| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"Stephen Furley" |
| Date: |
26 Jan 2004 08:51:42 AM |
| Object: |
Near-death experience programme on BBC Radio 4 |
On the BBC news page today, 26-01-04
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/3429619.stm
There is a programme on Radio 4 at 20:00 this evening, I won't be able
to listen to it then, and it's too late to set up a recorder at home.
If anybody hears this I'd be interested to hear what they have to say.
The last programme about this, (on television), concluded that there
probably was something in the theory that it gave some vision of an
after-life, but there was no edidence to support it! I'd like to know
if the BBC can do any better.
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| User: "Geoff" |
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| Title: Re: Near-death experience programme on BBC Radio 4 |
26 Jan 2004 09:13:05 AM |
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"Stephen Furley" <furles@mail.croydon.ac.uk> wrote in message
news:cc9fa30.0401260651.67b13e1e@posting.google.com...
On the BBC news page today, 26-01-04
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/3429619.stm
There is a programme on Radio 4 at 20:00 this evening, I won't be able
to listen to it then, and it's too late to set up a recorder at home.
If anybody hears this I'd be interested to hear what they have to say.
The last programme about this, (on television), concluded that there
probably was something in the theory that it gave some vision of an
after-life, but there was no edidence to support it! I'd like to know
if the BBC can do any better.
Holy *****...a post that is somewhat relevant. Sure
sign of end times I say.
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| User: "underground like_d_tell" |
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| Title: Re: Near-death experience programme on BBC Radio 4 |
26 Jan 2004 10:15:04 AM |
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"Stephen Furley" <furles@mail.croydon.ac.uk> wrote in message
news:cc9fa30.0401260651.67b13e1e@posting.google.com...
On the BBC news page today, 26-01-04
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/3429619.stm
There is a programme on Radio 4 at 20:00 this evening, I won't be able
to listen to it then, and it's too late to set up a recorder at home.
If anybody hears this I'd be interested to hear what they have to say.
The last programme about this, (on television), concluded that there
probably was something in the theory that it gave some vision of an
after-life, but there was no edidence to support it! I'd like to know
if the BBC can do any better.
Most R4 programmes are achived on their web site for a week so anyone who
misses it might be able to play the programme again. Unfortunatly, last time
I looked, you needed Real Player installed - that's no-no for me because of
spy-ware and spamming. YMMV :)
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| User: "pan" |
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| Title: Re: Near-death experience programme on BBC Radio 4 |
26 Jan 2004 10:11:38 AM |
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On 26 Jan 2004 06:51:42 -0800, (Stephen
Furley) wrote:
On the BBC news page today, 26-01-04
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/3429619.stm
From this site:
"At Hammersmith Hospital and 12 other hospitals across the UK, symbols
will be placed in strategic places so that only those who have an OBE
will be able to see them...."
"...a similar but small scale study at Morriston Hospital, Swansea,
last year was inconclusive. Over a five-year period eight out of 39
cardiac arrest patients had a NDE and of those only two had an OBE.
Unfortunately, neither of them was in the right place to spot the
symbols"
How the heck do they suppose that "only" those having so-called OBE's
will see these symbols? And how do they know the "right place" to
place these symbols?
Nurse:
"Mister Henderson, we'll be taking you to surgery now. Oh...
and.. uhmm... If just by chance you die on the operating table
could you direct your soul to look into the locked cabinet along the
north wall?"
pan
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| User: "Bill, The Avender" |
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| Title: Re: Near-death experience programme on BBC Radio 4 |
26 Jan 2004 07:49:01 PM |
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In alt.atheism on Mon, 26 Jan 2004 08:11:38 -0800, pan
<pan@psnwREMOVE.com> wrote:
<snip>
How the heck do they suppose that "only" those having so-called
OBE's will see these symbols?
I would assume because they're in places where human eyes can't or
don't normally go. Not human _patient_ eyes, anyway.
And how do they know the "right place" to place these symbols?
The "right place" comment didn't regard where to _place_ the symbols,
it regarded where the OBE claimant needed to be in order to _see_
them. If the symbol was, for instance, just above the drop-down
ceiling tile, but the OBE experience took place down the hall or out
in the parking lot, they're not in the "right place" to see the symbol
even if the experience were legitimate.
Nurse:
"Mister Henderson, we'll be taking you to surgery now. Oh...
and.. uhmm... If just by chance you die on the operating table
could you direct your soul to look into the locked cabinet along the
north wall?"
LoL! :-) When you put it that way, I suppose I can see your point.
But there are places that are statistically more common for people to
report visiting in OBEs from the OR. Hovering above the bed, going
into the waiting room, floating through the ceiling and into the
sky... There are places where one could statistically put such
symbols and expect that, should any significant number of OBEs occur,
there would be a good chance of someone seeing them. On top of the
soda machine, perhaps, where only someone at ceiling level could see
it. Or any other place that's only visible from a high angle - not
too hard to rig up.
The point of doing such a thing is that there needs to be a verifiable
success but _once_ to give researchers something to sink their
analytical teeth into. It will need to happen more often than that to
pass muster, but once is always a most excellent starting point for
trying to figure out such specifics as how, when, where and why.
Particularly with regard to those individuals who claim it's both
common and easy or "obviously" true.
Of course, such has yet to happen. :-/
--
L8r,
Bill
/\~*`-\|~/.`\*=`~\/|.-`\=~`/\.|*-`\~*/.\|`=~`\-/.|=\`~*`\|/.-~\
"What I most admire about myself is my incurable narcissism."
/\~*`-\|~/.`\*=`~\/|.-`\=~`/\.|*-`\~*/.\|`=~`\-/.|=\`~*`\|/.-~\
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| User: "pan" |
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| Title: Re: Near-death experience programme on BBC Radio 4 |
27 Jan 2004 08:50:47 AM |
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On Tue, 27 Jan 2004 01:49:01 GMT, (Bill, The
Avender) wrote:
(snip)
The point of doing such a thing is that there needs to be a verifiable
success but _once_ to give researchers something to sink their
analytical teeth into. It will need to happen more often than that to
pass muster, but once is always a most excellent starting point for
trying to figure out such specifics as how, when, where and why.
Particularly with regard to those individuals who claim it's both
common and easy or "obviously" true.
Of course, such has yet to happen. :-/
What worries me is that this experiment doesn't sound as if it is very
well structured:
I've worked in hospitals for 15 years, and this experiment strikes me
as 'messy'.
(e.g. Can curious staff members easily find out what these
symbols are? Could the family and friends of the staff members then
know?)
Are these patients to be questioned initially by professional
researchers or by a hospital staff member?
It seems to me that it would almost always be the hospital staff who
discusses the NDE's with the patient, initially .
e.g.
Recovery room nurse:
"Mrs. Jenkens are you waking up? Your surgery is over and your
in the Recovery room now."
Mrs. Jenkens:
"Oh... I think I was having the strangest dream during the
surgery... I was sort of floating.
Recovery room nurse:
"Were you floating of over the operating table?!"
Mrs. Jenkins:
"Uh... maybe."
Recovery room nurse:
"Did you see any symbols?"
Mrs. Jenkins:
"Symbols?"
Recovery room nurse:
"You know... Like circles, squares, triangles, or wavy lines?"
........
;-/
If a patient is someone who craves attention, how hard would it be
for them to find out what these symbols are? (or at least what some of
them are) e.g. In a community with one hospital, they may have even
heard what some of these symbols are *before* they entered the
hospital.
Will researchers question all patients who were in cardiac
'arrest'? And *when* will they question these patients?
Often patients who are 'brought back to life' can't communicate for
days (or even weeks) afterwards, e.g. Because they're on a mechanical
respirator.
At what point do these researchers require that patients report
their NDE? (e.g. Is it okay if a patient doesn't tell of the NDE,
until after they go home?)
What I fear is that one of these hospitals might claim that they have
a "verifiable success", when in fact they don't due to poor control
over the experiment (e.g. The actual symbols can be discovered by
curious hospital staff and possibly by others.)
You stated that it will take more than one 'hit' to convince the
scientific community.
But,
Many people *very* *very* much want this to be true. There is really
only flimsy evidence to support the notion of NDEs & OBEs, but look
at all the press coverage and TV specials (etc.) it has had
dedicated to it.
Can you imagine what will happen if only one case is reported as
"verified".
If they plan on continuing these experiments,
I hope that they're done with very tight controls and that they're
very well structured (That's not the feeling I get when I've read
articles about these particular type of experiments.). If they
aren't, and these type of experiments continue, then eventually:
they'll probably get a false "hit".
pan
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| User: "Kevin Anthoney" |
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| Title: Re: Near-death experience programme on BBC Radio 4 |
26 Jan 2004 12:34:46 PM |
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Stephen Furley wrote:
On the BBC news page today, 26-01-04
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/3429619.stm
There is a programme on Radio 4 at 20:00 this evening, I won't be able
to listen to it then, and it's too late to set up a recorder at home.
If anybody hears this I'd be interested to hear what they have to say.
The last programme about this, (on television), concluded that there
probably was something in the theory that it gave some vision of an
after-life, but there was no edidence to support it! I'd like to know
if the BBC can do any better.
Haven't they pretty much solved this one?
http://www.nature.com/nsu/020916/020916-8.html
--
Kevin Anthoney
kanthoney[a]dsl.pipex.com
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