| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"words of truth" |
| Date: |
04 Nov 2005 04:43:35 AM |
| Object: |
No God at All: Western Humanism and the New Atheism |
http://tertius.blogspot.com/2004/10/new-atheism.html
No God at All: Western Humanism and the New Atheism
It is commonly assumed that atheism is the belief that there is no God,
and that an atheist is someone who believes there is no God. Most
atheists, however, reject these definitions. They point out that the
term atheism derives from the Greek a (not, without) and theos (God,
god), and conclude that atheism is simply the lack or absence of belief
in a God or gods. That is, an atheist does not necessarily deny the
existence of a God, but simply has no belief in the existence of a God.
George Smith, for example, asserts that in this sense both the man who
has never heard of the concept of God, and the child who is too young
to grasp the concept, are atheists. This claim is an old one: the
eighteenth-century atheist Baron D'Holbach wrote, All children are
atheists, they have no idea of God.
Atheists wish to secure two benefits from this redefinition of the term
atheism. First, by defining it as the lack of a belief, rather than a
belief itself, they wish to render atheism impervious to criticism. One
cannot criticize a non-position! On this basis atheists frequently
dismiss out of hand all claims that atheism is a dangerous or corrupt
philosophy, since it is not a philosophy at all, but merely the lack of
a particular philosophical concept. Second, atheists commonly argue
that since they lack a belief while theists are adhering to and
promoting their belief, the burden of proof rests fully on the theist
to make a case for belief in God. That is, the atheist has nothing to
justify, no belief to defend or substantiate; the burden of providing
justification or evidence rests solely on the theist. An atheist is in
the same position as someone who lacks belief in elves - they have
nothing to prove and no need to defend their belief, while the person
who does believe in elves is obliged, if he wants anyone else to take
his belief seriously, to provide some rational justification for that
belief. This is what Antony Flew, one of the leading atheist
philosophers of the twentieth century, called the presumption of
atheism.
The claim that atheism is not a position that needs to be defended is
rather odd, and strangely contradicted by atheists themselves. Take,
for example, B. C. Johnson, who repeats the standard claim that because
atheists merely have a lack of belief in God, they are not offering any
explanation of things which needs to be justified. Yet this claim comes
on the heels of the following statement about the purpose of his book:
For some time now atheists have been in need of firm grounds upon which
to base their position. George Smith actually entitles his book
Atheism: The Case Against God, which obviously implies that atheism is
a position that rejects belief in God.
The attempt to defend their unusual definition of atheism by etymology
misunderstands how the word was formed. Traditionally the term has been
construed as athe-ism, that is, the belief (-ism) that there is no God
(athe-), rather than as a-theism, the mere absence or lack of belief in
God. It is silly to define atheism in such a way that not only babies
(as is commonly claimed), but also animals and even inanimate objects,
would qualify as atheists - since all of these lack belief in God!
When atheists are not worrying about the definition, they commonly
speak of themselves as atheists with the clear understanding that the
term refers to people who have rejected the concept of God.
Of course, most atheists do not claim to know with certainty that there
is no God. Flew, for instance, is eager to say that atheists are not
"bigoted dogmatists" who are closed to the idea of God. Such dogmatic
atheism would leave itself wide open to the objection that one would
have to be omniscient to know that there was no God - so that in
effect one would have to be God to know there was no God!
Although atheists often deny espousing such a dogmatic atheism, they
frequently do end up asserting in quite dogmatic terms that God does
not or even cannot exist. George Smith, for example, writes, It is
logically impossible for god - a concept replete with absurdities and
contradictions - to have a referent in reality, just as it is
logically impossible for a square circle to exist. Given the attempts
to define god, we may now state - with certainty - that god does
not exist. This is actually a fairly common sentiment in the atheist
literature. The nineteenth-century atheist Annie Besant, for example,
admitted that to say "There is no God" would be irrational because it
would be asserting "a universal negative" which would require "perfect
knowledge" to justify. But it turns out that Besant allowed for the
possibility of a God unknown to her only if it is a finite entity in
some unknown place (say, "on the far side of Sirius"). If that God is
said to be an infinite being, she argued that such a God cannot exist
because the assertion of an infinite God is a "universal affirmative"
that is contradicted by the existence of anything (such as oneself)
that is not God.
Besant's argument, of course, misunderstands what theists mean by
describing God as "infinite." They mean, not that God is everything
(which would be pantheism, not theism), but that he is unbounded by
finite limitations of matter, energy, space, or time. In other words,
God is incorporeal, omnipotent, omnipresent, and eternal. These
characteristics imply that God is not part of the universe and
therefore is a concrete being distinct from everything else. Thus
Besant's denial of an infinite God really is a universal negative
after all.
Atheism, then, is a position which is often presented in a remarkably
double-minded way. Atheists claim not to have any belief about God, but
then vigorously deny that God could exist. Atheists deny that atheism
is a position that can or needs to be defended, but then offer
arguments in defense of atheism. Again, George Smith illustrates this
philosophical schizophrenia in unmistakable fashion. After arguing that
atheism is not a position or belief but a mere lack of belief in a god,
he changes gears in order to explain why atheism is significant: If
atheism is correct, man is alone. There is no god to think for him, to
watch out for him, to guarantee his happiness. These are the sole
responsibility of man. It is clear here that atheism is a philosophy,
or at least a basic worldview, after all. It is not merely a lack of
belief in certain postulated entities (like elves) but a view of the
world as self-existent and self-explanatory and of human life as
self-determining. Atheism is the belief that man is alone, that is,
that the living beings in this universe must fend for themselves
because there is no transcendent Creator or other supernatural beings
to help them or to hold them accountable for how they live.
Atheism therefore entails naturalism, the belief - as Carl Sagan
famously put it, The COSMOS is all there is, all there was, and all
there ever will be. For most atheists, atheism also entails secular
humanism, the belief that human beings must determine their own purpose
for life and must solve their own problems. For an atheist, the only
alternative to some such humanism is nihilism, the belief that life has
no purpose or meaning. While nihilism is a reasonable inference from
atheism, most atheists resist nihilism and argue for what Antony Flew
calls Atheistic Humanism: a positive philosophy of life that embraces
life as meaningful despite the lack of any divinely created purpose for
the human race. This is the philosophy of the Humanist Manifesto I
(1933), the Humanist Manifesto II (1973), and the Secular Humanist
Declaration (1980).
Given this basic worldview in which the natural cosmos is all that
exists and yet human life is held to be meaningful and purposeful,
atheists cannot legitimately place the burden of proof exclusively on
the theist. The modern atheist espouses a worldview in conscious
opposition to the theistic worldview that has dominated Western
civilization for about 1600 years, and they therefore bear some burden
of proof to show that there is no transcendent God responsible for the
existence and nature of the world and for the existence and meaning of
human life.
Kenneth Boa and Robert M. Bowman, Jr.
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| User: "Paul Duca" |
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| Title: Re: No God at All: Western Humanism and the New Atheism |
05 Nov 2005 04:09:31 AM |
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Or...just a God with no interest in us.
Paul
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| User: "minus" |
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| Title: Re: No God at All: Western Humanism and the New Atheism |
07 Nov 2005 09:52:33 AM |
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"I don't belief that other people are subjects, that they experience.
I do know that I do, but I have no opinion and have no belief about
others."
Does this need defending?
"I don't belief that I exist. I have no proof and have no opinion:"
Does this need defending?
The choice to be a non-believer about some things and not about others
implies - and if one is honest - is founded on belief. It is also
found on beliefs about epistomology. This is something I can know.
This is something I cannot. And for these reasons.
I do not think you can evade defending the position.
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| User: "Shark school missionaries" |
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| Title: Re: No God at All: Western Humanism and the New Atheism |
04 Nov 2005 09:22:58 AM |
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"words of truth" <wordsoftruth@hoshmail.com> suddenly spluttered:
It is commonly assumed that atheism is the belief that there is no God,
and that an atheist is someone who believes there is no God.
I don't have to believe anything. There is enough knowledge to replace
the patently absurd concept of god with far better explanations for
all the known facts I heve ever, or ever seem likely to encounter.
Even if there wasn't one is still left with the utter absurdity of it
all.
Tell me, TurdsofWrath, why do people who defend God always have to
tell such wicked lies in order to do so? (Cites? all your postings).
------------------------------------------------
Conflict over the exact will/purpose/nature of God cannot ever be
resolved, since there are no facts to go on.
D Silverman FLAHN, SMLAHN
AA #2208
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| User: "Lizz Holmans" |
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| Title: Re: No God at All: Western Humanism and the New Atheism |
04 Nov 2005 11:38:12 AM |
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On Fri, 04 Nov 2005 09:22:58 +0000, Shark school missionaries
<yournamehere@martyrdom.org> wrote:
Tell me, TurdsofWrath, why do people who defend God always have to
tell such wicked lies in order to do so? (Cites? all your postings).
Thee has overlooked me.
Lizz 'and may do so if thee has posted to newsgroups I don't read, cos
I trim them. Posting to newsgroups one doesn't read makes Baby Jesus
cry' Holmans
--
I was too far out all my life
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| User: "Therion Ware" |
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| Title: Re: No God at All: Western Humanism and the New Atheism |
04 Nov 2005 12:18:04 PM |
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On Fri, 04 Nov 2005 11:38:12 +0000 in alt.atheism, Lizz Holmans (Lizz
Holmans <dillo@jackalope.demon.co.uk>) said, directing the reply to
alt.atheism
On Fri, 04 Nov 2005 09:22:58 +0000, Shark school missionaries
<yournamehere@martyrdom.org> wrote:
Tell me, TurdsofWrath, why do people who defend God always have to
tell such wicked lies in order to do so? (Cites? all your postings).
Thee has overlooked me.
Lizz 'and may do so if thee has posted to newsgroups I don't read, cos
I trim them. Posting to newsgroups one doesn't read makes Baby Jesus
cry' Holmans
Heh. I would have thought that the majority of the history of
Christianity more or less amounts to the metaphorical equivalent of
"posting to newsgroups one doesn't read".
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: No God at All: Western Humanism and the New Atheism |
04 Nov 2005 10:41:08 PM |
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For some time now atheists have been in need of firm grounds upon
which to base their position.
It seems to me that some religionists, such as yourself, want to think
that their belief system is 'the one true reality' upon which all true
religions are based and that all theists believe in the one thing. In
creating this unified view, which fails to actually exist, they want to
also think that all non-theists are similar unified. Perhaps you can't
cope with anything more complicated.
It seems that you would prefer to divide the world into two groups:
those that believe the same as you do, ie the 'theists', and those that
are 'atheists'. Then it is only a matter of one group being 'right' and
the other 'wrong'. That may be useful for simple minds.
As you probably believe that you are 'right' then it is only necessary
(in your fantasies) to convince the others they are 'wrong'.
What you fail to notice, probably through deliberate lack of education,
is that there have been and are thousands of religions, each with their
own special deities, most of which are distinct and imcompatible with
the others. Even those that are nominally derived from the same base
have diverged to the point where the theology is incompatible.
You probably have just one 'god' in mind that you think should be
believed in and ignore or deny all the other 'gods' of all the other
religions. In fact that makes you 'atheistic' with respect to all those
other gods.
Are you willing to 'prove' that Woden did not exist, or Baal Zebub ? or
that the Spaghetti Monster does not ? Yet you seem to think that it is
necessary for some to 'prove' that your deity does not.
In fact I believe in all of the gods and goddesses, or at least most of
them, some may have been entirely fictional: Zeus, Herohito, Woden,
Bhrama, Chin, the Canaanite El and his sons Jehovah and Baalim. All
were most likely real people: charismatic leaders, warlords, tribal
chiefs, battle heroes. Of course I don't _deify_ them, I don't give
them magic, or supernatural powers, they are not aliens or comic book
superheros.
They have been _portrayed_ as having supernatural powers, just as many
other leaders have been in recent times: Edi Amin, Hitler, Pol Pot, Kim
il Sung, and many others to various degrees. Even Alexander is still
considered a deified god in some parts.
atheism also entails secular humanism, the belief that human beings
must determine their own purpose for life and must solve their own
problems.
Having actually looked at some of the very many incompatible alternates
offered by the hundreds of diverse religions, cults, and loonies, I
would say that this is the only realistic choice. Would you have us
sitting around like the Raelians waiting for aliens to carry us to
safety ? Or like Jim Jones to drink the koolaide ? Or have the Mulim
purpose (of some) of making the whole world population as muslim - or
dead ? Or sacrifice babies or virgins ?
atheists cannot legitimately place the burden of proof exclusively on
the theist.
I really don't care whether you believe in the tooth fairy, santa
claus, or your own special brand of pixie dust. I place no 'burden of
proof' on you at all for anything, as long as you don't try to run my
life, or the lives of other theists who have differing views and gods.
If you want to force your philosophy down my throat by having it taught
in schools or made into laws or even if you (or other different
theists) want to knock on my door and sell me magazines then you must
either show why your space pixie is better than everyone else's space
pixe or just bugger off.
Western civilization for about 1600 years, and they therefore bear
some burden of proof to show that there is no transcendent God
responsible for the existence and nature of the world and for the
existence and meaning of human life.
That is actually 'Western EUROPEAN civilization' since the Romans
invented their form of christianity. If you are in America then what
are you doing to _PROVE_ that the native american religions and deities
are not real ? Or do you just dismiss them as pagan nonsense based on
worship of deified ancestor leaders and chiefs ?
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| User: "Mani Deli" |
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| Title: Re: No God at All: Western Humanism and the New Atheism |
07 Nov 2005 10:02:48 PM |
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On 3 Nov 2005 20:43:35 -0800, "words of truth"
<wordsoftruth@hoshmail.com> wrote:
http://tertius.blogspot.com/2004/10/new-atheism.html
Given this basic worldview in which the natural cosmos is all that
exists and yet human life is held to be meaningful and purposeful,
Human life is'nt meaningful and purposeful. The terms a wishy washy!
What Meaning and purpose, you tell us?,
atheists cannot legitimately place the burden of proof exclusively on
the theist. The modern atheist espouses a worldview in conscious
opposition to the theistic worldview that has dominated Western
civilization for about 1600 years, and they therefore bear some burden
of proof to show that there is no transcendent God responsible for the
existence and nature of the world and for the existence and meaning of
human life.
I don't bare any resposibity. When someone prooves that Zuess doesn't
exist I'll use his proof to show that no gods exist.
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| User: "MarkA" |
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| Title: Re: No God at All: Western Humanism and the New Atheism |
04 Nov 2005 01:05:21 PM |
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On Thu, 03 Nov 2005 20:43:35 -0800, words of truth wrote:
http://tertius.blogspot.com/2004/10/new-atheism.html
No God at All: Western Humanism and the New Atheism
It is commonly assumed that atheism is the belief that there is no God,
and that an atheist is someone who believes there is no God. Most
atheists, however, reject these definitions. They point out that the term
atheism derives from the Greek a (not, without) and theos (God, god), and
conclude that atheism is simply the lack or absence of belief in a God or
gods. That is, an atheist does not necessarily deny the existence of a
God, but simply has no belief in the existence of a God. George Smith, for
example, asserts that in this sense both the man who has never heard of
the concept of God, and the child who is too young to grasp the concept,
are atheists. This claim is an old one: the eighteenth-century atheist
Baron D'Holbach wrote, All children are atheists, they have no idea of
God.
OK so far...
Atheists wish to secure two benefits from this redefinition of the term
atheism. First, by defining it as the lack of a belief, rather than a
belief itself, they wish to render atheism impervious to criticism. One
cannot criticize a non-position! On this basis atheists frequently dismiss
out of hand all claims that atheism is a dangerous or corrupt philosophy,
since it is not a philosophy at all, but merely the lack of a particular
philosophical concept. Second, atheists commonly argue that since they
lack a belief while theists are adhering to and promoting their belief,
the burden of proof rests fully on the theist to make a case for belief in
God. That is, the atheist has nothing to justify, no belief to defend or
substantiate; the burden of providing justification or evidence rests
solely on the theist. An atheist is in the same position as someone who
lacks belief in elves - they have nothing to prove and no need to defend
their belief, while the person who does believe in elves is obliged, if he
wants anyone else to take his belief seriously, to provide some rational
justification for that belief. This is what Antony Flew, one of the
leading atheist philosophers of the twentieth century, called the
presumption of atheism.
Still OK...
The claim that atheism is not a position that needs to be defended is
rather odd, and strangely contradicted by atheists themselves. Take, for
example, B. C. Johnson, who repeats the standard claim that because
atheists merely have a lack of belief in God, they are not offering any
explanation of things which needs to be justified. Yet this claim comes on
the heels of the following statement about the purpose of his book: For
some time now atheists have been in need of firm grounds upon which to
base their position. George Smith actually entitles his book Atheism: The
Case Against God, which obviously implies that atheism is a position that
rejects belief in God.
What this title obviously implies is that Smith objects to the assumption
that God exists. But we already knew that.
The attempt to defend their unusual definition of atheism by etymology
misunderstands how the word was formed. Traditionally the term has been
construed as athe-ism, that is, the belief (-ism) that there is no God
(athe-), rather than as a-theism, the mere absence or lack of belief in
God. It is silly to define atheism in such a way that not only babies
(as is commonly claimed), but also animals and even inanimate objects,
would qualify as atheists - since all of these lack belief in God! When
atheists are not worrying about the definition, they commonly speak of
themselves as atheists with the clear understanding that the term refers
to people who have rejected the concept of God.
Most atheists that I know speak of themselves as people who lack belief in
gods. We are, of course, quite accustomed to having theists try to impose
a narrow definition of atheism, and then attack that definition. I
believe that is called the "Strawman fallacy".
Of course, most atheists do not claim to know with certainty that there
is no God. Flew, for instance, is eager to say that atheists are not
"bigoted dogmatists" who are closed to the idea of God. Such dogmatic
atheism would leave itself wide open to the objection that one would
have to be omniscient to know that there was no God - so that in effect
one would have to be God to know there was no God!
Certainly, if an omnipotent being did exist, It would be quite capable of
concealing its existence from the likes of us. Therefore, claiming that
an omnipotent being does not, in fact, exist is a clearly untenable
position.
Although atheists often deny espousing such a dogmatic atheism, they
frequently do end up asserting in quite dogmatic terms that God does not
or even cannot exist. George Smith, for example, writes, It is logically
impossible for god - a concept replete with absurdities and
contradictions - to have a referent in reality, just as it is logically
impossible for a square circle to exist. Given the attempts to define
god, we may now state - with certainty - that god does not exist. This
is actually a fairly common sentiment in the atheist literature. The
nineteenth-century atheist Annie Besant, for example, admitted that to
say "There is no God" would be irrational because it would be asserting
"a universal negative" which would require "perfect knowledge" to
justify. But it turns out that Besant allowed for the possibility of a
God unknown to her only if it is a finite entity in some unknown place
(say, "on the far side of Sirius"). If that God is said to be an
infinite being, she argued that such a God cannot exist because the
assertion of an infinite God is a "universal affirmative" that is
contradicted by the existence of anything (such as oneself) that is not
God.
People can, and have, argued at great lengths over a precise definition of
God and his properties. Unfortunately, most of the definitions include
the provision that He cannot be comprehended by mere mortals. Ergo, it is
pointless to try to debate His existence when you start with the
assumption that He cannot be defined, and His presence cannot be tested.
Besant's argument, of course, misunderstands what theists mean by
describing God as "infinite." They mean, not that God is everything
(which would be pantheism, not theism), but that he is unbounded by
finite limitations of matter, energy, space, or time. In other words,
God is incorporeal, omnipotent, omnipresent, and eternal. These
characteristics imply that God is not part of the universe and therefore
is a concrete being distinct from everything else. Thus Besant's denial
of an infinite God really is a universal negative after all.
Atheism, then, is a position which is often presented in a remarkably
double-minded way. Atheists claim not to have any belief about God, but
"No belief *about* God?" Where did that come from? Oh, I
forgot...strawman.
then vigorously deny that God could exist. Atheists deny that atheism is
a position that can or needs to be defended, but then offer arguments in
defense of atheism. Again, George Smith illustrates this philosophical
It is not unreasonable to have a rational for rejecting a notion that is
so prevalent.
schizophrenia in unmistakable fashion. After arguing that atheism is not
a position or belief but a mere lack of belief in a god, he changes
gears in order to explain why atheism is significant: If atheism is
correct, man is alone. There is no god to think for him, to watch out
for him, to guarantee his happiness. These are the sole responsibility
of man. It is clear here that atheism is a philosophy, or at least a
basic worldview, after all. It is not merely a lack of belief in certain
postulated entities (like elves) but a view of the world as
self-existent and self-explanatory and of human life as
self-determining. Atheism is the belief that man is alone, that is, that
the living beings in this universe must fend for themselves because
there is no transcendent Creator or other supernatural beings to help
them or to hold them accountable for how they live.
Yes, these are some of the implications of atheism, but not part of the
definition of it.
Atheism therefore entails naturalism, the belief - as Carl Sagan
famously put it, The COSMOS is all there is, all there was, and all
there ever will be. For most atheists, atheism also entails secular
humanism, the belief that human beings must determine their own purpose
for life and must solve their own problems. For an atheist, the only
alternative to some such humanism is nihilism, the belief that life has
no purpose or meaning. While nihilism is a reasonable inference from
atheism, most atheists resist nihilism and argue for what Antony Flew
calls Atheistic Humanism: a positive philosophy of life that embraces
life as meaningful despite the lack of any divinely created purpose for
the human race. This is the philosophy of the Humanist Manifesto I
(1933), the Humanist Manifesto II (1973), and the Secular Humanist
Declaration (1980).
OK, you're making sense again....keep it up...
Given this basic worldview in which the natural cosmos is all that
exists and yet human life is held to be meaningful and purposeful,
atheists cannot legitimately place the burden of proof exclusively on
the theist. The modern atheist espouses a worldview in conscious
opposition to the theistic worldview that has dominated Western
civilization for about 1600 years, and they therefore bear some burden
of proof to show that there is no transcendent God responsible for the
existence and nature of the world and for the existence and meaning of
human life.
If there were a god, he would certainly be capable of demonstrating his
existence to the world. If he does not wish to be known, he would
certainly be able to conceal himself with 100% effectiveness. From our
perspective, this would be indistinguishable from a god that does not
exist at all.
People who *already* believe in god claim to have "proof" of his
existence, yet the proofs offered are inconclusive at best, and often
downright silly. Yet the theists insist that we are being unreasonable
for not accepting their so-called evidence.
It is already well established that people have a natural tendency to make
up stories about things they don't understand. Most every culture has
beliefs in supernatural beings that cause the world to be as it is. An
important part of atheism is having the intellectual integrity to
recognize that just because a belief is comforting and widespread, it is
not necessarily true. It was not so very long ago that Brunno was
tortured to death for believing that it was possible for life to exist
somewhere besides Earth. Theists don't like being told they are wrong.
Atheists expect it.
Kenneth Boa and Robert M. Bowman, Jr.
Tweedle-dum and Tweedle-duh?
--
MarkA
(still caught in the maze of twisty little passages, all different)
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| User: "Dustin" |
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| Title: Re: No God at All: Western Humanism and the New Atheism |
04 Nov 2005 06:23:12 PM |
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Bravo!
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| User: "Ordog" |
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| Title: Re: No God at All: Western Humanism and the New Atheism |
04 Nov 2005 11:09:42 AM |
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words of truth wrote:
<Yak>
Given this basic worldview in which the natural cosmos is all that
exists and yet human life is held to be meaningful and purposeful,
atheists cannot legitimately place the burden of proof exclusively on
the theist. The modern atheist espouses a worldview in conscious
opposition to the theistic worldview that has dominated Western
civilization for about 1600 years, and they therefore bear some burden
of proof to show that there is no transcendent God responsible for the
existence and nature of the world and for the existence and meaning of
human life.
So you are upset that atheists do not have to prove a thing. You want
us desperately to prove there is no god.
Tell you what... as soon as you are able bring absolute and independent
proof of god's existence we will provide you with the absolute and
independent proof that it does not exsit! Is it a deal?
You must know by now that atheists strive to please xtians! :)
Ordog
"Beware of the man whose God is in the skies." Bernard Shaw
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| User: "Lizz Holmans" |
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| Title: Re: No God at All: Western Humanism and the New Atheism |
04 Nov 2005 11:43:09 AM |
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On 4 Nov 2005 03:09:42 -0800, "Ordog" <odbok001@sneakemail.com> wrote:
You must know by now that atheists strive to please xtians! :)
Mine had better, or no more home-made Yorkshire puddings for my caro
sposo.
Lizz 'Please me, that is. I don't care what he believes as long as
*that's* taken care of.
--
I was too far out all my life
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| User: "Therion Ware" |
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| Title: Re: No God at All: Western Humanism and the New Atheism |
04 Nov 2005 12:33:24 PM |
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On Fri, 04 Nov 2005 11:43:09 +0000 in alt.atheism, Lizz Holmans (Lizz
Holmans <dillo@jackalope.demon.co.uk>) said, directing the reply to
alt.atheism
On 4 Nov 2005 03:09:42 -0800, "Ordog" <odbok001@sneakemail.com> wrote:
You must know by now that atheists strive to please xtians! :)
Mine had better, or no more home-made Yorkshire puddings for my caro
sposo.
Do they all rise? It may be superstition, but I have only one oven in
which they consistently work.
If so, forget all this eternal life stuff and tell me *the* secret!
Lizz 'Please me, that is. I don't care what he believes as long as
*that's* taken care of.
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| User: "Lizz Holmans" |
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| Title: Re: No God at All: Western Humanism and the New Atheism |
04 Nov 2005 02:08:20 PM |
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On Fri, 04 Nov 2005 12:33:24 +0000, Therion Ware
<autodelete@city-of-dis.com> wrote:
On Fri, 04 Nov 2005 11:43:09 +0000 in alt.atheism, Lizz Holmans (Lizz
Holmans <dillo@jackalope.demon.co.uk>) said, directing the reply to
alt.atheism
Do they all rise? It may be superstition, but I have only one oven in
which they consistently work.
My dear, they practically raise the roof.
Are you sure your batter is just-from-the-fridge cold? It should chill
for at least one hour. Whisk it again just before you pour them into
the pans, but don't let them warm up at all.
Are you using meat dripping (the one true way to Yorkshire is slicked
with beef dripping)? Make sure it's sizzling hot before you add the
batter.
Then *immediately* pop them into a hot oven (450 deg.Fahrenheit) for
ten minutes--after the first ten, lower the thermostat to about 400
for about 15-20 minutes. The first 10 minutes really give it the oven
spring you're looking for. And no peeking unless you smell burning.
My caro sposo married me cos I was the only American who ever made the
puds correctly. Or was it that I was the only one who asked him?
Lizz 'some things are not meant to be known by (wo)men' Holmans
--
I was too far out all my life
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| User: "Therion Ware" |
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| Title: Re: No God at All: Western Humanism and the New Atheism |
06 Nov 2005 12:45:36 PM |
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On Fri, 04 Nov 2005 14:08:20 +0000 in alt.atheism, Lizz Holmans (Lizz
Holmans <dillo@jackalope.demon.co.uk>) said, directing the reply to
alt.atheism
On Fri, 04 Nov 2005 12:33:24 +0000, Therion Ware
<autodelete@city-of-dis.com> wrote:
On Fri, 04 Nov 2005 11:43:09 +0000 in alt.atheism, Lizz Holmans (Lizz
Holmans <dillo@jackalope.demon.co.uk>) said, directing the reply to
alt.atheism
Do they all rise? It may be superstition, but I have only one oven in
which they consistently work.
My dear, they practically raise the roof.
<mumble><curse>
Mind you, I do get a lot of emails about that kind of thing.
Are you sure your batter is just-from-the-fridge cold?
Possibly not. I will run a test later and post some photos. Before,
during , and after. You have been warned!
It should chill
for at least one hour. Whisk it again just before you pour them into
the pans, but don't let them warm up at all.
But the oil in the pan tray should be really hot, and the pouring must
be done as quickly as possible?
Are you using meat dripping (the one true way to Yorkshire is slicked
with beef dripping)? Make sure it's sizzling hot before you add the
batter.
Ah. Right then. Asked and answered!
Then *immediately* pop them into a hot oven (450 deg.Fahrenheit)
Fahrenheit? 232 degrees centigrade, or better yet 505 Kelvin. But the
real question here to my mind to the *kind* of oven you have.
You need an even heat. I have a Panasonic Dimension 4 in the garage
that does this *really* well, but when I upgraded - well, the results
were crap.
for
ten minutes--after the first ten, lower the thermostat to about 400
for about 15-20 minutes. The first 10 minutes really give it the oven
spring you're looking for. And no peeking unless you smell burning.
Nah. That kind of thing has never bothered me: you should see my
cabling layout, escape route, and household insurance policy....
Besides, glass window in the oven!
My caro sposo married me cos I was the only American
You are an American?! Well, if you'll forgive my French - "knock me
down and ***** me backwards".... I had you totally pegged as, well,
something else entirely.
who ever made the
puds correctly. Or was it that I was the only one who asked him?
Lizz 'some things are not meant to be known by (wo)men' Holmans
I can tell you how to make a excellent beef Wellington, if you like!
But - and it's a BIG but, shouldn't a proper YORKSHIRE pudding be one
big one as opposed to the mini versions?
Best
TW.
--
"Do Unto Others As You Would Have Them Do Unto You."
- Attrib: Pauline Reage.
#442. www.video2cd.co.uk. Your 8mm films on DVD.
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| User: "Lizz Holmans" |
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| Title: Re: No God at All: Western Humanism and the New Atheism |
06 Nov 2005 03:31:41 PM |
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On Sun, 06 Nov 2005 12:45:36 +0000, Therion Ware
<autodelete@city-of-dis.com> wrote:
Fahrenheit? 232 degrees centigrade, or better yet 505 Kelvin. But the
real question here to my mind to the *kind* of oven you have.
How about 'gas mark 6'?
The oven came with the house. I can't tell you a thing about brand
names except that it's fan-assisted.
You need an even heat. I have a Panasonic Dimension 4 in the garage
that does this *really* well, but when I upgraded - well, the results
were crap.
We *told* you not to buy from Microsoft.
Nah. That kind of thing has never bothered me: you should see my
cabling layout, escape route, and household insurance policy....
Besides, glass window in the oven!
Me too, but that implies cleaning it often enough to see through. I
can't be doing all that. Much too lazy. Sloth is my second favorite
deadly sin.
You are an American?! Well, if you'll forgive my French - "knock me
down and ***** me backwards".... I had you totally pegged as, well,
something else entirely.
Dutch? Armenian? Samoan, as in 'I want Samoan that great Yorkshire
pudding?'
I can tell you how to make a excellent beef Wellington, if you like!
Oh, my caro sposo did that once from Xmas. It seems to be a male
thing, playing with their meat.
But - and it's a BIG but, shouldn't a proper YORKSHIRE pudding be one
big one as opposed to the mini versions?
All the ones I've seen Over Here have been baked in separate pans. But
there's no law agin it--however, it won't rise nearly so high as the
ones cooked individually. Oop North we use an outfit sort of like a
muffin (for American values of muffin), but just larger. Mine makes 4
at a time.
Best of British luck.
Lizz 'I miss Oklahoma--it's a great place to be from' Holmans
--
I was too far out all my life
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| User: "Lizz Holmans" |
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| Title: Re: No God at All: Western Humanism and the New Atheism |
06 Nov 2005 04:03:29 PM |
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On Sun, 06 Nov 2005 15:31:41 +0000, Lizz Holmans
<dillo@jackalope.demon.co.uk> wrote:
Oh, and use 2 eggs. 1 isn't enough to rise and 3 makes them taste too
eggy.
Lizz 'sorry about the follow-up, but Yorkshire pudding is *important*'
Holmans
--
I was too far out all my life
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| User: "Matt Silberstein" |
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| Title: Re: No God at All: Western Humanism and the New Atheism |
07 Nov 2005 02:35:10 PM |
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On Sun, 06 Nov 2005 16:03:29 +0000, in alt.atheism , Lizz Holmans
<dillo@jackalope.demon.co.uk> in
<l7asm1lmeh6a9v4qgs28e2e3p03q8fk9ru@4ax.com> wrote:
On Sun, 06 Nov 2005 15:31:41 +0000, Lizz Holmans
<dillo@jackalope.demon.co.uk> wrote:
Oh, and use 2 eggs. 1 isn't enough to rise and 3 makes them taste too
eggy.
Lizz 'sorry about the follow-up, but Yorkshire pudding is *important*'
Holmans
Full recipe please. I'll never get it right (getting our oven to do
anything rational is a surprise), but a person's reach and all that.
--
Matt Silberstein
Do something today about the Darfur Genocide
http://www.beawitness.org
http://www.darfurgenocide.org
http://www.savedarfur.org
"Darfur: A Genocide We can Stop"
.
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| User: "Lizz Holmans" |
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| Title: Re: No God at All: Western Humanism and the New Atheism |
07 Nov 2005 03:30:51 PM |
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On Mon, 07 Nov 2005 14:35:10 GMT, Matt Silberstein
<RemoveThisPrefixmatts2nospam@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
Full recipe please. I'll never get it right (getting our oven to do
anything rational is a surprise), but a person's reach and all that.
First, catch your cow and select a good roasting cut. I like rump
roast, cos I know you are what you eat. 3 lbs or so for a normal-sized
family. I like to roast my rump at 350 F for about an hour.Preheat
oven.
Take the roast out of the fridge to warm up a little. In the meantime,
grab the milk and eggs.
1 cup flour
1cup milk
2 eggs
1 tsp. salt.
Mix with a wire whisk until it's all combined and leaves large bubbles
on the top. Cover with foil and put back in the fridge for at least 1
hour.
About 20 minutes before the roast is done, remove it from the oven.
Carefully pour enough beef dripping into each pan to a depth of about
1/8 inch.
Raise the oven temp to 450 degrees F. before you do the pouring. I
forgot. Replace pan into oven to make sure the dripping is really,
really hot.
Take the batter out of the fridge, mix it up again, and immediately
pour it into the pans on top of the drippings. It should be very, very
cold.
Replace roast in hot oven. Put pudding pan in oven on a higher shelf,
but leave room for expansion. Bake ten minutes. Remove roast and let
it rest. Turn the heat down to about 400 and cook puds for another
15-20 minutes. Peeking is only allowed at the very end, to make sure
they don't burn. They should be high, broad, and dark gold brown, with
centers that are gold and barely firm.
Serve immediately with gravy made from leftover drippings.
If you fail, try, try again. Use a light hand when mixing.
If you don't eat meat or gravy, this is the exact same recipe used for
popovers. Great for breakfast with lots of butter and honey.
You might like my challah recipe, too. Google in
alt.folklore.urban--it's been a few years , but I hope it's still
there. It's to die for.
Lizz 'bringing a little Heaven to theists, atheists, apatheists, and
assorted heathens for years' Holmans
--
I was too far out all my life
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| User: "Siobhan Burke" |
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| Title: Re: No God at All: Western Humanism and the New Atheism |
11 Nov 2005 11:11:11 AM |
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In article <v2rum1lfrui3r5fl8lrnjvrdpkofs0nt59@4ax.com>,
dillo@jackalope.demon.co.uk says...
On Mon, 07 Nov 2005 14:35:10 GMT, Matt Silberstein
<RemoveThisPrefixmatts2nospam@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
Full recipe please. I'll never get it right (getting our oven to do
anything rational is a surprise), but a person's reach and all that.
First, catch your cow and select a good roasting cut. I like rump
roast, cos I know you are what you eat. 3 lbs or so for a normal-sized
family. I like to roast my rump at 350 F for about an hour.Preheat
oven.
Take the roast out of the fridge to warm up a little. In the meantime,
grab the milk and eggs.
1 cup flour
1cup milk
2 eggs
1 tsp. salt.
Mix with a wire whisk until it's all combined and leaves large bubbles
on the top. Cover with foil and put back in the fridge for at least 1
hour.
About 20 minutes before the roast is done, remove it from the oven.
Carefully pour enough beef dripping into each pan to a depth of about
1/8 inch.
Raise the oven temp to 450 degrees F. before you do the pouring. I
forgot. Replace pan into oven to make sure the dripping is really,
really hot.
Take the batter out of the fridge, mix it up again, and immediately
pour it into the pans on top of the drippings. It should be very, very
cold.
Replace roast in hot oven. Put pudding pan in oven on a higher shelf,
but leave room for expansion. Bake ten minutes. Remove roast and let
it rest. Turn the heat down to about 400 and cook puds for another
15-20 minutes. Peeking is only allowed at the very end, to make sure
they don't burn. They should be high, broad, and dark gold brown, with
centers that are gold and barely firm.
Serve immediately with gravy made from leftover drippings.
If you fail, try, try again. Use a light hand when mixing.
If you don't eat meat or gravy, this is the exact same recipe used for
popovers. Great for breakfast with lots of butter and honey.
It also makes great Toad in a Hole. Trust me.
You might like my challah recipe, too. Google in
alt.folklore.urban--it's been a few years , but I hope it's still
there. It's to die for.
Lizz 'bringing a little Heaven to theists, atheists, apatheists, and
assorted heathens for years' Holmans
--
Siobhan - a.a. #2201
siobhan.burke@CARRIERatt.net
Drop CARRIER to email
"But as a general rule, when things look bad there's always some
***** who can make them worse." -- Terry Pratchett
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| User: "Matt Silberstein" |
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| Title: Re: No God at All: Western Humanism and the New Atheism |
07 Nov 2005 05:09:57 PM |
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On Mon, 07 Nov 2005 15:30:51 +0000, in alt.atheism , Lizz Holmans
<dillo@jackalope.demon.co.uk> in
<v2rum1lfrui3r5fl8lrnjvrdpkofs0nt59@4ax.com> wrote:
On Mon, 07 Nov 2005 14:35:10 GMT, Matt Silberstein
<RemoveThisPrefixmatts2nospam@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
Full recipe please. I'll never get it right (getting our oven to do
anything rational is a surprise), but a person's reach and all that.
First, catch your cow and select a good roasting cut. I like rump
roast, cos I know you are what you eat. 3 lbs or so for a normal-sized
family. I like to roast my rump at 350 F for about an hour.Preheat
oven.
Take the roast out of the fridge to warm up a little. In the meantime,
grab the milk and eggs.
1 cup flour
1cup milk
2 eggs
1 tsp. salt.
Mix with a wire whisk until it's all combined and leaves large bubbles
on the top. Cover with foil and put back in the fridge for at least 1
hour.
About 20 minutes before the roast is done, remove it from the oven.
Carefully pour enough beef dripping into each pan to a depth of about
1/8 inch.
Raise the oven temp to 450 degrees F. before you do the pouring. I
forgot. Replace pan into oven to make sure the dripping is really,
really hot.
Take the batter out of the fridge, mix it up again, and immediately
pour it into the pans on top of the drippings. It should be very, very
cold.
Replace roast in hot oven. Put pudding pan in oven on a higher shelf,
but leave room for expansion. Bake ten minutes. Remove roast and let
it rest. Turn the heat down to about 400 and cook puds for another
15-20 minutes. Peeking is only allowed at the very end, to make sure
they don't burn. They should be high, broad, and dark gold brown, with
centers that are gold and barely firm.
Serve immediately with gravy made from leftover drippings.
If you fail, try, try again. Use a light hand when mixing.
If you don't eat meat or gravy, this is the exact same recipe used for
popovers. Great for breakfast with lots of butter and honey.
You might like my challah recipe, too. Google in
alt.folklore.urban--it's been a few years , but I hope it's still
there. It's to die for.
Lizz 'bringing a little Heaven to theists, atheists, apatheists, and
assorted heathens for years' Holmans
If my oven could hold a roast and another pan at the same time I would
try this. Here is my only question: I have trouble with that light
hand bit, do you think I could get away with pastry flour or a mix of
regular and pastry? Is it worth even trying?
--
Matt Silberstein
Do something today about the Darfur Genocide
http://www.beawitness.org
http://www.darfurgenocide.org
http://www.savedarfur.org
"Darfur: A Genocide We can Stop"
.
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| User: "Lizz Holmans" |
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| Title: Re: No God at All: Western Humanism and the New Atheism |
07 Nov 2005 06:51:46 PM |
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On Mon, 07 Nov 2005 17:09:57 GMT, Matt Silberstein
<RemoveThisPrefixmatts2nospam@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
If my oven could hold a roast and another pan at the same time I would
try this. Here is my only question: I have trouble with that light
hand bit, do you think I could get away with pastry flour or a mix of
regular and pastry? Is it worth even trying?
I've always used regular flour, so I dunno. You wouldn't get the same
texture or sturdiness that a goog pudding needs.
When I say 'light hand' I mean 'don't beat it to death'. You don't
want the gluten to develop too much--that turns batter breads (wot
this is) into hockey pucks.
Lizz 'and then a fight will break out' Holmans
--
I was too far out all my life
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| User: "Christopher A. Lee" |
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| Title: Re: No God at All: Western Humanism and the New Atheism |
07 Nov 2005 03:35:52 PM |
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On Mon, 07 Nov 2005 14:35:10 GMT, Matt Silberstein
<RemoveThisPrefixmatts2nospam@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
On Sun, 06 Nov 2005 16:03:29 +0000, in alt.atheism , Lizz Holmans
<dillo@jackalope.demon.co.uk> in
<l7asm1lmeh6a9v4qgs28e2e3p03q8fk9ru@4ax.com> wrote:
On Sun, 06 Nov 2005 15:31:41 +0000, Lizz Holmans
<dillo@jackalope.demon.co.uk> wrote:
Oh, and use 2 eggs. 1 isn't enough to rise and 3 makes them taste too
eggy.
Lizz 'sorry about the follow-up, but Yorkshire pudding is *important*'
Holmans
Full recipe please. I'll never get it right (getting our oven to do
anything rational is a surprise), but a person's reach and all that.
It's just an egg batter with a bit of milk and salt but there are
several tricks.
Don't use a mixer.
Sieve the flour to remove lumps , shake it from the sieve into the
bowl and depress the centre of the flour.
At this stage the trick is not to break the surface of the flour.
Break the eggs into the depression and ***** the yolks with a fork,
without breaking through to the flour.
Fold them in the old fashioned pre-mixer way in by rolling them with a
fork around the depression, without breaking the surface of the flour.
This picks up individual flour grains and mixes them into what becomes
the batter, without creating any lumps.
As the egg/flour mixture thickens, add a little bit of milk and carry
on as before without breaking the surface of the flour.
Keep doing this, adding more milk as necessary until all the flour is
folded in.
Inevitably the final stages will create a few lumps as the flour
leaves the surface of the bowl.
Use the fork to remove them, like a sieve. If you try to break them
the lumps just get smaller.
Now beat the batter to get some air in it.
Cover it and put it in the fridge for about an hour.
When you're ready to cook it, put (preferably beef dripping) but if
you're health conscious your favourite cooking oil, into a baking
dish. Beef dripping tastes best though.
To cook it, the oven must be hot already, and the dish/oil/dripping
already at oven temperature at oven temperature - which is the same as
the beef you are roasting.
Bake it "until it is done".
I haven't given times or quantities. These are a matter of taste. A
thicker batter makes a heavier pudding, and longer cooking makes
the puffy edges crisper. It rises a lot at the sides because it is the
hottest part of the metal dish.
You can make a single pudding in a baking dish or individual ones in a
muffin pan - which are puffier.
Good luck.
Alternatively you can get a Yorkshire Pudding mix at your local
gourmet store. These aren't as good, but they're a lot less work. You
can use a mixture because they have anti-clumping agents. In which
case the trick is don't over-beat.
I prefer the old fashioned way. Tastes like when I was a kid.
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| User: "Matt Silberstein" |
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| Title: Re: No God at All: Western Humanism and the New Atheism |
04 Nov 2005 03:53:41 PM |
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On Fri, 04 Nov 2005 14:08:20 +0000, in alt.atheism , Lizz Holmans
<dillo@jackalope.demon.co.uk> in
<94qmm1thf3vpjia5btqk9lag6ifm1vivjj@4ax.com> wrote:
On Fri, 04 Nov 2005 12:33:24 +0000, Therion Ware
<autodelete@city-of-dis.com> wrote:
On Fri, 04 Nov 2005 11:43:09 +0000 in alt.atheism, Lizz Holmans (Lizz
Holmans <dillo@jackalope.demon.co.uk>) said, directing the reply to
alt.atheism
Do they all rise? It may be superstition, but I have only one oven in
which they consistently work.
My dear, they practically raise the roof.
Are you sure your batter is just-from-the-fridge cold? It should chill
for at least one hour. Whisk it again just before you pour them into
the pans, but don't let them warm up at all.
Are you using meat dripping (the one true way to Yorkshire is slicked
with beef dripping)? Make sure it's sizzling hot before you add the
batter.
Then *immediately* pop them into a hot oven (450 deg.Fahrenheit) for
ten minutes--after the first ten, lower the thermostat to about 400
for about 15-20 minutes. The first 10 minutes really give it the oven
spring you're looking for. And no peeking unless you smell burning.
My caro sposo married me cos I was the only American who ever made the
puds correctly. Or was it that I was the only one who asked him?
Probably simply because you are the Only One. That is why I married my
spouse.
Lizz 'some things are not meant to be known by (wo)men' Holmans
Don't expect men to tell you, don't even expect them to know. If men
were expected to know these things, their wives would tell them.
--
Matt Silberstein
Do something today about the Darfur Genocide
http://www.beawitness.org
http://www.darfurgenocide.org
http://www.savedarfur.org
"Darfur: A Genocide We can Stop"
.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: No God at All: Western Humanism and the New Atheism |
09 Nov 2005 02:45:53 PM |
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words of truth wrote:
http://tertius.blogspot.com/2004/10/new-atheism.html
No God at All: Western Humanism and the New Atheism
It is commonly assumed that atheism is the belief that there is no God,
and that an atheist is someone who believes there is no God. Most
atheists, however, reject these definitions.
Really, they reject it? I haven't heard. Have you talked to *most* of
atheists, or is this generalisation an asumption based on your
experience? In other words, what substanciates this generalisation?
They point out that the
term atheism derives from the Greek a (not, without) and theos (God,
god), and conclude that atheism is simply the lack or absence of belief
in a God or gods.
Above statement is repeat of ' someone who believes there is no god'
No belief in god is still true within context that there is no god
when you argue from point of view of belief.
I dont believe something exists.
Therefore it does not exists.
I believe something exists
Therefore something exists.
This is an angle that I encounter amongst theists. They would argue
that because they believe that god exists, it must exist. Atheists
would likely point out logical inconsistency of it.Or I'd say: in that
case all I need to do is not believe that god exists and poof! It does
not.
That is, an atheist does not necessarily deny the
existence of a God, but simply has no belief in the existence of a God.
Yes some do. Because it is broader definition which respects and
includes variety of positions that atheists could claim and is still
consistent to definition.
Pay attention to key word: necessarily.
George Smith, for example, asserts that in this sense both the man who
has never heard of the concept of God, and the child who is too young
to grasp the concept, are atheists. This claim is an old one: the
eighteenth-century atheist Baron D'Holbach wrote, All children are
atheists, they have no idea of God.
It substanciates that theism is a consequence of enviromental
conditioning; concept that is learned is passed down from parents or
enviroment.
Atheists wish to secure two benefits from this redefinition of the term
atheism. First, by defining it as the lack of a belief, rather than a
belief itself, they wish to render atheism impervious to criticism.
Who are 'they'? Most atheists I encountered have no problem handling
criticism. In fact they offered many valid points as answer to
criticism.
And how could you know what they wish? They are not singular entity.
They consits of many different people and consequently many different
wishes.
One cannot criticize a non-position!
Appearantly it is possible. You are doing it aren't you?
On this basis atheists frequently
dismiss out of hand all claims that atheism is a dangerous or corrupt
philosophy, since it is not a philosophy at all, but merely the lack of
a particular philosophical concept.
I never heard of anyone making claims that atheism is dangerous and
corrupt except you.
And since you want to make a claim you need to provide sufficient
evidence to substanciate your claim. If you can not, anyone and
everyone would dismiss it.
I mostly heard that atheism is neighter good or evil, that it is simply
a choice made by a person respective of position: does god exists?
..
Second, atheists commonly argue
that since they lack a belief while theists are adhering to and
promoting their belief, the burden of proof rests fully on the theist
to make a case for belief in God. That is, the atheist has nothing to
justify, no belief to defend or substantiate; the burden of providing
justification or evidence rests solely on the theist. An atheist is in
the same position as someone who lacks belief in elves - they have
nothing to prove and no need to defend their belief, while the person
who does believe in elves is obliged, if he wants anyone else to take
his belief seriously, to provide some rational justification for that
belief. This is what Antony Flew, one of the leading atheist
philosophers of the twentieth century, called the presumption of
atheism.
It is curious that he would call it presumption of atheism. He could
easily call it: presumption of theism. Because, according to your
claim, it is Theists who assume that Atheist should prove non existance
of deity.
The claim that atheism is not a position that needs to be defended is
rather odd, and strangely contradicted by atheists themselves.
Take,
for example, B. C. Johnson, who repeats the standard claim that because
atheists merely have a lack of belief in God, they are not offering any
explanation of things which needs to be justified.
That is not contradictory it is merely a logically consistent position.
If one claims something exists, then there should be evidence to
support the claim.
One can not argue that chukuluga does not exit. Because it would be
absurd to care enough to argue that it does not. If you make chukuluga
a center of your life, then it should matter enough to you as a
believer to prove its existance. Especially if you claim that those who
do not believe in chukuluga are wrong.
Yet this claim comes
on the heels of the following statement about the purpose of his book:
For some time now atheists have been in need of firm grounds upon which
to base their position.
They are on firm ground.
The attempt to defend their unusual definition of atheism by etymology
misunderstands how the word was formed. Traditionally the term has been
construed as athe-ism, that is, the belief (-ism) that there is no God
(athe-), rather than as a-theism, the mere absence or lack of belief in
God. It is silly to define atheism in such a way that not only babies
(as is commonly claimed), but also animals and even inanimate objects,
would qualify as atheists - since all of these lack belief in God!
I don't think it is silly. I think you are misunderstanding (a-) is
common prefix that cannotes : absence . Like (apathy) is word that
means (a-) absence and (pathy-) which cannotes interest or care;
(theism) is also common and it cannotes ( god) . There is no such word
as (athe-) You are making it up. I think it is silly to redifine
atheism so that theism can have firmer grounds to defend their
position.
When atheists are not worrying about the definition,
That is assumption. One need not to worry about something that is
satisfactory.
I haven't met atheist who is confused about why they call them selves
atheist.
they commonly
speak of themselves as atheists with the clear understanding that the
term refers to people who have rejected the concept of God.
Well why not? Atheism is not dogmatic philosophy that would reject
variety of understanding. In fact, atheism would embrace variety and
not worry about it.
Of course, most atheists do not claim to know with certainty that there
is no God.
Actually they do. If they aren't certain then they would fall under
sceptics chategory.
Flew, for instance, is eager to say that atheists are not
"bigoted dogmatists" who are closed to the idea of God. Such dogmatic
atheism would leave itself wide open to the objection that one would
have to be omniscient to know that there was no God - so that in
effect one would have to be God to know there was no God!
Although atheists often deny espousing such a dogmatic atheism, they
frequently do end up asserting in quite dogmatic terms that God does
not or even cannot exist.
So you are saying that atheists are dogmatic bigots?
Though some would say that atheism is not dogmatic as, they would say,
theists have not offered enough evidence pertaining to existance of god
to believe otherwise. This is not dogmatism, it is merely asserting
ones position and requesting undisputable evidence.
George Smith, for example, writes, It is
logically impossible for god - a concept replete with absurdities and
contradictions - to have a referent in reality, just as it is
logically impossible for a square circle to exist. Given the attempts
to define god, we may now state - with certainty - that god does
not exist.
This is actually a fairly common sentiment in the atheist
literature.
You are contradicting your self. First you say *most* atheists reject
definition that atheism is belief that there is no god. Now you are
saying this is a common sentiment. Which one is it?
I
The nineteenth-century atheist Annie Besant, for example,
admitted that to say "There is no God" would be irrational because it
would be asserting "a universal negative" which would require "perfect
knowledge" to justify.
It would also require a perfect knowledge to assert that god does
exists, now would it?
But it turns out that Besant allowed for the
possibility of a God unknown to her only if it is a finite entity in
some unknown place (say, "on the far side of Sirius"). If that God is
said to be an infinite being, she argued that such a God cannot exist
because the assertion of an infinite God is a "universal affirmative"
No. She would point out that if such god exists (as she is allowing
this possibility) it would contradict definition of infinite entity.
She is also saying that it is logically inconsistent because it is
universal affirmitive as one does not need to prove that everything
does not exists.
that is contradicted by the existence of anything (such as oneself)
that is not God.
Yes.
Also see my point above.
Besant's argument, of course, misunderstands what theists mean by
describing God as "infinite." They mean, not that God is everything
(which would be pantheism, not theism), but that he is unbounded by
finite limitations of matter, energy, space, or time.
I don't think so. She has merely pointed out that if one allows that
finite God exists (which appearantly has been allowed by theists) then
this contradict claims that god is not bound or limited by matter,
space and time.
She is not claiming that god is everything. She is merely claiming that
god can not be everything because it is illogical and then she proceeds
to explain that it is illogical because it is universal affirmation
...etc.
Therefore god has to be finite.
In other words,
God is incorporeal, omnipotent, omnipresent, and eternal. These
characteristics imply that God is not part of the universe and
therefore is a concrete being distinct from everything else. Thus
Besant's denial of an infinite God really is a universal negative
after all.
Not it is most definitely not.
She is only saying that possibility of infinite god is not possible
given the premisses.
Since theists can not argue their position due to illogical
inconsistency she has no need for universal negative. She would argue
that universal affirmation is just as not possible as universal
negative.
Atheism, then, is a position which is often presented in a remarkably
double-minded way.
No. Its your lack of understanding of atheism that makes it appear to
you that way.
Atheists claim not to have any belief about God, but
then vigorously deny that God could exist. Atheists deny that atheism
is a position that can or needs to be defended, but then offer
arguments in defense of atheism. Again, George Smith illustrates this
philosophical schizophrenia in unmistakable fashion.
One would have to be psychotic to do that. He is quite eloqently and
logically explaining his view on the consquence of atheism.
After arguing that
atheism is not a position or belief but a mere lack of belief in a god,
he changes gears in order to explain why atheism is significant: If
atheism is correct, man is alone. There is no god to think for him, to
watch out for him, to guarantee his happiness. These are the sole
responsibility of man. It is clear here that atheism is a philosophy,
or at least a basic worldview, after all. It is not merely a lack of
belief in certain postulated entities (like elves) but a view of the
world as self-existent and self-explanatory and of human life as
self-determining. Atheism is the belief that man is alone, that is,
that the living beings in this universe must fend for themselves
because there is no transcendent Creator or other supernatural beings
to help them or to hold them accountable for how they live.
Atheism therefore entails naturalism, the belief - as Carl Sagan
famously put it, The COSMOS is all there is, all there was, and all
there ever will be. For most atheists, atheism also entails secular
humanism, the belief that human beings must determine their own purpose
for life and must solve their own problems. For an atheist, the only
alternative to some such humanism is nihilism, the belief that life has
no purpose or meaning.
No. Actually, that is not the only alternative. As you pointed out they
also have an alternative as to believe that human beings must determine
their own purpose. You confuse this to mean: no purpose of life ?
While nihilism is a reasonable inference from
atheism,
I don't think it's reasonable inference.
most atheists resist nihilism and argue for what Antony Flew
calls Atheistic Humanism: a positive philosophy of life that embraces
life as meaningful despite the lack of any divinely created purpose for
the human race. This is the philosophy of the Humanist Manifesto I
(1933), the Humanist Manifesto II (1973), and the Secular Humanist
Declaration (1980).
Yes. Because they too don't believe that it is reasonable inference.
Given this basic worldview in which the natural cosmos is all that
exists and yet human life is held to be meaningful and purposeful,
atheists cannot legitimately place the burden of proof exclusively on
the theist.
Actually they can.
And precisesly because there is sufficient evidence that
Human life can be meaningful and purposeful without belief in god. Ie
we don't need god to give purpose and meaning to life. You your self
mention that in this article when you elaborated on humanism.
This only streightens atheists position. It does not require from them.
But they also can for another obvious reason. Atheists life is not
centered around non existance of god. I don't know why some theists
have a hard time to understand this. Theists life and perception of
world is centered around belief that god exists. Therefore, the burden
of proof is on theists to justify to why they chose to center their
life the way they do and existance of god.
The modern atheist espouses a worldview in conscious
opposition to the theistic worldview that has dominated Western
civilization for about 1600 years, and they therefore bear some burden
of proof to show that there is no transcendent God responsible for the
existence and nature of the world and for the existence and meaning of
human life.
You just pointed out in your article an athour who elaborated on his
point of view on consequences of atheism relative to existance and
meaning of human life. This means?
Regards,
Suzana
I appologise if this post appears twice. ...problems with computer..
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: No God at All: Western Humanism and the New Atheism |
09 Nov 2005 06:43:59 PM |
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This is an angle that I encounter amongst theists. They would argue
that because they believe that god exists, it must exist.
One thing that I find very noticable among theists is that they start
from some conclusion and then ignore anything that does not lead to the
conclusion. What I am unsure of is whether this is a requirement in
order to be a theist or a consequence of being one. The problem is that
the theist thinks of this as being normal and logical which makes
arguing with them very difficult because they don't understand the
process of argument.
I would be interested in what 'words of truth [sic]' thinks about other
religions. Well, that is probably _if_ he thinks about them at all. I
suspect that he sees the world in a very simplistic way as two groups:
those that believe his way, and sinners. He is probably only vaguely
aware of other religions and thinks that they believe in his god or are
atheists and satan worshipers. His world knowledge is probably bound by
what is in the bible and anything outside that must be ignored.
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| User: "the land surfer" |
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| Title: Re: No God at All: Western Humanism and the New Atheism |
20 Nov 2005 02:37:47 PM |
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wrote in news:1131561839.671620.114060
@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com:
This is an angle that I encounter amongst theists. They would
argue
that because they believe that god exists, it must exist.
One thing that I find very noticable among theists is that they
start
from some conclusion and then ignore anything that does not lead to
the
conclusion. What I am unsure of is whether this is a requirement in
order to be a theist or a consequence of being one. The problem is
that
the theist thinks of this as being normal and logical which makes
arguing with them very difficult because they don't understand the
process of argument.
I would be interested in what 'words of truth [sic]' thinks about
other
religions. Well, that is probably _if_ he thinks about them at all.
I
suspect that he sees the world in a very simplistic way as two
groups:
those that believe his way, and sinners. He is probably only
vaguely
aware of other religions and thinks that they believe in his god or
are
atheists and satan worshipers. His world knowledge is probably
bound by
what is in the bible and anything outside that must be ignored.
ah yeah gday 3
+++
where are th fuckin words?
+++
gorillaz
'dare'
+++
you can be sit down now
+++
hey paulie
bush is touting
religious freedom in china
"i thought it was their policy to encourage it anywhere"
+++
it's all good
+++
kuta's a cool religion
+++
will th
international court
have a bite at
singapore
for
it's death penalty
and how does that effect
aboriginal traditional law
we still have th death penalty
+++
"licensed to kill"
stop it
+++
"i'm a black cop"
"traditional"
+++
go boldly paulie
'fuckem"
+++
kanye west
'golddigger'
+++
we've had a good week
we won th soccer game
get to go to th world cup
won th rugby
libby put in another world record
in th pool
and our
ecstacy poppin model
got deported from indonesia yesterday
+++
"oh um"
"they had another quake"
didnt do any damage did it ?
"no just soiled some clothes"
+++
hmm
+++
december 2
they have down to hang him paulie
+++
"it's an awful large amount of street doses of heroin"
he's young and silly
+++
pj harvey
'working for the man'
+++
oh
+++
he gave th man
some info
about further up th chain
coughed up his guts
hmm
if ya did let him go
th underworld would
fill th contract anyway
"think his mum wants him"
"safe behind bars"
+++
"is there such a thing ?"
+++
dont think they;d
just stretch his neck
probly chop some toes off
and assorted body parts and feed em to im
+++
paulei
"hmm"
+++
"i'm not fond of smack"
this isnt about your views
this is about australian's views
+++
"look"
"i said"
"it's dangerous to yur health"
"to kill any australian"
"very rare"
"aboriginal law steps in"
"christopher skase was an exception"
he wouldnt come back to home country and face justice
+++
the geraldine fibbers
'dragon lady'
+++
whole country was convinced
he feigning his illness
seemed remarkably healthy
when th tv crews found im
+++
i pointed th bone at im
he died of his illness
seven days later
karma
<<<smiel >>>
+++
th boys i was singin with last night
didnt know
who'd won th rugby
i kept my mouth shut
+++
no that i knew
you know
but singin with some big
maori boys
and very other kiwi who passes
drops money in
on th basis
+++
the kadaictha man of australia
says little
in th street
+++
ask mika where comes from
and he answers
redcliffe
my kind of australian
+++
if home is
across th water
then *****
+++
pj harvey
'i think i'm a mother'
+++
was morticia's excuse paulie
got half australian kids
+++
"hmmm"
+++
ya ever gunna become a naturalized australian ?
then why are ya here ?
+++
i love my
new zealand neighbours
just dont agree with everything they say
+++
worked with enough maoris
i know
th first greeting is always aggressive
doesnt mean anything
is just talk
+++
our new found mouthy friend
on th bus seat jess
not been here long has he ?
+++
Mu
'jealous kids'
+++
ok morticia
my maori princess
head witch of the gold coast and
really magic woman
if yur all over here
to make money
how many intend goin home later ?
i never meet them
+++
and not like
ya funnel money back
like th islanders do
+++
benny is off to NZ
for xmas
"i heard"
+++
we dont want him
goin to live in NZ permanent
too smart
we educated him
+++
i love australian schools
th kids have a different agenda
to th teachers
+++
i dont say much
when i'm singing int h street
being a background singer
i spend most of my time
listening
"even if i am"
"singing"
+++
preset studio keepers
'solsbury hill'(DUR)
+++
it's not very nice
i know
not to introduce myself properly
to my audience
sittin at th bus stop seat
+++
i'm th wizard
and i'm black
and th cops dont
tell me what to do
ride my unicycle
wrong way up th road
tellin off th cabbies
slow down comin out of th tunnel
i got ppl on th street
a huge night
i got no lights on th unicycle and yes *****
i am prepared to tell you to get fucked
no car has taken me out yet
go and complain
they wont do anything
+++
"<<<smiel >>>"
+++
yes it is my unicycle
sittin right behind me
cause some fuckwiot
tried to take off with it
last week whiel was singin
usin it as a backrest
and sittin on th towel
in a yoga position
+++
will smith
'switch'
+++
why should i do you a trick dude ?
unicycle slides not good enough for you ?
you missed em ?
so
i dont do it for money
+++
sorry i didnt introduce myself
i'm th lethal kadaitcha man of australia
pleased to meet you
+++
i was singin with rock spider
another part black
and this guy said
you guys gunna be here later ?
rock spider said yes
me ?
i'm everywhere
+++
tatu
'all the things you said'
+++
i dont comment
+++
and i dont read it
i follow popular opinion
+++
watch every tv station
read th paper and
watch world news
+++
no
iq 80
anything
tells me what to do
or votes
for me
+++
my job description is
my description
+++
if i'm in a good mood
i'm the wizard of aus
ya dig ?
i'm half white
+++
when we did
black magic woman
mika's new version
i went up to
jewel's vocal range
+++
deadstar
'deeper water'
+++
i dunno mouthy boy
if my singin was
costin em money
you think they'd buy me
coffee
and paulie
can ya pls sit in my chair
while i go buy em
and hand me th drum
give us those
live heartbeats paulie
<<< smiel >>>
+++
i'm not a maori
or a kiwi
watch yur fuckin mouth
+++
backpedalled a bit didnt ya
when jewel started singin
to mika's guitar
mika ya fuckhead
it's pitched too high
six chicks just did
a double take
and took up positions
within fourty feet
ok smart arse
you know so much about what we're doing
how many of those chicks
came back and threw in th hat
+++
david byrne
'like humans do'(radio edit)
+++
there's always at least one fuckwit
who wanders up and
makes a comment
while yur singin in th street
i wouldnt sing nice for you
in a pink fit
and you know so much
better than we do
not liek we dont pull
fifty dollar notes when
th younger crowd isnt in town
+++
th buskers dont money from th party crowd
ya get more abuse
ya have more fun
but ya dont make more money
from th bigger crowd
+++
we knew you were comin
it's traditional
whether you know it or not
they dont want toolies in
surfers paradise
during schoolies
and lock up everything
that moves
we all come to play last night
but umm
not real serious
+++
kevin bloody wilson
'stack the fridge'
+++
do you know
what th buskers talk about
when you
th fuckhead with th big mouth
wanders on
+++
i was on rock spiders drum
and this chick jsut
i aint got any money for you so
she stuck her ***** in my face
and
like this close
and
dirty dancing
spinning
out there
rock spider blown away
you never seen it that blatant man ?
didnt say that though
kept quiet and
man that is amazing
+++
city high
'three way'
+++
got on this thing with
matt
i was just vocals
theo bringin in
some bongos for me
to cart
mine are fucked
so i can riffle behind
matt nd theo nd
anyoen else a drum shy
rock spider only brought oen last night
lost half our repertoire
mat and i
man
he into that wind instrument and
and we got
recorded beats
drummachien
backing track
i've gone left field
singin up with th flute
and jammin
acapella beats into
th beats
while six chicks
squidge in front of the kombi
that was fun
gotta roll
+++
blood sweat and tears
'spinning wheel'
+++
eunice the unique unicycle
i'm payin bad today dear
th heat rash from so many
insane kilometres on th wheel
me and th nephew
wamr today
we goin swimmin at redcliffe lagoon ?
"umm"
"i had an awesome ride last night"
"got in at dawn"
"little brother got up"
"oh hi"
"i'll get ya to do th lawn tomorrow"
"ya have a good time ?"
"told some tales and"
"i got a six inch slide"
"on concrete and"
"rode off it"
"***** man"
"got a huge grin and"
"they rebuildin th landie today anyway"
+++
hanson
'if only'
+++
you sayin it
still wont be goin ?
+++
"yur usin th wrong fuel it;s a diesel"
i dont get that
"gotta pour it over th bonnet and light it"
oh ok
+++
robbie bopped thru
to commentate
mostly
to keep th big fella company
layin under th truck
talkin muscle cars
we pushed th xbou into th street
nephew drove it out
he cryin
she goin on a tilt tray tomorrow or
day after
xd comin tonight
+++
tenacious d
'freindship test'
+++
its an ex cop car
let em use it for
a
demolition derby
attitude boy
my xf
falcon is
on th grass
watin for th xd to come in
he's late
+++
mat picked it
i drive a falcon
+++
he drivin
same model kombi
we toured europe in
+++
shakespears sister
'i dont care'
+++
i do
+++
i got fair into this guy
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