[OHIO] Governor's defense of nativity scenes challenged



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Topic: Religions > Atheism
User: "buckeye"
Date: 16 Dec 2007 04:04:10 AM
Object: [OHIO] Governor's defense of nativity scenes challenged
http://www.ohio.com/news/ap?articleID=284966&c=y
Governor's defense of nativity scenes challenged
By JULIE CARR SMYTH AP Statehouse Correspondent
Published on Friday Dec 14, 2007
Gov. Ted Strickland's decision to allow nativity displays in state parks
has drawn the ire of a group that opposes mingling church and state, which
has asked the state's chief watchdog to investigate whether his action was
constitutional.
The Madison, Wis.-based Freedom From Religion Foundation accuses Strickland
of violating his oath of office to uphold the Constitutions of Ohio and the
United States by allowing the religious displays.
"Once the governor of Ohio enters into the religion business, conferring
endorsement and preference for one religion over others, he strikes a blow
at religious liberty by forcing taxpayers of all faiths and of no religion
to support a particular expression of worship," wrote Annie Laurie Gaylor,
foundation co-president, in a Friday letter to Ohio Inspector General Tom
Charles.
Shawnee State Park in Scioto County in southern Ohio and Malabar Farm in
Richland County in north-central Ohio had taken down manger scenes,
depicting the birth of Christ in a stable, following a complaint.
Strickland, an ordained Methodist minister, instructed the parks to
resurrect them.
A Shawnee visitor had argued that large figures representing the Hindu and
Zoroastrian religions should be displayed, too.
The Ohio Department of Natural Resources sided with the visitor based on
the principle of separation of church and state by banning the creches.
Strickland spokesman Keith Dailey responded at the time by saying the
governor decided the nativity scenes should be restored to the state parks
because they're appropriate and traditional. He said a Zoroastrian symbol
would not be acceptable, because it's not traditionally displayed for the
holidays.
"A nativity scene is perfectly appropriate in terms of a holiday display,
as would be Christmas trees and reindeer, or Frosty the Snowman," Dailey
said Friday.
Gaylor argued otherwise, noting that the U.S. Supreme Court ruled in 1983
that a nativity scene may not be the sole focus of a display on government
property, and in 1989 that religious symbols may not be displayed as part
of a government building. She said Strickland's decision pressures people
to conform to a majority religion.
David Goldberger, a constitutional law professor at Ohio State University's
Moritz College of Law, said the high court has repeatedly ruled against
government-sanctioned religious displays _ but it depends whether they are
stand-alone or part of a larger holiday scene.
Freestanding nativity displays are a problem but those that are part of
seasonal displays have been ruled constitutional, he said.
***************************************************************
You are invited to check out the following:
The Rise of the Theocratic States of America
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/theocracy.htm
American Theocrats - Past and Present
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/theocrats.htm
The Constitutional Principle: Separation of Church and State
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/index.html
[and to join the discussion group for the above site and/or Separation of
Church and State in general, listed below]
HRSepCnS · Historical Reality SepChurch&State
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HRSepCnS/
***************************************************************
.. . . You can't understand a phrase such as "Congress shall make no law
respecting an establishment of religion" by syllogistic reasoning. Words
take their meaning from social as well as textual contexts, which is why "a
page of history is worth a volume of logic." New York Trust Co. v. Eisner,
256 U.S. 345, 349, 41 S.Ct. 506, 507, 65 L.Ed. 963 (1921) (Holmes, J.).
Sherman v. Community Consol. Dist. 21, 980 F.2d 437, 445 (7th Cir. 1992)
.. . .
****************************************************************
USAF LT. COL (Ret) Buffman (Glen P. Goffin) wrote
"You pilot always into an unknown future;
facts are your only clue. Get the facts!"
That philosophy 'snipit' helped to get me, and my crew, through a good
many combat missions and far too many scary, inflight, emergencies.
It has also played a significant role in helping me to expose the
plethora of radical Christian propaganda and lies that we find at
almost every media turn.
*****************************************************************
THE CONSTITUTIONAL PRINCIPLE:
SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE

http://members.tripod.com/~candst/index.html
****************************************************************
.

User: "Greywolf"

Title: Re: [OHIO] Governor's defense of nativity scenes challenged 16 Dec 2007 07:17:47 AM
"buckeye" <buckeyeelo@nospam.net> wrote in message
news:e0u9m3teh6vmnif2q2hvul7e73el5jrb97@4ax.com...

http://www.ohio.com/news/ap?articleID=284966&c=y

Governor's defense of nativity scenes challenged

By JULIE CARR SMYTH AP Statehouse Correspondent

Published on Friday Dec 14, 2007

Gov. Ted Strickland's decision to allow nativity displays in state parks
has drawn the ire of a group that opposes mingling church and state, which
has asked the state's chief watchdog to investigate whether his action was
constitutional.

The Madison, Wis.-based Freedom From Religion Foundation accuses
Strickland
of violating his oath of office to uphold the Constitutions of Ohio and
the
United States by allowing the religious displays.

"Once the governor of Ohio enters into the religion business, conferring
endorsement and preference for one religion over others, he strikes a blow
at religious liberty by forcing taxpayers of all faiths and of no religion
to support a particular expression of worship," wrote Annie Laurie Gaylor,
foundation co-president, in a Friday letter to Ohio Inspector General Tom
Charles.

Shawnee State Park in Scioto County in southern Ohio and Malabar Farm in
Richland County in north-central Ohio had taken down manger scenes,
depicting the birth of Christ in a stable, following a complaint.
Strickland, an ordained Methodist minister, instructed the parks to
resurrect them.

A Shawnee visitor had argued that large figures representing the Hindu and
Zoroastrian religions should be displayed, too.

The Ohio Department of Natural Resources sided with the visitor based on
the principle of separation of church and state by banning the creches.

Strickland spokesman Keith Dailey responded at the time by saying the
governor decided the nativity scenes should be restored to the state parks
because they're appropriate and traditional. He said a Zoroastrian symbol
would not be acceptable, because it's not traditionally displayed for the
holidays.

"A nativity scene is perfectly appropriate in terms of a holiday display,
as would be Christmas trees and reindeer, or Frosty the Snowman," Dailey
said Friday.

Gaylor argued otherwise, noting that the U.S. Supreme Court ruled in 1983
that a nativity scene may not be the sole focus of a display on government
property, and in 1989 that religious symbols may not be displayed as part
of a government building. She said Strickland's decision pressures people
to conform to a majority religion.

David Goldberger, a constitutional law professor at Ohio State
University's
Moritz College of Law, said the high court has repeatedly ruled against
government-sanctioned religious displays _ but it depends whether they are
stand-alone or part of a larger holiday scene.

Freestanding nativity displays are a problem but those that are part of
seasonal displays have been ruled constitutional, he said.

***************************************************************
You are invited to check out the following:

The Rise of the Theocratic States of America
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/theocracy.htm

American Theocrats - Past and Present
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/theocrats.htm

The Constitutional Principle: Separation of Church and State
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/index.html

[and to join the discussion group for the above site and/or Separation of
Church and State in general, listed below]

HRSepCnS · Historical Reality SepChurch&State
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HRSepCnS/

***************************************************************
. . . You can't understand a phrase such as "Congress shall make no law
respecting an establishment of religion" by syllogistic reasoning. Words
take their meaning from social as well as textual contexts, which is why
"a
page of history is worth a volume of logic." New York Trust Co. v.
Eisner,
256 U.S. 345, 349, 41 S.Ct. 506, 507, 65 L.Ed. 963 (1921) (Holmes, J.).
Sherman v. Community Consol. Dist. 21, 980 F.2d 437, 445 (7th Cir. 1992)
. . .
****************************************************************
USAF LT. COL (Ret) Buffman (Glen P. Goffin) wrote

"You pilot always into an unknown future;
facts are your only clue. Get the facts!"

That philosophy 'snipit' helped to get me, and my crew, through a good
many combat missions and far too many scary, inflight, emergencies.

It has also played a significant role in helping me to expose the
plethora of radical Christian propaganda and lies that we find at
almost every media turn.

*****************************************************************
THE CONSTITUTIONAL PRINCIPLE:
SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE

http://members.tripod.com/~candst/index.html
****************************************************************

Maybe governors and the bag of other city and state officials across the
nation who can't harbor the thought of celebrating 'Christmas' without
nativity displays being exhibited on government, 'church and state
separated' land, ought be accommodated. Let them help favor one particular
religion over all the rest -- *provided* that they construct alongside it an
equally 'life-like' depiction of Christians torturing non-Christians (or
Christians of another 'stripe') in the name of baby Jesus in an
'Inquisition-type Display' of one form or another. It would help remind
those passing by exactly what over-zealous Christian fanatics have been
responsible for during this festive, Holiday season.
Merry Christmas!
Greywolf
.
User: "Ben Kaufman"

Title: Re: [OHIO] Governor's defense of nativity scenes challenged 16 Dec 2007 02:03:50 PM
On Sun, 16 Dec 2007 07:17:47 -0600, "Greywolf" <greywolf@cybrzn.com> wrote:


"buckeye" <buckeyeelo@nospam.net> wrote in message
news:e0u9m3teh6vmnif2q2hvul7e73el5jrb97@4ax.com...

http://www.ohio.com/news/ap?articleID=284966&c=y

Governor's defense of nativity scenes challenged

By JULIE CARR SMYTH AP Statehouse Correspondent

Published on Friday Dec 14, 2007

<SNIP>

Maybe governors and the bag of other city and state officials across the
nation who can't harbor the thought of celebrating 'Christmas' without
nativity displays being exhibited on government, 'church and state
separated' land, ought be accommodated. Let them help favor one particular
religion over all the rest -- *provided* that they construct alongside it an
equally 'life-like' depiction of Christians torturing non-Christians (or
Christians of another 'stripe') in the name of baby Jesus in an
'Inquisition-type Display' of one form or another. It would help remind
those passing by exactly what over-zealous Christian fanatics have been
responsible for during this festive, Holiday season.

Merry Christmas!

Greywolf

I could be wrong but isn't that what a Zoroastrian symbol is? :-)
Ben
.
User: "Greywolf"

Title: Re: [OHIO] Governor's defense of nativity scenes challenged 17 Dec 2007 10:57:10 PM
"Ben Kaufman" <spaXm-mXe-anXd-paXy-5000-dollars@pobox.com> wrote in message
news:u11bm3l8mbrruh597fiq75cvaettollhfi@4ax.com...

On Sun, 16 Dec 2007 07:17:47 -0600, "Greywolf" <greywolf@cybrzn.com>
wrote:


"buckeye" <buckeyeelo@nospam.net> wrote in message
news:e0u9m3teh6vmnif2q2hvul7e73el5jrb97@4ax.com...

http://www.ohio.com/news/ap?articleID=284966&c=y

Governor's defense of nativity scenes challenged

By JULIE CARR SMYTH AP Statehouse Correspondent

Published on Friday Dec 14, 2007

<SNIP>

Maybe governors and the bag of other city and state officials across the
nation who can't harbor the thought of celebrating 'Christmas' without
nativity displays being exhibited on government, 'church and state
separated' land, ought be accommodated. Let them help favor one particular
religion over all the rest -- *provided* that they construct alongside it
an
equally 'life-like' depiction of Christians torturing non-Christians (or
Christians of another 'stripe') in the name of baby Jesus in an
'Inquisition-type Display' of one form or another. It would help remind
those passing by exactly what over-zealous Christian fanatics have been
responsible for during this festive, Holiday season.

Merry Christmas!

Greywolf


I could be wrong but isn't that what a Zoroastrian symbol is? :-)

Ben

Ooooo. Got to this quite late.
I'm not quite sure what you're referring to. I 'Googled 'Zoroastrian
displays' in Google Images to see if I could pick up a clue but failed to do
so.
Greywolf
.
User: "Ben Kaufman"

Title: Re: [OHIO] Governor's defense of nativity scenes challenged 18 Dec 2007 10:51:09 PM
On Mon, 17 Dec 2007 22:57:10 -0600, "Greywolf" <greywolf@cybrzn.com> wrote:


"Ben Kaufman" <spaXm-mXe-anXd-paXy-5000-dollars@pobox.com> wrote in message
news:u11bm3l8mbrruh597fiq75cvaettollhfi@4ax.com...

On Sun, 16 Dec 2007 07:17:47 -0600, "Greywolf" <greywolf@cybrzn.com>
wrote:


"buckeye" <buckeyeelo@nospam.net> wrote in message
news:e0u9m3teh6vmnif2q2hvul7e73el5jrb97@4ax.com...

http://www.ohio.com/news/ap?articleID=284966&c=y

Governor's defense of nativity scenes challenged

By JULIE CARR SMYTH AP Statehouse Correspondent

Published on Friday Dec 14, 2007

<SNIP>

Maybe governors and the bag of other city and state officials across the
nation who can't harbor the thought of celebrating 'Christmas' without
nativity displays being exhibited on government, 'church and state
separated' land, ought be accommodated. Let them help favor one particular
religion over all the rest -- *provided* that they construct alongside it
an
equally 'life-like' depiction of Christians torturing non-Christians (or
Christians of another 'stripe') in the name of baby Jesus in an
'Inquisition-type Display' of one form or another. It would help remind
those passing by exactly what over-zealous Christian fanatics have been
responsible for during this festive, Holiday season.

Merry Christmas!

Greywolf


I could be wrong but isn't that what a Zoroastrian symbol is? :-)

Ben


Ooooo. Got to this quite late.

I'm not quite sure what you're referring to. I 'Googled 'Zoroastrian
displays' in Google Images to see if I could pick up a clue but failed to do
so.

Greywolf

I hope you noticed the smiley. That said, in the full article included,
"...A Shawnee visitor had argued that large figures representing the Hindu and
Zoroastrian religions should be displayed, too...."
Ben
.





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