"human" <human@csd.uwm.edu> wrote in message
news:Pine.OSF.3.96.1051218193811.10646E-100000@alpha1.csd.uwm.edu...

The announcement by Bart Meltzer, spokesperson for AA, said:
" It's the goal of American Atheists to completely remove all religious
encroachment from our government >>
Religious symbols on grave markers are either pre-chosen by the
deceased,
or chosen by the family of the deceased. They are not chosen by the
government, and they are not "religious encroachment from our
government."
<< and it would seem that the word "ALL" is pretty inclusive.
See above.

I did the word "ALL" seems pretty inclusive to me. Doesn't it to you? I
think most folks interpret the word "ALL" to cover any and all
permutations.
As in EVERYTHING!

Actually, I watched Mike Rivers on the O'Reilly show, and he made no
objection to crosses on markers in cemeteries when the film panned grave
markers. I did notice that only markers with crosses were shown. No
markers with other symbols were shown. There are other symbols.

That wasn't the show I saw.

You have yet to provide data showing that American Atheists objects to
crosses on grave markers.

Just the appearance on H&C. I think O'Reilly got him on it too.

The first guy or the second? We have the first guy Mike Rivers who
started the suit he's the ***** from Utah AA, and then your buddy BART
from the Texas headquarters of AA that said "ALL" religious encroachment
on government property.

You have not proven that crosses on grave markers are "religious
encroachment." American Atheists does not take the position that crosses
on grave markers in govt. cemeteries is a case of government encroachment.

Are you saying definatively on behalf of AA that they are NOT?

State and Federal cemetaries ARE government property Carol. >

No one has stated that they are not.

And crosses on headstones ARE religious symbols!!!

<<So when you say "ALL" that would seem to include ANY religioius symbol
(interpreted by AA as damn CHRISTAIN symbols) anywhere they are found on
ANY government property, municipal, county, state or Federal ANYWHERE!>>

Actually, that is your strawman. You have provided no data to support
your claim that American Atheists objects to or desires to remove crosses
on grave markers.

Is it?

<<was asked if that included cemeteries on the Hannity and Combs show
on
Fox news. He said it most definitely did. You want the transcript ask
Fox
news. >>
You are the one making the claim. It is up to you to provide data
which
proves you are not misrepresenting what happened on the Hannity and
Combs
show in the same way you misrepresented what Meltzer's announcement
said.

No Carol I won't waste my time. You only SNIP out any sources I use and
then ANGRILY DENY I ever included them.

No one can remove any "sources" you provide. They are archived.

Yes I know Carol as others have pointed out. How it is your MODUS
operendai to snip them from a thread and then make somebody have to dearch
all the way back through the long thread to find the references, and when
they do, you merely REPEAT the process NEVER admitting that any sources were
provided.

Nothing you have provided has proven your claims.

Oh Carol I think the lawsuits make it speak for itself.

<< I am NOT going to spend the time tracking down stuff you will only DENY
I ever posted anyway. Remember I have

been playing this game with you for YEARS.. YOU know how to access the
Fox
website.. Look up Mike Rivers as the guest a week or so ago on Hannity
and
Combs...

Hannity & Colmes

SPELLKOP!

Is it possible you can't tell the difference between one FOX show and
another? Are you so anesthetized by FOX that you don't know O'Reilly from
Hannity & Colmes?

Sure anything is possible Carol - but I don't think in this case.

http://www.newshounds.us/2005/12/06/oreilly_ambushes_athiest_guest.php

... were placed above graves of actual people and therefore were not
"memorials," in the same way that the roadside crosses in Utah are
"memorials, but the subtle distinction was lost on O'Reilly, who really only
had one agenda: Make Rivers look godless and stupid so his viewers wouldn't
bother their heads with the possibility that he (O'Reilly) was actually
talking through his hat on this topic.

He then showed various clips of headstones at Arlington National Cemetary

that had small crosses engraved into them. He referred to the headstones as
"crosses" rather than being more precise and saying "headstones with crosses
engraved on them." Mr. Rivers clearly could not actually see what the
viewing audience was seeing. Since O'Reily described the generic rounded
headstones as "crosses," Rivers was misinformed and asumed O'reilly was
describing actual sculpted crosses. So, Rivers was unable to answer O'Reilly
effectively. In short he was ambushed."

Rivers had a monitor to look at. BUT it would seem omitted is that
Rivers did object to "Crosses" in the cemeteries . seems to me to be hair
splitting between objecting to a cross on a chapel in the cemetery and one
engraged on a headstone. Care to explain the "Constitutional" difference
between them? If ONE kind of cross must go then they ALL must go. OR - are
SOME crosses more equal than other crosses Carol?

"The [Arlington National] cemetery overlooks the Potomac River and has more
than 14,000 trees. Most graves are marked with simple tombstones. The major
exception: the turn-of-the-century Officers Section, which is crowded with
lavish markers. These stone angels, huge crosses, marble cannonballs--and
even a cannon--were paid for by soldiers' families."

Oh so as long as the GOVERNMENT doesn't PAY for the crosses they are
okay? Carol do you have ANY idea of how you are talking out of both sides
of your mouth on this?? ANY idea at all? Does intellectual consistency sink
in on you on ANY level Carol?

(this blogger can't seem to spell atheist correctly, but he does make
reference to Mike River's appearance on the O'Reilly Factor.)
Here is an atheist blogger who mentions Mike Rivers

http://www.atheists.org/nogodblog/

Some text:
"Recently, certain questionably ethical news outlets have asserted that
American Atheists is also trying to get the crosses on graves at Arlington
National Cemetery removed as well. This is NOT TRUE. We have made no such
statements, no press releases, and have made no effort in regard to
Arlington, and WILL NOT DO SO."

But they said the same thing about "In God we trust" on the currency...
Why don't I feel like I can take them at their word of denial?

"Crosses on the graves at Arlington (or any other cemetery) obviously
pertain to the people who ARE buried under the stones. Christians get
crosses, Jews get stars, Muslims get Crescents, and yes Atheists get Atheist
symbols. No preference is given, and there is no inference of government
endorsement of one religion, even though it's a public cemetery."

What are these Atheist symbols?

"In Utah, as posted earlier, American Atheists is part of a lawsuit to
remove blatantly illegal 12' crosses on the side of the road. Agree or
disagree with that if you will, but don't lie!"

Well if they are memorials to where people died why are THEY "blatantly
ILLEGAL" and yet the crosses on other government land are legal?

"In Utah, we are talking about 12' steel crosses ONLY, where there is no
body, where there is no grave, and where there is no cemetery. It's just an
excuse to put up a great big cross in full view, with full knowledge that
it's illegal."
What makes it illegal? Because there is no BODY there? Or because people
can VIEW it?

"Another thing we're getting is that crosses are not Christian symbols
rather universal symbols of mourning. Puh-lease! If you go to a Jewish
cemetery, do you see crosses? Muslim cemeteries? Do church parishioners get
on their knees in front of a universal symbol of mourning, or a uniquely
Christian Icon? To thine own self be true!"

Uh as we deal with this ***** rationalization bit - uh - yeas you CAN
see some "Crosses" in Jewish cemeteries. Ever hear of a "Messianic Jew?"
They are still Jewish even though they believe in Christ., <sigh> Isn't
intolerance and rigidity grand? It makes me feel like I am arguing with the
Klan!

"The death of a hero is not a reason to break the law, nor is it an excuse.
We FULLY SUPPORT the idea of memorials commemorating heroes, but obelisks,
plaques, or flower gardens would do the same thing without breaking the
law -- so why the religious symbols? Why only one brand of symbol? Why claim
that a giant cross isn't religious, when we all clearly know that's not
true?

And why distract the people with bogus reports about Arlington? Hmmm????"

Well we shall see IF the courts agree

thy name is Atheism. <sigh>

chaplains and the like.>>

All this would be great IF we could believe Atheists on what they say
they will NEVER do today that they DO tomorrow!

Hmm BIG difference there.

Yes, there is a difference.

Oh Carol give me a break. I said "burried OR killed" Clearly making TWO
places. And burried includes the objections to crosses at government owned
Cemeteries.

KP:> <<That is another statement NOT related directly to Utah, BUT
the American Atheists spokeman DID also "mention" crosses in
Cemeteries.>>
You have yet to name this alleged AA spokesman.

Actually it was Mike Rivers the head of American Atheists in Utah,

Oh. So, were you just wrong, or lying, when you claimed it was Bart
Meltzer?

It was RIVERS on TV, backed up by Meltzer who endorsed Rivers' comments.

Oh Carol they said "ALL" religious encroahment (symbols) and I pointed
out that Mr. Rivers was on the Hannity and Combs

Hannity & Colmes

Did you take over for Mike Newton in being the net spell cop?

Like I
said I don't watch that show enough to know the name spelling.

show and Hannity asked him if that meant crosses in Cemeteries and he
saisd "YES!" He then tried to
claim there were "no crosses in cemeteries" and Hannity had a viceo clip
run showing them at the cemeteries.

I checked the Hannity & Colmes, and there is no Mike Rivers mentioned in
their archives. Mike Rivers appeared on the O'Reilly Factor.

Okay then let's see THAT transcript Carol....

Mike Rivers was not on Hannity & Colmes. Check for yourself:

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,134671,00.html
The "search blank" is toward the bottom of the page.

Carol that "SEARCH" you decietful little girl is NOT a search of guests
on H&C.... It is a general web search. Want to TRY AGAIN?

"human" <human@csd.uwm.edu> wrote in message
news:Pine.OSF.3.96.1051216190636.9562H-100000@alpha1.csd.uwm.edu...

<<was asked if that included cemeteries on the Hannity and Combs show
on
Fox news. He said it most definitely did. You want the transcript ask
Fox
news. >>

He was also on Hannity and Colmes..

Where he DID say so in response to
a question by Hannity.

<<was asked if that included cemeteries on the Hannity and Combs show
on
Fox news. He said it most definitely did. You want the transcript ask
Fox
news. >>

Correction:

cs:> You are the one making the claim. It is up to you to provide data
which proves you are not misrepresenting what happened on the Hannity
and
Colmes show in the same way you misrepresented what Meltzer's
announcement
said. >
The fellow's name is Colmes, not Combs. Since Pangborn is such a big
fan
and watches the show, he should have known that.

NOT a big fan of Fox news, I usually prefer MSNBC... But Carol YOU can
look
it up if you care to dispute what he said.
Just go to the H&C show on FOXNEWS.COM and look up Mike Rivers as the
guest.

Mike Rivers was not on the Hannity & Colmes show.

He was on O'Reilly, and I watched that show.

cs> ---here is the quoted article. Show where it proves that any AA
representative stated that he has objections to crosses in
cemeteries.---<

Carol gets to self congratulation level 1 so soon..

<<Where it PROVES it?? OKAY..

<<"completely remove all religious encroachment from our government ">>

A religious symbol on a grave marker is not religious encroachment from
our government.

Neither is a cross on a roadside. But AA disagrees on both.

Yes, a honking large Latin Cross on the shoulder of a highway is religious
encroachment.