One More GI Killed by Bush's Big Lie

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Topic:	Religions > Atheism
User:	"Yang"
Date:	08 Aug 2003 09:48:38 PM
Object:	One More GI Killed by Bush's Big Lie

"...The people can always be brought to the bidding of the
leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being
attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism, and
exposing the country to greater danger."
-- Herman Goering at the Nuremberg trials
"Another GI Killed By Bush's Big Lie"
http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/08/08/sprj.irq.main/index.html
-----
Yang
a.a. #28
a.a. pastor #-273.15, the most frigid church of Celcius nee Kelvin
EAC Econometric Forecast and Socerey Division
Proudly plonked by Lani Girl and Crazyalec
The Bush 'balance' budget: -455 billion and worsening
The Bush 'economic' policy: -2.5 million jobs and counting
The Bush Iraq lie: -254 GIs, one friend's co-worker's son and mounting
Having Bush ***** up my country: Worthless
.

User: ""
Title: Re: One More GI Killed by Bush's Big Lie	16 Aug 2003 03:00:46 PM

On Fri, 15 Aug 2003 01:58:54 GMT,

(Yang) wrote:

On Thu, 14 Aug 2003 17:42:25 GMT,

wrote:

On Thu, 14 Aug 2003 08:25:30 GMT,

(Yang) wrote:

<snip>

Let me try this again :)
During the Clinton administration it didn't matter what critics said
about him the reply was always "Yeah but look at the economy."
It didn't take my asking too many times what Clinton specifically did
to help the economy and getting blank stares or silence to realize
that nobody I asked had an answer and that the response was a simple
minded group chant more than anything else.

The biggest thing he did was that he did not screw up the economy.

Curious thing to me is that I would have thought his huge tax increase
would have discouraged spending at certain levels and would eventually
slow the economy.

But it didn't.

Problem is I've read that the tax increase helped to create a surplus
but I've also tread that the surplus didn't actually exist.
How does one know which side is telling the truth?
The government lies all the time.
The chief tool of the partisan political activist is also the lie.
When politicians say they have made budget cuts they actually mean
they didn't spend as much money as they wanted to by reducing requests
in the upcoming budget.
A Tennesse state senator recently won reelection by telling the voters
he saved them from a state income tax while not admitting that he
voted for a sales tax increase which my well cost businessess and
citizens more in the long run.
Can't believe a thing the bastards say.

You might find this interesting:
http://www.statesman.com/business/content/auto/epaper/editions/thursday/business_f3b3233ec155e07c00f9.html
I do believe that if most people have money they will spend it and
shouldn't that fuel the economy?

No, because your expenditure of money depends on your expectation of
the future. If it look like they might lay you off, you save that
money, no matter how good that 0% financing looks.

That is of course the way it should be but it's seldom totally
accurate.
People will spend on credit hoping for better times before it catches
up with them, people will write bad checks hoping to beat them to the
bank, that $120.00 dvd player is too good a deal to pass up and on and
on.
Many people spend on credit to send their children to college, to buy
groceries and are sometimes forced to take out loans to pay their
property taxes or house notes.
The gambling casinoes in Tunica Mississippi recently agreed to stop
cashing welfare checks and as a result several local stores and a few
business set up for the purpose now do it.
The point is, many people are going to spend money they do not have to
spare just to try to survive or entertain themselves.
There are a number of business in my community that refuse to take
checks from anyone anymore because it costs them too much in returned
check charges.
My question here is that if spending by the public is one indicator of
a healthy economy isn't it a bit of a shaky proposition given the fact
that much of the money is in fact credit or often bad checks and is
that accounted for somehow in the guessing game?
<Somebody has to pay the piper eventually>
I also read of another game that apparently Clinton played in which
his people counted military members as employed people and threw that
into the mix of public sector employees to claim that the jobless rate
was less than it actually was.
And isn't it most often true that deep cuts in military spending to
decrease budgets often creates problems that have to be addressed by
later administrations who are forced to spend more to correct the
damage?
<Carter is a good example and I think Clinton is as well>

As for the news above, jobless claim, which is more of an leading
indicator as opposed to consumer expenditure above since the BLS
jobless claims are more recent, shows that the economy is still losing
jobs:
http://abcnews.go.com/wire/Business/ap20030814_1035.html

But there again, is there a method to determine the difference between
people who are laid off and those who quit in order to receive
benefits without working?
Or does that matter?
<I don't mind showing my ignorance here if I can learn something from
it>
I do know that around here business are practically begging for
employees but can't get enough people to work or stay for any length
of time.
Of course these are mostly low paying throw away jobs with extremely
limited benefits and no real stable financial futures.
And how do those type jobs affect the overall economy?

Furthermore consumer confidence, which is another leading indicator,
dipped by 7%.

http://www.conference-board.org/economics/press.cfm?press_ID=2202

How do they break down those 5000 households?
Upper, middle and lower class?
Regions of the country?
(See why I need the books? :)

Note that the survey was undertaken towards end of July whereas
consumer expenditure was measured for the entire month of July, this
suggests that any tax-cut euphoria has been cut short mat market
anxiety.

But wouldn't the "euphoria" only be temporary anyway?
And isn't it possible that it will return after another tax cut?
Don't most just see it as a windfall and spend the hell out of it the
first chance they get?
And wouldn't the confidence necessarily slip a bit once it's gone?
And suppose the government decided to allow consumers to once again
make deductions on their credit card interest.
Wouldn't that likely increase confidence and lead to more spending?
How about meaningful tax breaks on home improvement which requires
workers in various trades to do the job?
Any chance that might cause a decline in the unemployment rate in
certain professions?
Or do I have too simple a view of things?

And another important thing to note is that an estimated 1.4% of the
Q2 annualized growth is attributed to expenditure on thw War on Iraq.
which means that without war, the US economy grew at an awful 1%, give
or take. The war on Iraq cannot be financed indefinitely.

Gotta get some books.
I don't have a clue as to to what Q2 is :)

Large budget deficits in the long run pushes up interest rate, drags
down the economy, distorts market signals, and make it difficult for
people to make a living.

But aren't the deficits usually a result of overspending by the
government?

Overspending is defined as not enough revenue to cover expenditure.

Spending I mean that isn't supported by taxes?
And isn't there a tremendous amount of waste in pork that if
eliminated would help?

But that is not what Bush did. He eliminated nothing and cut taxes.

And there was no gain in increased spending?

Not only did he not reduce any theoretical waste because he did not
make any serious spending cuts, he's making them worse by deficit
spending these wastes.That is pure mismanagement.

I agree but that's the way of the politician.
We are always and always will be behind because of it.

The question again is, which specific policies did Clinton impliment
that created a good economy?
As for the Bush deficit what spending programs did he impliment that
caused it and why did he impliment them?

The deficit come mostly from his tax cuts. You reduce your revenue,
with no corresponding reduction in spending, you increase you deficit.
It's as easy as that.

Other than the war, what is he spending money on?
And is it solely his fault or does part of the blame go to congress
who holds the purse strings?

But trying to get a politician to cut spending is about as likely as
getting one to tell the truth about anything.
But then that's the way the system works isn't it?
We vote for the guy who promises the most in bread and circuses.

And you got a politician that is worse than Clinton when it comes to
fiscal management.

Unless Clinton's lies and mismangement lead to the current problems or
at least helped to create them.

Milton Friedman, which should be palatable to everyone since he is
considered a conservative.

Interesting, conservative economics as opposed to liberal?

Actually, economists are fairly consistent with respect to fiscal
policies. Don't run up the debt by a ridiculous amount and keep your
financial house in order. Something Bush obviously has not done by any
stretch of the imagination.

One thing I find interesting that Bush was being blamed for an economy
that took a nose dive almost before he was even sworn in.
There is something wrong with that view imo.

Except that is not true. First of all the recession began after he
took office[1]. Secondly, if you consider that the economy a few month
before Bush counts as a 'nose dive', then we have been in a 'nose
dive' for the past 3 years, if you use GDP growth as a criterium. At
some point Bush has to bear some responsibility for the economy.

I agree to a point.

[1]www.nber.org

<snip>

Btw, have you read Wealth of Nations?
I've got the thing and started it but I keep getting off on other
stuff and haven't finished it yet.

Page two, At some point I have to finifsh it so I can hang out at
snooty economist cocktail parties.

Lol!
I understand.
Certain people also like to quote from Democracy In America but I
suspect that most who do have never actually read the whole thing.
I haven't finished it either though both are very interesting reading.
Too many books and too little time.
For some reason I recently became obsessed with Russian history and
put aside other things I was reading.
Total lack of disipline on my part :)

Page two of the Tocquiville book as well. My exposure of Russian
history does not go beyond the Byzantium phase. I'm more particular to
ancient/medieval histories.

I'm currently reading an book on the Black Death in Europe and of
course it contains some interesting insights on how it affected the
economy.

I've read how some of Nash's theory were used in Fcc's multiple round
spectrum auctions in 1994.
An interesting concept that apparently worked very well.

The application or game theory in auction comes from William Vickery,
the late Nobel Laureate from Columibia, whom legend has it, had an
argument with Newt Gingrich and went home and dies. Newt does that to
people.

Lol!
I can understand why :)

By 1995 Washington had received more than ten billion dollars from the
auctions.
I've been rummaging about in my closets to see if maybe I have an old
spectrum or two lying around somewhere that I can sell on Ebay :-)

And if Europe was any indication, Washington DC probably took these
guys for a ride. Some preliminary results from Europe suggest that the
corporations that bid for these spectrums overestimated the value of
these things.

I had understood that the method used was to force them to consider
the real value in the purchase and to prevent them from buying simply
for resale.
I need to read more about it.
Thanks for the info.
atheist@home#1554

-----

Yang
a.a. #28
a.a. pastor #-273.15, the most frigid church of Celcius nee Kelvin
EAC Econometric Forecast and Socerey Division
Proudly plonked by Lani Girl and Crazyalec

The Bush 'balance' budget: -455 billion and worsening
The Bush 'economic' policy: -3 million jobs and counting
The Bush Iraq lie: -268 GIs, one friend's co-worker's son and mounting

Having Bush ***** up my country: Worthless

User: ""
Title: Re: One More GI Killed by Bush's Big Lie	08 Aug 2003 09:56:52 PM

On Sat, 09 Aug 2003 02:48:38 GMT,

(Yang) wrote:

Cheap shot Yang.
And fairly comical in it's implications.
Wanna talk about it?
atheist@home#1554

"Another GI Killed By Bush's Big Lie"
http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/08/08/sprj.irq.main/index.html

-----

Yang
a.a. #28
a.a. pastor #-273.15, the most frigid church of Celcius nee Kelvin
EAC Econometric Forecast and Socerey Division
Proudly plonked by Lani Girl and Crazyalec

The Bush 'balance' budget: -455 billion and worsening
The Bush 'economic' policy: -2.5 million jobs and counting
The Bush Iraq lie: -254 GIs, one friend's co-worker's son and mounting

Having Bush ***** up my country: Worthless

User: "JTEM"
Title: Re: One More GI Killed by Bush's Big Lie	08 Aug 2003 11:37:33 PM

<atheist@home.com> wrote

eacmole@SPAMmail.com (Yang) wrote:

Cheap shot Yang.

YM: "Very accurate."
.

User: "quibbler"
Title: Re: One More GI Killed by Bush's Big Lie	08 Aug 2003 10:20:53 PM

In article <slo8jv846nicuua655500a3rjq7s32jge3@4ax.com>,

says...

On Sat, 09 Aug 2003 02:48:38 GMT,

(Yang) wrote:

Cheap shot Yang.

No, I think the Iraqis are taking the cheap shots, with their AK-47s and
RPGs, that is.

And fairly comical in it's implications.

I think the situation we're witnessing in Iraq right now is a combination
of high tragedy and low comedy.

Wanna talk about it?

If you have something to say, why not just say it.
--
_____________________________________________________
Quibbler (quibbler247atyahoo.com)
"It is fashionable to wax apocalyptic about the
threat to humanity posed by the AIDS virus, 'mad cow'
disease, and many others, but I think a case can be
made that faith is one of the world's great evils,
comparable to the smallpox virus but harder to
eradicate." -- Richard Dawkins
.

User: ""
Title: Re: One More GI Killed by Bush's Big Lie	10 Aug 2003 12:38:00 PM

On Fri, 8 Aug 2003 21:20:53 -0600, quibbler <quibbler247@yahoo.com>
wrote:

In article <slo8jv846nicuua655500a3rjq7s32jge3@4ax.com>,

says...

On Sat, 09 Aug 2003 02:48:38 GMT,

(Yang) wrote:

Cheap shot Yang.

No, I think the Iraqis are taking the cheap shots, with their AK-47s and
RPGs, that is.

Actually I thought it would be worse.
There are Iraqis helping coalition forces capture former leaders as
well as those shooting at troops.

And fairly comical in it's implications.

I think the situation we're witnessing in Iraq right now is a combination
of high tragedy and low comedy.

I think there are two sides.
Sometimes the negatives get the headlines while the positives are
brushed aside.

Wanna talk about it?

If you have something to say, why not just say it.

I'm actually fishing for points of view and perspectives.
I still believe that if Bush brought about world peace which is a goal
he has stated he is striving for and the thing he hopes will define
his presidency, that the people who hate him now will hate him then.
Clinton decimated the military yet I recently read a claim by a
prominent Democrat that the "war" in Iraq was won because of the
strong military Clinton had built.
Clinton actually made things more difficult in a number of ways but
many democrats simply cannot see it or purposely deny it.
I believe most complaints about Bush are partisan politics and that
many of the people who are so full of hatred for him don't realize it.
I think that hatred for Bush and anything Republican blinds some and
prevents them from seeing the greater picture.
I'm just trying to decide is I am wrong about that.
atheist@home#1554
.

User: "Yang"
Title: Re: One More GI Killed by Bush's Big Lie	08 Aug 2003 10:31:17 PM

On Sat, 09 Aug 2003 02:56:52 GMT,

wrote:

On Sat, 09 Aug 2003 02:48:38 GMT,

(Yang) wrote:

Cheap shot Yang.
And fairly comical in it's implications.
Wanna talk about it?

Yes,
Remember how a good portion of the conservatives charged that those
who questioned Bush's claim about the WMD's were 'aiding Saddam' or
unpatriotic? Well, I'm sorry I didn't resist more. I'm sorry I gave
Bush even one bit of the benefit of the doubt, thinking that he had
some secret concrete evidence to back his claims, even as all the
expert agencies shot down his public "proofs".
I want answers, about the aluminum tubes that couldn't, the yellowcake
that wasn't, the hyped "UAVs" no more sophsiticated than RC plane, the
supposed mobile vans that didn't, the WMD's hidden in all the palm
trees in Baghad that remains to be unhidden, and the Bush-Rumsfeld
claim of Al Qaida-Iraq link debinked by the CIA.
When these litany of exaggerations/lies lead us to war, that in my
opinion, is treason.
Close to a third of our active armed forces are tied down in Iraq as
Iran and North Korea are developing nukes. 4 to 6 billion dollars are
spent on Iraq monthly even as we face the worst employment situation
in 9 years here. Committing our resources to a phantom menace is
putting our country in greater danger, in my opinon.
-----
Yang
a.a. #28
a.a. pastor #-273.15, the most frigid church of Celcius nee Kelvin
EAC Econometric Forecast and Socerey Division
Proudly plonked by Lani Girl and Crazyalec
The Bush 'balance' budget: -455 billion and worsening
The Bush 'economic' policy: -2.5 million jobs and counting
The Bush Iraq lie: -254 GIs, one friend's co-worker's son and mounting
Having Bush ***** up my country: Worthless
.

User: ""
Title: Re: One More GI Killed by Bush's Big Lie	10 Aug 2003 12:19:40 PM

On Sat, 09 Aug 2003 03:31:17 GMT,

(Yang) wrote:

On Sat, 09 Aug 2003 02:56:52 GMT,

wrote:

On Sat, 09 Aug 2003 02:48:38 GMT,

(Yang) wrote:

Cheap shot Yang.
And fairly comical in it's implications.
Wanna talk about it?

Yes,

Remember how a good portion of the conservatives charged that those
who questioned Bush's claim about the WMD's were 'aiding Saddam' or
unpatriotic?

No, I don't remember that.
I was under the impression that the claim was directed toward anti-war
protestors.

Well, I'm sorry I didn't resist more. I'm sorry I gave
Bush even one bit of the benefit of the doubt, thinking that he had
some secret concrete evidence to back his claims, even as all the
expert agencies shot down his public "proofs".

I am confused by the fact that Blair has insisted there is proof but
no one has supplied it.

I want answers, about the aluminum tubes that couldn't, the yellowcake
that wasn't, the hyped "UAVs" no more sophsiticated than RC plane, the
supposed mobile vans that didn't, the WMD's hidden in all the palm
trees in Baghad that remains to be unhidden, and the Bush-Rumsfeld
claim of Al Qaida-Iraq link debinked by the CIA.

You are a citizen with not only the right but the responsibility to
demand proof.

When these litany of exaggerations/lies lead us to war, that in my
opinion, is treason.

Close to a third of our active armed forces are tied down in Iraq as
Iran and North Korea are developing nukes. 4 to 6 billion dollars are
spent on Iraq monthly even as we face the worst employment situation
in 9 years here. Committing our resources to a phantom menace is
putting our country in greater danger, in my opinon.

On the other hand, proving that we will use massive resources to track
down and kill terrorists or overthrow regimes that support terrorism
may cause certain people to rethink their policies.
They have in the past depended on the "measured response" to their
attacks but have been shown that the rules have changed.
If you had it in your power what would you do about Iran and North
Korea?
Do you think that maybe what we have done to Iraq may have emboldened
those in Iran who are protesting the current regime?
atheist@home#1554

-----

Yang
a.a. #28
a.a. pastor #-273.15, the most frigid church of Celcius nee Kelvin
EAC Econometric Forecast and Socerey Division
Proudly plonked by Lani Girl and Crazyalec

The Bush 'balance' budget: -455 billion and worsening
The Bush 'economic' policy: -2.5 million jobs and counting
The Bush Iraq lie: -254 GIs, one friend's co-worker's son and mounting

Having Bush ***** up my country: Worthless

User: "Baghdad Bob"
Title: Re: One More GI Killed by Bush's Big Lie	10 Aug 2003 03:19:19 PM

"Yang" <eacmole@SPAMmail.com> wrote in message
news:3f368dfb.1053375@news.cox.net...

On Sun, 10 Aug 2003 17:19:40 GMT,

wrote:

Remember how a good portion of the conservatives charged that those
who questioned Bush's claim about the WMD's were 'aiding Saddam' or
unpatriotic?

No, I don't remember that.
I was under the impression that the claim was directed toward anti-war
protestors.

Do you think protesting against wars count as 'unpatriotic'?

Lying about both the reasons for war and lying about all the good that was
accomplished by it sure as ***** is unpatriotic. Gloating over the
casualties on a daily basis in a pathetic attempt to trump up political
dissatisfaction is as unfucking patriotic as any mother-fucker who ever
burned a flag.

I am confused by the fact that Blair has insisted there is proof but
no one has supplied it.

All it takes to shut me up is to have one of them come up with a
conclusive proof that we did this in the interest of national
security. Not "WMD doesn't matter now" or any of thet post hoc
apologetics.

You've seen it, and you've denied it. You don't want truth, you want to
whine a ***** and tell us all how the president is so terrible. Just drop
the fucking pretence of having any admirable motives. It only compounds
your guilt.

You are a citizen with not only the right but the responsibility to
demand proof.

And I've decided to raise hell right now. I will be the first to admit
I am being an ***** about this. But if this is what we collectively
need to do to stop the stonewalling, then I have no hesitations about
it.

Oh yeah. Being a ***** has certainly paid off. Just look at all the people
flocking to the cause of your beloved party.

On the other hand, proving that we will use massive resources to track
down and kill terrorists or overthrow regimes that support terrorism
may cause certain people to rethink their policies.

That is the biggest reason for preemption. Very few people are
protesting against US in Afghanistan, even as we use our resources to
overrun that country. But using it as an exuse to invade Iraq is an
abuse of the power vested in the war against terror.

It is part and parcel of the same war. ***** the living ***** can you deny
that Saddam has not supported international terrorists for years. I'm not
talking just about Al Qaeda, which you deny in the face of all evidence.
I'm talking about all the others he's sponsored. You want to draw this
magic distinction between Al Qaeda and all the other murderous fucks out
there. Well here's a news flash: THEY"RE ALL THE SAME GOD-SOAKED
MOTHER_FUCKERS!

They have in the past depended on the "measured response" to their
attacks but have been shown that the rules have changed.
If you had it in your power what would you do about Iran and North
Korea?

That the case for invading those countries, were that to happen, pass
the muster with with other countries that have just as much to lose.
If the invasion on Iraq really had anything to do with Al Qaeda both
the Russians and the French would have been on it- There have been AQ
plots targeting French interests amd the Russians, with their bloody
and awful policies in Chechnya, knwo that some of the opponents come
in the form of AQ. I short, I would care about my international
credibility a lot more.

Wake up, *****. Al Qaeda is not our only enemy. From Abu Nidal to
Hezbollah there is an unbroken succession of organizations who share the
same aims and tactics. Al Qaeda stands out only because they've caused the
most damage and loss of innocent life.

Do you think that maybe what we have done to Iraq may have emboldened
those in Iran who are protesting the current regime?

That is precisely what I think has happened. From all indications Iran
accelearted their nuclear production as the war against Iraq was
winding down. Simple logic if you think about. Saddam was deposed not
because he had nukes, but because he didn't.

No *****. He was working on them, but we all know that he had a long way to
go after the 1st Gulf War. If you recall, he as much further along then
than anyone thought. The central issue was Saddam's support for terrorists,
along with his possession of chem/bio weapons and the means to produce more.
We fought that war to prevent terrorists, be they Al Qaeda, Hezbollah or
Hamas from getting their hands on them from Saddam. Wake up you ignorant
fucking moron.
.

User: "Yang"
Title: Re: One More GI Killed by Bush's Big Lie	08 Aug 2003 10:38:04 PM

On Sat, 09 Aug 2003 03:17:55 GMT, "David Haapala"
<dhaapala@houston.removethis.rr.com> wrote:

Hey, Yang.
As an Atheist, I just have to ask you one question.
Every month in America there are more people killed in black
neighborhoods than there have been Americans in Iraq since March: Why aren't
you ***** about that?

So the GI who died on the Normandy is not worth your tribute because
more people die everyday from heart attack than on D-Day?
The people killed by terrorists are not worth your compassion because
far more people die in auto accidents?
The murder of young children at the hands of molesters should not
elicit our collective anger because kids die for all sorts of reasons?
If you can answer the questions above you can answer your question to
me.
-----
Yang
a.a. #28
a.a. pastor #-273.15, the most frigid church of Celcius nee Kelvin
EAC Econometric Forecast and Socerey Division
Proudly plonked by Lani Girl and Crazyalec
The Bush 'balance' budget: -455 billion and worsening
The Bush 'economic' policy: -2.5 million jobs and counting
The Bush Iraq lie: -254 GIs, one friend's co-worker's son and mounting
Having Bush ***** up my country: Worthless
.

User: "JTEM"
Title: Re: One More GI Killed by Bush's Big Lie	08 Aug 2003 11:49:18 PM

"David Haapala" <dhaapala@houston.removethis.rr.com> wrote

As a veteran, I cry for every soldier that dies for our country.

You misspelled "Halliburton."
And, oh; I doubt you're really a veteran. A veteran would have
every reason to be pissed at what's happening to our troops.
Or did you miss the NYT today? Apparently government contractor
after government contractor is sick of all the sweet deals being
handed to ***** Cheney's pals over at Halliburton. The bodies
weren't even cold before Halliburton got their first zero-bidding
contract.

I just think that your incessant Bush-Bashing cheapens the role
our soldiers are playing out in Iraq.

I've never thought of cannon-fodder as a "Role."
.

User: "pkgojak"
Title: Re: One More GI Killed by Bush's Big Lie	08 Aug 2003 11:14:36 PM

"David Haapala" <dhaapala@houston.removethis.rr.com> wrote in message
news:kn_Ya.159201$hV.10443538@twister.austin.rr.com...

just

think that your incessant Bush-Bashing cheapens the role our soldiers are
playing out in Iraq.

the role they are playing out has little merit. sorry it's a cheap one to
begin with.

WMD or no WMD, their mission is just.

It is not. It just isn't. Get it? It's a LIE. A Bright Shining Lie.
They are young, proud American

soldiers performing their duty just as any man who served would.

You got that right. but you forgot to mention that the are dying too.
Vietnam was

a much less just war than Iraq, and it had it's origins in the great
democratic era. Are you old enough to remember that time?

Yes, they are one and the same.

There were many people speaking just as you do, and that is our right

Americans; BUT, the Vietnamese weren't part of some base religious

movement

that struck down the World Trade Center. The RELIGIOUS movement of islam,
including Iraq and it's propensity for anti-Americanism, are our enemies.
Get it? Not our President.
The fact remains that Iraq, under Saddam, was a threat to us

Wasn't. Isn't. That you believe that is just being foolish. Can you read?
.. A lie to

help negate that threat is less of a crime than ignoring it.

You are neither witty nor prolific nor correct. There was no threat and
the only crime is what is being perpetrated with the blood of your brothers
Mr. Veteran.

|
| The people killed by terrorists are not worth your compassion because
| far more people die in auto accidents?
|
I say to you that I offered my comparison only to show how stupid
radicalism is on any front. You bit: Hook, line, and sinker.

| The murder of young children at the hands of molesters should not
| elicit our collective anger because kids die for all sorts of reasons?
|
Please see my response to your prior qustion.
I STRONGLY feel that children all over the world need to be protected

adults. Please offer to me how Saddam's son helped to protect the children
of Iraq?

|
| If you can answer the questions above you can answer your question to
| me.
|
I feel I have answered.

| -----
|
| Yang
| a.a. #28
| a.a. pastor #-273.15, the most frigid church of Celcius nee Kelvin
| EAC Econometric Forecast and Socerey Division
| Proudly plonked by Lani Girl and Crazyalec
|
| The Bush 'balance' budget: -455 billion and worsening
| The Bush 'economic' policy: -2.5 million jobs and counting
| The Bush Iraq lie: -254 GIs, one friend's co-worker's son and mounting
|
| Having Bush ***** up my country: Worthless

User: "David Haapala"
Title: Re: One More GI Killed by Bush's Big Lie	08 Aug 2003 11:21:28 PM

User: "Hugh G. Rection"
Title: Re: One More GI Killed by Bush's Big Lie	08 Aug 2003 11:22:35 PM

"David Haapala" <dhaapala@houston.removethis.rr.com> wrote in message
news:kn_Ya.159201$hV.10443538@twister.austin.rr.com...

just

think that your incessant Bush-Bashing cheapens the role our soldiers are
playing out in Iraq.
WMD or no WMD, their mission is just. They are young, proud American
soldiers performing their duty just as any man who served would. Vietnam

was

a much less just war than Iraq, and it had it's origins in the great
democratic era. Are you old enough to remember that time?
There were many people speaking just as you do, and that is our right

Americans; BUT, the Vietnamese weren't part of some base religious

movement

Perosonally I felt more threatened by Osama Bin Laden, but aparently that
war got too close to the Saudis for this administrations comfort so they
backed off and are hiding as much information as they can. I'm surprised
that this doesn't upset more people and force the general population to turn
a more critical eye to this administration partisan feelings aside. Plus,
Saddam was a secularist, which is fairly common knowledge.

User: "JTEM"
Title: Re: One More GI Killed by Bush's Big Lie	09 Aug 2003 12:28:21 AM

"Patriotboy" <tim@somecallme.net> wrote

"David Haapala" <dhaapala@houston.removethis.rr.com> posted:

As a veteran, I cry for every soldier that dies for our country.

Even if they are black?

Would you believe, "...almost every..."?
.

User: "David Haapala"
Title: Re: One More GI Killed by Bush's Big Lie	09 Aug 2003 12:07:14 AM

User: "David Haapala"
Title: Re: One More GI Killed by Bush's Big Lie	09 Aug 2003 12:18:48 AM

User: "Yang"
Title: Re: One More GI Killed by Bush's Big Lie	09 Aug 2003 12:21:04 AM

On Sat, 09 Aug 2003 05:18:48 GMT, "David Haapala"
<dhaapala@houston.removethis.rr.com> wrote:

I see you have dodged my question. So here it is again. You claim
"children all over the world need to be protected". and yet you are
perfectly willing to see blacks kids in Liberia die even as you rush
to protect Iraqi kids.
Now why is that?
-----
Yang
a.a. #28
a.a. pastor #-273.15, the most frigid church of Celcius nee Kelvin
EAC Econometric Forecast and Socerey Division
Proudly plonked by Lani Girl and Crazyalec
The Bush 'balance' budget: -455 billion and worsening
The Bush 'economic' policy: -2.5 million jobs and counting
The Bush Iraq lie: -254 GIs, one friend's co-worker's son and mounting
Having Bush ***** up my country: Worthless
.

User: ""
Title: Re: One More GI Killed by Bush's Big Lie	10 Aug 2003 12:48:10 PM

On Sat, 09 Aug 2003 05:16:25 GMT,

(Yang) wrote:

On Sat, 09 Aug 2003 05:07:14 GMT, "David Haapala"
<dhaapala@houston.removethis.rr.com> wrote:

| > Please see my response to your prior qustion.
| > I STRONGLY feel that children all over the world need to be protected
by
| >adults. Please offer to me how Saddam's son helped to protect the
children
| >of Iraq?
|
| How about the children of Liberia?
|
Talk about a non sequitur...

And how is that non-sequitur? Are the blacks kids in Liberia more
deserving to die than Iraqi kids? You claim that you care all kids
'all over the world' so why do you accept deaths in Liberia but not in
Iraq?

How did you get there?
I didn't see him post anything to suggest such a thing.
Btw, personally I think we should send troops to Liberia and put a
stop to the tyranny.
An the U.N. should get off their asses and help.
<Then again we would be opening a can of worms there wouldn't we?>
atheist@home#1554

-----

Yang
a.a. #28
a.a. pastor #-273.15, the most frigid church of Celcius nee Kelvin
EAC Econometric Forecast and Socerey Division
Proudly plonked by Lani Girl and Crazyalec

The Bush 'balance' budget: -455 billion and worsening
The Bush 'economic' policy: -2.5 million jobs and counting
The Bush Iraq lie: -254 GIs, one friend's co-worker's son and mounting

Having Bush ***** up my country: Worthless

User: ""
Title: Re: One More GI Killed by Bush's Big Lie	11 Aug 2003 01:40:43 PM

On Sun, 10 Aug 2003 19:01:59 GMT,

(Yang) wrote:

On Sun, 10 Aug 2003 17:48:10 GMT,

wrote:

On Sat, 09 Aug 2003 05:16:25 GMT,

(Yang) wrote:

On Sat, 09 Aug 2003 05:07:14 GMT, "David Haapala"
<dhaapala@houston.removethis.rr.com> wrote:

How did you get there?
I didn't see him post anything to suggest such a thing.

He's trying to use the "think of the poor children" guilt trip on
Iraq, and I am saying it's kind of hypocritical for him to say while
nary a peep of indignation from him about those kids in Liberia.

How about the poor children of Sudan?
The children in North Korea or those who were murdered in Bosnia?
Children in Thailand forced into sexual slavery or children in the
Philippines forced into the same?
There are really too many to mention and the discussion was about
Iraq.
I think it's a cheap shot to convict him of racism for not mentioning
Liberia.
That happens a lot with people on the left.
It's designed to shut down debate on the issue at hand and
unfortunately works far too often.

Btw, personally I think we should send troops to Liberia and put a
stop to the tyranny.

I would love to see all tyranny stopped. but we should also have a
good reckoning on what the US even as the lone Superpower can and
cannot do. This is why multilaterialism to essential. We need all the
help we can get, let's not bankrupt ourselves putting out all the
fires in an arroagnt fashion.

Imo the world's only superpower should have more than a good reckoning
and we should be judged somewhat more closely than many other nations
and not trusted with that power without question.

An the U.N. should get off their asses and help.

There are certain things the UN is far better at than the US, and
certain things less so.

I agree but in this case we beat them hands down.
atheist@home#1554

-----

Yang
a.a. #28
a.a. pastor #-273.15, the most frigid church of Celcius nee Kelvin
EAC Econometric Forecast and Socerey Division
Proudly plonked by Lani Girl and Crazyalec

The Bush 'balance' budget: -455 billion and worsening
The Bush 'economic' policy: -2.5 million jobs and counting
The Bush Iraq lie: -254 GIs, one friend's co-worker's son and mounting

Having Bush ***** up my country: Worthless

User: "Yang"
Title: Re: One More GI Killed by Bush's Big Lie	11 Aug 2003 03:31:06 PM

On Mon, 11 Aug 2003 18:40:43 GMT,

wrote:

On Sun, 10 Aug 2003 19:01:59 GMT,

(Yang) wrote:

On Sun, 10 Aug 2003 17:48:10 GMT,

wrote:

On Sat, 09 Aug 2003 05:16:25 GMT,

(Yang) wrote:

On Sat, 09 Aug 2003 05:07:14 GMT, "David Haapala"
<dhaapala@houston.removethis.rr.com> wrote:

How did you get there?
I didn't see him post anything to suggest such a thing.

He's trying to use the "think of the poor children" guilt trip on
Iraq, and I am saying it's kind of hypocritical for him to say while
nary a peep of indignation from him about those kids in Liberia.

Just like originally he was accusing me that I don't care about Blacks
being murdered in their neighborhood. What goes around comes around.

There are really too many to mention and the discussion was about
Iraq.
I think it's a cheap shot to convict him of racism for not mentioning
Liberia.

And I think its a cheap shot for him for him to charge that I don't
care African Americans being murdered in America becuase I deoote more
attenton on a.a to deaths in Iarq.

That happens a lot with people on the left.

And increasingly, on the right, as you would see if you look at the
beginning of the thread.

Btw, personally I think we should send troops to Liberia and put a
stop to the tyranny.

Imo the world's only superpower should have more than a good reckoning
and we should be judged somewhat more closely than many other nations
and not trusted with that power without question.

I am in complete agreement on this.

An the U.N. should get off their asses and help.

There are certain things the UN is far better at than the US, and
certain things less so.

I agree but in this case we beat them hands down.

I disagree, the UN has a more comprehensive humanitarian assistance
than the US arm force, which are by definition organized to kill, not
to pacify.
-----
Yang
a.a. #28
a.a. pastor #-273.15, the most frigid church of Celcius nee Kelvin
EAC Econometric Forecast and Socerey Division
Proudly plonked by Lani Girl and Crazyalec
The Bush 'balance' budget: -455 billion and worsening
The Bush 'economic' policy: -2.5 million jobs and counting
The Bush Iraq lie: -254 GIs, one friend's co-worker's son and mounting
Having Bush ***** up my country: Worthless
.

User: "Al Klein"
Title: Re: One More GI Killed by Bush's Big Lie	09 Aug 2003 11:29:46 PM

On Sat, 09 Aug 2003 04:02:24 GMT, "David Haapala"
<dhaapala@houston.removethis.rr.com> posted in alt.atheism:

As a veteran, I cry for every soldier that dies for our country. I just
think that your incessant Bush-Bashing cheapens the role our soldiers are
playing out in Iraq.

Why? Bush is a deserter, not a soldier. Bashing a deserter is
pro-military.

The RELIGIOUS movement of islam,
including Iraq and it's propensity for anti-Americanism, are our enemies.
Get it?

No, there's nothing to get. No religion is our enemy, only people are
our enemies. And many Muslims are our friends. (They probably won't
remain our friends with all the Islam-bashing you and your ilk are
doing.)

The fact remains that Iraq, under Saddam, was a threat to us.

Only to the pocketbooks of those in the oil business.

A lie to help negate that threat is less of a crime than ignoring it.

"During the Monica Lewinsky scandal, conservatives told us endlessly
that conservatives believe in moral absolutes, to wit: 'Clinton lied,
lying is wrong, that's all that matters, and only an immoral liberal
relativist would say otherwise.'
So what do they say about the evidence of the Bush administration's
deception on Iraq? 'He didn't do it, but if he did, so what? Saddam
Hussein's out of power, that's good, and compared to such a worthy
goal, any lies he had to tell to accomplish it are not important,
relatively speaking.'
What does this mean? By its very own standards, conservatism has
exposed itself as a fraud."
From Newsday, 8/5/2003, and boy, did he have you pegged.
--
"I believe in Spinoza's God who reveals himself in the harmony of all that exists, but
not in a God who concerns himself with the fate and actions of human beings."
-A. Einstein (1929 -- Einstein Archive 33-272)
(random sig, produced by SigChanger)
rukbat at optonline dot net
.

User: "SemiScholar"
Title: Re: One More GI Killed by Bush's Big Lie	09 Aug 2003 12:45:55 AM

On Sat, 09 Aug 2003 04:02:24 GMT, "David Haapala"
<dhaapala@houston.removethis.rr.com> wrote:

"Yang" <eacmole@SPAMmail.com> wrote in message
news:3f346b18.3345921@news.cox.net...
| On Sat, 09 Aug 2003 03:17:55 GMT, "David Haapala"
| <dhaapala@houston.removethis.rr.com> wrote:
|
| > Hey, Yang.
| > As an Atheist, I just have to ask you one question.
| > Every month in America there are more people killed in black
| >neighborhoods than there have been Americans in Iraq since March: Why
aren't
| >you ***** about that?
|
|
| So the GI who died on the Normandy is not worth your tribute because
| more people die everyday from heart attack than on D-Day?

As a veteran, I cry for every soldier that dies for our country. I just
think that your incessant Bush-Bashing cheapens the role our soldiers are
playing out in Iraq.
WMD or no WMD, their mission is just. They are young, proud American
soldiers performing their duty just as any man who served would. Vietnam was
a much less just war than Iraq, and it had it's origins in the great
democratic era. Are you old enough to remember that time?
There were many people speaking just as you do, and that is our right as
Americans; BUT, the Vietnamese weren't part of some base religious movement
that struck down the World Trade Center. The RELIGIOUS movement of islam,
including Iraq and it's propensity for anti-Americanism, are our enemies.

Wow. It's rare to see such incredible bigotry and ignorance so
clearly displayed. Usually morons like this at least attempt to hide
it. This guy actually comes out and says that all Moslems are the
"enemy". It's not surprising that there are idiots like this in the
US who can't tell Arabs apart, but it's surprising to hear one of them
being so stupid as to admit it.
.

User: "David Haapala"
Title: Re: One More GI Killed by Bush's Big Lie	09 Aug 2003 12:46:35 AM

"SemiScholar" <noemail@spambegone.com> wrote in message
news:ck29jvcpq6sld3q5dcoa8rubjo6qbq3uim@4ax.com...
| On Sat, 09 Aug 2003 04:02:24 GMT, "David Haapala"
| <dhaapala@houston.removethis.rr.com> wrote:
|
| >
| >"Yang" <eacmole@SPAMmail.com> wrote in message
| >news:3f346b18.3345921@news.cox.net...
| >| On Sat, 09 Aug 2003 03:17:55 GMT, "David Haapala"
| >| <dhaapala@houston.removethis.rr.com> wrote:
| >|
| >| > Hey, Yang.
| >| > As an Atheist, I just have to ask you one question.
| >| > Every month in America there are more people killed in black
| >| >neighborhoods than there have been Americans in Iraq since March: Why
| >aren't
| >| >you ***** about that?
| >|
| >|
| >| So the GI who died on the Normandy is not worth your tribute because
| >| more people die everyday from heart attack than on D-Day?
| >
| > As a veteran, I cry for every soldier that dies for our country. I
just
| >think that your incessant Bush-Bashing cheapens the role our soldiers are
| >playing out in Iraq.
| > WMD or no WMD, their mission is just. They are young, proud American
| >soldiers performing their duty just as any man who served would. Vietnam
was
| >a much less just war than Iraq, and it had it's origins in the great
| >democratic era. Are you old enough to remember that time?
| > There were many people speaking just as you do, and that is our right
as
| >Americans; BUT, the Vietnamese weren't part of some base religious
movement
| >that struck down the World Trade Center. The RELIGIOUS movement of islam,
| >including Iraq and it's propensity for anti-Americanism, are our enemies.
|
| Wow. It's rare to see such incredible bigotry and ignorance so
| clearly displayed. Usually morons like this at least attempt to hide
| it. This guy actually comes out and says that all Moslems are the
| "enemy". It's not surprising that there are idiots like this in the
| US who can't tell Arabs apart, but it's surprising to hear one of them
| being so stupid as to admit it.
|
|
One more thing. If you had a clue, you would KNOW that Arabs and Muslims
are not interchangeable.
Who is the racist?
.

User: "David Haapala"
Title: Re: One More GI Killed by Bush's Big Lie	09 Aug 2003 12:44:59 AM

User: "David Haapala"
Title: Re: One More GI Killed by Bush's Big Lie	09 Aug 2003 03:00:12 AM

"SemiScholar" <noemail@spambegone.com> wrote in message
news:2789jv490256oq2678ibg2s1cd11tn139l@4ax.com...
| On Sat, 09 Aug 2003 05:44:59 GMT, "David Haapala"
| <dhaapala@houston.removethis.rr.com> wrote:
|
| >
| >"SemiScholar" <noemail@spambegone.com> wrote in message
| >news:ck29jvcpq6sld3q5dcoa8rubjo6qbq3uim@4ax.com...
| >| On Sat, 09 Aug 2003 04:02:24 GMT, "David Haapala"
| >| <dhaapala@houston.removethis.rr.com> wrote:
| >|
| >| >
| >| >"Yang" <eacmole@SPAMmail.com> wrote in message
| >| >news:3f346b18.3345921@news.cox.net...
| >| >| On Sat, 09 Aug 2003 03:17:55 GMT, "David Haapala"
| >| >| <dhaapala@houston.removethis.rr.com> wrote:
| >| >|
| >| >| > Hey, Yang.
| >| >| > As an Atheist, I just have to ask you one question.
| >| >| > Every month in America there are more people killed in black
| >| >| >neighborhoods than there have been Americans in Iraq since March:
Why
| >| >aren't
| >| >| >you ***** about that?
| >| >|
| >| >|
| >| >| So the GI who died on the Normandy is not worth your tribute because
| >| >| more people die everyday from heart attack than on D-Day?
| >| >
| >| > As a veteran, I cry for every soldier that dies for our country. I
| >just
| >| >think that your incessant Bush-Bashing cheapens the role our soldiers
are
| >| >playing out in Iraq.
| >| > WMD or no WMD, their mission is just. They are young, proud
American
| >| >soldiers performing their duty just as any man who served would.
Vietnam
| >was
| >| >a much less just war than Iraq, and it had it's origins in the great
| >| >democratic era. Are you old enough to remember that time?
| >| > There were many people speaking just as you do, and that is our
right
| >as
| >| >Americans; BUT, the Vietnamese weren't part of some base religious
| >movement
| >| >that struck down the World Trade Center. The RELIGIOUS movement of
islam,
| >| >including Iraq and it's propensity for anti-Americanism, are our
enemies.
| >|
| >| Wow. It's rare to see such incredible bigotry and ignorance so
| >| clearly displayed. Usually morons like this at least attempt to hide
| >| it. This guy actually comes out and says that all Moslems are the
| >| "enemy". It's not surprising that there are idiots like this in the
| >| US who can't tell Arabs apart, but it's surprising to hear one of them
| >| being so stupid as to admit it.
| >|
| >|
| > Religion is the human enemy, *****.
|
| I'm no fan of religion, but you sound indistinguishable from religious
| fanatics, except that your particular religious fanaticism is atheism.
| The vast majority of religious folks are not a problem - and that goes
| for Moslems, Christians, Jews, Hindus, Buddhists and everybody else.
| It's only extremists like you who cause the problems.
|
| You sound like the type of person who goes from being a diehard
| Christian fundamentalist to becoming a fundamentalist atheist to
| becoming a Kabbala zealot to becoming a Hare Krishna then maybe an
| alcoholic and/or junkie. Some people have no sense of proportion and
| can only be an extremist at whatever they are at this moment and
| bounce from wacko over-indulgence to wacko over-indulgence. Cults are
| full of people like you.
|
I used to be a democrat, but after they boo'ed a republican that went to
a democrat's funeral to pay respects, I thought it was as low as one could
go, almost as low as cigar moistener.
Then, I became a republican, but they were all full of that ***** they
believe in and jerked off a lot.
Sooo, I became someone elses mind, and it is up to you to guess...
|
| > Just thought I would boil it down for you.
|
| Only the simple-minded need complex issues boiled down. It appears
| that the simplistic, boiled-down arguments are the only ones you can
| fathom. But real life ain't like that.
|
Sorry, I tend to explain things to people
.

User: "SemiScholar"
Title: Re: One More GI Killed by Bush's Big Lie	09 Aug 2003 09:29:54 PM

On Sat, 09 Aug 2003 08:00:12 GMT, "David Haapala"
<dhaapala@houston.removethis.rr.com> wrote:

Yep - like I thought - you're a seeker. You don't know what you
believe, so you bounce back and forth from one extreme ideology to
another, fervently practicing the religion of the day until the next
one comes along.

|
| > Just thought I would boil it down for you.
|
| Only the simple-minded need complex issues boiled down. It appears
| that the simplistic, boiled-down arguments are the only ones you can
| fathom. But real life ain't like that.
|
Sorry, I tend to explain things to people

But you don't do a good job of it. You end up just revealing how
little you understand.
.

User: "Yang"
Title: Re: One More GI Killed by Bush's Big Lie	09 Aug 2003 12:48:23 AM

On Sat, 09 Aug 2003 05:44:59 GMT, "David Haapala"
<dhaapala@houston.removethis.rr.com> wrote:

| Wow. It's rare to see such incredible bigotry and ignorance so
| clearly displayed. Usually morons like this at least attempt to hide
| it. This guy actually comes out and says that all Moslems are the
| "enemy". It's not surprising that there are idiots like this in the
| US who can't tell Arabs apart, but it's surprising to hear one of them
| being so stupid as to admit it.
|
|
Religion is the human enemy, *****.
Just thought I would boil it down for you.

So explain to me how you're against extremism again?
-----
Yang
a.a. #28
a.a. pastor #-273.15, the most frigid church of Celcius nee Kelvin
EAC Econometric Forecast and Socerey Division
Proudly plonked by Lani Girl and Crazyalec
The Bush 'balance' budget: -455 billion and worsening
The Bush 'economic' policy: -2.5 million jobs and counting
The Bush Iraq lie: -254 GIs, one friend's co-worker's son and mounting
Having Bush ***** up my country: Worthless
.

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One More GI Killed by Bush's Big Lie
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