On Ten Commandment , Christian Right has it wrong



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Topic: Religions > Atheism
User: ""
Date: 26 Jul 2005 07:53:08 AM
Object: On Ten Commandment , Christian Right has it wrong
The Christian Science Monitor
Commentary > Opinion
from the April 21, 2004 edition
On Ten Commandments bill, Christian Right has it wrong
By Frederick Clarkson
http://www.csmonitor.com/2004/0421/p09s01-coop.html
[excerpt]
Although Moore's movement has gained some political traction, its core
premise has a fundamental flaw: It aims to "restore" a Christian
constitution that never existed. And this presents challenges for Moore and
his allies as they attempt to invoke the framers of the Constitution in
support of their contemporary notions of a Biblically based society.
Last August, for example, James Dobson, head of Focus on the Family,
rallied with Moore in front of the Alabama state courthouse.
"I checked yesterday with my research team," Dr. Dobson announced. "There
are only two references to religion in the Constitution." The first, from
the preamble, he said, refers to securing "the blessings of liberty,"
which, he asserted, "came from God" (although there is nothing in the
document to support that view.) The other was the First Amendment's
establishment clause that, he said, "has given such occasion for mischief
by the Supreme Court."
However, Dobson's researchers missed - or ignored - Article Six of the
Constitution. That's the one barring religious tests for public office and
set in motion disestablishment of the Christian churches that had served as
arbiters of colonial citizenship and government for 150 years.
Mainstream historian Gary Wills writes that the framers' major innovation
was "disestablishment."
"No other government in the history of the world," he writes, "had launched
itself without the help of officially recognized gods and their state
connected ministers."
Christian Right historian Gary North agrees. The ratification of the
Constitution was a "judicial break with Christian America." Article Six
provided a "legal barrier to Christian theocracy" leading "directly to the
rise of religious pluralism," he declares in "Political Polytheism: The
Myth of Pluralism." Indeed, history shows that the framers of the
Constitution sought to establish religious equality among citizens and in
government. But, as Christian nationalists seek to eviscerate the capacity
of federal courts to protect the religious freedom and equality of all
Americans, we can expect that one of their main tactics and goals will
continue to be the revision of history itself.
• Frederick Clarkson is the author of 'Eternal Hostility: The Struggle
Between Theocracy and Democracy.'
**************************************************************
You are invited to check out the following:
The Constitutional Principle: Separation of Church and State
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/index.html
[and the discussion group for the above site listed below]
HRSepCnS · Hampton Roads SepChurch&State
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HRSepCnS/
[Its not just Hampton Roads folks who are members]
For people in Hampton Roads you are also invited to join
NORFOLK/VA. B. SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE MEETUP GROUP
http://churchandstate.meetup.com/47/
Virginia Chapter Americans United for Separation of Church and State
http://au-va.org/
***************************************************************
.. . . You can't understand a phrase such as "Congress shall make no law
respecting an establishment of religion" by syllogistic reasoning. Words
take their meaning from social as well as textual contexts, which is why "a
page of history is worth a volume of logic." New York Trust Co. v. Eisner,
256 U.S. 345, 349, 41 S.Ct. 506, 507, 65 L.Ed. 963 (1921) (Holmes, J.).
Sherman v. Community Consol. Dist. 21, 980 F.2d 437, 445 (7th Cir. 1992)
.. . .
****************************************************************
THE CONSTITUTIONAL PRINCIPLE:
SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE

http://members.tripod.com/~candst/index.html
"Dedicated to combatting 'history by sound bite'."
Now including a re-publication of Tom Peters
SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE HOME PAGE
and
Audio links to Supreme Court oral arguments and
Speech by civil rights/constitutional lawyer and others.
This site is a member of the following web rings:
Freethought Ring--&--Freethought, Religion & Beliefs Ring
The First Amendment Ring--&--The Church-State Ring
American History WebRing--&--The History Ring
Let Freedom Ring--&--Religious Freedom Ring
Law Issues Ring--&--Legal Research Ring
****************************************************************

.

User: "fred"

Title: Re: On Ten Commandment , Christian Right has it wrong 26 Jul 2005 03:51:01 PM
wrote:

The Christian Science Monitor
Commentary > Opinion
from the April 21, 2004 edition

On Ten Commandments bill, Christian Right has it wrong
By Frederick Clarkson
http://www.csmonitor.com/2004/0421/p09s01-coop.html
[excerpt]

Although Moore's movement has gained some political traction, its core
premise has a fundamental flaw: It aims to "restore" a Christian
constitution that never existed. And this presents challenges for Moore a=

nd

his allies as they attempt to invoke the framers of the Constitution in
support of their contemporary notions of a Biblically based society.

I agree that the Constitution does not single out Christianity.


Last August, for example, James Dobson, head of Focus on the Family,
rallied with Moore in front of the Alabama state courthouse.

"I checked yesterday with my research team," Dr. Dobson announced. "There
are only two references to religion in the Constitution." The first, from
the preamble, he said, refers to securing "the blessings of liberty,"
which, he asserted, "came from God" (although there is nothing in the
document to support that view.) The other was the First Amendment's
establishment clause that, he said, "has given such occasion for mischief
by the Supreme Court."

However, Dobson's researchers missed - or ignored - Article Six of the
Constitution. That's the one barring religious tests for public office and
set in motion disestablishment of the Christian churches that had served =

as

arbiters of colonial citizenship and government for 150 years.

Mainstream historian Gary Wills writes that the framers' major innovation
was "disestablishment."

"No other government in the history of the world," he writes, "had launch=

ed

itself without the help of officially recognized gods and their state
connected ministers."

References such as "government" as it is used in the above context
assume that the federal and state governments were meant to be regarded
as a monolithic entity that is to have no tolerance for religious
discussion. The problem is that nobody is understanding that the
Founding Fathers recognized the federal and state governments as two
separate entities where certain powers were exclusively delegated or
prohibited to one or the other. Here is an extract from Thomas
Jefferson's writings which reflects this:
"Our citizens have wisely formed themselves into one nation as to
others and several States as among themselves. To the united nation
belong our external and mutual relations; to each State, severally, the
care of our persons, our property, our reputation and religious
freedom." --Thomas Jefferson: To Rhode Island Assembly, 1801. ME 10:262
The fact that the Founding Fathers recognized the federal and state
governments as distinct entities having distinct powers is also
evidenced by the 1st and 10th Amendments which show that the states can
have powers prohibited to the federal government. This essay explains
how the power to address religion was delegated to the states but not
to the federal government:
http://www.renewamerica.us/readings/keyes_essay.htm


Christian Right historian Gary North agrees. The ratification of the
Constitution was a "judicial break with Christian America." Article Six
provided a "legal barrier to Christian theocracy" leading "directly to the
rise of religious pluralism," he declares in "Political Polytheism: The
Myth of Pluralism." Indeed, history shows that the framers of the
Constitution sought to establish religious equality among citizens and in
government. But, as Christian nationalists seek to eviscerate the capacity
of federal courts to protect the religious freedom and equality of all
Americans, we can expect that one of their main tactics and goals will
continue to be the revision of history itself.

=B7 Frederick Clarkson is the author of 'Eternal Hostility: The Struggle
Between Theocracy and Democracy.'


**************************************************************
You are invited to check out the following:

The Constitutional Principle: Separation of Church and State
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/index.html

[and the discussion group for the above site listed below]

HRSepCnS =B7 Hampton Roads SepChurch&State
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HRSepCnS/

[Its not just Hampton Roads folks who are members]

For people in Hampton Roads you are also invited to join

NORFOLK/VA. B. SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE MEETUP GROUP
http://churchandstate.meetup.com/47/

Virginia Chapter Americans United for Separation of Church and State
http://au-va.org/

***************************************************************

. . . You can't understand a phrase such as "Congress shall make no law
respecting an establishment of religion" by syllogistic reasoning. Words
take their meaning from social as well as textual contexts, which is why =

"a

page of history is worth a volume of logic." New York Trust Co. v. Eisne=

r,

256 U.S. 345, 349, 41 S.Ct. 506, 507, 65 L.Ed. 963 (1921) (Holmes, J.).
Sherman v. Community Consol. Dist. 21, 980 F.2d 437, 445 (7th Cir. 1992)
. . .

****************************************************************

THE CONSTITUTIONAL PRINCIPLE:
SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE

http://members.tripod.com/~candst/index.html

"Dedicated to combatting 'history by sound bite'."

Now including a re-publication of Tom Peters
SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE HOME PAGE
and
Audio links to Supreme Court oral arguments and
Speech by civil rights/constitutional lawyer and others.

This site is a member of the following web rings:

Freethought Ring--&--Freethought, Religion & Beliefs Ring

The First Amendment Ring--&--The Church-State Ring

American History WebRing--&--The History Ring

Let Freedom Ring--&--Religious Freedom Ring

Law Issues Ring--&--Legal Research Ring
=20
****************************************************************

.
User: ""

Title: Re: On Ten Commandment , Christian Right has it wrong 28 Jul 2005 09:56:50 AM
"fred" <clarma1@gmail.com> wrote:

:|
:|
:|buckeye-ELO@nospam.net wrote:
:|> The Christian Science Monitor
:|> Commentary > Opinion
:|> from the April 21, 2004 edition
:|>
:|> On Ten Commandments bill, Christian Right has it wrong
:|> By Frederick Clarkson
:|> http://www.csmonitor.com/2004/0421/p09s01-coop.html
:|> [excerpt]
:|>
:|> Although Moore's movement has gained some political traction, its core
:|> premise has a fundamental flaw: It aims to "restore" a Christian
:|> constitution that never existed. And this presents challenges for Moore and
:|> his allies as they attempt to invoke the framers of the Constitution in
:|> support of their contemporary notions of a Biblically based society.
:|
:|I agree that the Constitution does not single out Christianity.
:|
:|>
:|> Last August, for example, James Dobson, head of Focus on the Family,
:|> rallied with Moore in front of the Alabama state courthouse.
:|>
:|> "I checked yesterday with my research team," Dr. Dobson announced. "There
:|> are only two references to religion in the Constitution." The first, from
:|> the preamble, he said, refers to securing "the blessings of liberty,"
:|> which, he asserted, "came from God" (although there is nothing in the
:|> document to support that view.) The other was the First Amendment's
:|> establishment clause that, he said, "has given such occasion for mischief
:|> by the Supreme Court."
:|>
:|> However, Dobson's researchers missed - or ignored - Article Six of the
:|> Constitution. That's the one barring religious tests for public office and
:|> set in motion disestablishment of the Christian churches that had served as
:|> arbiters of colonial citizenship and government for 150 years.
:|>
:|> Mainstream historian Gary Wills writes that the framers' major innovation
:|> was "disestablishment."
:|>
:|> "No other government in the history of the world," he writes, "had launched
:|> itself without the help of officially recognized gods and their state
:|> connected ministers."
:|
:|References such as "government" as it is used in the above context
:|assume that the federal and state governments were meant to be regarded
:|as a monolithic entity that is to have no tolerance for religious
:|discussion. The problem is that nobody is understanding that the
:|Founding Fathers recognized the federal and state governments as two
:|separate entities where certain powers were exclusively delegated or
:|prohibited to one or the other. Here is an extract from Thomas
:|Jefferson's writings which reflects this:

Let's try this again since you seemed to miss the point the first time
The Christian Science Monitor
Commentary > Opinion
from the April 21, 2004 edition
On Ten Commandments bill, Christian Right has it wrong
By Frederick Clarkson
http://www.csmonitor.com/2004/0421/p09s01-coop.html
[excerpt]
Although Moore's movement has gained some political traction, its core
premise has a fundamental flaw: It aims to "restore" a Christian
constitution that never existed. And this presents challenges for Moore and
his allies as they attempt to invoke the framers of the Constitution in
support of their contemporary notions of a Biblically based society.
Last August, for example, James Dobson, head of Focus on the Family,
rallied with Moore in front of the Alabama state courthouse.
"I checked yesterday with my research team," Dr. Dobson announced. "There
are only two references to religion in the Constitution." The first, from
the preamble, he said, refers to securing "the blessings of liberty,"
which, he asserted, "came from God" (although there is nothing in the
document to support that view.) The other was the First Amendment's
establishment clause that, he said, "has given such occasion for mischief
by the Supreme Court."
However, Dobson's researchers missed - or ignored - Article Six of the
Constitution. That's the one barring religious tests for public office and
set in motion disestablishment of the Christian churches that had served as
arbiters of colonial citizenship and government for 150 years.
Mainstream historian Gary Wills writes that the framers' major innovation
was "disestablishment."
"No other government in the history of the world," he writes, "had launched
itself without the help of officially recognized gods and their state
connected ministers."
Christian Right historian Gary North agrees. The ratification of the
Constitution was a "judicial break with Christian America." Article Six
provided a "legal barrier to Christian theocracy" leading "directly to the
rise of religious pluralism," he declares in "Political Polytheism: The
Myth of Pluralism." Indeed, history shows that the framers of the
Constitution sought to establish religious equality among citizens and in
government. But, as Christian nationalists seek to eviscerate the capacity
of federal courts to protect the religious freedom and equality of all
Americans, we can expect that one of their main tactics and goals will
continue to be the revision of history itself.
• Frederick Clarkson is the author of 'Eternal Hostility: The Struggle
Between Theocracy and Democracy.'
*************************************************************************************8

Now let's add some additional details
This is just a beginning:
Study Guide: Separation of Church and State - Indepth
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/studygd0.htm

The Establishment Clause
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/estclause.htm

* Fourteenth Amendment
http://candst.tripod.com/14thamend.htm
The Rise of the Theocratic States of America
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/theocracy.htm
**************************************************************
You are invited to check out the following:
The Constitutional Principle: Separation of Church and State
http://members.tripod.com/~candst/index.html
[and the discussion group for the above site listed below]
HRSepCnS · Hampton Roads SepChurch&State
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/HRSepCnS/
[Its not just Hampton Roads folks who are members]
For people in Hampton Roads you are also invited to join
NORFOLK/VA. B. SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE MEETUP GROUP
http://churchandstate.meetup.com/47/
Virginia Chapter Americans United for Separation of Church and State
http://au-va.org/
***************************************************************
.. . . You can't understand a phrase such as "Congress shall make no law
respecting an establishment of religion" by syllogistic reasoning. Words
take their meaning from social as well as textual contexts, which is why "a
page of history is worth a volume of logic." New York Trust Co. v. Eisner,
256 U.S. 345, 349, 41 S.Ct. 506, 507, 65 L.Ed. 963 (1921) (Holmes, J.).
Sherman v. Community Consol. Dist. 21, 980 F.2d 437, 445 (7th Cir. 1992)
.. . .
****************************************************************
THE CONSTITUTIONAL PRINCIPLE:
SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE

http://members.tripod.com/~candst/index.html
"Dedicated to combatting 'history by sound bite'."
Now including a re-publication of Tom Peters
SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE HOME PAGE
and
Audio links to Supreme Court oral arguments and
Speech by civil rights/constitutional lawyer and others.
This site is a member of the following web rings:
Freethought Ring--&--Freethought, Religion & Beliefs Ring
The First Amendment Ring--&--The Church-State Ring
American History WebRing--&--The History Ring
Let Freedom Ring--&--Religious Freedom Ring
Law Issues Ring--&--Legal Research Ring
****************************************************************
.

User: "Gray Shockley"

Title: Re: On Ten Commandment, Christian Right has it wrong 27 Jul 2005 02:59:16 AM
On Tue, 26 Jul 2005 15:51, anonymous poster wrote:

References such as "government" as it is used in the above context
assume that the federal and state governments were meant to be regarded
as a monolithic entity that is to have no tolerance for religious
discussion. The problem is that nobody is understanding that the
Founding Fathers recognized the federal and state governments as two
separate entities where certain powers were exclusively delegated or
prohibited to one or the other. Here is an extract from Thomas
Jefferson's writings . . . . . .

Thomas Tefferson was not around for the later additions to the
Constitution.
I remind you of his thoughts on the "sleeping god".
Gray Shockley
---------------------------------------
If someone knows the answer before
knowing the question, this has nothing
to do with rationality and everything
to do with religion.
.



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