George Ricker wrote:

In article <1149260388.497533.312880@g10g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>,
"Jack" <cawoodm@gmail.com> wrote:

You asked which version I use: I mostly use the Holy Bible from the
Gideons and sometimes the Good News Bible depending on where I am. When
writing however, I find it convenient to use software which contains 18
versions of the Bible and 22 commentries & references.

Now, I am not an expert on the Bible, nor it's origins. All I can say
is that it is a remarkable book in itself. I read a lot and have many
favorite books but the Bible is special. I also used to think that it
was unecessarily vague and boring until I really started studying it.
Like many things, there is more than meets the eye. It's not something
that could have been invented by man.

I hope, in the course of time to be able to present more on this topic.
For now I am working on answering some fundamental objections to theism
on two fronts: weak and strong atheism.

Jack

Hi George

Now that's an argument which is worth investigating - is the Bible
truth? Is it inarticulate? My naive assumption when starting this post
was that most atheists were so-called "strong atheists" and had valid
reasons for rejecting God and the Bible. This would have been a great
basis for some discussion but we've got a mix of the strong and the
weak here which boggles the mind.

What I have decided to do is to attempt to answer both the strong and
the weak and am preparing some thoughts on this.

To answer your question: if the Bible were proved to be a lie tomorrow
I would indeed be shaken.

What would however remain are the experiences
I have of God and those told to me by fellow believers. When you
believe you experience a spiritual awakening which opens your eyes to
your world in a way which is indescribable unless you have experienced
it.

I therefore focus on the only objective evidence we have which is
the Bible.

You asked which version I use: I mostly use the Holy Bible from the
Gideons and sometimes the Good News Bible depending on where I am. When
writing however, I find it convenient to use software which contains 18
versions of the Bible and 22 commentries & references.

Now, I am not an expert on the Bible, nor it's origins. All I can say
is that it is a remarkable book in itself. I read a lot and have many
favorite books but the Bible is special. I also used to think that it
was unecessarily vague and boring until I really started studying it.
Like many things, there is more than meets the eye. It's not something
that could have been invented by man.

I hope, in the course of time to be able to present more on this topic.
For now I am working on answering some fundamental objections to theism
on two fronts: weak and strong atheism.

Jack

George Ricker wrote:

In article <1149260388.497533.312880@g10g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>,
"Jack" <cawoodm@gmail.com> wrote:

A being that sends souls to Hell to be tortured forever cannot
beconsidered "good" by any measure. Such a being would be pure Evil
itself.

If the Bible is True (and I believe this) then I must accept that this
will occur. I must accept that I cannot change this. The upside is that
there is salvation and that it is free: You believe you are saved.

The temptation is to jump the fence in this argument:
1) Assume God will send us to Hell (believing the Bible)
2) Assume Salvation is impossible (disbelieving the Bible)
3) Panic

If the Bible is a lie - you *may* have no worries. If it's true you're
best bet is to believe.

And what if the Bible is‹as most of the available evidence suggests‹a
collection of myths, fables and stories written by human beings in an
effort to explain themselves to themselves? What if the Bible is wholly
fiction with a patina of fact thrown in to suggest credibility? What if
the Bible's real value is as a repository of early ideas about gods and
men that help us to understand the evolution of our human socities?

A claim that the Bible is literally true simply can't be sustained by
anyone who approaches the matter with intellectual honesty. That doesn't
mean the books of the Bible don't contain anything of value. It does
mean that the notion it contains the *absolute* truth about human
existence as presented by some *absolute* being can only be regarded as
nonsense.

It's also more than a little self-serving to claim you have identified
the *truth* about either gods or men in a book that has lent itself to
all sorts of interpretations on both subjects throughout much of human
history. The messages found in the Bible depend just as much, it seems
to me, on what one is looking for as on what is written there.

And we haven't even talked about which version of the Bible you're
referencing.

The Bible is a collection of stories, mythic histories, some poetry and
some letters. It contains both truths and lies. What it doesn't contain
is *The Truth.*

C'mon Jack. Do you really think a supreme being worthy of the name would
have been unable to communicate articulately? Do you really think it
would have left itself so open to misinterpretation that wars would be
fought over variant readings of the writings ascribed to it? Do you
really think a "God" who was moral and good could send the overwhelming
majority of humankind to spend eternity in everlasting torment because
they rejected such a flawed product?

Do you? Really?

--
George Ricker

Hi George

Now that's an argument which is worth investigating - is the Bible
truth? Is it inarticulate? My naive assumption when starting this post
was that most atheists were so-called "strong atheists" and had valid
reasons for rejecting God and the Bible. This would have been a great
basis for some discussion but we've got a mix of the strong and the
weak here which boggles the mind.

What I have decided to do is to attempt to answer both the strong and
the weak and am preparing some thoughts on this.

To answer your question: if the Bible were proved to be a lie tomorrow
I would indeed be shaken. What would however remain are the experiences
I have of God and those told to me by fellow believers. When you
believe you experience a spiritual awakening which opens your eyes to
your world in a way which is indescribable unless you have experienced
it. I therefore focus on the only objective evidence we have which is
the Bible

You asked which version I use: I mostly use the Holy Bible from the
Gideons and sometimes the Good News Bible depending on where I am. When
writing however, I find it convenient to use software which contains 18
versions of the Bible and 22 commentries & references.

Now, I am not an expert on the Bible, nor it's origins. All I can say
is that it is a remarkable book in itself. I read a lot and have many
favorite books but the Bible is special. I also used to think that it
was unecessarily vague and boring until I really started studying it.
Like many things, there is more than meets the eye. It's not something
that could have been invented by man.

I hope, in the course of time to be able to present more on this topic.
For now I am working on answering some fundamental objections to theism
on two fronts: weak and strong atheism.

Jack

Now that's an argument which is worth investigating - is the Bible
truth? Is it inarticulate? My naive assumption when starting this post
was that most atheists were so-called "strong atheists" and had valid
reasons for rejecting God and the Bible. This would have been a great
basis for some discussion but we've got a mix of the strong and the
weak here which boggles the mind.

What I have decided to do is to attempt to answer both the strong and
the weak and am preparing some thoughts on this.

To answer your question: if the Bible were proved to be a lie tomorrow
I would indeed be shaken.

What would however remain are the experiences
I have of God and those told to me by fellow believers.

When you
believe you experience a spiritual awakening which opens your eyes to
your world in a way which is indescribable unless you have experienced
it.

I therefore focus on the only objective evidence we have which is
the Bible.

You asked which version I use: I mostly use the Holy Bible from the
Gideons and sometimes the Good News Bible depending on where I am. When
writing however, I find it convenient to use software which contains 18
versions of the Bible and 22 commentries & references.

Now, I am not an expert on the Bible, nor it's origins.

All I can say
is that it is a remarkable book in itself.

I read a lot and have many
favorite books but the Bible is special. I also used to think that it
was unecessarily vague and boring until I really started studying it.
Like many things, there is more than meets the eye. It's not something
that could have been invented by man.

I hope, in the course of time to be able to present more on this topic.
For now I am working on answering some fundamental objections to theism
on two fronts: weak and strong atheism.

George Ricker wrote:

In article <1149260388.497533.312880@g10g2000cwb.googlegroups.com>,
"Jack" <cawoodm@gmail.com> wrote:

A being that sends souls to Hell to be tortured forever cannot
beconsidered "good" by any measure. Such a being would be pure Evil
itself.

If the Bible is True (and I believe this) then I must accept that this
will occur. I must accept that I cannot change this. The upside is that
there is salvation and that it is free: You believe you are saved.

The temptation is to jump the fence in this argument:
1) Assume God will send us to Hell (believing the Bible)
2) Assume Salvation is impossible (disbelieving the Bible)
3) Panic

If the Bible is a lie - you *may* have no worries. If it's true you're
best bet is to believe.

And what if the Bible is‹as most of the available evidence suggests‹a
collection of myths, fables and stories written by human beings in an
effort to explain themselves to themselves? What if the Bible is wholly
fiction with a patina of fact thrown in to suggest credibility? What if
the Bible's real value is as a repository of early ideas about gods and
men that help us to understand the evolution of our human socities?

A claim that the Bible is literally true simply can't be sustained by
anyone who approaches the matter with intellectual honesty. That doesn't
mean the books of the Bible don't contain anything of value. It does
mean that the notion it contains the *absolute* truth about human
existence as presented by some *absolute* being can only be regarded as
nonsense.

It's also more than a little self-serving to claim you have identified
the *truth* about either gods or men in a book that has lent itself to
all sorts of interpretations on both subjects throughout much of human
history. The messages found in the Bible depend just as much, it seems
to me, on what one is looking for as on what is written there.

And we haven't even talked about which version of the Bible you're
referencing.

The Bible is a collection of stories, mythic histories, some poetry and
some letters. It contains both truths and lies. What it doesn't contain
is *The Truth.*

C'mon Jack. Do you really think a supreme being worthy of the name would
have been unable to communicate articulately? Do you really think it
would have left itself so open to misinterpretation that wars would be
fought over variant readings of the writings ascribed to it? Do you
really think a "God" who was moral and good could send the overwhelming
majority of humankind to spend eternity in everlasting torment because
they rejected such a flawed product?

Do you? Really?

Well, I for one don't. I think it is clear that much of the Old
Testament is mythological as a historical account, quite primitive in
its ethics, and not particularly impressive in its symbolism and wisdom
- even though some bits and pieces are of course inspired writing. I
personally find the gospels and some letters of the NT to be another
category altogether (even though many of the historical details of
Jesus' ministry may be mythological in part). Still I consider that
the gospels, even though they are the work of imperfect writers using
older material and have been edited and re-edited by various hands,
preserve Jesus' teaching and character almost miraculously well.
Moreover I consider the ethics described there to be one of the most
brightly beautiful ideas ever put in writing. Still, what I find rather
strange is that so many Christians spend inordinate amounts of time and
energy studying the Bible when Christ in the gospels not once asked his
disciples to do that, while not being exactly timid in the breadth and
depth of things he did ask them to do. I think it's a sign of
spiritual weakness and of trying to hold on this one objective and
steady thing - fearing to directly trust in the present and living
spirit of Christ.

Now even though I agree that most of the Bible is mythological and
primitive writing, I would like to clarify something that may be of use
to atheists also. How people personally experience some activity (be it
reading the Old Testament or, say, listening to jazz) is something
private and known only to themselves. I personally find most of jazz
jarring and find most of the OT jarring too. But this does not mean
that the experiences of those people who love to read the OT or who
love to listen to jazz are illusory, delusional, wrong, harmful, or
whatever. If some Christians get meaning and joy out of studying the OT
more power to them - even though I would ask them to consider the
living presence of Christ as the best and most direct source of truth,
as well as that what Christ asks us to do is much more active, and
beautiful, and creative, and meaningful for our salvation - than
reading and re-reading old texts.

William T. Goat wrote:

Jack wrote:

A being that sends souls to Hell to be tortured forever cannot
beconsidered "good" by any measure. Such a being would be pure Evil
itself.

If the Bible is True (and I believe this) then I must accept that this
will occur. I must accept that I cannot change this. The upside is that
there is salvation and that it is free: You believe you are saved.

The temptation is to jump the fence in this argument:
1) Assume God will send us to Hell (believing the Bible)
2) Assume Salvation is impossible (disbelieving the Bible)
3) Panic

Actually, the Bible does say (Romans 9:15-24) that God singles out
certain people for damnation at His whim.

Lemme see that Bible son...you'd better get your money back: I've got
18 versions of the bible which all say that God will be *merciful* to
those he chooses.

William T. Goat wrote:

Jack wrote:

A being that sends souls to Hell to be tortured forever cannot
beconsidered "good" by any measure. Such a being would be pure Evil
itself.

If the Bible is True (and I believe this) then I must accept that this
will occur. I must accept that I cannot change this. The upside is that
there is salvation and that it is free: You believe you are saved.

The temptation is to jump the fence in this argument:
1) Assume God will send us to Hell (believing the Bible)
2) Assume Salvation is impossible (disbelieving the Bible)
3) Panic

Actually, the Bible does say (Romans 9:15-24) that God singles out
certain people for damnation at His whim.

Lemme see that Bible son...you'd better get your money back: I've got
18 versions of the bible which all say that God will be *merciful* to
those he chooses.

Romans 9:15
For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and
I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

He (Isaiah 6:10, Luke 8:10)
deliberately prevents people from believing in Him, and makes people
sin (Isaiah 19:14), because He wants them in Hell. So, Salvation might
very well be impossible for some.

No, God is just and judges people on what they have chosen.

When he
hardened Pharaoh's heart (to quote a classic example) it was God's
doing. The mistake you (or your source) make is taking different quotes
and putting them together to fit your needs.

If the Bible is a lie - you *may* have no worries. If it's true you're
best bet is to believe.

All right then. How do you suggest I should accomplish this? How can I
come to believe a Bible that looks so false? Can I try to force myself
to believe it, or would that be dishonest?

You just need to search honestly for answers. It depends on your nature
what would be the best starting place. For me, it was "Mere
Christianity" by C.S. Lewis and not the Bible or a Church or preacher
that helped the most.

Dare to believe that Christianity has a bad rap
and that there is a Good God who is our hearts desire.

Talk to a
christian you know and trust and see if you really think they are
deluded.

Keep in mind that the Bible says that the sky is a solid dome with
windows that slide open to let the rain fall through. It also says that
dragons, unicorns, and satyrs are real.

I'm gonna need some quotes there Bill before I can answer that. Maybe
you really need to get that Bible version you've got seen to.

William T. Goat wrote:

Jack wrote:

A being that sends souls to Hell to be tortured forever cannot
beconsidered "good" by any measure. Such a being would be pure Evil
itself.

If the Bible is True (and I believe this) then I must accept that this
will occur. I must accept that I cannot change this. The upside is that
there is salvation and that it is free: You believe you are saved.

The temptation is to jump the fence in this argument:
1) Assume God will send us to Hell (believing the Bible)
2) Assume Salvation is impossible (disbelieving the Bible)
3) Panic

Actually, the Bible does say (Romans 9:15-24) that God singles out
certain people for damnation at His whim.

Lemme see that Bible son...you'd better get your money back: I've got
18 versions of the bible which all say that God will be *merciful* to
those he chooses.

Romans 9:15
For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and
I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

He (Isaiah 6:10, Luke 8:10)
deliberately prevents people from believing in Him, and makes people
sin (Isaiah 19:14), because He wants them in Hell. So, Salvation might
very well be impossible for some.

No, God is just and judges people on what they have chosen. When he
hardened Pharaoh's heart (to quote a classic example) it was God's
doing. The mistake you (or your source) make is taking different quotes
and putting them together to fit your needs.

If the Bible is a lie - you *may* have no worries. If it's true you're
best bet is to believe.

All right then. How do you suggest I should accomplish this? How can I
come to believe a Bible that looks so false? Can I try to force myself
to believe it, or would that be dishonest?

You just need to search honestly for answers. It depends on your nature
what would be the best starting place. For me, it was "Mere
Christianity" by C.S. Lewis and not the Bible or a Church or preacher
that helped the most. Dare to believe that Christianity has a bad rap
and that there is a Good God who is our hearts desire. Talk to a
christian you know and trust and see if you really think they are
deluded.

Keep in mind that the Bible says that the sky is a solid dome with
windows that slide open to let the rain fall through. It also says that
dragons, unicorns, and satyrs are real.

I'm gonna need some quotes there Bill before I can answer that. Maybe
you really need to get that Bible version you've got seen to.

--Billy

"If anyone comes to Me and does not hate his father and mother, wife
and children, brothers and sisters, yes, and his own life also, he
cannot be My disciple." --Luke 14:26