| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"Bill M" |
| Date: |
27 Aug 2006 10:49:48 AM |
| Object: |
NO EVIDENCE FOR GODS |
There is NO OBJECTIVE VERIFIABLE EVIDENCE that any real gods actually exist.
They are all based on man's unreliable and selfish opinions.
The god believers claim that god created the world and everything in it. He
is all loving, all caring and all powerful creator of man in his image.
Because the world is so magnificent and complex it had to have a creator. By
this same logic, god has to be even more powerful and complex and would have
to have a creator. Complexity in no way is proof or evidence of a god
creator it is only evidence of complexity.
Supposedly man after he dies lives on in gods eternal heaven in eternal
happiness.
If this is true, why did he create so much sin and punishment on Earth? Why
did he create Hell? Why not create a world with men that are motivated to be
all caring and loving beings, just like him, with no desire to be selfish,
greedy and mean?
Religious fanatics claim that man has chosen to be evil because of his 'free
will'. This is totally specious. 'Free will' does not imply or require the
existence of evil conduct.
free will n. 1. The ability or discretion to choose; free choice: chose to
remain behind of my own free will. 2. The power, attributed especially to
human beings, of making free choices that are unconstrained by external
circumstances or by an agency such as fate or divine will.
A good benevolent god could have created man as a loving caring creature
with free will but without any desire or ability to commit evil.
He already created other limitations on man's 'free will'.
He created hunger pains to force man to eat and drink? He created
suffocation panic to force man to breathe? And a powerful sex drive to force
man to procreate? (Frequently in excess of mans ability to feed and care for
his creations!)
Why create greed and selfishness which encourages man to steel, lie,
subjugate and even kill other men?
This is supposedly to keep man in line and force him to follow god's wishes
and commands. This is characteristic of a dictator and slave master not the
characteristics of a loving god.
Why does this all powerful creator, all loving and caring intelligent
designer, create Plagues, Tsunamis, Tornadoes, Volcanic Eruptions, Floods,
Wars, Earth Quakes, Cancers and hundreds of debilitating diseases and
serious body malfunctions? There are 12,000 known diseases that affect and
punish mankind indiscriminately. Why does he permit millions of both young
and old to starve to death or die of miserable diseases? Why punish millions
of INNOCENT CHILDREN in this horrible way?
There is a parasitic worm in West Africa that bores through the eyes of
children and causes total blindness for the rest of their lives. This is the
work of an all caring and loving god???
Why does this all powerful and caring god permit totally "innocent children"
to die at birth? Or worse, be born lacking eyesight, a fully developed
brain, deaf and dumb, missing limbs etc.? Why are some born idiots and
others with super intelligence? Why are some born into wealth and others
pauper poor? Why are his human creations designed to deteriorate into a
miserable and devastating old age regardless of their religious affiliation?
Why did this all powerful and loving creator create things like sharks,
jelly fish, octopus, lions, tigers, rhinoceros, Wolves, poisonous snakes,
stinging and poisonous insects, poisonous plants etc.? Why did this caring
benevolent god create animals (including man) that need to painfully kill
and eat other animals to survive?
World War I claimed 9,000,000 lives of people of many religious faiths.
World II indiscriminately claimed over 20,000,000 lives of people of all
ages and religious faiths, plus a vast destruction of property and more
millions maimed for life.
The recent Asian Tsunami has claimed the lives of 200,000 men, women and
children of all religious persuasions. Over 100,000 of these were totally
INNOCENT children!
There were three major epidemics of the Bubonic Plaque - in the 6th, 14th.
and 17th centuries. The death toll was over 137 million men, women and
totally innocent children.
The influenza of 1918-1919 killed at least 25 million men, women and
innocent children indiscriminately.
Diseases like malaria, AIDS, tuberculosis, etc. maim and kill millions
indiscriminately every year. More millions die of starvation and
malnutrition.
These indiscriminately afflicted the young and old, atheists and those of
all religious persuasions.
Meanwhile MAN, not god, has developed defenses and cures for hundreds of
serious diseases. Man has learned to create shelter, heat and cooling,
purify water, world wide electronic communications, power and transportation
systems including flying through the air.
Perhaps your loving and caring god is actually a cruel, heartless, mean and
torturing tyrant. If he treats us so cruelly during life, why do you think
he will let us enjoy peace and eternal happiness in his Heaven? And why does
he keep all this a secret by preventing communication with our dead parents,
siblings and friends?
There are thousands of religious and god beliefs but NO OJECTIVE VERIFIABLE
EVIDENCE for the actual existence of ANY gods. ALL god beliefs are based on
the 'opinions' of errant men.
If there is a god that created the Universe, he is obviously not an
all-caring and benevolent god. Nor is he an "Intelligent Designer". The
objective evidence is if there is a god creator, he has NO concern about the
welfare of the creatures on Earth.
The objective evidence is that no gods created man but quite the opposite;
that man created gods!
.
|
|
| User: "Debster" |
|
| Title: Re: NO EVIDENCE FOR GODS |
28 Aug 2006 07:16:13 PM |
|
|
The simple answer......God created man to fellowship with him, not be his
puppet.
"Bill M" <wmech@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:2hlIg.18086$C6.9029@bignews1.bellsouth.net...
There is NO OBJECTIVE VERIFIABLE EVIDENCE that any real gods actually
exist. They are all based on man's unreliable and selfish opinions.
The god believers claim that god created the world and everything in it.
He is all loving, all caring and all powerful creator of man in his image.
Because the world is so magnificent and complex it had to have a creator.
By this same logic, god has to be even more powerful and complex and would
have to have a creator. Complexity in no way is proof or evidence of a god
creator it is only evidence of complexity.
Supposedly man after he dies lives on in gods eternal heaven in eternal
happiness.
If this is true, why did he create so much sin and punishment on Earth?
Why did he create Hell? Why not create a world with men that are motivated
to be all caring and loving beings, just like him, with no desire to be
selfish, greedy and mean?
Religious fanatics claim that man has chosen to be evil because of his
'free will'. This is totally specious. 'Free will' does not imply or
require the existence of evil conduct.
free will n. 1. The ability or discretion to choose; free choice: chose to
remain behind of my own free will. 2. The power, attributed especially to
human beings, of making free choices that are unconstrained by external
circumstances or by an agency such as fate or divine will.
A good benevolent god could have created man as a loving caring creature
with free will but without any desire or ability to commit evil.
He already created other limitations on man's 'free will'.
He created hunger pains to force man to eat and drink? He created
suffocation panic to force man to breathe? And a powerful sex drive to
force man to procreate? (Frequently in excess of mans ability to feed and
care for his creations!)
Why create greed and selfishness which encourages man to steel, lie,
subjugate and even kill other men?
This is supposedly to keep man in line and force him to follow god's
wishes and commands. This is characteristic of a dictator and slave master
not the characteristics of a loving god.
Why does this all powerful creator, all loving and caring intelligent
designer, create Plagues, Tsunamis, Tornadoes, Volcanic Eruptions, Floods,
Wars, Earth Quakes, Cancers and hundreds of debilitating diseases and
serious body malfunctions? There are 12,000 known diseases that affect and
punish mankind indiscriminately. Why does he permit millions of both young
and old to starve to death or die of miserable diseases? Why punish
millions of INNOCENT CHILDREN in this horrible way?
There is a parasitic worm in West Africa that bores through the eyes of
children and causes total blindness for the rest of their lives. This is
the work of an all caring and loving god???
Why does this all powerful and caring god permit totally "innocent
children" to die at birth? Or worse, be born lacking eyesight, a fully
developed brain, deaf and dumb, missing limbs etc.? Why are some born
idiots and others with super intelligence? Why are some born into wealth
and others pauper poor? Why are his human creations designed to
deteriorate into a miserable and devastating old age regardless of their
religious affiliation?
Why did this all powerful and loving creator create things like sharks,
jelly fish, octopus, lions, tigers, rhinoceros, Wolves, poisonous snakes,
stinging and poisonous insects, poisonous plants etc.? Why did this caring
benevolent god create animals (including man) that need to painfully kill
and eat other animals to survive?
World War I claimed 9,000,000 lives of people of many religious faiths.
World II indiscriminately claimed over 20,000,000 lives of people of all
ages and religious faiths, plus a vast destruction of property and more
millions maimed for life.
The recent Asian Tsunami has claimed the lives of 200,000 men, women and
children of all religious persuasions. Over 100,000 of these were totally
INNOCENT children!
There were three major epidemics of the Bubonic Plaque - in the 6th, 14th.
and 17th centuries. The death toll was over 137 million men, women and
totally innocent children.
The influenza of 1918-1919 killed at least 25 million men, women and
innocent children indiscriminately.
Diseases like malaria, AIDS, tuberculosis, etc. maim and kill millions
indiscriminately every year. More millions die of starvation and
malnutrition.
These indiscriminately afflicted the young and old, atheists and those of
all religious persuasions.
Meanwhile MAN, not god, has developed defenses and cures for hundreds of
serious diseases. Man has learned to create shelter, heat and cooling,
purify water, world wide electronic communications, power and
transportation systems including flying through the air.
Perhaps your loving and caring god is actually a cruel, heartless, mean
and torturing tyrant. If he treats us so cruelly during life, why do you
think he will let us enjoy peace and eternal happiness in his Heaven? And
why does he keep all this a secret by preventing communication with our
dead parents, siblings and friends?
There are thousands of religious and god beliefs but NO OJECTIVE
VERIFIABLE EVIDENCE for the actual existence of ANY gods. ALL god beliefs
are based on the 'opinions' of errant men.
If there is a god that created the Universe, he is obviously not an
all-caring and benevolent god. Nor is he an "Intelligent Designer". The
objective evidence is if there is a god creator, he has NO concern about
the welfare of the creatures on Earth.
The objective evidence is that no gods created man but quite the opposite;
that man created gods!
.
|
|
|
| User: "Greywolf" |
|
| Title: Re: NO EVIDENCE FOR GODS |
28 Aug 2006 08:25:10 PM |
|
|
"Debster" <mountainhomeNOSPAM@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:dMSdnWfpyfrWGm7ZnZ2dnUVZ_q6dnZ2d@comcast.com...
The simple answer......God created man to fellowship with him, not be his
puppet.
"Bill M" <wmech@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:2hlIg.18086$C6.9029@bignews1.bellsouth.net...
There is NO OBJECTIVE VERIFIABLE EVIDENCE that any real gods actually
exist. They are all based on man's unreliable and selfish opinions.
The god believers claim that god created the world and everything in it.
He is all loving, all caring and all powerful creator of man in his
image.
Because the world is so magnificent and complex it had to have a creator.
By this same logic, god has to be even more powerful and complex and
would have to have a creator. Complexity in no way is proof or evidence
of a god creator it is only evidence of complexity.
Supposedly man after he dies lives on in gods eternal heaven in eternal
happiness.
If this is true, why did he create so much sin and punishment on Earth?
Why did he create Hell? Why not create a world with men that are
motivated to be all caring and loving beings, just like him, with no
desire to be selfish, greedy and mean?
Religious fanatics claim that man has chosen to be evil because of his
'free will'. This is totally specious. 'Free will' does not imply or
require the existence of evil conduct.
free will n. 1. The ability or discretion to choose; free choice: chose
to remain behind of my own free will. 2. The power, attributed especially
to human beings, of making free choices that are unconstrained by
external circumstances or by an agency such as fate or divine will.
A good benevolent god could have created man as a loving caring creature
with free will but without any desire or ability to commit evil.
He already created other limitations on man's 'free will'.
He created hunger pains to force man to eat and drink? He created
suffocation panic to force man to breathe? And a powerful sex drive to
force man to procreate? (Frequently in excess of mans ability to feed and
care for his creations!)
Why create greed and selfishness which encourages man to steel, lie,
subjugate and even kill other men?
This is supposedly to keep man in line and force him to follow god's
wishes and commands. This is characteristic of a dictator and slave
master not the characteristics of a loving god.
Why does this all powerful creator, all loving and caring intelligent
designer, create Plagues, Tsunamis, Tornadoes, Volcanic Eruptions,
Floods, Wars, Earth Quakes, Cancers and hundreds of debilitating diseases
and serious body malfunctions? There are 12,000 known diseases that
affect and punish mankind indiscriminately. Why does he permit millions
of both young and old to starve to death or die of miserable diseases?
Why punish millions of INNOCENT CHILDREN in this horrible way?
There is a parasitic worm in West Africa that bores through the eyes of
children and causes total blindness for the rest of their lives. This is
the work of an all caring and loving god???
Why does this all powerful and caring god permit totally "innocent
children" to die at birth? Or worse, be born lacking eyesight, a fully
developed brain, deaf and dumb, missing limbs etc.? Why are some born
idiots and others with super intelligence? Why are some born into wealth
and others pauper poor? Why are his human creations designed to
deteriorate into a miserable and devastating old age regardless of their
religious affiliation?
Why did this all powerful and loving creator create things like sharks,
jelly fish, octopus, lions, tigers, rhinoceros, Wolves, poisonous snakes,
stinging and poisonous insects, poisonous plants etc.? Why did this
caring benevolent god create animals (including man) that need to
painfully kill and eat other animals to survive?
World War I claimed 9,000,000 lives of people of many religious faiths.
World II indiscriminately claimed over 20,000,000 lives of people of all
ages and religious faiths, plus a vast destruction of property and more
millions maimed for life.
The recent Asian Tsunami has claimed the lives of 200,000 men, women and
children of all religious persuasions. Over 100,000 of these were totally
INNOCENT children!
There were three major epidemics of the Bubonic Plaque - in the 6th,
14th. and 17th centuries. The death toll was over 137 million men, women
and totally innocent children.
The influenza of 1918-1919 killed at least 25 million men, women and
innocent children indiscriminately.
Diseases like malaria, AIDS, tuberculosis, etc. maim and kill millions
indiscriminately every year. More millions die of starvation and
malnutrition.
These indiscriminately afflicted the young and old, atheists and those of
all religious persuasions.
Meanwhile MAN, not god, has developed defenses and cures for hundreds of
serious diseases. Man has learned to create shelter, heat and cooling,
purify water, world wide electronic communications, power and
transportation systems including flying through the air.
Perhaps your loving and caring god is actually a cruel, heartless, mean
and torturing tyrant. If he treats us so cruelly during life, why do you
think he will let us enjoy peace and eternal happiness in his Heaven? And
why does he keep all this a secret by preventing communication with our
dead parents, siblings and friends?
There are thousands of religious and god beliefs but NO OJECTIVE
VERIFIABLE EVIDENCE for the actual existence of ANY gods. ALL god beliefs
are based on the 'opinions' of errant men.
If there is a god that created the Universe, he is obviously not an
all-caring and benevolent god. Nor is he an "Intelligent Designer". The
objective evidence is if there is a god creator, he has NO concern about
the welfare of the creatures on Earth.
The objective evidence is that no gods created man but quite the
opposite; that man created gods!
You are preaching to the choir. You can talk until you're blue in the face
and make ten times the correct observations you've made and rational
questions you've raised. It doesn't matter one hoot to the Jesus people. Not
one hoot. They are going to insist they're right -- despite *any*
irrefutable evidence to support their hopeless and absurd position -- *and*
continue to raise their children to believe the same ridiculous things,
despite *anything* we skeptics can throw at them. Most of them are simply
brainwashed to the point of no return. They are in fact, brainwashed
brainwashers with no intention of letting up. That's the reality of the
situation. Your observations, I'm afraid, aren't going to change any minds.
Your words are only falling on deaf ears. These Jesus people don't want to
learn the 'truth' about our existence. They want to believe what they *want*
to believe and hope to garner and subdue as many people as they can possibly
'convert'. And they don't care one whit as to how they go about doing it
either. And rather than accept the findings of our best and brightest
scientists, they'd rather ridicule them and declare war on Science instead.
They've just *have* to have their Jesus/God 'fix', these religion addicts.
They're despicable. The whole lot of them.
Greywolf
.
|
|
|
| User: "Debster" |
|
| Title: Re: NO EVIDENCE FOR GODS |
28 Aug 2006 10:28:33 PM |
|
|
Pollyanna Graphics A Worthy Woman Blog Sig Tag by Rutans Delight
"Greywolf" <greywolf@cybrzn.com> wrote in message
news:12f75s1g2l8e8f8@corp.supernews.com...
"Debster" <mountainhomeNOSPAM@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:dMSdnWfpyfrWGm7ZnZ2dnUVZ_q6dnZ2d@comcast.com...
The simple answer......God created man to fellowship with him, not be his
puppet.
"Bill M" <wmech@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:2hlIg.18086$C6.9029@bignews1.bellsouth.net...
There is NO OBJECTIVE VERIFIABLE EVIDENCE that any real gods actually
exist. They are all based on man's unreliable and selfish opinions.
The god believers claim that god created the world and everything in it.
He is all loving, all caring and all powerful creator of man in his
image.
Because the world is so magnificent and complex it had to have a
creator. By this same logic, god has to be even more powerful and
complex and would have to have a creator. Complexity in no way is proof
or evidence of a god creator it is only evidence of complexity.
Supposedly man after he dies lives on in gods eternal heaven in eternal
happiness.
If this is true, why did he create so much sin and punishment on Earth?
Why did he create Hell? Why not create a world with men that are
motivated to be all caring and loving beings, just like him, with no
desire to be selfish, greedy and mean?
Religious fanatics claim that man has chosen to be evil because of his
'free will'. This is totally specious. 'Free will' does not imply or
require the existence of evil conduct.
free will n. 1. The ability or discretion to choose; free choice: chose
to remain behind of my own free will. 2. The power, attributed
especially to human beings, of making free choices that are
unconstrained by external circumstances or by an agency such as fate or
divine will.
A good benevolent god could have created man as a loving caring creature
with free will but without any desire or ability to commit evil.
He already created other limitations on man's 'free will'.
He created hunger pains to force man to eat and drink? He created
suffocation panic to force man to breathe? And a powerful sex drive to
force man to procreate? (Frequently in excess of mans ability to feed
and care for his creations!)
Why create greed and selfishness which encourages man to steel, lie,
subjugate and even kill other men?
This is supposedly to keep man in line and force him to follow god's
wishes and commands. This is characteristic of a dictator and slave
master not the characteristics of a loving god.
Why does this all powerful creator, all loving and caring intelligent
designer, create Plagues, Tsunamis, Tornadoes, Volcanic Eruptions,
Floods, Wars, Earth Quakes, Cancers and hundreds of debilitating
diseases and serious body malfunctions? There are 12,000 known diseases
that affect and punish mankind indiscriminately. Why does he permit
millions of both young and old to starve to death or die of miserable
diseases? Why punish millions of INNOCENT CHILDREN in this horrible way?
There is a parasitic worm in West Africa that bores through the eyes of
children and causes total blindness for the rest of their lives. This is
the work of an all caring and loving god???
Why does this all powerful and caring god permit totally "innocent
children" to die at birth? Or worse, be born lacking eyesight, a fully
developed brain, deaf and dumb, missing limbs etc.? Why are some born
idiots and others with super intelligence? Why are some born into wealth
and others pauper poor? Why are his human creations designed to
deteriorate into a miserable and devastating old age regardless of their
religious affiliation?
Why did this all powerful and loving creator create things like sharks,
jelly fish, octopus, lions, tigers, rhinoceros, Wolves, poisonous
snakes, stinging and poisonous insects, poisonous plants etc.? Why did
this caring benevolent god create animals (including man) that need to
painfully kill and eat other animals to survive?
World War I claimed 9,000,000 lives of people of many religious faiths.
World II indiscriminately claimed over 20,000,000 lives of people of all
ages and religious faiths, plus a vast destruction of property and more
millions maimed for life.
The recent Asian Tsunami has claimed the lives of 200,000 men, women and
children of all religious persuasions. Over 100,000 of these were
totally INNOCENT children!
There were three major epidemics of the Bubonic Plaque - in the 6th,
14th. and 17th centuries. The death toll was over 137 million men, women
and totally innocent children.
The influenza of 1918-1919 killed at least 25 million men, women and
innocent children indiscriminately.
Diseases like malaria, AIDS, tuberculosis, etc. maim and kill millions
indiscriminately every year. More millions die of starvation and
malnutrition.
These indiscriminately afflicted the young and old, atheists and those
of all religious persuasions.
Meanwhile MAN, not god, has developed defenses and cures for hundreds of
serious diseases. Man has learned to create shelter, heat and cooling,
purify water, world wide electronic communications, power and
transportation systems including flying through the air.
Perhaps your loving and caring god is actually a cruel, heartless, mean
and torturing tyrant. If he treats us so cruelly during life, why do you
think he will let us enjoy peace and eternal happiness in his Heaven?
And why does he keep all this a secret by preventing communication with
our dead parents, siblings and friends?
There are thousands of religious and god beliefs but NO OJECTIVE
VERIFIABLE EVIDENCE for the actual existence of ANY gods. ALL god
beliefs are based on the 'opinions' of errant men.
If there is a god that created the Universe, he is obviously not an
all-caring and benevolent god. Nor is he an "Intelligent Designer". The
objective evidence is if there is a god creator, he has NO concern about
the welfare of the creatures on Earth.
The objective evidence is that no gods created man but quite the
opposite; that man created gods!
You are preaching to the choir. You can talk until you're blue in the face
and make ten times the correct observations you've made and rational
questions you've raised. It doesn't matter one hoot to the Jesus people.
Not one hoot. They are going to insist they're right -- despite *any*
irrefutable evidence to support their hopeless and absurd position --
*and* continue to raise their children to believe the same ridiculous
things, despite *anything* we skeptics can throw at them. Most of them are
simply brainwashed to the point of no return. They are in fact,
brainwashed brainwashers with no intention of letting up. That's the
reality of the situation. Your observations, I'm afraid, aren't going to
change any minds. Your words are only falling on deaf ears. These Jesus
people don't want to learn the 'truth' about our existence. They want to
believe what they *want* to believe and hope to garner and subdue as many
people as they can possibly 'convert'. And they don't care one whit as to
how they go about doing it either. And rather than accept the findings of
our best and brightest scientists, they'd rather ridicule them and declare
war on Science instead. They've just *have* to have their Jesus/God 'fix',
these religion addicts.
They're despicable. The whole lot of them.
Greywolf
Greywolf Writes:
"Your observations, I'm afraid, aren't going to change any minds.
Your words are only falling on deaf ears. These Jesus people don't want to
learn the 'truth' about our existence."
It's not my job to change minds, only to plant seeds. Some will germinate
and become ripe for the picking. Some will just wash away. *shrug*
Besides, if your "truth" is right, then we all just take a dirt nap.
Nothing lost, nothing gained. If I'm right....well.....enough said.
I'd must ask though.... what harm does it do to you for me to believe in,
and preach the Gospel of, Jesus Christ? Other than being annoying to you,
what harm does it really cause and why are non believers so venomous? It's
serpent like. It's as if you're saying that believers are mentally ill or
something. My belief has not caused me any harm in life. It doesn't affect
my ability to function in society or as a human in general. Actually, I'm a
better person than I used to be, so where's the rub?
.
|
|
|
| User: "William T. Goat" |
|
| Title: Re: NO EVIDENCE FOR GODS |
30 Aug 2006 01:07:15 PM |
|
|
Debster wrote:
Pollyanna Graphics A Worthy Woman Blog Sig Tag by Rutans Delight
"Greywolf" <greywolf@cybrzn.com> wrote in message
news:12f75s1g2l8e8f8@corp.supernews.com...
"Debster" <mountainhomeNOSPAM@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:dMSdnWfpyfrWGm7ZnZ2dnUVZ_q6dnZ2d@comcast.com...
The simple answer......God created man to fellowship with him, not be his
puppet.
If God does not want us to be his puppet, why does he threaten to send
people to Hell if he sees the tiniest hint of free will?
Greywolf Writes:
"Your observations, I'm afraid, aren't going to change any minds.
Your words are only falling on deaf ears. These Jesus people don't want to
learn the 'truth' about our existence."
It's not my job to change minds, only to plant seeds. Some will germinate
and become ripe for the picking. Some will just wash away. *shrug*
Besides, if your "truth" is right, then we all just take a dirt nap.
Nothing lost, nothing gained. If I'm right....well.....enough said.
If you're right, most of God's creation suffers in Hell for all
eternity, and you WANT it that way. Enough said indeed.
I'd must ask though.... what harm does it do to you for me to believe in,
and preach the Gospel of, Jesus Christ? Other than being annoying to you,
what harm does it really cause and why are non believers so venomous?
The problem isn't the God thing, it's the whole afterlife Heaven/Hell
thing. Christianity teaches that everyone either goes to Heaven
(eternal happiness) or Hell (eternal physical pain) after they die, and
that the ONLY determining factor for where a person ends up is whether
or not they believe that the Bible is factual. God does not care about
morals; as Christians have told us time and time again, "you can't get
to Heaven by being a good person."
The problem is that once a person thinks that his/her loyalty to God is
more important than being a good person, it becomes very easy to make
him/her do evil things. And since God never actually appears and tells
people what to do to demonstrate loyalty to God, people must pick
humans and human-run churches to trust as God's mouthpiece.
Not so long ago, a human said that God wanted people to hijack
airplanes and crash them into the World Trade Center.
Do you see the harm now?
It's
serpent like. It's as if you're saying that believers are mentally ill or
something. My belief has not caused me any harm in life. It doesn't affect
my ability to function in society or as a human in general. Actually, I'm a
better person than I used to be, so where's the rub?
Why are you so sure that the thing that makes you a better person, can
make *everyone* a better person? There are 6 billion people in the
world, and different things work for different people. I was raised
Christian, and it impaired my ability to function in society.
Christianity made me hate myself. It made me paranoid. I became
convinced that God wanted me to kill a close friend. Does that sound
like a "better person"? It was a living Hell. Don't try to drag me back
into that.
--Billy
"If anyone comes to Me, and does not hate his own father and mother and
wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life,
he cannot be My disciple." --Jesus on family values, Luke 14:26
.
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| User: "Debster" |
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| Title: Re: NO EVIDENCE FOR GODS |
30 Aug 2006 01:29:02 PM |
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"William T. Goat" <ericvonl@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:1156961235.155802.287710@m79g2000cwm.googlegroups.com...
Debster wrote:
Pollyanna Graphics A Worthy Woman Blog Sig Tag by Rutans Delight
"Greywolf" <greywolf@cybrzn.com> wrote in message
news:12f75s1g2l8e8f8@corp.supernews.com...
"Debster" <mountainhomeNOSPAM@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:dMSdnWfpyfrWGm7ZnZ2dnUVZ_q6dnZ2d@comcast.com...
The simple answer......God created man to fellowship with him, not be
his
puppet.
If God does not want us to be his puppet, why does he threaten to send
people to Hell if he sees the tiniest hint of free will?
Greywolf Writes:
"Your observations, I'm afraid, aren't going to change any minds.
Your words are only falling on deaf ears. These Jesus people don't want
to
learn the 'truth' about our existence."
It's not my job to change minds, only to plant seeds. Some will
germinate
and become ripe for the picking. Some will just wash away. *shrug*
Besides, if your "truth" is right, then we all just take a dirt nap.
Nothing lost, nothing gained. If I'm right....well.....enough said.
If you're right, most of God's creation suffers in Hell for all
eternity, and you WANT it that way. Enough said indeed.
I'd must ask though.... what harm does it do to you for me to believe in,
and preach the Gospel of, Jesus Christ? Other than being annoying to
you,
what harm does it really cause and why are non believers so venomous?
The problem isn't the God thing, it's the whole afterlife Heaven/Hell
thing. Christianity teaches that everyone either goes to Heaven
(eternal happiness) or Hell (eternal physical pain) after they die, and
that the ONLY determining factor for where a person ends up is whether
or not they believe that the Bible is factual. God does not care about
morals; as Christians have told us time and time again, "you can't get
to Heaven by being a good person."
The problem is that once a person thinks that his/her loyalty to God is
more important than being a good person, it becomes very easy to make
him/her do evil things. And since God never actually appears and tells
people what to do to demonstrate loyalty to God, people must pick
humans and human-run churches to trust as God's mouthpiece.
Not so long ago, a human said that God wanted people to hijack
airplanes and crash them into the World Trade Center.
Do you see the harm now?
It's
serpent like. It's as if you're saying that believers are mentally ill
or
something. My belief has not caused me any harm in life. It doesn't
affect
my ability to function in society or as a human in general. Actually,
I'm a
better person than I used to be, so where's the rub?
Why are you so sure that the thing that makes you a better person, can
make *everyone* a better person? There are 6 billion people in the
world, and different things work for different people. I was raised
Christian, and it impaired my ability to function in society.
Christianity made me hate myself. It made me paranoid. I became
convinced that God wanted me to kill a close friend. Does that sound
like a "better person"? It was a living Hell. Don't try to drag me back
into that.
--Billy
"If anyone comes to Me, and does not hate his own father and mother and
wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life,
he cannot be My disciple." --Jesus on family values, Luke 14:26
Billy, I am extremely sorry to hear about your experience. Truly I am.
Every "religion" has it's kooks and extremists and it sounds like you had
the misfortune to meet up with some of them. I really wish that I could
talk to you face to face, because this isn't something that can be broken
down in a newsgroup.
I can only speak from my own experiences and somewhat to those around me and
I can't say with 100% certainty that it makes everyone a better person, but
I can say that I've seen miraculous changes in people. More dramatic than
my own testimony.
As for the afterlife thing.....I have a different perspective on that than
most people. Do I believe there is only one way to the Father. Yes, I do,
because I am a Christian and that's what the Word teaches me. God extends
His grace to *everyone*. The choice is yours to be with Him or not. I
believe "hell" to be total separation from God, by your own choosing. Sort
of like being on the outside looking in at what you could have had. I don't
believe in a literal hell...burning lakes of fire and all that. I've had a
lot of arguments with other Christians about taking it literally or
allegorically, but that's my perspective of it. I often think that this was
a method developed by mankind to scare the bejeebers out of people. I
prefer to think of God as approachable and loving. Not someone who would
bite my head off my shoulders if I looked at him wrong. He knows my heart.
Hope that made sense.
I'll be back later on. Got some errands to run, but I really have enjoyed
talking to those of you who are really interested in a nice discussion.
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| User: "Pastor Frank" |
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| Title: Re: NO EVIDENCE FOR GODS |
31 Aug 2006 10:41:47 AM |
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"William T. Goat" <ericvonl@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:1156961235.155802.287710@m79g2000cwm.googlegroups.com...
If God does not want us to be his puppet, why does he threaten to send
people to Hell if he sees the tiniest hint of free will?
He doesn't. You go where you want to go through Christ. Is it your
ambition to go to heaven, where there is God and His worshippers singing His
praises unceasingly, or would you rather go to hell, where you can debouch
yourself for all eternity?
Think it over and let us know, and we will put in a good word for you.
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| User: "Bill M" |
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| Title: Re: NO EVIDENCE FOR GODS |
31 Aug 2006 07:26:05 PM |
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"Pastor Frank" <PastorFrank@christfirst.org> wrote in message
news:1f89d$44f74968$d1d89a4a$13090@PRIMUS.CA...
"William T. Goat" <ericvonl@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:1156961235.155802.287710@m79g2000cwm.googlegroups.com...
If God does not want us to be his puppet, why does he threaten to send
people to Hell if he sees the tiniest hint of free will?
He doesn't. You go where you want to go through Christ. Is it your
ambition to go to heaven, where there is God and His worshippers singing
His praises unceasingly, or would you rather go to hell, where you can
debouch yourself for all eternity?
Think it over and let us know, and we will put in a good word for you.
It is richly amusing when someone with a 'religious faith' resting on
a heavily redacted, ineptly re-copied, manipulatively translated,
internally
contradictory, historically inaccurate, biologically uninformed and
cosmologically clueless text deriving from primitive Bronze-Age mythologies
and centering upon various incompatible representations of a suspiciously
undetectable 'god' to have them claim the veracity of their religion!
Why attempt to defend something for which there is NO OBJECTIVE VERIFIABLE
EVIDENCE?
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| User: "Pastor Frank" |
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| Title: Re: NO EVIDENCE FOR GODS |
01 Sep 2006 09:43:24 PM |
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"Bill M" <wmech@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:b6LJg.22350$y7.15511@bignews6.bellsouth.net...
Why attempt to defend something for which there is NO OBJECTIVE VERIFIABLE
EVIDENCE?
You keep chanting the same idiotic atheist mantra in every one of your
posts, yet are too tight to buy some of my genuine existing gods i offered
you for sale, a few btw. being exquisite works of art of great antiquity and
quite expensive.
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| User: "Bill M" |
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| Title: Re: NO EVIDENCE FOR GODS |
31 Aug 2006 07:18:03 PM |
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"Pastor Frank" <PastorFrank@christfirst.org> wrote in message
news:1f89d$44f74968$d1d89a4a$13090@PRIMUS.CA...
"William T. Goat" <ericvonl@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:1156961235.155802.287710@m79g2000cwm.googlegroups.com...
If God does not want us to be his puppet, why does he threaten to send
people to Hell if he sees the tiniest hint of free will?
He doesn't. You go where you want to go through Christ. Is it your
ambition to go to heaven, where there is God and His worshippers singing
His praises unceasingly, or would you rather go to hell, where you can
debouch yourself for all eternity?
Think it over and let us know, and we will put in a good word for you.
Dream on with your myths and legends!
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| User: "Barry OGrady" |
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| Title: Re: NO EVIDENCE FOR GODS |
20 Sep 2006 06:33:41 PM |
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On Thu, 31 Aug 2006 11:41:47 -0400, "Pastor Frank" <PastorFrank@christfirst.org> wrote:
"William T. Goat" <ericvonl@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:1156961235.155802.287710@m79g2000cwm.googlegroups.com...
If God does not want us to be his puppet, why does he threaten to send
people to Hell if he sees the tiniest hint of free will?
He doesn't. You go where you want to go through Christ. Is it your
ambition to go to heaven, where there is God and His worshippers singing His
praises unceasingly, or would you rather go to hell, where you can debouch
yourself for all eternity?
Think it over and let us know, and we will put in a good word for you.
You make hell sound like the best option.
Wouldn't want to stuck with God for an eternity.
Barry
=====
Home page
http://members.iinet.net.au/~barry.og
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| User: "William T. Goat" |
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| Title: Re: NO EVIDENCE FOR GODS |
01 Sep 2006 07:22:45 PM |
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Pastor Frank wrote:
"William T. Goat" <ericvonl@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:1156961235.155802.287710@m79g2000cwm.googlegroups.com...
If God does not want us to be his puppet, why does he threaten to send
people to Hell if he sees the tiniest hint of free will?
He doesn't. You go where you want to go through Christ. Is it your
ambition to go to heaven, where there is God and His worshippers singing His
praises unceasingly, or would you rather go to hell, where you can debouch
yourself for all eternity?
Both options seem shallow: they both lack love.
Plus, I'm not familiar with your description of Hell. It's nothing like
what Christians, or the Bible, actually teach.
--Billy
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| User: "Pastor Frank" |
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| Title: Re: NO EVIDENCE FOR GODS |
06 Sep 2006 11:02:27 AM |
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"William T. Goat" <ericvonl@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:1157156565.311688.211380@p79g2000cwp.googlegroups.com...
Pastor Frank wrote:
"William T. Goat" <ericvonl@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:1156961235.155802.287710@m79g2000cwm.googlegroups.com...
If God does not want us to be his puppet, why does he threaten to send
people to Hell if he sees the tiniest hint of free will?
He doesn't. You go where you want to go through Christ. Is it your
ambition to go to heaven, where there is God and His worshippers singing
His
praises unceasingly, or would you rather go to hell, where you can
debouch
yourself for all eternity?
Both options seem shallow: they both lack love.
Plus, I'm not familiar with your description of Hell. It's nothing like
what Christians, or the Bible, actually teach.
Are you aiming to tell us, that in your opinion all Christians are
hypocrites who "sing the praises of their God", for reward, much like a dog
puts on an act to persuade you teed him?
No wonder you are an atheist. If I were to think for one minute my God
would want obsequious sycophants instead of loving and caring sons, I would
go back being an atheist.
I think hell is wherever you want it to be and whatever you want it to
be. We Christians have reason to praise God, but will there ever be a reason
to praise Satan? Choose wisely!!!
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| User: "William T. Goat" |
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| Title: Re: NO EVIDENCE FOR GODS |
15 Sep 2006 08:25:24 PM |
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Pastor Frank wrote:
"William T. Goat" <ericvonl@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:1157156565.311688.211380@p79g2000cwp.googlegroups.com...
Pastor Frank wrote:
"William T. Goat" <ericvonl@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:1156961235.155802.287710@m79g2000cwm.googlegroups.com...
If God does not want us to be his puppet, why does he threaten to send
people to Hell if he sees the tiniest hint of free will?
He doesn't. You go where you want to go through Christ. Is it your
ambition to go to heaven, where there is God and His worshippers singing
His
praises unceasingly, or would you rather go to hell, where you can
debouch
yourself for all eternity?
Both options seem shallow: they both lack love.
Plus, I'm not familiar with your description of Hell. It's nothing like
what Christians, or the Bible, actually teach.
Are you aiming to tell us, that in your opinion all Christians are
hypocrites who "sing the praises of their God", for reward, much like a dog
puts on an act to persuade you teed him?
Yes. Having been raised Christian, having studied the Bible, yes, that
is the "opinion" that I have reached. And as long as you keep
presenting Heaven and Hell as the only "choices," you prove me right.
No wonder you are an atheist. If I were to think for one minute my God
would want obsequious sycophants instead of loving and caring sons, I would
go back being an atheist.
Here's the thing: why *don't* you think your God would want obsequious
sycophants? It's what the Bible teaches. Do you doubt the Bible?
It seems that you understand atheism. You know that atheism is the only
moral reaction to the discovery that God wants obsequious sycophants.
You know that it has nothing to do with people wanting to "debauch
themselves". So, will you stop repeating that lie now?
I think hell is wherever you want it to be and whatever you want it to
be.
Then you spit on the Bible, the very Word of God. Heretic!!!
We Christians have reason to praise God, but will there ever be a reason
to praise Satan? Choose wisely!!!
What reason do you have to praise God, if not a reward?
--Billy
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| User: "Pastor Frank" |
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| Title: Re: NO EVIDENCE FOR GODS |
16 Sep 2006 03:25:57 AM |
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"William T. Goat" <ericvonl@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:1158369924.595710.102650@e3g2000cwe.googlegroups.com...
Pastor Frank wrote:
"William T. Goat" <ericvonl@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:1157156565.311688.211380@p79g2000cwp.googlegroups.com...
Pastor Frank wrote:
"William T. Goat" <ericvonl@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:1156961235.155802.287710@m79g2000cwm.googlegroups.com...
If God does not want us to be his puppet, why does he threaten to
send
people to Hell if he sees the tiniest hint of free will?
He doesn't. You go where you want to go through Christ. Is it your
ambition to go to heaven, where there is God and His worshippers
singing
His
praises unceasingly, or would you rather go to hell, where you can
debouch
yourself for all eternity?
Both options seem shallow: they both lack love.
Plus, I'm not familiar with your description of Hell. It's nothing like
what Christians, or the Bible, actually teach.
Are you aiming to tell us, that in your opinion all Christians are
hypocrites who "sing the praises of their God", for reward, much like a
dog
puts on an act to persuade you teed him?
Yes. Having been raised Christian, having studied the Bible, yes, that
is the "opinion" that I have reached. And as long as you keep
presenting Heaven and Hell as the only "choices," you prove me right.
No wonder you are an atheist. If I were to think for one minute my
God
would want obsequious sycophants instead of loving and caring sons, I
would
go back being an atheist.
Here's the thing: why *don't* you think your God would want obsequious
sycophants? It's what the Bible teaches. Do you doubt the Bible?
You don't cite where the Christian NT Bible shows God wanting
"obsequious sycophants", so the only conclusion is you make it all up as you
go, because of your hate.
We prefer talking of love, the love of our Father in heaven has for us,
His children / creation, ...to the death on the cross if need be. See below
Pastor Frank
SONS OF GOD
Jesus in Jn:8:35-36: And the servant abideth not in the house for ever:
but the Son abideth ever. If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall
be free indeed.
Jesus in Jn:15:15: Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant
knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all
things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you.
Jn:1:12: But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become
the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
Rom:8:14: For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons
of God.
Rom:8:19: For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the
manifestation of the sons of God.
Phil:2:15: That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God,
without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among
whom ye shine as lights in the world;
1Jn:3:1: Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us,
that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us
not, because it knew him not.
1Jn:3:2: Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear
what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like
him; for we shall see him as he is.
.
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| User: "William T. Goat" |
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| Title: Re: NO EVIDENCE FOR GODS |
17 Sep 2006 06:32:08 PM |
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Pastor Frank wrote:
"William T. Goat" <ericvonl@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:1158369924.595710.102650@e3g2000cwe.googlegroups.com...
Pastor Frank wrote:
"William T. Goat" <ericvonl@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:1157156565.311688.211380@p79g2000cwp.googlegroups.com...
Pastor Frank wrote:
"William T. Goat" <ericvonl@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:1156961235.155802.287710@m79g2000cwm.googlegroups.com...
If God does not want us to be his puppet, why does he threaten to
send
people to Hell if he sees the tiniest hint of free will?
He doesn't. You go where you want to go through Christ. Is it your
ambition to go to heaven, where there is God and His worshippers
singing
His
praises unceasingly, or would you rather go to hell, where you can
debouch
yourself for all eternity?
Both options seem shallow: they both lack love.
Plus, I'm not familiar with your description of Hell. It's nothing like
what Christians, or the Bible, actually teach.
Are you aiming to tell us, that in your opinion all Christians are
hypocrites who "sing the praises of their God", for reward, much like a
dog
puts on an act to persuade you teed him?
You yourself wrote, in another thread, that you "choose freely to
follow Him into life". Isn't life your reward for following God?
Yes. Having been raised Christian, having studied the Bible, yes, that
is the "opinion" that I have reached. And as long as you keep
presenting Heaven and Hell as the only "choices," you prove me right.
No wonder you are an atheist. If I were to think for one minute my
God
would want obsequious sycophants instead of loving and caring sons, I
would
go back being an atheist.
Here's the thing: why *don't* you think your God would want obsequious
sycophants? It's what the Bible teaches. Do you doubt the Bible?
You don't cite where the Christian NT Bible shows God wanting
"obsequious sycophants",
Sorry, I forgot the cites. Thanks for reminding me.
2 Thessalonians, chapter 1.
1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus
shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and
that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
1:9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the
presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
And then of course there is the Parable of the Talents, in Luke Chapter
19.
so the only conclusion is you make it all up as you
go, because of your hate.
Now that you have seen the cites, you will of course take back this
slander.
<unsnip>
It seems that you understand atheism. You know that atheism is the only
moral reaction to the discovery that God wants sycophants, as detailed
in 2 Thessalonians Chapter 1:7-9, and the Parable of the Talents, Luke
chapter 19.
You know that it has nothing to do with people wanting to "debauch
themselves". So, will you stop repeating that lie now?
We Christians have reason to praise God, but will there ever be a reason
to praise Satan? Choose wisely!!!
Why praise either? Are you suggesting that everyone is forced to praise
something? What happened to free will?
Christians have a reason to praise God: God saved them. I have no
reason to praise God: God damned me. How do I get God to save me? This
is a sincere question.
We prefer talking of love, the love of our Father in heaven has for us,
His children / creation, ...to the death on the cross if need be. See below
Pastor Frank
How do I get God to love me? This is a sincere question.
--Billy
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| User: "Geoff" |
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| Title: Re: NO EVIDENCE FOR GODS |
17 Sep 2006 06:37:37 PM |
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"William T. Goat" <ericvonl@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1158535928.639671.29410@h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
How do I get God to love me? This is a sincere question.
Oral sex.
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| User: "Pastor Frank" |
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| Title: Re: NO EVIDENCE FOR GODS |
17 Sep 2006 08:37:25 PM |
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"Geoff" <gebobs@yahoo.nospam.com> wrote in message
news:JrednWDEHfzYQZDYnZ2dnUVZ_radnZ2d@comcast.com...
"William T. Goat" <ericvonl@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1158535928.639671.29410@h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
How do I get God to love me? This is a sincere question.
Oral sex.
God loves you with the abiding passion inherent in being a father. It's
you not knowing Him, who lacks love and care, not He. That's why you talk
to, and about your Father which in in heaven like a rebellious teen. See
below
Pastor Frank
Jesus in Mt:11:16: But whereunto shall I liken this generation? It is
like children sitting in the market place yelling one to another.
Jesus in Mt:11:17: And like saying: We have piped unto you, and ye have
not danced; we have mourned unto you, and ye have not lamented.
Jesus in Jn:10:10: The thief cometh not, but for to steal, to kill, and
to destroy. I am come that ye might have life, and that more abundantly.
.
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| User: "Geoff" |
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| Title: Re: NO EVIDENCE FOR GODS |
18 Sep 2006 04:09:37 AM |
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"Pastor Frank" <PastorFrank@christfirst.org> wrote in message
news:160f9$450dfba2$d1d89a48$18256@PRIMUS.CA...
"Geoff" <gebobs@yahoo.nospam.com> wrote in message
news:JrednWDEHfzYQZDYnZ2dnUVZ_radnZ2d@comcast.com...
"William T. Goat" <ericvonl@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1158535928.639671.29410@h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
How do I get God to love me? This is a sincere question.
Oral sex.
God loves you with the abiding passion inherent in being a father. It's
you not knowing Him, who lacks love and care, not He. That's why you talk
to, and about your Father which in in heaven like a rebellious teen.
Wow...you think you are can accurately assess my motives from reading a post
on Usenet? This is first-hand evidence, aside from your woo-woo beliefs,
that you are delusional.
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| User: "Father Haskell" |
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| Title: Re: NO EVIDENCE FOR GODS |
17 Sep 2006 09:04:45 PM |
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Pastor Frank wrote:
"Geoff" <gebobs@yahoo.nospam.com> wrote in message
news:JrednWDEHfzYQZDYnZ2dnUVZ_radnZ2d@comcast.com...
"William T. Goat" <ericvonl@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1158535928.639671.29410@h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
How do I get God to love me? This is a sincere question.
Oral sex.
God loves you with the abiding passion inherent in being a father. It's
you not knowing Him, who lacks love and care, not He. That's why you talk
to, and about your Father which in in heaven like a rebellious teen. See
below
No one is being a rebellious teen. God is being an *****.
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| User: "Frank Mayhar" |
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| Title: Re: NO EVIDENCE FOR GODS |
17 Sep 2006 09:19:34 PM |
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On Sun, 17 Sep 2006 20:04:45 -0700, Father Haskell wrote:
Pastor Frank wrote:
"Geoff" <gebobs@yahoo.nospam.com> wrote in message
news:JrednWDEHfzYQZDYnZ2dnUVZ_radnZ2d@comcast.com...
"William T. Goat" <ericvonl@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1158535928.639671.29410@h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
How do I get God to love me? This is a sincere question.
Oral sex.
God loves you with the abiding passion inherent in being a father. It's
you not knowing Him, who lacks love and care, not He. That's why you talk
to, and about your Father which in in heaven like a rebellious teen. See
below
No one is being a rebellious teen. God is being an *****.
Yeah, the ***** just keeps on stubbornly refusing to exist.
That *****!
--
Frank Mayhar frank@exit.com http://www.exit.com/
Exit Consulting http://www.gpsclock.com/
http://www.exit.com/blog/frank/
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| User: "William T. Goat" |
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| Title: Re: NO EVIDENCE FOR GODS |
31 Aug 2006 08:44:26 PM |
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Pastor Frank wrote:
"William T. Goat" <ericvonl@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:1156961235.155802.287710@m79g2000cwm.googlegroups.com...
If God does not want us to be his puppet, why does he threaten to send
people to Hell if he sees the tiniest hint of free will?
He doesn't. You go where you want to go through Christ. Is it your
ambition to go to heaven, where there is God and His worshippers singing His
praises unceasingly, or would you rather go to hell, where you can debouch
yourself for all eternity?
Since when is that the Christian definition of Hell? What happened to
the lake of fire, and all of that stuff?
--Billy
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| User: "Pastor Frank" |
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| Title: Re: NO EVIDENCE FOR GODS |
01 Sep 2006 09:45:57 PM |
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"William T. Goat" <ericvonl@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:1157075066.113575.149940@m79g2000cwm.googlegroups.com...
Pastor Frank wrote:
"William T. Goat" <ericvonl@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:1156961235.155802.287710@m79g2000cwm.googlegroups.com...
If God does not want us to be his puppet, why does he threaten to send
people to Hell if he sees the tiniest hint of free will?
He doesn't. You go where you want to go through Christ. Is it your
ambition to go to heaven, where there is God and His worshippers singing
His
praises unceasingly, or would you rather go to hell, where you can
debouch
yourself for all eternity?
Since when is that the Christian definition of Hell? What happened to
the lake of fire, and all of that stuff?
That's the way if FEELS, for religion deals with how you feel about
things.
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| User: "Father Haskell" |
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| Title: Re: NO EVIDENCE FOR GODS |
03 Sep 2006 01:11:37 AM |
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Pastor Frank wrote:
"William T. Goat" <ericvonl@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:1156961235.155802.287710@m79g2000cwm.googlegroups.com...
If God does not want us to be his puppet, why does he threaten to send
people to Hell if he sees the tiniest hint of free will?
He doesn't. You go where you want to go through Christ. Is it your
ambition to go to heaven, where there is God and His worshippers singing His
praises unceasingly, or would you rather go to hell, where you can debouch
yourself for all eternity?
You make hell sound better.
.
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| User: "Mike" |
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| Title: Re: NO EVIDENCE FOR GODS |
03 Sep 2006 01:22:31 AM |
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Father Haskell wrote:
Pastor Frank wrote:
"William T. Goat" <ericvonl@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:1156961235.155802.287710@m79g2000cwm.googlegroups.com...
If God does not want us to be his puppet, why does he threaten to send
people to Hell if he sees the tiniest hint of free will?
He doesn't. You go where you want to go through Christ. Is it your
ambition to go to heaven, where there is God and His worshippers singing His
praises unceasingly, or would you rather go to hell, where you can debouch
yourself for all eternity?
You make hell sound better.
What, no hell-fire and brimstone? Just debauchery for ever and ever?
Does that include free beer and lots of really hot babes with low self
esteem? Nah, I'd rather spend all of eternity wearing flappy angel
wings and singing "Gloria in excelsis Deo" over and over and over
again.
"I'll take heaven for the climate, but hell for the company." (Mark
Twain)
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| User: "Michael Gray" |
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| Title: Re: NO EVIDENCE FOR GODS |
03 Sep 2006 02:46:07 AM |
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On 2 Sep 2006 23:11:37 -0700, "Father Haskell"
<fatherhaskell@yahoo.com> wrote:
- Refer: <1157263897.517726.308970@74g2000cwt.googlegroups.com>
Pastor Frank wrote:
"William T. Goat" <ericvonl@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:1156961235.155802.287710@m79g2000cwm.googlegroups.com...
If God does not want us to be his puppet, why does he threaten to send
people to Hell if he sees the tiniest hint of free will?
He doesn't. You go where you want to go through Christ. Is it your
ambition to go to heaven, where there is God and His worshippers singing His
praises unceasingly, or would you rather go to hell, where you can debouch
yourself for all eternity?
You make hell sound better.
Except that without doubt, Pastor Wank would be in residence.
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| User: "John Baker" |
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| Title: Re: NO EVIDENCE FOR GODS |
29 Aug 2006 03:53:59 AM |
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On Mon, 28 Aug 2006 21:28:33 -0600, "Debster"
<mountainhomeNOSPAM@comcast.net> wrote:
Pollyanna Graphics A Worthy Woman Blog Sig Tag by Rutans Delight
"Greywolf" <greywolf@cybrzn.com> wrote in message
news:12f75s1g2l8e8f8@corp.supernews.com...
"Debster" <mountainhomeNOSPAM@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:dMSdnWfpyfrWGm7ZnZ2dnUVZ_q6dnZ2d@comcast.com...
The simple answer......God created man to fellowship with him, not be his
puppet.
"Bill M" <wmech@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:2hlIg.18086$C6.9029@bignews1.bellsouth.net...
There is NO OBJECTIVE VERIFIABLE EVIDENCE that any real gods actually
exist. They are all based on man's unreliable and selfish opinions.
The god believers claim that god created the world and everything in it.
He is all loving, all caring and all powerful creator of man in his
image.
Because the world is so magnificent and complex it had to have a
creator. By this same logic, god has to be even more powerful and
complex and would have to have a creator. Complexity in no way is proof
or evidence of a god creator it is only evidence of complexity.
Supposedly man after he dies lives on in gods eternal heaven in eternal
happiness.
If this is true, why did he create so much sin and punishment on Earth?
Why did he create Hell? Why not create a world with men that are
motivated to be all caring and loving beings, just like him, with no
desire to be selfish, greedy and mean?
Religious fanatics claim that man has chosen to be evil because of his
'free will'. This is totally specious. 'Free will' does not imply or
require the existence of evil conduct.
free will n. 1. The ability or discretion to choose; free choice: chose
to remain behind of my own free will. 2. The power, attributed
especially to human beings, of making free choices that are
unconstrained by external circumstances or by an agency such as fate or
divine will.
A good benevolent god could have created man as a loving caring creature
with free will but without any desire or ability to commit evil.
He already created other limitations on man's 'free will'.
He created hunger pains to force man to eat and drink? He created
suffocation panic to force man to breathe? And a powerful sex drive to
force man to procreate? (Frequently in excess of mans ability to feed
and care for his creations!)
Why create greed and selfishness which encourages man to steel, lie,
subjugate and even kill other men?
This is supposedly to keep man in line and force him to follow god's
wishes and commands. This is characteristic of a dictator and slave
master not the characteristics of a loving god.
Why does this all powerful creator, all loving and caring intelligent
designer, create Plagues, Tsunamis, Tornadoes, Volcanic Eruptions,
Floods, Wars, Earth Quakes, Cancers and hundreds of debilitating
diseases and serious body malfunctions? There are 12,000 known diseases
that affect and punish mankind indiscriminately. Why does he permit
millions of both young and old to starve to death or die of miserable
diseases? Why punish millions of INNOCENT CHILDREN in this horrible way?
There is a parasitic worm in West Africa that bores through the eyes of
children and causes total blindness for the rest of their lives. This is
the work of an all caring and loving god???
Why does this all powerful and caring god permit totally "innocent
children" to die at birth? Or worse, be born lacking eyesight, a fully
developed brain, deaf and dumb, missing limbs etc.? Why are some born
idiots and others with super intelligence? Why are some born into wealth
and others pauper poor? Why are his human creations designed to
deteriorate into a miserable and devastating old age regardless of their
religious affiliation?
Why did this all powerful and loving creator create things like sharks,
jelly fish, octopus, lions, tigers, rhinoceros, Wolves, poisonous
snakes, stinging and poisonous insects, poisonous plants etc.? Why did
this caring benevolent god create animals (including man) that need to
painfully kill and eat other animals to survive?
World War I claimed 9,000,000 lives of people of many religious faiths.
World II indiscriminately claimed over 20,000,000 lives of people of all
ages and religious faiths, plus a vast destruction of property and more
millions maimed for life.
The recent Asian Tsunami has claimed the lives of 200,000 men, women and
children of all religious persuasions. Over 100,000 of these were
totally INNOCENT children!
There were three major epidemics of the Bubonic Plaque - in the 6th,
14th. and 17th centuries. The death toll was over 137 million men, women
and totally innocent children.
The influenza of 1918-1919 killed at least 25 million men, women and
innocent children indiscriminately.
Diseases like malaria, AIDS, tuberculosis, etc. maim and kill millions
indiscriminately every year. More millions die of starvation and
malnutrition.
These indiscriminately afflicted the young and old, atheists and those
of all religious persuasions.
Meanwhile MAN, not god, has developed defenses and cures for hundreds of
serious diseases. Man has learned to create shelter, heat and cooling,
purify water, world wide electronic communications, power and
transportation systems including flying through the air.
Perhaps your loving and caring god is actually a cruel, heartless, mean
and torturing tyrant. If he treats us so cruelly during life, why do you
think he will let us enjoy peace and eternal happiness in his Heaven?
And why does he keep all this a secret by preventing communication with
our dead parents, siblings and friends?
There are thousands of religious and god beliefs but NO OJECTIVE
VERIFIABLE EVIDENCE for the actual existence of ANY gods. ALL god
beliefs are based on the 'opinions' of errant men.
If there is a god that created the Universe, he is obviously not an
all-caring and benevolent god. Nor is he an "Intelligent Designer". The
objective evidence is if there is a god creator, he has NO concern about
the welfare of the creatures on Earth.
The objective evidence is that no gods created man but quite the
opposite; that man created gods!
You are preaching to the choir. You can talk until you're blue in the face
and make ten times the correct observations you've made and rational
questions you've raised. It doesn't matter one hoot to the Jesus people.
Not one hoot. They are going to insist they're right -- despite *any*
irrefutable evidence to support their hopeless and absurd position --
*and* continue to raise their children to believe the same ridiculous
things, despite *anything* we skeptics can throw at them. Most of them are
simply brainwashed to the point of no return. They are in fact,
brainwashed brainwashers with no intention of letting up. That's the
reality of the situation. Your observations, I'm afraid, aren't going to
change any minds. Your words are only falling on deaf ears. These Jesus
people don't want to learn the 'truth' about our existence. They want to
believe what they *want* to believe and hope to garner and subdue as many
people as they can possibly 'convert'. And they don't care one whit as to
how they go about doing it either. And rather than accept the findings of
our best and brightest scientists, they'd rather ridicule them and declare
war on Science instead. They've just *have* to have their Jesus/God 'fix',
these religion addicts.
They're despicable. The whole lot of them.
Greywolf
Greywolf Writes:
"Your observations, I'm afraid, aren't going to change any minds.
Your words are only falling on deaf ears. These Jesus people don't want to
learn the 'truth' about our existence."
It's not my job to change minds, only to plant seeds. Some will germinate
and become ripe for the picking. Some will just wash away. *shrug*
Besides, if your "truth" is right, then we all just take a dirt nap.
Nothing lost, nothing gained. If I'm right....well.....enough said.
Congratulations. You're the one billionth Christian to invoke Pascal's
Wager in alt.atheism. There's no prize, but you get bragging rights.
I'd must ask though.... what harm does it do to you for me to believe in,
and preach the Gospel of, Jesus Christ? Other than being annoying to you,
what harm does it really cause and why are non believers so venomous?
Because we're sick and tired of having your superstitious nonsense
rammed down our throats.
It's
serpent like. It's as if you're saying that believers are mentally ill or
something.
You believe some mysterious being whom no one has ever seen magicked
the universe into existence for who knows what reason. You believe
this being fashioned a creature out of mud...and somehow made it live.
You believe a man walked on water and was raised from the dead. You
believe a book that tells of witches, wizards, prophets, talking
animals, food falling from the sky and the sun standing still in the
sky is the literal and inerrant truth. And you believe all of this and
more without a shred of corroborating evidence.
Do the math.
My belief has not caused me any harm in life. It doesn't affect
my ability to function in society or as a human in general. Actually, I'm a
better person than I used to be, so where's the rub?
.
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| User: "Debster" |
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| Title: Re: NO EVIDENCE FOR GODS |
29 Aug 2006 07:32:01 AM |
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"John Baker" <nunya@bizniz.net> wrote in message
news:pbv7f2ln9j1qq8u6a3oa3f913bj9gn7ql7@4ax.com...
On Mon, 28 Aug 2006 21:28:33 -0600, "Debster"
<mountainhomeNOSPAM@comcast.net> wrote:
Pollyanna Graphics A Worthy Woman Blog Sig Tag by Rutans Delight
"Greywolf" <greywolf@cybrzn.com> wrote in message
news:12f75s1g2l8e8f8@corp.supernews.com...
"Debster" <mountainhomeNOSPAM@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:dMSdnWfpyfrWGm7ZnZ2dnUVZ_q6dnZ2d@comcast.com...
The simple answer......God created man to fellowship with him, not be
his
puppet.
"Bill M" <wmech@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:2hlIg.18086$C6.9029@bignews1.bellsouth.net...
There is NO OBJECTIVE VERIFIABLE EVIDENCE that any real gods actually
exist. They are all based on man's unreliable and selfish opinions.
The god believers claim that god created the world and everything in
it.
He is all loving, all caring and all powerful creator of man in his
image.
Because the world is so magnificent and complex it had to have a
creator. By this same logic, god has to be even more powerful and
complex and would have to have a creator. Complexity in no way is
proof
or evidence of a god creator it is only evidence of complexity.
Supposedly man after he dies lives on in gods eternal heaven in
eternal
happiness.
If this is true, why did he create so much sin and punishment on
Earth?
Why did he create Hell? Why not create a world with men that are
motivated to be all caring and loving beings, just like him, with no
desire to be selfish, greedy and mean?
Religious fanatics claim that man has chosen to be evil because of his
'free will'. This is totally specious. 'Free will' does not imply or
require the existence of evil conduct.
free will n. 1. The ability or discretion to choose; free choice:
chose
to remain behind of my own free will. 2. The power, attributed
especially to human beings, of making free choices that are
unconstrained by external circumstances or by an agency such as fate
or
divine will.
A good benevolent god could have created man as a loving caring
creature
with free will but without any desire or ability to commit evil.
He already created other limitations on man's 'free will'.
He created hunger pains to force man to eat and drink? He created
suffocation panic to force man to breathe? And a powerful sex drive to
force man to procreate? (Frequently in excess of mans ability to feed
and care for his creations!)
Why create greed and selfishness which encourages man to steel, lie,
subjugate and even kill other men?
This is supposedly to keep man in line and force him to follow god's
wishes and commands. This is characteristic of a dictator and slave
master not the characteristics of a loving god.
Why does this all powerful creator, all loving and caring intelligent
designer, create Plagues, Tsunamis, Tornadoes, Volcanic Eruptions,
Floods, Wars, Earth Quakes, Cancers and hundreds of debilitating
diseases and serious body malfunctions? There are 12,000 known
diseases
that affect and punish mankind indiscriminately. Why does he permit
millions of both young and old to starve to death or die of miserable
diseases? Why punish millions of INNOCENT CHILDREN in this horrible
way?
There is a parasitic worm in West Africa that bores through the eyes
of
children and causes total blindness for the rest of their lives. This
is
the work of an all caring and loving god???
Why does this all powerful and caring god permit totally "innocent
children" to die at birth? Or worse, be born lacking eyesight, a fully
developed brain, deaf and dumb, missing limbs etc.? Why are some born
idiots and others with super intelligence? Why are some born into
wealth
and others pauper poor? Why are his human creations designed to
deteriorate into a miserable and devastating old age regardless of
their
religious affiliation?
Why did this all powerful and loving creator create things like
sharks,
jelly fish, octopus, lions, tigers, rhinoceros, Wolves, poisonous
snakes, stinging and poisonous insects, poisonous plants etc.? Why did
this caring benevolent god create animals (including man) that need to
painfully kill and eat other animals to survive?
World War I claimed 9,000,000 lives of people of many religious
faiths.
World II indiscriminately claimed over 20,000,000 lives of people of
all
ages and religious faiths, plus a vast destruction of property and
more
millions maimed for life.
The recent Asian Tsunami has claimed the lives of 200,000 men, women
and
children of all religious persuasions. Over 100,000 of these were
totally INNOCENT children!
There were three major epidemics of the Bubonic Plaque - in the 6th,
14th. and 17th centuries. The death toll was over 137 million men,
women
and totally innocent children.
The influenza of 1918-1919 killed at least 25 million men, women and
innocent children indiscriminately.
Diseases like malaria, AIDS, | | | | | |
