| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"Bob Dog" |
| Date: |
24 May 2004 10:31:19 AM |
| Object: |
News: "Surprise! Most say change the pledge" |
For once, something on-topic from me:
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/saturdayspin/173403_bqanswer15.html
Bob Dog
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Saturday, May 15, 2004
Surprise! Most say change the pledge
By DAVID HORSEY
SEATTLE POST-INTELLIGENCER EDITORIAL CARTOONIST
Somewhat to my surprise, most of those responding to this week's
Burning Question want "under God" taken out of the Pledge of
Allegiance.
Like Rep. Jim McDermitt, the majority said the pledge worked
perfectly well as an expression of national loyalty before it
was altered in the McCarthy era to include a religious reference
that discomfits a significant number of citizens.
Demurring from that view, several Christians insisted that to
leave out God is to leave out the true foundation of this
country. But, interestingly, not all believers felt that way.
Some Christians said they refuse to say the two words because
they consider it blasphemy to co-mingle their God with a
nationalistic pledge.
One religious man, Victor Koyano of Seattle, insisted that just
reciting those two words will do little good anyway "unless we
decide to believe God's actual laws on morality, not the
amendments of evil men."
The most provocative response I received was from someone named
Rex Curry who runs a Libertarian Web site where he warns that
the pledge is the spawn of a 19th Century socialist drive to get
free citizens to bow down before government. Curry correctly
notes that the creator of the Pledge of Allegiance, Francis
Bellamy, was a socialist and that the first generations of
American schoolchildren learned to recite the pledge with a
straight-armed salute much like that adopted by Mussolini and
Hitler.
Our little pledge is more controversial than I imagined.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: News: "Surprise! Most say change the pledge" |
24 May 2004 01:35:15 PM |
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On 24 May 2004 08:31:19 -0700, (Bob Dog) wrote:
For once, something on-topic from me:
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/saturdayspin/173403_bqanswer15.html
Bob Dog
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Saturday, May 15, 2004
Surprise! Most say change the pledge
By DAVID HORSEY
SEATTLE POST-INTELLIGENCER EDITORIAL CARTOONIST
Somewhat to my surprise, most of those responding to this week's
Burning Question want "under God" taken out of the Pledge of
Allegiance.
Like Rep. Jim McDermitt, the majority said the pledge worked
perfectly well as an expression of national loyalty before it
was altered in the McCarthy era to include a religious reference
that discomfits a significant number of citizens.
Demurring from that view, several Christians insisted that to
leave out God is to leave out the true foundation of this
country. But, interestingly, not all believers felt that way.
Some Christians said they refuse to say the two words because
they consider it blasphemy to co-mingle their God with a
nationalistic pledge.
One religious man, Victor Koyano of Seattle, insisted that just
reciting those two words will do little good anyway "unless we
decide to believe God's actual laws on morality, not the
amendments of evil men."
The most provocative response I received was from someone named
Rex Curry who runs a Libertarian Web site where he warns that
the pledge is the spawn of a 19th Century socialist drive to get
free citizens to bow down before government. Curry correctly
notes that the creator of the Pledge of Allegiance, Francis
Bellamy, was a socialist and that the first generations of
American schoolchildren learned to recite the pledge with a
straight-armed salute much like that adopted by Mussolini and
Hitler.
Our little pledge is more controversial than I imagined.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
I have read that Bellamy was a Baptist and considered but deliberately
left out the words "under God".
Also pointed out in this N.G, I think, is that the Jehovah's Witnesses
won a lawsuit (Supreme court?) in the late '40's (pre "under god")
giving them the right to NOT recite the pledge.
My multi-part question to those who insist we keep "under God" is:
WHY? Is your faith enhanced by having others required to say God when
they really wish to pledge to the nation , with freedom and justice
for all, not just you? Would your faith be hurt if the pledge was
restored to its original form? Does your faith REALLY need help from
the government?
If so, your God does not sound too reliable, or at least not as good
as you want Him to be.
drift
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| User: "DianaC" |
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| Title: Re: News: "Surprise! Most say change the pledge" |
24 May 2004 07:04:02 PM |
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<drift@lost.net> wrote in message
news:4cf4b0hi9eapqt4612428vegdko8hn4en0@4ax.com...
<snip to>
I have read that Bellamy was a Baptist and considered but deliberately
left out the words "under God".
Also pointed out in this N.G, I think, is that the Jehovah's Witnesses
won a lawsuit (Supreme court?) in the late '40's (pre "under god")
giving them the right to NOT recite the pledge.
My multi-part question to those who insist we keep "under God" is:
WHY? Is your faith enhanced by having others required to say God when
they really wish to pledge to the nation , with freedom and justice
for all, not just you? Would your faith be hurt if the pledge was
restored to its original form? Does your faith REALLY need help from
the government?
If so, your God does not sound too reliable, or at least not as good
as you want Him to be.
Actually, I would prefer to take the words out, and it has nothing
whatsoever to do with my religious beliefs. It has everything to do with the
fact that the original author of the pledge didn't put 'em there in the
first place.
I wouldn't want somebody messin' with MY deathless prose....
DianaC
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| User: "W. Syme" |
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| Title: Re: News: "Surprise! Most say change the pledge" |
24 May 2004 10:38:07 AM |
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On 24 May 2004 08:31:19 -0700, (Bob Dog) wrote:
Somewhat to my surprise, most of those responding to this week's
Burning Question want "under God" taken out of the Pledge of
Allegiance.
Means very little. Of course the people that want it taken out are the
ones that respond, they feel the strongest about the question.
I'm pretty sure there's a huge silent majority of xians that want it
in there.
/before responding, remember, I'm an atheist.
--
Prove all things; hold fast that which is good. (1 Thessalonians 5:21)
W. Syme (pseudonym), European, non-native English speaker, "soft" atheist.
Email will not be read.
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| User: "Lord Calvert" |
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| Title: Re: News: "Surprise! Most say change the pledge" |
24 May 2004 01:58:40 PM |
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Somewhat to my surprise, most of those responding to this week's
Burning Question want "under God" taken out of the Pledge of
Allegiance.
Means very little. Of course the people that want it taken out are the
ones that respond, they feel the strongest about the question.
I'm pretty sure there's a huge silent majority of xians that want it
in there.
/before responding, remember, I'm an atheist.
If they want it in there and want it to continue to have governmental sanction,
there is a method for doing so. It's called amending the Constitution. It would
require a constitutional amendment to repeal Article VI, as well as the 1st and
14th Amendments but it can be done. The procedure for doing so is explicitly
spelled out in Article V. Follow it.
Of course, one must truly wonder at the sincerity of the faith of people who
need government sanction to prop it up. Methinks its not their own faith
they're expressing but their incessant desire to compel the adherence of others
by force.
Rich Goranson, Amherst, NY, USA (aa#MCMXCIX, a-vet#1)
EAC Department of Applied Rattan Use
"Without faith we might relapse into scientific or rational thinking, which
leads by a slippery slope toward constitutional democracy." - Robert Anton
Wilson
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| User: "W. Syme" |
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| Title: Re: News: "Surprise! Most say change the pledge" |
24 May 2004 06:18:00 PM |
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On 24 May 2004 18:58:40 GMT, forlornh@aol.complicated (Lord Calvert)
wrote:
Of course, one must truly wonder at the sincerity of the faith of people who
need government sanction to prop it up. Methinks its not their own faith
they're expressing but their incessant desire to compel the adherence of others
by force.
Of course. But you can't call it that.
--
Prove all things; hold fast that which is good. (1 Thessalonians 5:21)
W. Syme (pseudonym), European, non-native English speaker, "soft" atheist.
Email will not be read.
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| User: "stoney" |
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| Title: Re: News: "Surprise! Most say change the pledge" |
28 May 2004 01:48:20 PM |
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On Mon, 24 May 2004 23:18:00 GMT, W. Syme
<Winston.Syme.superstitions@fastmail.fm>, Message ID:
<f38fcece21bfd6cc3949d46c09c0d777@news.1usenet.com> wrote in
alt.atheism;
On 24 May 2004 18:58:40 GMT, forlornh@aol.complicated (Lord Calvert)
wrote:
Of course, one must truly wonder at the sincerity of the faith of people who
need government sanction to prop it up. Methinks its not their own faith
they're expressing but their incessant desire to compel the adherence of others
by force.
Of course. But you can't call it that.
Sure you can. :)
Stoney
"Designated Rascal and Rapscallion
and
SCAMPERMEISTER!"
When in doubt, SCAMPER about!
When things are fair, SCAMPER everywhere!
When things are rough, can't SCAMPER enough!
/end humour alert
alt.atheism military veteran #11
{so much for the 'no atheists in foxholes' rubbish}
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| User: "Puck Greenman" |
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| Title: Re: News: "Surprise! Most say change the pledge" |
25 May 2004 03:10:48 PM |
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On Mon, 24 May 2004 15:38:07 GMT, W. Syme
<Winston.Syme.superstitions@fastmail.fm> wrote:
On 24 May 2004 08:31:19 -0700, (Bob Dog) wrote:
Somewhat to my surprise, most of those responding to this week's
Burning Question want "under God" taken out of the Pledge of
Allegiance.
Means very little. Of course the people that want it taken out are the
ones that respond, they feel the strongest about the question.
I'm pretty sure there's a huge silent majority of xians that want it
in there.
/before responding, remember, I'm an atheist.
The wants of "silent majorities", are of no interest to anyone.
Those who assert they speak for silent majorities, do no such thing.
If the "silent majority" wants something, then let it set aside its
silence, and speak; If it does not, then it only has it's self to
blame for going unheard.
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| User: "stoney" |
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| Title: Re: News: "Surprise! Most say change the pledge" |
15 Jun 2004 11:33:13 PM |
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On Mon, 24 May 2004 08:31:19 -0700, Bob Dog wrote in alt.atheism:
For once, something on-topic from me:
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/saturdayspin/173403_bqanswer15.html
Bob Dog
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Saturday, May 15, 2004
Surprise! Most say change the pledge
By DAVID HORSEY
SEATTLE POST-INTELLIGENCER EDITORIAL CARTOONIST
Somewhat to my surprise, most of those responding to this week's
Burning Question want "under God" taken out of the Pledge of
Allegiance.
Like Rep. Jim McDermitt, the majority said the pledge worked
perfectly well as an expression of national loyalty before it
was altered in the McCarthy era to include a religious reference
that discomfits a significant number of citizens.
Demurring from that view, several Christians insisted that to
leave out God is to leave out the true foundation of this
country. But, interestingly, not all believers felt that way.
Some Christians said they refuse to say the two words because
they consider it blasphemy to co-mingle their God with a
nationalistic pledge.
One religious man, Victor Koyano of Seattle, insisted that just
reciting those two words will do little good anyway "unless we
decide to believe God's actual laws on morality, not the
amendments of evil men."
The most provocative response I received was from someone named
Rex Curry who runs a Libertarian Web site where he warns that
the pledge is the spawn of a 19th Century socialist drive to get
free citizens to bow down before government. Curry correctly
notes that the creator of the Pledge of Allegiance, Francis
Bellamy, was a socialist and that the first generations of
American schoolchildren learned to recite the pledge with a
straight-armed salute much like that adopted by Mussolini and
Hitler.
Our little pledge is more controversial than I imagined.
Yes, and past SC decisions have indicated forced recital of the pledge, as
was also common in Nazi Germany, was illegal.
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| User: "Russell Stewart" |
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| Title: Re: News: "Surprise! Most say change the pledge" |
16 Jun 2004 08:13:30 PM |
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stoney wrote:
[quoting an article]
Demurring from that view, several Christians insisted that to
leave out God is to leave out the true foundation of this
country. But, interestingly, not all believers felt that way.
Some Christians said they refuse to say the two words because
they consider it blasphemy to co-mingle their God with a
nationalistic pledge.
A very interesting point, and one that I am surprised has not
come up more often. Perhaps we should hope for a Christian to
challenge the pledege before the SC on these grounds. Maybe then
more people will listen.
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