| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"LP" |
| Date: |
23 Dec 2003 05:29:12 PM |
| Object: |
"MY SON DIED FOR YOU! DON'T YOU CARE?" |
I just received this pathetically simple minded story from the wife of
someone I used to work with. I sent her some Ingersoll essays in
response, but if anyone has any other good responses, I will pass them
on.
And Yes, she knows I am an atheist.
------------ quoted text follows ----------------------------
READ IT ALL! I DARE YOU! THINK ABOUT IT. PASS IT ON TO YOUR FRIENDS
AND FAMILY. EVERYONE NEEDS TO HEAR THIS MESSAGE! LOVE GAYLE
THIS IS THE BEST EMAIL I'VE EVER READ
It's a Wednesday night and you are at a church prayer meeting when
somebody runs in from the parking lot yelling, "Turn on a radio, turn
on a radio!"
And while the church listens to a little transistor radio with a
microphone stuck up to it, the announcement is made: "Two women are
lying in a Long Island hospital dying from a 'mystery' flu." Within
hours it seems, this thing just sweeps across the country.
People are working around the clock trying to find an antidote.
Nothing is working! California, Oregon, Arizona, Florida,
Massachusetts.
It's as though it's just sweeping in from the borders.
And then, all of a sudden, the news comes out. The code has been
broken. A cure can be found. A vaccine can be made. It's going to take
the blood of somebody who hasn't been infected, and so, sure
enough,all through the Midwest, through all those channels of
emergency broadcasting,
everyone is asked to do one simple thing: Go to your downtown hospital
and have your blood type taken. That's all we ask of you. When you
hear the sirens go off in your neighborhood, please make your way
quickly, quietly, and safely to the hospitals.
Sure enough, when you and your family get down there late on that
Friday night, there is a long line, and they've got nurses and doctors
coming out and pricking fingers and taking blood and putting labels on
it.
Your wife and your kids are out there, and they take your blood type
and they say, "Wait here in the parking lot and if we call your name,
you can be dismissed and go home."
You stand around, scared, with your neighbors, wondering what in the
world is going on and if this is the end of the world.
Suddenly a young man comes running out of the hospital screaming. He's
yelling a name and waving a clipboard. What? He yells it again! And
your son tugs on your jacket and says, "Daddy, that's me."
Before you know it, they have grabbed your boy. Wait a minute!
Hold on! And they say, "It's okay, his blood is clean. His blood is
pure.
We want to make sure he doesn't have the disease. We think he has got
the right type." Five tense minutes later, out come the doctors and
nurses, crying and hugging one another .... some are even laughing.
It's the first time you have seen anybody laugh in a week, and an old
doctor walks up to you and says, "Thank you, sir. Your son's blood
type is perfect. It's clean, it is pure, and we can make the vaccine."
As the word begins to spread all across that parking lot full of
folks, people are screaming and praying and laughing and crying.
Then the gray-haired doctor pulls you and your wife aside and says,
"May we see you for moment? We didn't realize that the donor would be
a minor and we need ....... we need you to sign a consent form." You
begin to sign and then you see that the number of pints of blood to be
taken has been left blank.
"H-how many pints?", you ask.
And that is when the old doctor's smile fades and he says, "We had no
idea it would be little child. We weren't prepared. I'm sorry sir, we
need it all!"
"But but .. You don't understand."
"We are talking about the world here. Please sign. We need it all!"
"But can't you give him a transfusion?"
"If we had clean blood we would. Can you sign? Would you sign?"
In numb silence, you do.
Then they say, "Would you like to have a moment with him before we
begin?"
Can you walk back? Can you walk back to that room where he sits on a
table saying, "Daddy? Mommy? What's going on?" Can you take his hands
and say, "Son, your mommy and I love you, and we would never ever let
anything happen to you that didn't just have to be. Do you understand
that?"
And when that old doctor comes back in and says, "I'm sorry, we've GOT
to get started! People all over the world are dying.
Can you leave?"
Can you walk out while he is saying, "Daddy? Mommy? Daddy?
"Why, why have you forsaken me?"
And then next week, when they have the ceremony to honor your son some
folks sleep through it ... some folks don't even come because they go
to the lake or the seashore ... some folks come with a pretentious
smile and just "pretend" to care. Would you want to jump up and say,
"MY SON DIED FOR YOU! DON'T YOU CARE?"
Is that what GOD wants to say? "MY SON DIED FOR YOU. DON'T YOU KNOW
HOW MUCH I CARE?"
"FATHER, Seeing it from YOUR eyes breaks our hearts. Maybe now we can
begin to comprehend the great Love YOU have for us."
*You can now spread the GOSPEL . or just delete this email.
If you are not ashamed of GOD or what HE has done for you pass this
on.
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| User: "Dude...Wheres My Clayton?" |
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| Title: Re: "MY SON DIED FOR YOU! DON'T YOU CARE?" |
23 Dec 2003 06:17:52 PM |
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"LP" <whirl_pool@nospam.hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:2jjhuvg2ag22l653fibm9dpmbcdskovpvn@4ax.com...
I just received this pathetically simple minded story from the wife of
someone I used to work with. I sent her some Ingersoll essays in
response, but if anyone has any other good responses, I will pass them
on.
And Yes, she knows I am an atheist.
------------ quoted text follows ----------------------------
<snip drooling *****>
Who wrote that? A two year old?
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| User: "Mike Painter" |
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| Title: Re: "MY SON DIED FOR YOU! DON'T YOU CARE?" |
23 Dec 2003 08:02:37 PM |
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"LP" <whirl_pool@nospam.hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:2jjhuvg2ag22l653fibm9dpmbcdskovpvn@4ax.com...
And then, all of a sudden, the news comes out. The code has been
broken. A cure can be found. A vaccine can be made. It's going to take
the blood of somebody who hasn't been infected, and so, sure
enough,all through the Midwest, through all those channels of
emergency broadcasting,
I'd say that the doctor was part of some obscure sect and did not know much
about science.
Probably just wanted to watch the kid die since you can't make a vaccine out
of an un-infected persons blood.
vac·cine: A preparation of a weakened or killed pathogen, such as a
bacterium or virus, or of a portion of the pathogen's structure that upon
administration stimulates antibody production or cellular immunity against
the pathogen but is incapable of causing severe infection.
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| User: "Mark K. Bilbo" |
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| Title: Re: "MY SON DIED FOR YOU! DON'T YOU CARE?" |
23 Dec 2003 07:55:40 PM |
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And so upon Tue, 23 Dec 2003 17:29:12 -0600 didst LP speak thusly:
THIS IS THE BEST EMAIL I'VE EVER READ
This is the stupidest story I've ever read.
(And that's saying something!)
--
Mark K. Bilbo
"There is no system but GNU, and Linux is one of its kernels."
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| User: "Josef Balluch" |
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| Title: Re: "MY SON DIED FOR YOU! DON'T YOU CARE?" |
23 Dec 2003 07:56:07 PM |
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In a message sent 'round the world, LP poured fuel on the fire with the
following:
I just received this pathetically simple minded story from the wife of
someone I used to work with. I sent her some Ingersoll essays in
response, but if anyone has any other good responses, I will pass them
on.
And Yes, she knows I am an atheist.
[ snip story ]
Ask her why she left out the part about the kid being resurrected after
three days.
Regards,
Josef
The important thing is not to stop questioning.
-- Albert Einstein
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| User: "*nemo*" |
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| Title: Re: "MY SON DIED FOR YOU! DON'T YOU CARE?" |
23 Dec 2003 07:32:37 PM |
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In article <2jjhuvg2ag22l653fibm9dpmbcdskovpvn@4ax.com>,
LP <whirl_pool@nospam.hotmail.com> wrote:
*You can now spread the GOSPEL . or just delete this email.
I'm glad they provided an option. I choose (b).
--
Nemo - EAC Commissioner for Bible Belt Underwater Operations.
Atheist #1331 (the Palindrome of doom!)
BAAWA Knight! - One of those warm Southern Knights, y'all!
Charter member, SMASH!!
http://home.earthlink.net/~jehdjh/Relpg.html
Draco Dormiens Nunquam Titillandus
Quotemeister since March 2002
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| User: "Erica" |
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| Title: Re: "MY SON DIED FOR YOU! DON'T YOU CARE?" |
25 Dec 2003 01:50:06 AM |
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In article <2jjhuvg2ag22l653fibm9dpmbcdskovpvn@4ax.com>,
LP <whirl_pool@nospam.hotmail.com> wrote:
I just received this pathetically simple minded story from the wife of
someone I used to work with. I sent her some Ingersoll essays in
response, but if anyone has any other good responses, I will pass them
on.
And Yes, she knows I am an atheist.
Snippage for bandwidth.
Oye vey. That doesn't even work as an anology. That was just sick.
Erica
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| User: "quibbler" |
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| Title: Re: "YOUR SON DIED FOR NONSENSE! WE DON'T HAVE TO CARE." |
24 Dec 2003 10:56:11 AM |
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In article <2jjhuvg2ag22l653fibm9dpmbcdskovpvn@4ax.com>,
whirl_pool@nospam.hotmail.com says...
It's a Wednesday night and you are at a church prayer meeting when
somebody runs in from the parking lot yelling, "Turn on a radio, turn
on a radio!"
The radio? We all know that news travels faster on the internet :). I'm
assuming they picked this throw-back technology because they imagined that
it might be more robust. But television has had emergency broadcast drills
for years. Anyway, unless it's nationally syndicated, most stations will
only carry local info.
And while the church listens to a little transistor radio
I doubt that anyone uses any other kind of radio these days.
with a
microphone stuck up to it,
I suspect that this would create feedback.
the announcement is made: "Two women are
lying in a Long Island hospital dying from a 'mystery' flu."
Stop the presses. Two people are sick. Correction, "two americans". When
chinese people got SARS it was no big deal, but when "red-blooded
'Mericans" get the disease that's about the only time we can bring
ourselves to care.
Within
hours it seems, this thing just sweeps across the country.
You can't even fly all the way across the country on a jet in two hours,
much less have the disease incubate and manifest in this time.
People are working around the clock trying to find an antidote.
Ummm...this sounds like the plot of a marvel comic book. The best
"antidote" is to not get infected. This means not sitting around church
with lots of other people listening to a "transister radio".
Nothing is working!
What a surprise, given two whole hours of effort!
California, Oregon, Arizona, Florida,
Massachusetts.
It's as though it's just sweeping in from the borders.
Ah the veiled racism.
And then, all of a sudden, the news comes out. The code has been
broken. A cure can be found. A vaccine can be made.
A vaccine will only help people who have not already been infected.
It's going to take
the blood of somebody who hasn't been infected,
I doubt that they would need blood, but more likely antigens from the
plasma. Of course, this depends very much on blood type, as to whether
others can use it.
and so, sure
enough,all through the Midwest, through all those channels of
emergency broadcasting,
everyone is asked to do one simple thing: Go to your downtown hospital
and have your blood type taken.
First off, most people already know their blood type. If hospitals are
looking for particular things, like all AB negative people, then they can
comb through medical records. In any event, the risk of becoming infected
with this deadly plague is too great to justify going down to the hospital.
That's all we ask of you.
Yeah well that's no small risk to go down there and risk contracting the
illness.
When you
hear the sirens go off in your neighborhood, please make your way
quickly, quietly, and safely to the hospitals.
Sirens. How about just announcing it by zip code on the radio.
Sure enough, when you and your family get down there late on that
Friday night, there is a long line, and they've got nurses and doctors
coming out and pricking fingers and taking blood and putting labels on
it.
You don't need doctors to ***** your finger.
Your wife and your kids are out there, and they take your blood type
It's a waste of time, since most people could tell you their blood type.
and they say, "Wait here in the parking lot and if we call your name,
you can be dismissed and go home."
So they do want more than just a blood sample, contrary to the claim,
"That's all we ask of you".
You stand around, scared, with your neighbors, wondering what in the
world is going on and if this is the end of the world.
Suddenly a young man comes running out of the hospital screaming. He's
yelling a name and waving a clipboard.
This writer thinks that drama consists of yelling like a raving maniac
whenever one is excited.
What? He yells it again! And
your son tugs on your jacket and says, "Daddy, that's me."
Before you know it, they have grabbed your boy. Wait a minute!
Hold on! And they say, "It's okay, his blood is clean. His blood is
pure.
How about asking an intelligent question like, "what do you want to do with
my kid?"
As the word begins to spread all across that parking lot full of
folks, people are screaming and praying and laughing and crying.
Yep, they're praying afterwards, giving credit to their god for something
that modern medicine did.
And that is when the old doctor's smile fades and he says, "We had no
idea it would be little child. We weren't prepared. I'm sorry sir, we
need it all!"
It's very doubtful that they need whole blood as opposed to merely plasma.
They can pump a least a certain amount of purified water back in to make up
for extracted plasma.
"But but .. You don't understand."
"We are talking about the world here.
Actually the story said just the US. However, I understand that many
americans think that the USA is the whole world.
Please sign. We need it all!"
"But can't you give him a transfusion?"
"If we had clean blood we would. Can you sign? Would you sign?"
Only for a limited quantity of blood. Your kid already did more than his
share in this fictional scenario by helping to save some people. They'll
have to try to find other people with the same magical "blood type".
In numb silence, you do.
Then they say, "Would you like to have a moment with him before we
begin?"
Can you walk back? Can you walk back to that room where he sits on a
table saying, "Daddy? Mommy? What's going on?" Can you take his hands
and say, "Son, your mommy and I love you, and we would never ever let
anything happen to you that didn't just have to be. Do you understand
that?"
It depends on whether they just say the words or actually act as though
they love him.
And when that old doctor comes back in and says, "I'm sorry, we've GOT
to get started! People all over the world are dying.
So that means fewer people will need the vaccine :).
Can you leave?"
Not necessary. The parents could stay. Just sedate the kid.
Can you walk out while he is saying, "Daddy? Mommy? Daddy?
"Why, why have you forsaken me?"
I guess that's better than saying, "Father into your hands I commit my
spirit" or "It is finished".
And then next week, when they have the ceremony to honor your son some
folks sleep through it ... some folks don't even come because they go
to the lake or the seashore
So?
... some folks come with a pretentious
smile and just "pretend" to care.
How would you know that they are just "pretending"?
Would you want to jump up and say,
"MY SON DIED FOR YOU! DON'T YOU CARE?"
No, I would not. There's no need to worship the kid. For one thing, he
wasn't given a choice and for two, if it was the right thing to do then one
imagines that other like-minded people would behave similarly.
Is that what GOD wants to say?
It's hard to say. We first have to establish that he exists, before we can
wildly speculate about his motives and psychology.
"MY SON DIED FOR YOU. DON'T YOU KNOW
HOW MUCH I CARE?"
Sacrificing someone else doesn't necessarily show that "you care".
"FATHER, Seeing it from YOUR eyes
Now this person is claiming to have looked god right in the eyes?
breaks our hearts. Maybe now we can
begin to comprehend the great Love YOU have for us."
Yep and that would be no love whatsoever.
*You can now spread the GOSPEL . or just delete this email.
or report it as spam.
If you are not ashamed of GOD or what HE has done for you pass this
on.
Okay, then I guess I won't pass on this email because I am very ashamed of
the Hebrew and Xian god myths.
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| User: "William Klee" |
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| Title: Re: "MY SON DIED FOR YOU! DON'T YOU CARE?" |
27 Dec 2003 09:12:04 PM |
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In article <2jjhuvg2ag22l653fibm9dpmbcdskovpvn@4ax.com>, LP
<whirl_pool@nospam.hotmail.com> wrote:
I just received this pathetically simple minded story from the wife of
someone I used to work with. I sent her some Ingersoll essays in
response, but if anyone has any other good responses, I will pass them
on.
And Yes, she knows I am an atheist.
------------ quoted text follows ----------------------------
READ IT ALL! I DARE YOU! THINK ABOUT IT. PASS IT ON TO YOUR FRIENDS
AND FAMILY. EVERYONE NEEDS TO HEAR THIS MESSAGE! LOVE GAYLE
<snip>
I don't get it. Really, I don't. A child dying in a short, poorly
written piece of fiction is supposed to be a reason to decide to
believe in her favorite myth? And we're supposed to feel the same way?
I would ask her why she finds a poorly-written bit of fiction moving.
Couldn't she find something with at least a smidgen of congruency or
similarity with reality?
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| User: "LP" |
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| Title: Re: "MY SON DIED FOR YOU! DON'T YOU CARE?" |
28 Dec 2003 12:25:08 PM |
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On Sat, 27 Dec 2003 21:12:04 -0600, William Klee <fnord2k@yahoo.com>
wrote:
In article <2jjhuvg2ag22l653fibm9dpmbcdskovpvn@4ax.com>, LP
<whirl_pool@nospam.hotmail.com> wrote:
I just received this pathetically simple minded story from the wife of
someone I used to work with. I sent her some Ingersoll essays in
response, but if anyone has any other good responses, I will pass them
on.
And Yes, she knows I am an atheist.
------------ quoted text follows ----------------------------
READ IT ALL! I DARE YOU! THINK ABOUT IT. PASS IT ON TO YOUR FRIENDS
AND FAMILY. EVERYONE NEEDS TO HEAR THIS MESSAGE! LOVE GAYLE
<snip>
I don't get it. Really, I don't. A child dying in a short, poorly
written piece of fiction is supposed to be a reason to decide to
believe in her favorite myth? And we're supposed to feel the same way?
I would ask her why she finds a poorly-written bit of fiction moving.
Couldn't she find something with at least a smidgen of congruency or
similarity with reality?
I suspect she saw "Jesus" and "pass it on" in the subject line, and
she robotically clicked "forward" before even trying to decipher the
content of the message.
.
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| User: "ArWeGod" |
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| Title: Re: "MY SON DIED FOR YOU! DON'T YOU CARE?" |
29 Dec 2003 07:14:50 AM |
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I don't.
Is this a poll?
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| User: "Klowmhundur" |
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| Title: Re: "MY SON DIED FOR YOU! DON'T YOU CARE?" |
29 Dec 2003 02:47:02 PM |
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In article <eNVHb.3370$vI4.714@newssvr29.news.prodigy.com>,
"ArWeGod" <ArWeGod?@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
I don't.
Is this a poll?
Re: "MY SON DIED FOR YOU! DON'T YOU CARE?"
My thinking is as follows:
1) Who are you, Mr. Speaker? Can you prove your identity?
2) You claim you had a son. Can you in fact prove that he was your
offspring?
3) You allege that your son is dead. What evidence do you offer to
prove that (a) you had a son, and (b) he is now deceased?
4) You allege that your son died for me. What proof do you have to
support this claim? And how does your alleged son's apparent suicide
relate to me? Are you implying that I was somehow involved in, or
responsible for his demise? Do you have any evidence to support your
outrageous claim?
As you can see, ladies and gentlemen of the jury, this matter may
develop into something quite serious. But for lack of a genuine
claimant, the "speaker" himself, who makes such claims only through
intermediaries such as goat herders, shepherds, Internet posters, and
the like, I see no reason to even respond to the question of whether I
care about the alleged events, or not.
-Klowmhundur
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| User: "Adam Marczyk" |
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| Title: Re: "MY SON DIED FOR YOU! DON'T YOU CARE?" |
23 Dec 2003 08:56:15 PM |
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LP <whirl_pool@nospam.hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:2jjhuvg2ag22l653fibm9dpmbcdskovpvn@4ax.com...
I just received this pathetically simple minded story from the wife of
someone I used to work with. I sent her some Ingersoll essays in
response, but if anyone has any other good responses, I will pass them
on.
"Kissing Hank's *****" is always a good one. What we really need, though, is
a good short piece on the absurdity of an innocent person's suffering
somehow being able to repay the crimes of a guilty one.
[...]
Can you walk back? Can you walk back to that room where he sits on a
table saying, "Daddy? Mommy? What's going on?" Can you take his hands
and say, "Son, your mommy and I love you, and we would never ever let
anything happen to you that didn't just have to be. Do you understand
that?"
So Jesus didn't know what he was getting into? He didn't volunteer for the
mission? And an omnipotent deity just couldn't come up with another way, it
seems...
--
"I'm materialist | a.a. #2001
Call me a humanist | http://www.ebonmusings.org
I guess I'm full of doubt | e-mail: ebonmuse!hotmail.com
So I'll gladly have it out with you..." | ICQ: 8777843
--Bad Religion, "Materialist" | PGP Key ID: 0x5C66F737
----------------------------------------------------------------------
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| User: "Billy Goat" |
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| Title: Re: "MY SON DIED FOR YOU! DON'T YOU CARE?" |
25 Dec 2003 11:14:39 AM |
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"Adam Marczyk" <ebonmuse@deletethis.hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<jf7Gb.32610$Vg5.3835@news02.roc.ny>...
LP <whirl_pool@nospam.hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:2jjhuvg2ag22l653fibm9dpmbcdskovpvn@4ax.com...
I just received this pathetically simple minded story from the wife of
someone I used to work with. I sent her some Ingersoll essays in
response, but if anyone has any other good responses, I will pass them
on.
"Kissing Hank's *****" is always a good one. What we really need, though, is
a good short piece on the absurdity of an innocent person's suffering
somehow being able to repay the crimes of a guilty one.
I wrote a little something about this a year ago, but it probably
needs to be fleshed out into a full-fledged glurge:
Suppose a convicted child molester was sentenced to life in prison in
your town. Then someone stepped forward to take his place in jail, so
the child molester would be forgiven, suffer no further penalty, and
be permitted to roam freely through your town, among families full of
children. Would the legal authorities permit it? Would you stand for
it?
--Billy
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| User: "quibbler" |
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| Title: Re: "My grandfather died for the sins of your child molester :)" |
26 Dec 2003 11:08:56 AM |
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In article <6bd3c70a.0312250914.2ae33dcb@posting.google.com>, ericvonl@my-
deja.com says...
"Adam Marczyk" <ebonmuse@deletethis.hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<jf7Gb.32610$Vg5.3835@news02.roc.ny>...
LP <whirl_pool@nospam.hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:2jjhuvg2ag22l653fibm9dpmbcdskovpvn@4ax.com...
I just received this pathetically simple minded story from the wife of
someone I used to work with. I sent her some Ingersoll essays in
response, but if anyone has any other good responses, I will pass them
on.
"Kissing Hank's *****" is always a good one. What we really need, though, is
a good short piece on the absurdity of an innocent person's suffering
somehow being able to repay the crimes of a guilty one.
I wrote a little something about this a year ago, but it probably
needs to be fleshed out into a full-fledged glurge:
Suppose a convicted child molester was sentenced to life in prison in
your town. Then someone stepped forward to take his place in jail, so
the child molester would be forgiven, suffer no further penalty, and
be permitted to roam freely through your town, among families full of
children. Would the legal authorities permit it? Would you stand for
it?
More importantly, what if somebody stepped forward and told the authorities
that his great, great, great, great great, great... grandfather was
punished unjustly about 500 years ago and that his suffering should be
credited toward Michael Jack....erm... ;) I mean the child molester's
prison sentence. Add to this that the person making the claim couldn't even
prove that his ancestor really had ever been punished, but demanded that
people take his word for it without evidence and that anyone who refused to
take his word for it were EVIL.
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| User: "Kate " |
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| Title: Re: "My grandfather died for the sins of your child molester :)" |
26 Dec 2003 12:59:50 PM |
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On Fri, 26 Dec 2003 10:08:56 -0700, quibbler <quibbler247@yahoo.com>
wrote:
In article <6bd3c70a.0312250914.2ae33dcb@posting.google.com>, ericvonl@my-
deja.com says...
"Adam Marczyk" <ebonmuse@deletethis.hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<jf7Gb.32610$Vg5.3835@news02.roc.ny>...
LP <whirl_pool@nospam.hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:2jjhuvg2ag22l653fibm9dpmbcdskovpvn@4ax.com...
I just received this pathetically simple minded story from the wife of
someone I used to work with. I sent her some Ingersoll essays in
response, but if anyone has any other good responses, I will pass them
on.
"Kissing Hank's *****" is always a good one. What we really need, though, is
a good short piece on the absurdity of an innocent person's suffering
somehow being able to repay the crimes of a guilty one.
I wrote a little something about this a year ago, but it probably
needs to be fleshed out into a full-fledged glurge:
Suppose a convicted child molester was sentenced to life in prison in
your town. Then someone stepped forward to take his place in jail, so
the child molester would be forgiven, suffer no further penalty, and
be permitted to roam freely through your town, among families full of
children. Would the legal authorities permit it? Would you stand for
it?
Isn't that what Christians claim Jesus did?
Maybe you should tell them that he was bad for doing that.
More importantly, what if somebody stepped forward and told the authorities
that his great, great, great, great great, great... grandfather was
punished unjustly about 500 years ago and that his suffering should be
credited toward Michael Jack....erm... ;) I mean the child molester's
prison sentence. Add to this that the person making the claim couldn't even
prove that his ancestor really had ever been punished, but demanded that
people take his word for it without evidence and that anyone who refused to
take his word for it were EVIL.
.
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| User: "quibbler" |
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| Title: Re: "My grandfather died for the sins of your child molester :)" |
26 Dec 2003 01:57:31 PM |
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In article <400a8418.234772984@news-west.newscene.com>,
says...
On Fri, 26 Dec 2003 10:08:56 -0700, quibbler <quibbler247@yahoo.com>
wrote:
In article <6bd3c70a.0312250914.2ae33dcb@posting.google.com>, ericvonl@my-
deja.com says...
"Adam Marczyk" <ebonmuse@deletethis.hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<jf7Gb.32610$Vg5.3835@news02.roc.ny>...
LP <whirl_pool@nospam.hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:2jjhuvg2ag22l653fibm9dpmbcdskovpvn@4ax.com...
I just received this pathetically simple minded story from the wife of
someone I used to work with. I sent her some Ingersoll essays in
response, but if anyone has any other good responses, I will pass them
on.
"Kissing Hank's *****" is always a good one. What we really need, though, is
a good short piece on the absurdity of an innocent person's suffering
somehow being able to repay the crimes of a guilty one.
I wrote a little something about this a year ago, but it probably
needs to be fleshed out into a full-fledged glurge:
Suppose a convicted child molester was sentenced to life in prison in
your town. Then someone stepped forward to take his place in jail, so
the child molester would be forgiven, suffer no further penalty, and
be permitted to roam freely through your town, among families full of
children. Would the legal authorities permit it? Would you stand for
it?
Isn't that what Christians claim Jesus did?
In the rare moments when xians pretend to express their theology in any
semblance of a meaningful way, some of them make such claims, yes.
Maybe you should tell them that he was bad for doing that.
Bad Jesus...no camel pissed flavored falafel for you! ;)
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| User: "Kate " |
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| Title: Re: "My grandfather died for the sins of your child molester :)" |
26 Dec 2003 01:37:08 PM |
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On 26 Dec 2003 12:59:50 -0600, (Kate ) wrote:
On Fri, 26 Dec 2003 10:08:56 -0700, quibbler <quibbler247@yahoo.com>
wrote:
In article <6bd3c70a.0312250914.2ae33dcb@posting.google.com>, ericvonl@my-
deja.com says...
"Adam Marczyk" <ebonmuse@deletethis.hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<jf7Gb.32610$Vg5.3835@news02.roc.ny>...
LP <whirl_pool@nospam.hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:2jjhuvg2ag22l653fibm9dpmbcdskovpvn@4ax.com...
I just received this pathetically simple minded story from the wife of
someone I used to work with. I sent her some Ingersoll essays in
response, but if anyone has any other good responses, I will pass them
on.
"Kissing Hank's *****" is always a good one. What we really need, though, is
a good short piece on the absurdity of an innocent person's suffering
somehow being able to repay the crimes of a guilty one.
I wrote a little something about this a year ago, but it probably
needs to be fleshed out into a full-fledged glurge:
Suppose a convicted child molester was sentenced to life in prison in
your town. Then someone stepped forward to take his place in jail, so
the child molester would be forgiven, suffer no further penalty, and
be permitted to roam freely through your town, among families full of
children. Would the legal authorities permit it? Would you stand for
it?
Isn't that what Christians claim Jesus did?
Maybe you should tell them that he was bad for doing that.
LOL - sorry - too groggy this morning to really read your post.
I was talking to my husband about this - he used to be a
fundimentalist til he outgrew it at 16. He didn't think this was a
good analogy. I asked him what Jesus exactly did die for and he said
that Jesus died to give people an easy ticket to heaven and that the
sinners have to ask for fogiveness and stop sinning. So essentially
if you abuse kids all your life and sincerely ask for forgiveness at
the end, you get to go party for eternity with the very same children
you molested .
.
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| User: "quibbler" |
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| Title: Re: "My grandfather died for the sins of your child molester :)" |
26 Dec 2003 05:24:03 PM |
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In article <400b8b0a.236551406@news-west.newscene.com>,
says...
On 26 Dec 2003 12:59:50 -0600, (Kate ) wrote:
On Fri, 26 Dec 2003 10:08:56 -0700, quibbler <quibbler247@yahoo.com>
wrote:
In article <6bd3c70a.0312250914.2ae33dcb@posting.google.com>, ericvonl@my-
deja.com says...
"Adam Marczyk" <ebonmuse@deletethis.hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<jf7Gb.32610$Vg5.3835@news02.roc.ny>...
LP <whirl_pool@nospam.hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:2jjhuvg2ag22l653fibm9dpmbcdskovpvn@4ax.com...
I just received this pathetically simple minded story from the wife of
someone I used to work with. I sent her some Ingersoll essays in
response, but if anyone has any other good responses, I will pass them
on.
"Kissing Hank's *****" is always a good one. What we really need, though, is
a good short piece on the absurdity of an innocent person's suffering
somehow being able to repay the crimes of a guilty one.
I wrote a little something about this a year ago, but it probably
needs to be fleshed out into a full-fledged glurge:
Suppose a convicted child molester was sentenced to life in prison in
your town. Then someone stepped forward to take his place in jail, so
the child molester would be forgiven, suffer no further penalty, and
be permitted to roam freely through your town, among families full of
children. Would the legal authorities permit it? Would you stand for
it?
Isn't that what Christians claim Jesus did?
Maybe you should tell them that he was bad for doing that.
LOL - sorry - too groggy this morning to really read your post.
Doesn't bother me.
I was talking to my husband about this - he used to be a
fundimentalist til he outgrew it at 16.
It was a phase I passed through around age 14-15 too :)
He didn't think this was a
good analogy.
Analogies are seldom perfect.
I asked him what Jesus exactly did die for and he said
that Jesus died to give people an easy ticket to heaven and that the
sinners have to ask for fogiveness and stop sinning.
It still doesn't seem that dying was necessary. He could have given them
and easy ticket and told them they need to ask for forgiveness, etc without
all the blood and gore.
So essentially
if you abuse kids all your life and sincerely ask for forgiveness at
the end, you get to go party for eternity with the very same children
you molested .
Yep and of course this has jack spit to do with any cruci-fiction.
.
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| User: "Kate " |
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| Title: Re: "My grandfather died for the sins of your child molester :)" |
26 Dec 2003 08:24:04 PM |
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On Fri, 26 Dec 2003 16:24:03 -0700, quibbler <quibbler247@yahoo.com>
wrote:
In article <400b8b0a.236551406@news-west.newscene.com>,
says...
On 26 Dec 2003 12:59:50 -0600, (Kate ) wrote:
On Fri, 26 Dec 2003 10:08:56 -0700, quibbler <quibbler247@yahoo.com>
wrote:
In article <6bd3c70a.0312250914.2ae33dcb@posting.google.com>, ericvonl@my-
deja.com says...
"Adam Marczyk" <ebonmuse@deletethis.hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<jf7Gb.32610$Vg5.3835@news02.roc.ny>...
LP <whirl_pool@nospam.hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:2jjhuvg2ag22l653fibm9dpmbcdskovpvn@4ax.com...
I just received this pathetically simple minded story from the wife of
someone I used to work with. I sent her some Ingersoll essays in
response, but if anyone has any other good responses, I will pass them
on.
"Kissing Hank's *****" is always a good one. What we really need, though, is
a good short piece on the absurdity of an innocent person's suffering
somehow being able to repay the crimes of a guilty one.
I wrote a little something about this a year ago, but it probably
needs to be fleshed out into a full-fledged glurge:
Suppose a convicted child molester was sentenced to life in prison in
your town. Then someone stepped forward to take his place in jail, so
the child molester would be forgiven, suffer no further penalty, and
be permitted to roam freely through your town, among families full of
children. Would the legal authorities permit it? Would you stand for
it?
Isn't that what Christians claim Jesus did?
Maybe you should tell them that he was bad for doing that.
LOL - sorry - too groggy this morning to really read your post.
Doesn't bother me.
I was talking to my husband about this - he used to be a
fundimentalist til he outgrew it at 16.
It was a phase I passed through around age 14-15 too :)
He didn't think this was a
good analogy.
Analogies are seldom perfect.
I asked him what Jesus exactly did die for and he said
that Jesus died to give people an easy ticket to heaven and that the
sinners have to ask for fogiveness and stop sinning.
It still doesn't seem that dying was necessary. He could have given them
and easy ticket and told them they need to ask for forgiveness, etc without
all the blood and gore.
We both agree. I was curious if anyone else had a better idea just
why he supposedly had to die.
So essentially
if you abuse kids all your life and sincerely ask for forgiveness at
the end, you get to go party for eternity with the very same children
you molested .
Yep and of course this has jack spit to do with any cruci-fiction.
.
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| User: "Erica" |
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| Title: Re: "My grandfather died for the sins of your child molester :)" |
27 Dec 2003 12:44:42 AM |
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In article <400dec50.261453828@news-west.newscene.com>,
(Kate ) wrote:
On Fri, 26 Dec 2003 16:24:03 -0700, quibbler <quibbler247@yahoo.com>
wrote:
We both agree. I was curious if anyone else had a better idea just
why he supposedly had to die.
Just a vague one I'm a bit too tired (and lacking in OT reading) to
present properly, but here goes anyway.
I suggest it has something to do with the immediate audience. The Jews
would understand the symbolism of sacrifice, since that was a common
practice at the time -- different atonements requiring different
sacrifices etc. We're so far away from that culture, it doesn't have
the same richness of meaning for us that it would for them. I wish I had
a reliable outside source for understanding their culture better.
slight aside, somewhat related --
I do wonder as I read the Teeter book I got from the library, about a
critical historical approach to the Bible, how much paganism crept into
the writing of the NT after the Gentiles were, if you'll excuse the pun,
assimilated.
And I really like one quote from a Borg book I picked up a whole lot,
something like the Bible being the lens through which we see God. We
theists need to not mistake believing in the deity with believing in the
lens through which we see the diety, however dimly. It's called Reading
the Bible Again for the First Time: Taking the Bible Seriously But Not
Literally (or something like that.)
.
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| User: "quibbler" |
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| Title: Re: "My grandfather died for the sins of your child molester :)" |
27 Dec 2003 10:43:49 AM |
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In article <scribe53151nospam-A14078.00444127122003
@newshost1.news.tds.net>, says...
I suggest it has something to do with the immediate audience. The Jews
would understand the symbolism of sacrifice, since that was a common
practice at the time
Well I think that the authors of the gospels wanted to try to tap into the
sacrifice tradition of judaism, though they didn't do it very well.
-- different atonements requiring different
sacrifices etc. We're so far away from that culture, it doesn't have
the same richness of meaning for us that it would for them.
You're assuming that they understood the metaphor better than we do, but
(assuming that it happened at all) it's also quite possible that the
crucifixion is just "theological spin" on the death of their leader. They
perhaps wanted to believe that his death had more significance than it
really did.
I wish I had
a reliable outside source for understanding their culture better.
In the mean time, their story is far from one with universal appeal, since
they were so parochial in their writings.
slight aside, somewhat related --
I do wonder as I read the Teeter book I got from the library, about a
critical historical approach to the Bible, how much paganism crept into
the writing of the NT after the Gentiles were, if you'll excuse the pun,
assimilated.
Surely a lot of paganism was incorporated. But it's not clear if this made
things worse or perhaps better.
And I really like one quote from a Borg book I picked up a whole lot,
something like the Bible being the lens through which we see God. We
theists need to not mistake believing in the deity with believing in the
lens through which we see the diety,
For lots of people it's not a lens that reveals anything. That is not
necessarily any kind of failing on their part. I find modern philosophy a
provides far greater insight into important issues than anything I've ever
read in the bible.
.
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| User: "Harry Leopold" |
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| Title: Re: "My grandfather died for the sins of your child molester :)" |
28 Dec 2003 11:02:03 AM |
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On Sat, 27 Dec 2003 0:44:42 -0600, Erica wrote
(in message
<scribe53151nospam-A14078.00444127122003@newshost1.news.tds.net>):
In article <400dec50.261453828@news-west.newscene.com>,
cobalt@newscene.com (Kate ) wrote:
On Fri, 26 Dec 2003 16:24:03 -0700, quibbler <quibbler247@yahoo.com>
wrote:
We both agree. I was curious if anyone else had a better idea just
why he supposedly had to die.
Just a vague one I'm a bit too tired (and lacking in OT reading) to
present properly, but here goes anyway.
I suggest it has something to do with the immediate audience. The Jews
would understand the symbolism of sacrifice, since that was a common
practice at the time -- different atonements requiring different
sacrifices etc. We're so far away from that culture, it doesn't have
the same richness of meaning for us that it would for them. I wish I had
a reliable outside source for understanding their culture better.
I think you might want to check with an orthodox Rabbi about this, I
understand that human sacrifice would not in any way have been acceptable
2,000 years ago.
--
Harry F. Leopold
aa #2076
AA/Vet #4
The Prints of Darkness
"Nothing can stand up to atheistic critical examination. You guys are the
proctologists of Religion." - angelicusrex
.
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| User: "Erica" |
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| Title: Re: "My grandfather died for the sins of your child molester :)" |
28 Dec 2003 11:25:42 AM |
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In article <0001HW.BC1468AB000DA273F02845B0@news.central.cox.net>,
Harry Leopold <hleopold@cox.net> wrote:
On Sat, 27 Dec 2003 0:44:42 -0600, Erica wrote
(in message
<scribe53151nospam-A14078.00444127122003@newshost1.news.tds.net>):
In article <400dec50.261453828@news-west.newscene.com>,
cobalt@newscene.com (Kate ) wrote:
On Fri, 26 Dec 2003 16:24:03 -0700, quibbler <quibbler247@yahoo.com>
wrote:
We both agree. I was curious if anyone else had a better idea just
why he supposedly had to die.
Just a vague one I'm a bit too tired (and lacking in OT reading) to
present properly, but here goes anyway.
I suggest it has something to do with the immediate audience. The Jews
would understand the symbolism of sacrifice, since that was a common
practice at the time -- different atonements requiring different
sacrifices etc. We're so far away from that culture, it doesn't have
the same richness of meaning for us that it would for them. I wish I had
a reliable outside source for understanding their culture better.
I think you might want to check with an orthodox Rabbi about this, I
understand that human sacrifice would not in any way have been acceptable
2,000 years ago.
Well, I guess I was thinking of sacrifice in general as a concept. You
have to admit your average Gentile wouldn't have understood the
complicated system of sacrifice depending on what you were atoning for.
I know the Jews weren't using human sacrifice (Isaac not withstanding).
However, Jesus is referred to as the "Lamb of God," so a connection is
being made to common practices.
But you're right. I ain't jewish, so to some extent I'm talking out my
butt.
.
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| User: "Al Klein" |
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| Title: Re: "My grandfather died for the sins of your child molester :)" |
27 Dec 2003 01:29:48 AM |
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On 26 Dec 2003 20:24:04 -0600, (Kate ) posted to
alt.atheism:
We both agree. I was curious if anyone else had a better idea just
why he supposedly had to die.
No one has ever come up with a reasonable explanation.
--
"If knowledge can create problems, it is not through ignorance that we can
solve them."
-Isaac Asimov
&
There are three kinds of men:
The ones that learn by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence.
- (Will Rogers)
(random sig, produced by SigChanger)
rukbat at optonline dot net
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| User: "Al Klein" |
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| Title: Re: "MY SON DIED FOR YOU! DON'T YOU CARE?" |
24 Dec 2003 01:43:10 PM |
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On Wed, 24 Dec 2003 02:56:15 GMT, "Adam Marczyk"
<ebonmuse@deletethis.hotmail.com> posted in alt.atheism:
LP <whirl_pool@nospam.hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:2jjhuvg2ag22l653fibm9dpmbcdskovpvn@4ax.com...
I just received this pathetically simple minded story from the wife of
someone I used to work with. I sent her some Ingersoll essays in
response, but if anyone has any other good responses, I will pass them
on.
"Kissing Hank's *****" is always a good one.
For the search engine impaired, here's a nicely formatted pdf version:
http://www.jhuger.com/pamphlets/kha.pdf
--
"I can't activate two neurons simultaneously, and I vote"
- The theistic majority
(random sig, produced by SigChanger)
rukbat at optonline dot net
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| User: "AuntieLib" |
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| Title: Re: "MY SON DIED FOR YOU! DON'T YOU CARE?" |
24 Dec 2003 03:50:03 PM |
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LP wrote:
<snip>
Is that what GOD wants to say? "MY SON DIED FOR YOU. DON'T YOU KNOW
HOW MUCH I CARE?"
This is the stupidest part of this whole Jesus, Son of God, myth.
"God" supposedly created everything that exists, including every
single person who has ever lived. Why am I supposed to feel
especially bad that this "God" calls one particular person "son" and
loves this one particular person more than the others and feels more
pain at the "death" of this one particular person than he does at the
deaths of the billions of his *other* sons and daughters who have died
in much more horrible (and self-sacrificing) ways since we first
inhabited this planet?
Because it's a fable made up by ignorant *men* to get other men (women
didn't count) to bond emotionally with this "God" and the story of his
"son" since a son is the thing these men would've prized most among
all other treasures on earth. They created their "God" in their own
image.
(P.S. I'm assuming you didn't actually pass it on. We atheists
aren't the ones who should feel "shame" here.)
elizabeth
aa#2098
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
"The easy confidence with which I know another man's religion
is folly teaches me to suspect that my own is also."
Mark Twain
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
.
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| User: "Carl Kaufmann" |
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| Title: Re: "MY SON DIED FOR YOU! DON'T YOU CARE?" |
23 Dec 2003 08:35:37 PM |
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LP wrote:
I just received this pathetically simple minded story from the wife of
someone I used to work with. I sent her some Ingersoll essays in
response, but if anyone has any other good responses, I will pass them
on.
And Yes, she knows I am an atheist.
------------ quoted text follows ----------------------------
READ IT ALL! I DARE YOU! THINK ABOUT IT. PASS IT ON TO YOUR FRIENDS
AND FAMILY. EVERYONE NEEDS TO HEAR THIS MESSAGE! LOVE GAYLE
THIS IS THE BEST EMAIL I'VE EVER READ
It's a Wednesday night and you are at a church prayer meeting when
somebody runs in from the parking lot yelling, "Turn on a radio, turn
on a radio!"
And while the church listens to a little transistor radio with a
microphone stuck up to it, the announcement is made: "Two women are
lying in a Long Island hospital dying from a 'mystery' flu." Within
hours it seems, this thing just sweeps across the country.
People are working around the clock trying to find an antidote.
Nothing is working! California, Oregon, Arizona, Florida,
Massachusetts.
It's as though it's just sweeping in from the borders.
And then, all of a sudden, the news comes out. The code has been
broken. A cure can be found. A vaccine can be made. It's going to take
the blood of somebody who hasn't been infected, and so, sure
enough,all through the Midwest, through all those channels of
emergency broadcasting,
everyone is asked to do one simple thing: Go to your downtown hospital
and have your blood type taken. That's all we ask of you. When you
hear the sirens go off in your neighborhood, please make your way
quickly, quietly, and safely to the hospitals.
Sure enough, when you and your family get down there late on that
Friday night, there is a long line, and they've got nurses and doctors
coming out and pricking fingers and taking blood and putting labels on
it.
Your wife and your kids are out there, and they take your blood type
and they say, "Wait here in the parking lot and if we call your name,
you can be dismissed and go home."
You stand around, scared, with your neighbors, wondering what in the
world is going on and if this is the end of the world.
Suddenly a young man comes running out of the hospital screaming. He's
yelling a name and waving a clipboard. What? He yells it again! And
your son tugs on your jacket and says, "Daddy, that's me."
Before you know it, they have grabbed your boy. Wait a minute!
Hold on! And they say, "It's okay, his blood is clean. His blood is
pure.
We want to make sure he doesn't have the disease. We think he has got
the right type." Five tense minutes later, out come the doctors and
nurses, crying and hugging one another .... some are even laughing.
It's the first time you have seen anybody laugh in a week, and an old
doctor walks up to you and says, "Thank you, sir. Your son's blood
type is perfect. It's clean, it is pure, and we can make the vaccine."
As the word begins to spread all across that parking lot full of
folks, people are screaming and praying and laughing and crying.
Then the gray-haired doctor pulls you and your wife aside and says,
"May we see you for moment? We didn't realize that the donor would be
a minor and we need ....... we need you to sign a consent form." You
begin to sign and then you see that the number of pints of blood to be
taken has been left blank.
"H-how many pints?", you ask.
And that is when the old doctor's smile fades and he says, "We had no
idea it would be little child. We weren't prepared. I'm sorry sir, we
need it all!"
"But but .. You don't understand."
"We are talking about the world here. Please sign. We need it all!"
"But can't you give him a transfusion?"
"If we had clean blood we would. Can you sign? Would you sign?"
In numb silence, you do.
Then they say, "Would you like to have a moment with him before we
begin?"
Can you walk back? Can you walk back to that room where he sits on a
table saying, "Daddy? Mommy? What's going on?" Can you take his hands
and say, "Son, your mommy and I love you, and we would never ever let
anything happen to you that didn't just have to be. Do you understand
that?"
And when that old doctor comes back in and says, "I'm sorry, we've GOT
to get started! People all over the world are dying.
Can you leave?"
Can you walk out while he is saying, "Daddy? Mommy? Daddy?
"Why, why have you forsaken me?"
And then next week, when they have the ceremony to honor your son some
folks sleep through it ... some folks don't even come because they go
to the lake or the seashore ... some folks come with a pretentious
smile and just "pretend" to care. Would you want to jump up and say,
"MY SON DIED FOR YOU! DON'T YOU CARE?"
Is that what GOD wants to say? "MY SON DIED FOR YOU. DON'T YOU KNOW
HOW MUCH I CARE?"
"FATHER, Seeing it from YOUR eyes breaks our hearts. Maybe now we can
begin to comprehend the great Love YOU have for us."
*You can now spread the GOSPEL . or just delete this email.
If you are not ashamed of GOD or what HE has done for you pass this
on.
First: the science is all wrong.
Second: Is my son coming back from the dead in three days? If yes,
then what's the big deal? God didn't sacrifice ***** ... was probably
even glad to have the whiny little ***** out of his hair for a few
days.
--
EAC Liar, Damned Liar, and Statistician
A.A. #1966
"Statistical thinking will one day be as necessary for efficient
citizenship as the ability to read and write." - H.G. Wells
.
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| User: "Richard Smol" |
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| Title: Re: "MY SON DIED FOR YOU! DON'T YOU CARE?" |
24 Dec 2003 11:58:28 AM |
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LP wrote:
Is that what GOD wants to say? "MY SON DIED FOR YOU. DON'T YOU KNOW
HOW MUCH I CARE?"
Actually, according to the myth he came back to life...
so there was no sacrifice anyway.
RS
.
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| User: "Adam Marczyk" |
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| Title: Re: "MY SON DIED FOR YOU! DON'T YOU CARE?" |
24 Dec 2003 03:17:08 PM |
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Richard Smol <jazzcat_nospam_@dds.nl> wrote in message
news:8tkGb.9571$Jh.2118@amsnews03.chello.com...
LP wrote:
Is that what GOD wants to say? "MY SON DIED FOR YOU. DON'T YOU KNOW
HOW MUCH I CARE?"
Actually, according to the myth he came back to life...
so there was no sacrifice anyway.
At best, Jesus was temporarily inconvenienced for our sins.
--
"We have loved the stars too fondly | a.a. #2001
to be fearful of the night." | http://www.ebonmusings.org
--Tombstone epitaph of | e-mail: ebonmuse!hotmail.com
two amateur astronomers, | ICQ: 8777843
quoted in Carl Sagan's _Cosmos_ | PGP Key ID: 0x5C66F737
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| User: "Mark K. Bilbo" |
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| Title: Re: "MY SON DIED FOR YOU! DON'T YOU CARE?" |
24 Dec 2003 03:42:48 PM |
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And so upon Wed, 24 Dec 2003 21:17:08 +0000 didst Adam Marczyk speak
thusly:
Richard Smol <jazzcat_nospam_@dds.nl> wrote in message
news:8tkGb.9571$Jh.2118@amsnews03.chello.com...
LP wrote:
Is that what GOD wants to say? "MY SON DIED FOR YOU. DON'T YOU KNOW
HOW MUCH I CARE?"
Actually, according to the myth he came back to life...
so there was no sacrifice anyway.
At best, Jesus was temporarily inconvenienced for our sins.
I know!
Jesus *napped for our sins!
--
Mark K. Bilbo
"There is no system but GNU, and Linux is one of its kernels."
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