further.

: > Speaking as someone who did music and choruses through my
education....
: >
: > Cutting the sacred repetoire would cut at about three quarters of
the choral
: > music that has ever been written, and nearly everything that was
complex
: > enough to challenge and interest a middle school singer. That
would be
: > detrimental to a decent musical education. If your son were in
elementary
: > school, I would be inclined to agree with you, but from middle
school on,
: > there really isn't much that *can* be done.

What a load of crap. Just an excuse to let religion into public
school. Loser. Didn't you read the part that says the kid was
_COMPLAINING_? It sure sounds like coercion to me. The excuses
you're making here really make me sick.

: > My high school choral director was an ex-nun, and was familiar
with the
: > issues regarding religion (even back in the mid 1980s.) She opened
every
: > school year with the above explanation and added that we were
there to learn
: > *music*, not religion. We might sing a Gloria or Offertory or
Credo, but we
: > were not expected to believe in any of the doctrinal content (in
fact, I
: > half suspected she'd rather we didn't, but that's beside the
point.) She
: > would be happy to give background information if asked, but our
grade would
: > be solely on our commitment to the group, our development as
singers and our
: > aptitude in sightreading and musicology. As long as that is the
position of
: > your son's director, there really is no need to worry or complain.

Stated intent...sure...*****. It's wrong, it's wrong, it's wrong.
Your ex-nun knew what sort of scam she was running. Xians love
pushing their religion down everyone else's throats, and sack sacks
like you help them.

: > Also, you might want to check your copy of the US Constitution
(assuming you
: > live in the US.) The Third Amendment reads in full, "No soldier
shall, in
: > time of peace be quartered in any house, without the consent of
the owner,
: > nor in time of war, but in a manner to be prescribed by law." I
don't think
: > that right is being violated here :-)
:
:
: Hmmm. I certainly can see both points of view here -- if the kids
came
: home to the average parent in this country and mentioned they were
: being taught to chante "Hare Krishna Hare Krisna Hare Rama...",
: there would be hell to pay.
:
: Nonetheless, Greg is most certainly right that there is a large body
: comprisihg our very highest musical heritage that was written in the
service
: of Christianity.
:
: I can only offer the example of celebrated atheist and cell
biologist
: Ursula Goodenough who attends church every Sunday for the pure joy
: of being able to sing in the choir, finds herself utterly inspired
: by the music she sings -- and doesn't buy one word of the content.

The problem here, is that several of you people are saying, "it
doesn't bother me, so it shouldn't bother you" - totally ignoring the
fact that it is just plain fucking WRONG. Not to mention the fact
that the KID is complaining about it - don't care about his feelings,
do you?

I sure hope you guys aren't claiming to be real atheists, who care
about how others treat you because of it.

"Cary Kittrell" <cary@afone.as.arizona.edu> wrote in message
news:ctduc4$oeo$1@onion.ccit.arizona.edu...
: In article <41FA7937.C3A1B3D5@serv.net> Gregory Gadow
<techbear@serv.net> writes:
: > Donald Firesmith wrote:
: >
: > > My son is taking a chorus class in his public middle school
during
: > > regular school hours. He came to us about 3 weeks ago and
complained
: > > that his is being taught to sing "Joyful, Joyful, We Adore
Thee", which
: > > is a Christian hymn sung to the tune of Beethoven's 9th
symphony. The
: > > lyrics by American clergyman Henry van ***** are:
: > > "Joyful, joyful, we adore thee,
: > > God of glory, Lord of love;
: > > hearts unfold like flowers before thee,
: > > opening to the sun above.
: > > Melt the clouds of sin and sadness;
: > > drive the dark of doubt away.
: > > Giver of immortal gladness,
: > > fill us with the light of day!"
: > >
: > > Frankly, we were shocked. We live in a suburb of Pittsburg, not
some
: > > rural county in Alabama. So far, we have complained to the
chorus
: > > director, the interim school principal, and the superintendent
of
: > > schools. They all feel that this is not a violation of my son's
3rd
: > > ammendment rights.
: > >
: > > Has anyone else had to deal with the same problem? We are
contemplating
: > > working with the ACLU to stop this, but we are also concerned
about the
: > > negative repercussions of doing this in a largely christian
world. We
: > > don't exactly look forward to death threats from fundamentalists
and
: > > having our son picked on for being a secular humanist who
refuses to
: > > sing along.
: > >
: > > What do you think?

Don't be a wuss. Your kid's rights ARE being trampled. Are you going
to just let them do it? We had the same problem, but the ACLU rep was
a really slow-moving piece of *****, and didn't even respond until
after it was too late to do anything. I've often regretted not taking
it a good bit further.

: > Speaking as someone who did music and choruses through my
education....
: >
: > Cutting the sacred repetoire would cut at about three quarters of
the choral
: > music that has ever been written, and nearly everything that was
complex
: > enough to challenge and interest a middle school singer. That
would be
: > detrimental to a decent musical education. If your son were in
elementary
: > school, I would be inclined to agree with you, but from middle
school on,
: > there really isn't much that *can* be done.

What a load of crap. Just an excuse to let religion into public
school. Loser. Didn't you read the part that says the kid was
_COMPLAINING_? It sure sounds like coercion to me. The excuses
you're making here really make me sick.

: > My high school choral director was an ex-nun, and was familiar
with the
: > issues regarding religion (even back in the mid 1980s.) She opened
every
: > school year with the above explanation and added that we were
there to learn
: > *music*, not religion. We might sing a Gloria or Offertory or
Credo, but we
: > were not expected to believe in any of the doctrinal content (in
fact, I
: > half suspected she'd rather we didn't, but that's beside the
point.) She
: > would be happy to give background information if asked, but our
grade would
: > be solely on our commitment to the group, our development as
singers and our
: > aptitude in sightreading and musicology. As long as that is the
position of
: > your son's director, there really is no need to worry or complain.

Stated intent...sure...*****. It's wrong, it's wrong, it's wrong.
Your ex-nun knew what sort of scam she was running. Xians love
pushing their religion down everyone else's throats, and sack sacks
like you help them.

: > Also, you might want to check your copy of the US Constitution
(assuming you
: > live in the US.) The Third Amendment reads in full, "No soldier
shall, in
: > time of peace be quartered in any house, without the consent of
the owner,
: > nor in time of war, but in a manner to be prescribed by law." I
don't think
: > that right is being violated here :-)
:
:
: Hmmm. I certainly can see both points of view here -- if the kids
came
: home to the average parent in this country and mentioned they were
: being taught to chante "Hare Krishna Hare Krisna Hare Rama...",
: there would be hell to pay.
:
: Nonetheless, Greg is most certainly right that there is a large body
: comprisihg our very highest musical heritage that was written in the
service
: of Christianity.
:
: I can only offer the example of celebrated atheist and cell
biologist
: Ursula Goodenough who attends church every Sunday for the pure joy
: of being able to sing in the choir, finds herself utterly inspired
: by the music she sings -- and doesn't buy one word of the content.

The problem here, is that several of you people are saying, "it
doesn't bother me, so it shouldn't bother you" - totally ignoring the
fact that it is just plain fucking WRONG. Not to mention the fact
that the KID is complaining about it - don't care about his feelings,
do you?

I sure hope you guys aren't claiming to be real atheists, who care
about how others treat you because of it.