| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"Bill" |
| Date: |
09 Feb 2005 11:09:52 AM |
| Object: |
NO LOGIC OR COMMON SENSE |
Some simple logic and common sense that refutes the existence of any
omnipotent gods
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then where does evil come from?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him a God?
The Christian faiths foundation is not founded on belief in God but belief
in MEN.
The Bible? Written by MEN. Inspired by God? So MEN say. Which books are
Scripture? The ones chosen by MEN. What do they mean? What MEN (including
oneself) say they mean. Dictated by God? So MEN say. What is God
telling you? Whatever MEN (an ordinary human) CLAIM he
is telling you.
Of all the hundreds of God beliefs and claims, how do we know which is the
real God and which
are fakes? What MEN tell their flock is the real God.
Since no real God shows up in person or on International TV to give us
anything
to believe in, the only option available to us is to put our trust in
what MEN say and think about Gods. To put one's faith in the
stories, superstitions, myths and subjective thoughts and feelings of MEN is
not faith in God, but faith in MEN, and specifically faith in
what MEN claim about Gods. Ultimately, it is faith in MEN not God!
The objective evidence is rather strong that NO GODS CREATED MAN, but quite
the opposite,
that MAN CREATED GODS.
Bill
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| User: "Randy Story" |
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| Title: Re: NO LOGIC OR COMMON SENSE |
09 Feb 2005 12:43:33 PM |
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"Bill" <wmech@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:AtrOd.20806$Th1.16679@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
Some simple logic and common sense that refutes the existence of any
omnipotent gods
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then where does evil come from?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him a God?
The Christian faiths foundation is not founded on belief in God but belief
in MEN.
The Bible? Written by MEN. Inspired by God? So MEN say. Which books are
Scripture? The ones chosen by MEN. What do they mean? What MEN (including
oneself) say they mean. Dictated by God? So MEN say. What is God
telling you? Whatever MEN (an ordinary human) CLAIM he
is telling you.
Of all the hundreds of God beliefs and claims, how do we know which is the
real God and which
are fakes? What MEN tell their flock is the real God.
Since no real God shows up in person or on International TV to give us
anything
to believe in, the only option available to us is to put our trust in
what MEN say and think about Gods. To put one's faith in the
stories, superstitions, myths and subjective thoughts and feelings of MEN
is
not faith in God, but faith in MEN, and specifically faith in
what MEN claim about Gods. Ultimately, it is faith in MEN not God!
The objective evidence is rather strong that NO GODS CREATED MAN, but
quite
the opposite,
that MAN CREATED GODS.
Bill
To Bill, in actually it is atheists that throw out reason at the highest
level, some examples.
1. We all see that every effect or event, that means something that begins
needs an originating cause. None of us have ever seen where this is not the
case that every part of the universe needs a cause, yet when dealing with
the universe as a whole atheists say " its just Thar" as Bertrand Russell
might have said. Unreasonable!
2. We all see that every effect or event that displays language, code,
program, specified complexity, etc requires not only an originating cause
but a intelligent originating cause. None of us have ever seen where this is
not the case. Of course the more infomation that is contained in a smaller
format we all marvel that these human designers are getting smarter, yet
when it comes to the DNA where more information is contained in the smallest
format known to man the cell, we say it all came about without intelligence.
Unreasonable!
3. We all se that some acts are better then others, charity is better then
theft, fedility is better then rape, mercy is better then murder, etc. Now
how is it that we can even determine this if we somehow are not endowed to
understand that there is a best, a perfection, an absolutely perfect
standard. It makes no sense at all to say I know this act is better then
that act and all humans agree unless this standard is there in all men from
a perfect designer. Unreasonable!
The three most imprtant questions you should ask.
1. Is there a God.
2. What are the properties of this God. ( What type of God)
3. Has this God spoken and provided evidence for such.
As far as your problem with evil, this is easily answered. God is *allowing*
evil for a season to test all men as to whether they would turn to good or
to evil. Good & evil will then be separated and all mankind sealed as to
where they would wish to be, to live forever with the good which is God
himself or with evil which is to separate oneself forever from the good,
which is God.
.
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| User: "Ron Baker, Pluralitas!" |
|
| Title: Re: NO LOGIC OR COMMON SENSE |
09 Feb 2005 08:08:14 PM |
|
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"Randy Story" <rstorynw@olypen.com> wrote in message
news:110kmie45d9c93f@corp.supernews.com...
"Bill" <wmech@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:AtrOd.20806$Th1.16679@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
Some simple logic and common sense that refutes the existence of any
omnipotent gods
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then where does evil come from?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him a God?
<snip for brevity>
Bill
To Bill, in actually it is atheists that throw out reason at the highest
level, some examples.
1. We all see that every effect or event, that means something that begins
needs an originating cause. None of us have ever seen where this is not
the
case that every part of the universe needs a cause, yet when dealing with
the universe as a whole atheists say " its just Thar" as Bertrand Russell
might have said. Unreasonable!
But God is 'just Thar' and that is reasonable?
Nonsense. Quetzacoatl is the true first cause.
2. We all see that every effect or event that displays language, code,
program, specified complexity, etc requires not only an originating cause
but a intelligent originating cause. None of us have ever seen where this
is
not the case. Of course the more infomation that is contained in a smaller
format we all marvel that these human designers are getting smarter, yet
when it comes to the DNA where more information is contained in the
smallest
format known to man the cell, we say it all came about without
intelligence.
Unreasonable!
3. We all se that some acts are better then others, charity is better
then
theft, fedility is better then rape, mercy is better then murder, etc.
That is true to some degree but the thing is we don't agree as to
which acts are theft, murder, etc.
Some call welfare theft, some call it equitable.
Some call the death penalty murder, same call it justice.
There is no absolute, no standard.
Now
how is it that we can even determine this if we somehow are not endowed to
understand that there is a best, a perfection, an absolutely perfect
standard. It makes no sense at all to say I know this act is better then
that act and all humans agree unless this standard is there in all men
from
a perfect designer. Unreasonable!
The three most imprtant questions you should ask.
1. Is there a God.
2. What are the properties of this God. ( What type of God)
3. Has this God spoken and provided evidence for such.
Done.
1. No.
2. Irrelevant.
3. No.
As far as your problem with evil, this is easily answered. God is
*allowing*
evil for a season to test all men as to whether they would turn to good or
to evil.
No good. You yourself have said that God is omniscient.
In that case he knows the outcome of the test before it begins.
There is no need to run the test unless God just likes screwing
with us.
Good & evil will then be separated and all mankind sealed as to
where they would wish to be, to live forever with the good which is God
himself or with evil which is to separate oneself forever from the good,
which is God.
--
rb #2187
.
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| User: "ZenIsWhen" |
|
| Title: Re: NO LOGIC OR COMMON SENSE |
09 Feb 2005 05:49:27 PM |
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"Randy Story" <rstorynw@olypen.com> wrote in message
news:110kmie45d9c93f@corp.supernews.com...
"Bill" <wmech@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:AtrOd.20806$Th1.16679@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
Some simple logic and common sense that refutes the existence of any
omnipotent gods
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then where does evil come from?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him a God?
The Christian faiths foundation is not founded on belief in God but
belief
in MEN.
The Bible? Written by MEN. Inspired by God? So MEN say. Which books are
Scripture? The ones chosen by MEN. What do they mean? What MEN
(including
oneself) say they mean. Dictated by God? So MEN say. What is God
telling you? Whatever MEN (an ordinary human) CLAIM he
is telling you.
Of all the hundreds of God beliefs and claims, how do we know which is
the
real God and which
are fakes? What MEN tell their flock is the real God.
Since no real God shows up in person or on International TV to give us
anything
to believe in, the only option available to us is to put our trust in
what MEN say and think about Gods. To put one's faith in the
stories, superstitions, myths and subjective thoughts and feelings of
MEN
is
not faith in God, but faith in MEN, and specifically faith in
what MEN claim about Gods. Ultimately, it is faith in MEN not God!
The objective evidence is rather strong that NO GODS CREATED MAN, but
quite
the opposite,
that MAN CREATED GODS.
Bill
To Bill, in actually it is atheists that throw out reason at the highest
level, some examples.
1. We all see that every effect or event, that means something that begins
needs an originating cause. None of us have ever seen where this is not
the
case that every part of the universe needs a cause, yet when dealing with
the universe as a whole atheists say " its just Thar" as Bertrand Russell
might have said. Unreasonable!
Reason, "at the highest level", would demand evidence - not insane boogyman
inventions!
WE - IN OUR LIMITED VIEW AND UNDERSTANDING have only seen things that have a
cause. There is NO rational reason to assume EVERYTHING, therefore, MUST hve
a cause.
The things that we have seen, that do have a cause, have a scientifically
explainable cause - there has never been a "god" found or necessary.
We do not know what "caused" the universe. There is no reason to assume the
answer will fall outside of science than any other answer we have
discovered.
and, of course, the old standby - "what caused god"?
2. We all see that every effect or event that displays language, code,
program, specified complexity, etc requires not only an originating cause
but a intelligent originating cause.
Wrong again.
"Complexity" is an opinion based word - and has no scientific meaning any
more than short/tall, fat/thin.
That man made things are "complex", or even exist, has NO bearing on
ANYTHING created by nature.
None of us have ever seen where this is
not the case. Of course the more infomation that is contained in a smaller
format we all marvel that these human designers are getting smarter, yet
when it comes to the DNA where more information is contained in the
smallest
format known to man the cell, we say it all came about without
intelligence.
Unreasonable!
No - uneducated laimbrain!
3. We all se that some acts are better then others, charity is better
then
theft, fedility is better then rape, mercy is better then murder, etc. Now
how is it that we can even determine this if we somehow are not endowed to
understand that there is a best, a perfection, an absolutely perfect
standard. It makes no sense at all to say I know this act is better then
that act and all humans agree unless this standard is there in all men
from
a perfect designer. Unreasonable!
No; nature, society, evolution, survival etc.
That you, and others, need an invisable sky-daddy to guide your actions only
indicates your ignorance, not the ability of man to evolve into a being that
has (along with many other animals) those same characteristics.
The three most imprtant questions you should ask.
1. Is there a God.
2. What are the properties of this God. ( What type of God)
3. Has this God spoken and provided evidence for such.
No; the three most important actions I need to ask are,
1) Is there shealter readily avaiable.
2) Is there food readily avaiable.
3) Am I safe.
That you center your life around something for which there is absolutely NO
evidence, only shows you a myopic fool.
That you pretend anyone else MUST meet your narrominded criteria, only shows
your arrogance!
As far as your problem with evil, this is easily answered. God is
*allowing*
evil for a season to test all men as to whether they would turn to good or
to evil. Good & evil will then be separated and all mankind sealed as to
where they would wish to be, to live forever with the good which is God
himself or with evil which is to separate oneself forever from the good,
which is God.
What god?
You have to convincinglty prove that god exists, BERFORE you can support any
claims about what god does. Neither you nor anyone else has been able to
come up with nothing more than irrational, fraudulent arguments - i.e. NO
real evidence.
YOUR claim about what god does, or why god does it, is only an offshoot of
your own, self centered, personal arrogance.
.
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| User: "Bill" |
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| Title: Re: NO LOGIC OR COMMON SENSE |
09 Feb 2005 01:57:23 PM |
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"Randy Story" <rstorynw@olypen.com> wrote in message
news:110kmie45d9c93f@corp.supernews.com...
"Bill" <wmech@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:AtrOd.20806$Th1.16679@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
Some simple logic and common sense that refutes the existence of any
omnipotent gods
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then where does evil come from?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him a God?
The Christian faiths foundation is not founded on belief in God but
belief
in MEN.
The Bible? Written by MEN. Inspired by God? So MEN say. Which books are
Scripture? The ones chosen by MEN. What do they mean? What MEN
(including
oneself) say they mean. Dictated by God? So MEN say. What is God
telling you? Whatever MEN (an ordinary human) CLAIM he
is telling you.
Of all the hundreds of God beliefs and claims, how do we know which is
the
real God and which
are fakes? What MEN tell their flock is the real God.
Since no real God shows up in person or on International TV to give us
anything
to believe in, the only option available to us is to put our trust in
what MEN say and think about Gods. To put one's faith in the
stories, superstitions, myths and subjective thoughts and feelings of
MEN
is
not faith in God, but faith in MEN, and specifically faith in
what MEN claim about Gods. Ultimately, it is faith in MEN not God!
The objective evidence is rather strong that NO GODS CREATED MAN, but
quite
the opposite,
that MAN CREATED GODS.
Bill
To Bill, in actually it is atheists that throw out reason at the highest
level, some examples.
It is interesting to see how you create and distort your "own" reality.
1. We all see that every effect or event, that means something that begins
needs an originating cause. None of us have ever seen where this is not
the
case that every part of the universe needs a cause, yet when dealing with
the universe as a whole atheists say " its just Thar" as Bertrand Russell
might have said. Unreasonable!
The fact that we poor earthlings cannot look back beyond 13.7 BILLION years
to determine the actual beginning of the Universe does not prove or even
indicate
some God. If the Universe had to have a creator than God equally would have
had to have creator. Who created your God?
If your God always was and always will be than why can't the Universe always
was and always will be?
There are thousands of different God beliefs. Which God, if any, is the real
God
and which are fakes?
2. We all see that every effect or event that displays language, code,
program, specified complexity, etc requires not only an originating cause
but a intelligent originating cause. None of us have ever seen where this
is
not the case. Of course the more infomation that is contained in a smaller
format we all marvel that these human designers are getting smarter, yet
when it comes to the DNA where more information is contained in the
smallest
format known to man the cell, we say it all came about without
intelligence.
Unreasonable!
If the complexity of the Universe required a creator the creator would have
to
be as, or even more, complex. Who or what created God?
3. We all se that some acts are better then others, charity is better
then
theft, fedility is better then rape, mercy is better then murder, etc. Now
how is it that we can even determine this if we somehow are not endowed to
understand that there is a best, a perfection, an absolutely perfect
standard. It makes no sense at all to say I know this act is better then
that act and all humans agree unless this standard is there in all men
from
a perfect designer. Unreasonable!
Laws are promulgated by societies to protect society. No God is required
to accomplish this. This has been going on for thousands of years even
before
the Bible and other written religious documents.
The three most imprtant questions you should ask.
1. Is there a God.
If there is a real God which, out of hundreds, is the real God and which are
fakes?
How do you know which is real and which are fakes?
2. What are the properties of this God. ( What type of God)
First you have to establish that there is a real God.
3. Has this God spoken and provided evidence for such.
True. Where is there objective (non man created) evidence of this real God
and
his speeches? Where are they?
As far as your problem with evil, this is easily answered. God is
*allowing*
evil for a season to test all men as to whether they would turn to good or
to evil. Good & evil will then be separated and all mankind sealed as to
where they would wish to be, to live forever with the good which is God
himself or with evil which is to separate oneself forever from the good,
which is God.
Sounds like your God is playing games of torture with us. Where is you
objective
evidence for your claims???
.
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| User: "Josef Balluch" |
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| Title: Re: NO LOGIC OR COMMON SENSE |
09 Feb 2005 07:09:00 PM |
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In a message sent 'round the world, Randy Story poured fuel on the fire
with the following:
....
1. We all see that every effect or event, that means something that begins
needs an originating cause.
Baloney. Have you seen EVERY event, Randy?
None of us have ever seen where this is not the
case that every part of the universe needs a cause, ...
Ditto.
... yet when dealing with
the universe as a whole atheists say " its just Thar" as Bertrand Russell
might have said. Unreasonable!
Nope. Quite reasonable.
2. We all see that every effect or event that displays language, code,
program, specified complexity, etc requires not only an originating cause
but a intelligent originating cause.
Pure speculation.
None of us have ever seen where this is
not the case.
Argument from Ignorance.
Of course the more infomation that is contained in a smaller
format we all marvel that these human designers are getting smarter, yet
when it comes to the DNA where more information is contained in the smallest
format known to man the cell, we say it all came about without intelligence.
Unreasonable!
Argument from Amazement.
3. We all se that some acts are better then others, charity is better then
theft, fedility is better then rape, mercy is better then murder, etc. Now
how is it that we can even determine this if we somehow are not endowed to
understand that there is a best, a perfection, an absolutely perfect
standard.
Silly twaddle. You don't need to understand "perfect". You only need to
understand "better".
It makes no sense at all to say I know this act is better then
that act and all humans agree unless this standard is there in all men from
a perfect designer. Unreasonable!
Non sequitur.
The three most imprtant questions you should ask.
1. Is there a God.
2. What are the properties of this God. ( What type of God)
3. Has this God spoken and provided evidence for such.
Deities are irrelevant even if they do exist.
As far as your problem with evil, this is easily answered. God is *allowing*
evil for a season ...
Which season, Randy?
... to test all men as to whether they would turn to good or
to evil. Good & evil will then be separated and all mankind sealed as to
where they would wish to be, to live forever with the good which is God
himself or with evil which is to separate oneself forever from the good,
which is God.
Your deity does not exist, and you will never be able to show otherwise.
Regards,
Josef
The more a man is imbued with the ordered regularity of all events the
firmer becomes his conviction that there is no room left by the side of
this ordered regularity for causes of a different nature.
-- Albert Einstein
.
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| User: "Al Klein" |
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| Title: Re: NO LOGIC OR COMMON SENSE |
09 Feb 2005 08:13:49 PM |
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On Wed, 9 Feb 2005 10:43:33 -0800, "Randy Story" <rstorynw@olypen.com>
said in alt.atheism:
1. We all see that every effect or event, that means something that begins
needs an originating cause.
Proof that the universe is an effect? Proof that the universe began?
Proof that effects need causes in the quantum foam out of which the
universe arose?
2. We all see that every effect or event that displays language, code,
program, specified complexity, etc requires not only an originating cause
but a intelligent originating cause.
Snowflakes?
Proof that your assertion is true in the quantum foam out of which the
universe arose?
3. We all se that some acts are better then others
"better" is relative to the speaker.
1. Is there a God.
2. What are the properties of this God. ( What type of God)
Not if the answer to the first is anything but "yes".
3. Has this God spoken and provided evidence for such.
See #2.
As far as your problem with evil, this is easily answered. God is *allowing*
evil for a season to test all men
An omniscient god has no need for tests - the results of those tests
are part of the "all" he already knows..
--
"As democracy is perfected, the office of president represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron."
- H. L. Mencken
(random sig, produced by SigChanger)
rukbat at verizon dot net
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| User: "snex" |
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| Title: Re: NO LOGIC OR COMMON SENSE |
09 Feb 2005 01:00:58 PM |
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Randy Story wrote:
"Bill" <wmech@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:AtrOd.20806$Th1.16679@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
Some simple logic and common sense that refutes the existence of
any
omnipotent gods
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then where does evil come from?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him a God?
The Christian faiths foundation is not founded on belief in God but
belief
in MEN.
The Bible? Written by MEN. Inspired by God? So MEN say. Which books
are
Scripture? The ones chosen by MEN. What do they mean? What MEN
(including
oneself) say they mean. Dictated by God? So MEN say. What is God
telling you? Whatever MEN (an ordinary human) CLAIM he
is telling you.
Of all the hundreds of God beliefs and claims, how do we know which
is the
real God and which
are fakes? What MEN tell their flock is the real God.
Since no real God shows up in person or on International TV to give
us
anything
to believe in, the only option available to us is to put our trust
in
what MEN say and think about Gods. To put one's faith in the
stories, superstitions, myths and subjective thoughts and feelings
of MEN
is
not faith in God, but faith in MEN, and specifically faith in
what MEN claim about Gods. Ultimately, it is faith in MEN not God!
The objective evidence is rather strong that NO GODS CREATED MAN,
but
quite
the opposite,
that MAN CREATED GODS.
Bill
To Bill, in actually it is atheists that throw out reason at the
highest
level, some examples.
1. We all see that every effect or event, that means something that
begins
needs an originating cause. None of us have ever seen where this is
not the
case that every part of the universe needs a cause, yet when dealing
with
the universe as a whole atheists say " its just Thar" as Bertrand
Russell
might have said. Unreasonable!
the theist, of course, exempts his own god from this. unreasonable!
2. We all see that every effect or event that displays language,
code,
program, specified complexity, etc requires not only an originating
cause
but a intelligent originating cause. None of us have ever seen where
this is
not the case. Of course the more infomation that is contained in a
smaller
format we all marvel that these human designers are getting smarter,
yet
when it comes to the DNA where more information is contained in the
smallest
format known to man the cell, we say it all came about without
intelligence.
Unreasonable!
but no intelligent causes other than humans are known to exist. the
"first cause" in argument one does not imply an intelligent cause!
furthermore, DNA is just a molecule that follows predictable rules.
these rules do not have "specified complexity" in them, so there is no
reason to assume that any "specified complexity" caused by them is
non-natural. unreasonable!
3. We all se that some acts are better then others, charity is
better then
theft, fedility is better then rape, mercy is better then murder,
etc. Now
how is it that we can even determine this if we somehow are not
endowed to
understand that there is a best, a perfection, an absolutely perfect
standard. It makes no sense at all to say I know this act is better
then
that act and all humans agree unless this standard is there in all
men from
a perfect designer. Unreasonable!
the theist, of course, believes that without a belief in god we would
all be rapists and murderers. but according to the census bureau,
atheists are the LEAST inclidined to commit prisonable crimes! not only
that, but game theory in sociology gives perfectly rational reasons to
be moral! unreasonable!
The three most imprtant questions you should ask.
1. Is there a God.
2. What are the properties of this God. ( What type of God)
3. Has this God spoken and provided evidence for such.
As far as your problem with evil, this is easily answered. God is
*allowing*
evil for a season to test all men as to whether they would turn to
good or
to evil. Good & evil will then be separated and all mankind sealed as
to
where they would wish to be, to live forever with the good which is
God
himself or with evil which is to separate oneself forever from the
good,
which is God.
this of course ignores natural evils, like the tsunami. no human chose
for it to happen, and anybody who had the power to stop the tsunami but
did not would be morally bankrupt! therefore god either does not exist,
or is morally bankrupt!
.
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| User: "Randy Story" |
|
| Title: Re: NO LOGIC OR COMMON SENSE |
09 Feb 2005 01:18:41 PM |
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"snex" <snex@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:1107975658.734353.133510@l41g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
Randy Story wrote:
"Bill" <wmech@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:AtrOd.20806$Th1.16679@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
Some simple logic and common sense that refutes the existence of
any
omnipotent gods
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then where does evil come from?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him a God?
The Christian faiths foundation is not founded on belief in God but
belief
in MEN.
The Bible? Written by MEN. Inspired by God? So MEN say. Which books
are
Scripture? The ones chosen by MEN. What do they mean? What MEN
(including
oneself) say they mean. Dictated by God? So MEN say. What is God
telling you? Whatever MEN (an ordinary human) CLAIM he
is telling you.
Of all the hundreds of God beliefs and claims, how do we know which
is the
real God and which
are fakes? What MEN tell their flock is the real God.
Since no real God shows up in person or on International TV to give
us
anything
to believe in, the only option available to us is to put our trust
in
what MEN say and think about Gods. To put one's faith in the
stories, superstitions, myths and subjective thoughts and feelings
of MEN
is
not faith in God, but faith in MEN, and specifically faith in
what MEN claim about Gods. Ultimately, it is faith in MEN not God!
The objective evidence is rather strong that NO GODS CREATED MAN,
but
quite
the opposite,
that MAN CREATED GODS.
Bill
To Bill, in actually it is atheists that throw out reason at the
highest
level, some examples.
1. We all see that every effect or event, that means something that
begins
needs an originating cause. None of us have ever seen where this is
not the
case that every part of the universe needs a cause, yet when dealing
with
the universe as a whole atheists say " its just Thar" as Bertrand
Russell
might have said. Unreasonable!
the theist, of course, exempts his own god from this. unreasonable!
You cant have an infinite regress of originating causes, the reason that you
must posit God as a necessary being is exactly because of this impossible
fact. In simple terms God is not a effect or event, therefore pure existence
itself without beginning or end. The universe had a beginning and is
limited.
2. We all see that every effect or event that displays language,
code,
program, specified complexity, etc requires not only an originating
cause
but a intelligent originating cause. None of us have ever seen where
this is
not the case. Of course the more infomation that is contained in a
smaller
format we all marvel that these human designers are getting smarter,
yet
when it comes to the DNA where more information is contained in the
smallest
format known to man the cell, we say it all came about without
intelligence.
Unreasonable!
but no intelligent causes other than humans are known to exist. the
"first cause" in argument one does not imply an intelligent cause!
furthermore, DNA is just a molecule that follows predictable rules.
these rules do not have "specified complexity" in them, so there is no
reason to assume that any "specified complexity" caused by them is
non-natural. unreasonable!
That just the point, *all* intelligence design show specified complexity. It
is unreasonable to even suggest that just because we cant behold this
creator that it is not behind all things. My gosh, even you say that the DNA
follows rules or laws. I have yet to see a law or rule not given by a
lawgiver. The DNA is not just a moleclue like say H20, it contains billions
of chemical instructions and you know it.
3. We all se that some acts are better then others, charity is
better then
theft, fedility is better then rape, mercy is better then murder,
etc. Now
how is it that we can even determine this if we somehow are not
endowed to
understand that there is a best, a perfection, an absolutely perfect
standard. It makes no sense at all to say I know this act is better
then
that act and all humans agree unless this standard is there in all
men from
a perfect designer. Unreasonable!
the theist, of course, believes that without a belief in god we would
all be rapists and murderers. but according to the census bureau,
atheists are the LEAST inclidined to commit prisonable crimes! not only
that, but game theory in sociology gives perfectly rational reasons to
be moral! unreasonable!
I did not say only atheists are evil, we all do evil *acts*. The worst
crime of all though is to recieve all good things and use them in our name
and not give credit to the source of these things. This is not for the
creator sakes, it is for ours to see our utter dependence.
The three most imprtant questions you should ask.
1. Is there a God.
2. What are the properties of this God. ( What type of God)
3. Has this God spoken and provided evidence for such.
As far as your problem with evil, this is easily answered. God is
*allowing*
evil for a season to test all men as to whether they would turn to
good or
to evil. Good & evil will then be separated and all mankind sealed as
to
where they would wish to be, to live forever with the good which is
God
himself or with evil which is to separate oneself forever from the
good,
which is God.
this of course ignores natural evils, like the tsunami. no human chose
for it to happen, and anybody who had the power to stop the tsunami but
did not would be morally bankrupt! therefore god either does not exist,
or is morally bankrupt!
Natural evils are no different, they can be allowed by a creator to test men
as to where they will turn. Remember, God can and will at the judgement,
give back life as easy as I snap my fingers, so allowing death or suffering
is no problem. If you give the keys to the car to your kid if they are of
legal age and they get killed and suffer as their dying, are you to blame.
.
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| User: "ZenIsWhen" |
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| Title: Re: NO LOGIC OR COMMON SENSE |
09 Feb 2005 05:57:19 PM |
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"Randy Story" <rstorynw@olypen.com> wrote in message
news:110kokbqsuctg1a@corp.supernews.com...
"snex" <snex@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:1107975658.734353.133510@l41g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
Randy Story wrote:
"Bill" <wmech@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:AtrOd.20806$Th1.16679@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
Some simple logic and common sense that refutes the existence of
any
omnipotent gods
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then where does evil come from?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him a God?
The Christian faiths foundation is not founded on belief in God but
belief
in MEN.
The Bible? Written by MEN. Inspired by God? So MEN say. Which books
are
Scripture? The ones chosen by MEN. What do they mean? What MEN
(including
oneself) say they mean. Dictated by God? So MEN say. What is God
telling you? Whatever MEN (an ordinary human) CLAIM he
is telling you.
Of all the hundreds of God beliefs and claims, how do we know which
is the
real God and which
are fakes? What MEN tell their flock is the real God.
Since no real God shows up in person or on International TV to give
us
anything
to believe in, the only option available to us is to put our trust
in
what MEN say and think about Gods. To put one's faith in the
stories, superstitions, myths and subjective thoughts and feelings
of MEN
is
not faith in God, but faith in MEN, and specifically faith in
what MEN claim about Gods. Ultimately, it is faith in MEN not God!
The objective evidence is rather strong that NO GODS CREATED MAN,
but
quite
the opposite,
that MAN CREATED GODS.
Bill
To Bill, in actually it is atheists that throw out reason at the
highest
level, some examples.
1. We all see that every effect or event, that means something that
begins
needs an originating cause. None of us have ever seen where this is
not the
case that every part of the universe needs a cause, yet when dealing
with
the universe as a whole atheists say " its just Thar" as Bertrand
Russell
might have said. Unreasonable!
the theist, of course, exempts his own god from this. unreasonable!
You cant have an infinite regress of originating causes, the reason that
you
must posit God as a necessary being is exactly because of this impossible
fact.
???????????????
Impossible fact? In what universe? Where is the evidence that this is not
only scientifically claimed, but scientifically supported?
In simple terms God is not a effect or event, therefore pure existence
itself without beginning or end. The universe had a beginning and is
limited.
Proof?
In simple terms, creating a god because YOU don't know any better - means
nothing.
2. We all see that every effect or event that displays language,
code,
program, specified complexity, etc requires not only an originating
cause
but a intelligent originating cause. None of us have ever seen where
this is
not the case. Of course the more infomation that is contained in a
smaller
format we all marvel that these human designers are getting smarter,
yet
when it comes to the DNA where more information is contained in the
smallest
format known to man the cell, we say it all came about without
intelligence.
Unreasonable!
but no intelligent causes other than humans are known to exist. the
"first cause" in argument one does not imply an intelligent cause!
furthermore, DNA is just a molecule that follows predictable rules.
these rules do not have "specified complexity" in them, so there is no
reason to assume that any "specified complexity" caused by them is
non-natural. unreasonable!
That just the point, *all* intelligence design show specified complexity.
It
is unreasonable to even suggest that just because we cant behold this
creator that it is not behind all things. My gosh, even you say that the
DNA
follows rules or laws. I have yet to see a law or rule not given by a
lawgiver. The DNA is not just a moleclue like say H20, it contains
billions
of chemical instructions and you know it.
Again, human laws have a lawgiver ... but that has NOTHING TO DO with
natural laws.
You CANNOT, honestly, compare the two .... but biblethumpers are well know
to be totally dishonest.
3. We all se that some acts are better then others, charity is
better then
theft, fedility is better then rape, mercy is better then murder,
etc. Now
how is it that we can even determine this if we somehow are not
endowed to
understand that there is a best, a perfection, an absolutely perfect
standard. It makes no sense at all to say I know this act is better
then
that act and all humans agree unless this standard is there in all
men from
a perfect designer. Unreasonable!
the theist, of course, believes that without a belief in god we would
all be rapists and murderers. but according to the census bureau,
atheists are the LEAST inclidined to commit prisonable crimes! not only
that, but game theory in sociology gives perfectly rational reasons to
be moral! unreasonable!
I did not say only atheists are evil, we all do evil *acts*. The worst
crime of all though is to recieve all good things and use them in our name
and not give credit to the source of these things. This is not for the
creator sakes, it is for ours to see our utter dependence.
What "source"?
I know a plant gives me food ... so I should thank the plant.
I know a cow gives me milk and meat, so I should thnak the cow.
Beyond that, there is evidence of nothing more.
The three most imprtant questions you should ask.
1. Is there a God.
2. What are the properties of this God. ( What type of God)
3. Has this God spoken and provided evidence for such.
As far as your problem with evil, this is easily answered. God is
*allowing*
evil for a season to test all men as to whether they would turn to
good or
to evil. Good & evil will then be separated and all mankind sealed as
to
where they would wish to be, to live forever with the good which is
God
himself or with evil which is to separate oneself forever from the
good,
which is God.
this of course ignores natural evils, like the tsunami. no human chose
for it to happen, and anybody who had the power to stop the tsunami but
did not would be morally bankrupt! therefore god either does not exist,
or is morally bankrupt!
Natural evils are no different, they can be allowed by a creator to test
men
as to where they will turn. Remember, God can and will at the judgement,
give back life as easy as I snap my fingers, so allowing death or
suffering
is no problem. If you give the keys to the car to your kid if they are of
legal age and they get killed and suffer as their dying, are you to blame.
Again, you arrogantly pretend that you know "god's will".
Not only is your corrupt arrogance overworked - but your sense of reality
leaves a lot to be desired.
.
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| User: "Bill" |
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| Title: Re: NO LOGIC OR COMMON SENSE |
09 Feb 2005 04:45:05 PM |
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|
"Randy Story" <rstorynw@olypen.com> wrote in message
news:110kokbqsuctg1a@corp.supernews.com...
"snex" <snex@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:1107975658.734353.133510@l41g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
Randy Story wrote:
"Bill" <wmech@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:AtrOd.20806$Th1.16679@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
Some simple logic and common sense that refutes the existence of
any
omnipotent gods
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then where does evil come from?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him a God?
The Christian faiths foundation is not founded on belief in God but
belief
in MEN.
The Bible? Written by MEN. Inspired by God? So MEN say. Which books
are
Scripture? The ones chosen by MEN. What do they mean? What MEN
(including
oneself) say they mean. Dictated by God? So MEN say. What is God
telling you? Whatever MEN (an ordinary human) CLAIM he
is telling you.
Of all the hundreds of God beliefs and claims, how do we know which
is the
real God and which
are fakes? What MEN tell their flock is the real God.
Since no real God shows up in person or on International TV to give
us
anything
to believe in, the only option available to us is to put our trust
in
what MEN say and think about Gods. To put one's faith in the
stories, superstitions, myths and subjective thoughts and feelings
of MEN
is
not faith in God, but faith in MEN, and specifically faith in
what MEN claim about Gods. Ultimately, it is faith in MEN not God!
The objective evidence is rather strong that NO GODS CREATED MAN,
but
quite
the opposite,
that MAN CREATED GODS.
Bill
To Bill, in actually it is atheists that throw out reason at the
highest
level, some examples.
1. We all see that every effect or event, that means something that
begins
needs an originating cause. None of us have ever seen where this is
not the
case that every part of the universe needs a cause, yet when dealing
with
the universe as a whole atheists say " its just Thar" as Bertrand
Russell
might have said. Unreasonable!
the theist, of course, exempts his own god from this. unreasonable!
You cant have an infinite regress of originating causes, the reason that
you
must posit God as a necessary being is exactly because of this impossible
fact. In simple terms God is not a effect or event, therefore pure
existence
itself without beginning or end. The universe had a beginning and is
limited.
Pure illogic and nonsense. If the Universe must have a creator because of
it's complexity
than any god must be equally or more complex and requires a creator etc.,
etc.
2. We all see that every effect or event that displays language,
code,
program, specified complexity, etc requires not only an originating
cause
but a intelligent originating cause. None of us have ever seen where
this is
not the case. Of course the more infomation that is contained in a
smaller
format we all marvel that these human designers are getting smarter,
yet
when it comes to the DNA where more information is contained in the
smallest
format known to man the cell, we say it all came about without
intelligence.
Unreasonable!
but no intelligent causes other than humans are known to exist. the
"first cause" in argument one does not imply an intelligent cause!
furthermore, DNA is just a molecule that follows predictable rules.
these rules do not have "specified complexity" in them, so there is no
reason to assume that any "specified complexity" caused by them is
non-natural. unreasonable!
That just the point, *all* intelligence design show specified complexity.
It
is unreasonable to even suggest that just because we cant behold this
creator that it is not behind all things. My gosh, even you say that the
DNA
follows rules or laws. I have yet to see a law or rule not given by a
lawgiver. The DNA is not just a moleclue like say H20, it contains
billions
of chemical instructions and you know it.
3. We all se that some acts are better then others, charity is
better then
theft, fedility is better then rape, mercy is better then murder,
etc. Now
how is it that we can even determine this if we somehow are not
endowed to
understand that there is a best, a perfection, an absolutely perfect
standard. It makes no sense at all to say I know this act is better
then
that act and all humans agree unless this standard is there in all
men from
a perfect designer. Unreasonable!
the theist, of course, believes that without a belief in god we would
all be rapists and murderers. but according to the census bureau,
atheists are the LEAST inclidined to commit prisonable crimes! not only
that, but game theory in sociology gives perfectly rational reasons to
be moral! unreasonable!
I did not say only atheists are evil, we all do evil *acts*. The worst
crime of all though is to recieve all good things and use them in our name
and not give credit to the source of these things. This is not for the
creator sakes, it is for ours to see our utter dependence.
The three most imprtant questions you should ask.
1. Is there a God.
2. What are the properties of this God. ( What type of God)
3. Has this God spoken and provided evidence for such.
As far as your problem with evil, this is easily answered. God is
*allowing*
evil for a season to test all men as to whether they would turn to
good or
to evil. Good & evil will then be separated and all mankind sealed as
to
where they would wish to be, to live forever with the good which is
God
himself or with evil which is to separate oneself forever from the
good,
which is God.
this of course ignores natural evils, like the tsunami. no human chose
for it to happen, and anybody who had the power to stop the tsunami but
did not would be morally bankrupt! therefore god either does not exist,
or is morally bankrupt!
Natural evils are no different, they can be allowed by a creator to test
men
as to where they will turn. Remember, God can and will at the judgement,
give back life as easy as I snap my fingers, so allowing death or
suffering
is no problem. If you give the keys to the car to your kid if they are of
legal age and they get killed and suffer as their dying, are you to blame.
.
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| User: "Randy Story" |
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| Title: Re: NO LOGIC OR COMMON SENSE |
09 Feb 2005 04:56:20 PM |
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You cant have an infinite regress of originating causes, the reason that
you
must posit God as a necessary being is exactly because of this
impossible
fact. In simple terms God is not a effect or event, therefore pure
existence
itself without beginning or end. The universe had a beginning and is
limited.
Pure illogic and nonsense. If the Universe must have a creator because of
it's complexity
than any god must be equally or more complex and requires a creator etc.,
etc.
By complex most people mean composed or put together, this would go along
with the idea of having a beginning. The first cause is not complex or
composed, it would have to be pure uncomposed energy or what some call
spirit. The first cause would be being itself, pure existence without
beginning or end. Being pure uncomposed energy would not rule out it being
intelligence itself either.
.
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| User: "Al Klein" |
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| Title: Re: NO LOGIC OR COMMON SENSE |
09 Feb 2005 11:30:48 PM |
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On Wed, 9 Feb 2005 14:56:20 -0800, "Randy Story" <rstorynw@olypen.com>
said in alt.atheism:
By complex most people mean composed or put together, this would go along
with the idea of having a beginning. The first cause is not complex or
composed
The argument goes that the universe is too complex to have not been
designed. The designer, logically, would have had to be even more
complex. Remember, the argument against evolution is that things
can't get more complex from nothing? So the designer MUST be more
complex than the design for your arguments to be consistent. The
rules don't change mid-argument.
So which is it? Evolution can form complex forms from simpler ones,
or the creator has to be more complex than the universe? You can't
have both.
--
"Does it ever amaze anyone else how little faith some heterosexuals have
in heterosexuality? It's supposed to be this god-given human instinct
that only the warped and perverted ever stray from; but, it seems, if we
once tell our straight children a message even as mild as "some people
are gay, and that's all right," that'll be enough to send lil' Suzy into
the arms of women forever. It's a wonder the race has survived this
long, really..."
- Charles M Seaton (21 Dec 1994)
(random sig, produced by SigChanger)
rukbat at verizon dot net
.
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| User: "Josef Balluch" |
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| Title: Re: NO LOGIC OR COMMON SENSE |
09 Feb 2005 08:17:38 PM |
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In a message sent 'round the world, Randy Story poured fuel on the fire
with the following:
....
Natural evils are no different, they can be allowed by a creator to test men
as to where they will turn.
Your "perfect" deity has no needs or wants, as you have previously
acknowledged. Your deity thus has no need or desire to "test" anyone.
Regards,
Josef
The class of those who have the ability to think their own thoughts is
separated by an unbridgeable gulf from the class of those who cannot.
-- Ludwig von Mises
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| User: "Josef Balluch" |
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| Title: Re: NO LOGIC OR COMMON SENSE |
09 Feb 2005 07:38:49 PM |
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In a message sent 'round the world, Randy Story poured fuel on the fire
with the following:
....
You cant have an infinite regress of originating causes, ...
Sez who, Randy?
... the reason that you
must posit God as a necessary being is exactly because of this impossible
fact.
Even if a "first cause" is required, this in no way establishes the
nature of that cause. Your claim that your deity is a necessary being is
unsupported hogwash.
In simple terms God is not a effect or event, therefore pure existence
itself without beginning or end.
In simple terms, you're babbling.
The universe had a beginning and is
limited.
Prove it.
....
That just the point, *all* intelligence design show specified complexity.
Unsupported assertion.
It
is unreasonable to even suggest that just because we cant behold this
creator that it is not behind all things.
It is quite reasonable, since your "creator" is a demonstrable fallacy.
My gosh, even you say that the DNA
follows rules or laws. I have yet to see a law or rule not given by a
lawgiver.
Argument from Ignorance.
....
I did not say only atheists are evil, we all do evil *acts*. The worst
crime of all though is to recieve all good things and use them in our name
and not give credit to the source of these things.
Really? The worst? Worse than mass genocide?
This is not for the
creator sakes, it is for ours to see our utter dependence.
This contradicts your claim that failure to do so is the "worst crime".
Who is the victim of this unspeakable crime, Randy?
....
Regards,
Josef
I said that he was free who is led by reason alone.
-- Baruch de Spinoza
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| User: "Al Klein" |
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| Title: Re: NO LOGIC OR COMMON SENSE |
09 Feb 2005 08:22:46 PM |
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On Wed, 9 Feb 2005 11:18:41 -0800, "Randy Story" <rstorynw@olypen.com>
said in alt.atheism:
You cant have an infinite regress of originating causes
And you can't have an original causeless cause.
In simple terms God is not a effect or event
Neither is the universe.
therefore pure existence itself without beginning or end.
Since there was no time at which there was no universe, the universe
is also without a beginning.
The universe had a beginning
Nope - there was no time at which there was no universe, so it had no
beginning.
That just the point, *all* intelligence design show specified complexity.
You first have to show that the universe was designed.
Then you have to show that there's an intelligent designer.
THEN, and only then, you can talk about "intelligent design".
I have yet to see a law or rule not given by a lawgiver.
ALL "natural laws" are observations of people, not laws "given by a
lawgiver".
The DNA is not just a moleclue like say H20, it contains billions
of chemical instructions and you know it.
No, it contains billions of base pairs - there's a difference. It
doesn't contain any "instructions" in the sense you mean it. It's a
complex molecule, just like polypropylene.
I did not say only atheists are evil, we all do evil *acts*. The worst
crime of all though is to recieve all good things
No one receives all good things.
and use them in our name
and not give credit to the source of these things.
Or to credit them to some make-believe god.
This is not for the
creator sakes, it is for ours to see our utter dependence.
You can demean yourself if you like - that doesn't mean that we have
to.
--
"A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything."
- Friedrich Nietzsche
(random sig, produced by SigChanger)
rukbat at verizon dot net
.
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| User: "snex" |
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| Title: Re: NO LOGIC OR COMMON SENSE |
09 Feb 2005 01:30:08 PM |
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|
Randy Story wrote:
"snex" <snex@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:1107975658.734353.133510@l41g2000cwc.googlegroups.com...
Randy Story wrote:
"Bill" <wmech@worldnet.att.net> wrote in message
news:AtrOd.20806$Th1.16679@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net...
Some simple logic and common sense that refutes the existence
of
any
omnipotent gods
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then where does evil come from?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him a God?
The Christian faiths foundation is not founded on belief in God
but
belief
in MEN.
The Bible? Written by MEN. Inspired by God? So MEN say. Which
books
are
Scripture? The ones chosen by MEN. What do they mean? What MEN
(including
oneself) say they mean. Dictated by God? So MEN say. What is
God
telling you? Whatever MEN (an ordinary human) CLAIM he
is telling you.
Of all the hundreds of God beliefs and claims, how do we know
which
is the
real God and which
are fakes? What MEN tell their flock is the real God.
Since no real God shows up in person or on International TV to
give
us
anything
to believe in, the only option available to us is to put our
trust
in
what MEN say and think about Gods. To put one's faith in the
stories, superstitions, myths and subjective thoughts and
feelings
of MEN
is
not faith in God, but faith in MEN, and specifically faith in
what MEN claim about Gods. Ultimately, it is faith in MEN not
God!
The objective evidence is rather strong that NO GODS CREATED
MAN,
but
quite
the opposite,
that MAN CREATED GODS.
Bill
To Bill, in actually it is atheists that throw out reason at the
highest
level, some examples.
1. We all see that every effect or event, that means something
that
begins
needs an originating cause. None of us have ever seen where this
is
not the
case that every part of the universe needs a cause, yet when
dealing
with
the universe as a whole atheists say " its just Thar" as Bertrand
Russell
might have said. Unreasonable!
the theist, of course, exempts his own god from this. unreasonable!
You cant have an infinite regress of originating causes, the reason
that you
must posit God as a necessary being is exactly because of this
impossible
fact. In simple terms God is not a effect or event, therefore pure
existence
itself without beginning or end. The universe had a beginning and is
limited.
nobody says you can have an infinite regress. but there is absolutely
no reason to assume that the first cause was intelligent or conscious.
it defies all logic to say otherwise.
2. We all see that every effect or event that displays language,
code,
program, specified complexity, etc requires not only an
originating
cause
but a intelligent originating cause. None of us have ever seen
where
this is
not the case. Of course the more infomation that is contained in
a
smaller
format we all marvel that these human designers are getting
smarter,
yet
when it comes to the DNA where more information is contained in
the
smallest
format known to man the cell, we say it all came about without
intelligence.
Unreasonable!
but no intelligent causes other than humans are known to exist. the
"first cause" in argument one does not imply an intelligent cause!
furthermore, DNA is just a molecule that follows predictable rules.
these rules do not have "specified complexity" in them, so there is
no
reason to assume that any "specified complexity" caused by them is
non-natural. unreasonable!
That just the point, *all* intelligence design show specified
complexity. It
is unreasonable to even suggest that just because we cant behold this
creator that it is not behind all things. My gosh, even you say that
the DNA
follows rules or laws. I have yet to see a law or rule not given by a
lawgiver. The DNA is not just a moleclue like say H20, it contains
billions
of chemical instructions and you know it.
really? does a shovel display specified complexity?
ive seen a law not given by a lawgiver. its called the first law of
thermodynamics. no lawgiver has given this law.
having chemical "instructions" has very little to do with anything. DNA
is an imperfect self-replicator, and imperfect self-replicators ALWAYS
evolve. there has never been a case where this is not so. all you need
is one very simple self-replicator (and these do exist btw) to get the
ball rolling.
3. We all se that some acts are better then others, charity is
better then
theft, fedility is better then rape, mercy is better then murder,
etc. Now
how is it that we can even determine this if we somehow are not
endowed to
understand that there is a best, a perfection, an absolutely
perfect
standard. It makes no sense at all to say I know this act is
better
then
that act and all humans agree unless this standard is there in
all
men from
a perfect designer. Unreasonable!
the theist, of course, believes that without a belief in god we
would
all be rapists and murderers. but according to the census bureau,
atheists are the LEAST inclidined to commit prisonable crimes! not
only
that, but game theory in sociology gives perfectly rational reasons
to
be moral! unreasonable!
I did not say only atheists are evil, we all do evil *acts*. The
worst
crime of all though is to recieve all good things and use them in our
name
and not give credit to the source of these things. This is not for
the
creator sakes, it is for ours to see our utter dependence.
i do give credit to the source of these things. i thank the founding
fathers for writing the constitution. i thank john stuart mill for his
writings on free speech. i thank scientists for giving me the ability
to use technology. no supernatural being has ever done anything for me.
The three most imprtant questions you should ask.
1. Is there a God.
2. What are the properties of this God. ( What type of God)
3. Has this God spoken and provided evidence for such.
As far as your problem with evil, this is easily answered. God is
*allowing*
evil for a season to test all men as to whether they would turn
to
good or
to evil. Good & evil will then be separated and all mankind
sealed as
to
where they would wish to be, to live forever with the good which
is
God
himself or with evil which is to separate oneself forever from
the
good,
which is God.
this of course ignores natural evils, like the tsunami. no human
chose
for it to happen, and anybody who had the power to stop the tsunami
but
did not would be morally bankrupt! therefore god either does not
exist,
or is morally bankrupt!
Natural evils are no different, they can be allowed by a creator to
test men
as to where they will turn. Remember, God can and will at the
judgement,
give back life as easy as I snap my fingers, so allowing death or
suffering
is no problem. If you give the keys to the car to your kid if they
are of
legal age and they get killed and suffer as their dying, are you to
blame.
you equate giving your 16 year old child the keys to the car with a
tsunami that killed over 100,000 people! its amazing how sick and
twisted theists are! the 16 year old had the choice to drive safely,
what choice did the people who died in the tsunami have?
.
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| User: "Randy Story" |
|
| Title: Re: NO LOGIC OR COMMON SENSE |
09 Feb 2005 01:46:13 PM |
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nobody says you can have an infinite regress. but there is absolutely
no reason to assume that the first cause was intelligent or conscious.
it defies all logic to say otherwise.
Tell me how it defies all logic, please.
That just the point, *all* intelligence design show specified
complexity. It
is unreasonable to even suggest that just because we cant behold this
creator that it is not behind all things. My gosh, even you say that
the DNA
follows rules or laws. I have yet to see a law or rule not given by a
lawgiver. The DNA is not just a moleclue like say H20, it contains
billions
of chemical instructions and you know it.
really? does a shovel display specified complexity?
Yes it does just like an arrowhead. We humans can surely see design. Thats
why its so unreasonable to suggest that the DNA is not designed.
having chemical "instructions" has very little to do with anything. DNA
is an imperfect self-replicator, and imperfect self-replicators ALWAYS
evolve. there has never been a case where this is not so. all you need
is one very simple self-replicator (and these do exist btw) to get the
ball rolling.
Ther are no self replicators that are not designed unless of course you use
biology which is what were debating about.
I did not say only atheists are evil, we all do evil *acts*. The
worst
crime of all though is to recieve all good things and use them in our
name
and not give credit to the source of these things. This is not for
the
creator sakes, it is for ours to see our utter dependence.
i do give credit to the source of these things. i thank the founding
fathers for writing the constitution. i thank john stuart mill for his
writings on free speech. i thank scientists for giving me the ability
to use technology. no supernatural being has ever done anything for me
Natural evils are no different, they can be allowed by a creator to
test men
as to where they will turn. Remember, God can and will at the
judgement,
give back life as easy as I snap my fingers, so allowing death or
suffering
is no problem. If you give the keys to the car to your kid if they
are of
legal age and they get killed and suffer as their dying, are you to
blame.
you equate giving your 16 year old child the keys to the car with a
tsunami that killed over 100,000 people! its amazing how sick and
twisted theists are! the 16 year old had the choice to drive safely,
what choice did the people who died in the tsunami have?
I did not equate anything. It doesnt matter what you think of my ethics.
What matters is truth and logic. In this respect theism & ID. is miles ahead
in its reasonable approach.
.
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| User: "ZenIsWhen" |
|
| Title: Re: NO LOGIC OR COMMON SENSE |
09 Feb 2005 05:59:01 PM |
|
|
"Randy Story" <rstorynw@olypen.com> wrote in message
news:110kq7uk0k3av3b@corp.supernews.com...
nobody says you can have an infinite regress. but there is absolutely
no reason to assume that the first cause was intelligent or conscious.
it defies all logic to say otherwise.
Tell me how it defies all logic, please.
It is nothing more than a blatantly ignorant claim, unsupported by ANYTHING
in science or reality. THERE IS NO EVIDENCE!!!!!
.
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| User: "Al Klein" |
|
| Title: Re: NO LOGIC OR COMMON SENSE |
09 Feb 2005 08:27:04 PM |
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On Wed, 9 Feb 2005 11:46:13 -0800, "Randy Story" <rstorynw@olypen.com>
said in alt.atheism:
really? does a shovel display specified complexity?
Yes it does just like an arrowhead.
How?
We humans can surely see design.
We can see the "design" in an individual snowflake also. Except that
we know it wasn't designed.
Thats why its so unreasonable to suggest that the DNA is not designed.
No more unreasonable than to suggest that snowflakes aren't
individually designed.
having chemical "instructions" has very little to do with anything. DNA
is an imperfect self-replicator, and imperfect self-replicators ALWAYS
evolve. there has never been a case where this is not so. all you need
is one very simple self-replicator (and these do exist btw) to get the
ball rolling.
Ther are no self replicators that are not designed
Only if you define them as being designed. Crystals aren't designed,
but they self-replicate. Viruses aren't designed, and they aren't
alive, but they self-replicate.
What matters is truth and logic.
Then try learning some logic and practicing some truth.
--
"I believe in Spinoza's God who reveals himself in the harmony of all that exists, but
not in a God who concerns himself with the fate and actions of human beings."
-A. Einstein (1929 -- Einstein Archive 33-272)
(random sig, produced by SigChanger)
rukbat at verizon dot net
.
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| User: "Bill" |
|
| Title: Re: NO LOGIC OR COMMON SENSE |
10 Feb 2005 09:22:23 AM |
|
|
I like and am impressed your incisive logic.
--
Bill
"Al Klein" <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote in message
news:pchl01la6q2b9p1ml55sjbr4fsmak8p3i8@4ax.com...
On Wed, 9 Feb 2005 11:46:13 -0800, "Randy Story" <rstorynw@olypen.com>
said in alt.atheism:
really? does a shovel display specified complexity?
Yes it does just like an arrowhead.
How?
We humans can surely see design.
We can see the "design" in an individual snowflake also. Except that
we know it wasn't designed.
Thats why its so unreasonable to suggest that the DNA is not designed.
No more unreasonable than to suggest that snowflakes aren't
individually designed.
having chemical "instructions" has very little to do with anything. DNA
is an imperfect self-replicator, and imperfect self-replicators ALWAYS
evolve. there has never been a case where this is not so. all you need
is one very simple self-replicator (and these do exist btw) to get the
ball rolling.
Ther are no self replicators that are not designed
Only if you define them as being designed. Crystals aren't designed,
but they self-replicate. Viruses aren't designed, and they aren't
alive, but they self-replicate.
What matters is truth and logic.
Then try learning some logic and practicing some truth.
--
"I believe in Spinoza's God who reveals himself in the harmony of all
that exists, but
not in a God who concerns himself with the fate and actions of human
beings."
-A. Einstein (1929 -- Einstein Archive 33-272)
(random sig, produced by SigChanger)
rukbat at verizon dot net
.
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| User: "Al Klein" |
|
| Title: Re: NO LOGIC OR COMMON SENSE |
10 Feb 2005 06:50:21 PM |
|
|
On Thu, 10 Feb 2005 15:22:23 GMT, "Bill" <wmech@worldnet.att.net> said
in alt.atheism:
I like and am impressed your incisive logic.
The old guy still has a little left, eh?
--
"I have repeatedly said that in my opinion the idea of a personal God is
a childlike one. You may call me an agnostic, but I do not share the
crusading spirit of the professional atheist whose fervor is mostly due
to a painful act of liberation from the fetters of religious
indoctrination received in youth. I prefer an attitude of humility
corresponding to the weakness of our intellectual understanding of
nature and of our own being."
- Albert Einstein to Guy H. Raner Jr., Sept. 28, 1949, from article by
Michael R. Gilmore in Skeptic magazine, Vol. 5, No. 2, 1997
(random sig, produced by SigChanger)
rukbat at verizon dot net
.
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| User: "snex" |
|
| Title: Re: NO LOGIC OR COMMON SENSE |
09 Feb 2005 03:41:41 PM |
|
|
Randy Story wrote:
nobody says you can have an infinite regress. but there is
absolutely
no reason to assume that the first cause was intelligent or
conscious.
it defies all logic to say otherwise.
Tell me how it defies all logic, please.
here is your argument:
P1) all things need a cause (except the first cause)
P2) the universe is a thing that needs a cause (since it began at some
point)
C1) the cause of the universe is an intelligent conscious being
this does not follow!
That just the point, *all* intelligence design show specified
complexity. It
is unreasonable to even suggest that just because we cant behold
this
creator that it is not behind all things. My gosh, even you say
that
the DNA
follows rules or laws. I have yet to see a law or rule not given
by a
lawgiver. The DNA is not just a moleclue like say H20, it
contains
billions
of chemical instructions and you know it.
really? does a shovel display specified complexity?
Yes it does just like an arrowhead. We humans can surely see design.
Thats
why its so unreasonable to suggest that the DNA is not designed.
neither a shovel nor an arrowhead displays "specified complexity." i
can use perfectly natural rocks for either purpose. are those rocks
therefore designed?
having chemical "instructions" has very little to do with anything.
DNA
is an imperfect self-replicator, and imperfect self-replicators
ALWAYS
evolve. there has never been a case where this is not so. all you
need
is one very simple self-replicator (and these do exist btw) to get
the
ball rolling.
Ther are no self replicators that are not designed unless of course
you use
biology which is what were debating about.
there are in computer simulations.
I did not say only atheists are evil, we all do evil *acts*. The
worst
crime of all though is to recieve all good things and use them in
our
name
and not give credit to the source of these things. This is not
for
the
creator sakes, it is for ours to see our utter dependence.
i do give credit to the source of these things. i thank the
founding
fathers for writing the constitution. i thank john stuart mill for
his
writings on free speech. i thank scientists for giving me the
ability
to use technology. no supernatural being has ever done anything for
me
Natural evils are no different, they can be allowed by a creator
to
test men
as to where they will turn. Remember, God can and will at the
judgement,
give back life as easy as I snap my fingers, so allowing death or
suffering
is no problem. If you give the keys to the car to your kid if
they
are of
legal age and they get killed and suffer as their dying, are you
to
blame.
you equate giving your 16 year old child the keys to the car with a
tsunami that killed over 100,000 people! its amazing how sick and
twisted theists are! the 16 year old had the choice to drive
safely,
what choice did the people who died in the tsunami have?
I did not equate anything. It doesnt matter what you think of my
ethics.
What matters is truth and logic. In this respect theism & ID. is
miles ahead
in its reasonable approach.
you very much did equate it, you are the one that brought up the
analogy. theism and & ID are worthless, and that is why mainstream
scientists ignore them,
.
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