| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"*nemo*" |
| Date: |
18 Jan 2005 06:48:04 PM |
| Object: |
OT - Question for biochemists |
Regarding Titan... the latest I have heard is that the environment that
Huygens encountered was quite damp with liquid gases. Methane, I
supppose, but more info will be along in a few days.
My question is this: would it be possible for life to develop that uses
liquid methane the way life on Earth uses water? I've been wondering if
anyone would care to explore that question in the media, but perhaps
it's too far-out for the real scientists to even bother with.
--
Nemo - EAC Commissioner for Bible Belt Underwater Operations.
Atheist #1331 (the Palindrome of doom!)
BAAWA Knight! - One of those warm Southern Knights, y'all!
Charter member, SMASH!!
http://home.earthlink.net/~jehdjh/Relpg.html
Draco Dormiens Nunquam Titillandus
Quotemeister since March 2002
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| User: "Enkidu" |
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| Title: Re: OT - Question for biochemists |
18 Jan 2005 07:18:16 PM |
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*nemo* <nemo0037@earthlink.dieSPAM.net> wrote in news:nemo0037-
4D3489.19480118012005@news1.east.earthlink.net:
Regarding Titan... the latest I have heard is that the environment that
Huygens encountered was quite damp with liquid gases. Methane, I
supppose, but more info will be along in a few days.
My question is this: would it be possible for life to develop that uses
liquid methane the way life on Earth uses water? I've been wondering if
anyone would care to explore that question in the media, but perhaps
it's too far-out for the real scientists to even bother with.
I think water has very special properties based on charge, small size,
surface tension, the way densitiy varies with temperature, etc., so I
doubt life using methane in place of water would be anything like "water-
based life, only with methane". Also, any place cold enough to have
liquid methane will also have so much less light that anything like
photosynthesis would provide far less energy. Something more like the
life around geothermal vents in the Earth's deap oceans seems more likely
to me. But I'm not a chemist or a biologist, so what do I know?
--
Enkidu AA# 2165
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then where does evil come from?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?
Epicurus 341-270 B.C.E.
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| User: "Gregory Gadow" |
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| Title: Re: OT - Question for biochemists |
19 Jan 2005 08:20:46 AM |
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*nemo* wrote:
Regarding Titan... the latest I have heard is that the environment that
Huygens encountered was quite damp with liquid gases. Methane, I
supppose, but more info will be along in a few days.
My question is this: would it be possible for life to develop that uses
liquid methane the way life on Earth uses water? I've been wondering if
anyone would care to explore that question in the media, but perhaps
it's too far-out for the real scientists to even bother with.
No. It is generally believed that H2O is a requirement of life. There has
been much speculation about using methane as an alternative to Earth's CO2
-> O2 -> CO2 energy cycle, however.
--
Gregory Gadow
techbear@serv.net
http://www.serv.net/~techbear
"The President is merely the most important among a large number
of public servants. He should be supported or opposed exactly to
the degree which is warranted by his good conduct or bad conduct,
his efficiency or inefficiency in rendering loyal, able, and
disinterested service to the Nation as a whole. Therefore it is
absolutely necessary that there should be full liberty to tell
the truth about his acts, and this means that it is exactly
necessary to blame him when he does wrong as to praise him when
he does right. Any other attitude in an American citizen is both
base and servile. To announce that there must be no criticism of
the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or
wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable
to the American public. Nothing but the truth should be spoken about
him or any one else. But it is even more important to tell the truth,
pleasant or unpleasant, about him than about any one else."
President Theodore Roosevelt, editorial to the Kansas City Star
May 7, 1918
.
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| User: "Josef Balluch" |
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| Title: Re: OT - Question for biochemists |
18 Jan 2005 08:14:56 PM |
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In a message sent 'round the world, *nemo* poured fuel on the fire with
the following:
Regarding Titan... the latest I have heard is that the environment that
Huygens encountered was quite damp with liquid gases. Methane, I
supppose, but more info will be along in a few days.
My question is this: would it be possible for life to develop that uses
liquid methane the way life on Earth uses water? I've been wondering if
anyone would care to explore that question in the media, but perhaps
it's too far-out for the real scientists to even bother with.
Isaac Asimov explored such questions. The local library might be of help
here. Try this book:
http://homepage.mac.com/jhjenkins/Asimov/Books/Book157.html
For a quick overview of Asimov's chemical schemes for life check the
table on this page, about one quarter of the way down:
http://nicholnl.wcp.muohio.edu/NaturalSystems/NSOneEvolution2.html
Regards,
Josef
Our ignorance is God; what we know is science.
-- Robert Green Ingersoll
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| User: "johac" |
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| Title: Re: OT - Question for biochemists |
19 Jan 2005 01:23:53 AM |
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In article <nemo0037-4D3489.19480118012005@news1.east.earthlink.net>,
*nemo* <nemo0037@earthlink.dieSPAM.net> wrote:
Regarding Titan... the latest I have heard is that the environment that
Huygens encountered was quite damp with liquid gases. Methane, I
supppose, but more info will be along in a few days.
My question is this: would it be possible for life to develop that uses
liquid methane the way life on Earth uses water? I've been wondering if
anyone would care to explore that question in the media, but perhaps
it's too far-out for the real scientists to even bother with.
I think that you would need something more than methane. Methane is
fairly inert chemically (unless you mix it with oxygen and throw in a
match), whereas water not only is a better solvent for biomolecules, but
can take part in many chemical reactions. There is some speculation that
some of what the cameras saw was water ice. However, the biggest problem
for life on the surface of Titan is the temperature. At -180 degrees
Celsius, it is only a few degrees the temperature of liquid nitrogen. It
is very doubtful that any earthlike life could survive. However, there
might be geothermal activity, so perhaps in underground caves or
fissures, some form of life might be possible.
At this point, we just don't know.
--
John Hachmann aa #1782
Intelligent Design has as much to do with science as reality
television has to do with reality. - Barry Lynn on CNN 12/25/04
.
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| User: "Gregory Gadow" |
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| Title: Re: OT - Question for biochemists |
19 Jan 2005 08:29:01 AM |
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johac wrote:
In article <nemo0037-4D3489.19480118012005@news1.east.earthlink.net>,
*nemo* <nemo0037@earthlink.dieSPAM.net> wrote:
Regarding Titan... the latest I have heard is that the environment that
Huygens encountered was quite damp with liquid gases. Methane, I
supppose, but more info will be along in a few days.
My question is this: would it be possible for life to develop that uses
liquid methane the way life on Earth uses water? I've been wondering if
anyone would care to explore that question in the media, but perhaps
it's too far-out for the real scientists to even bother with.
I think that you would need something more than methane. Methane is
fairly inert chemically (unless you mix it with oxygen and throw in a
match), whereas water not only is a better solvent for biomolecules, but
can take part in many chemical reactions. There is some speculation that
some of what the cameras saw was water ice. However, the biggest problem
for life on the surface of Titan is the temperature. At -180 degrees
Celsius, it is only a few degrees the temperature of liquid nitrogen. It
is very doubtful that any earthlike life could survive. However, there
might be geothermal activity, so perhaps in underground caves or
fissures, some form of life might be possible.
There are a few problems.
First off, the only examples of life we know of are ones here on Earth. While
we can make some guesses, we really have no idea at all what life might look
like under different conditions and with an entirely different evolutionary
path. Just because amino acids and water are necessary components of life on
Earth doesn't mean that they are therefore universally necessary.
Second, how would we recognize life forms that use neither amino acids or
water? Under the very low energy conditions of Titan, the processes we use to
define "life" -- growth, the ability to feed, reproduction -- might take
centuries, far too slow for us warm planet creatures who exist but for a
moment.
--
Gregory Gadow
techbear@serv.net
http://www.serv.net/~techbear
"The President is merely the most important among a large number
of public servants. He should be supported or opposed exactly to
the degree which is warranted by his good conduct or bad conduct,
his efficiency or inefficiency in rendering loyal, able, and
disinterested service to the Nation as a whole. Therefore it is
absolutely necessary that there should be full liberty to tell
the truth about his acts, and this means that it is exactly
necessary to blame him when he does wrong as to praise him when
he does right. Any other attitude in an American citizen is both
base and servile. To announce that there must be no criticism of
the President, or that we are to stand by the President, right or
wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable
to the American public. Nothing but the truth should be spoken about
him or any one else. But it is even more important to tell the truth,
pleasant or unpleasant, about him than about any one else."
President Theodore Roosevelt, editorial to the Kansas City Star
May 7, 1918
.
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| User: "johac" |
|
| Title: Re: OT - Question for biochemists |
20 Jan 2005 12:53:09 AM |
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In article <41EE6EAD.A883C6F7@serv.net>,
Gregory Gadow <techbear@serv.net> wrote:
johac wrote:
In article <nemo0037-4D3489.19480118012005@news1.east.earthlink.net>,
*nemo* <nemo0037@earthlink.dieSPAM.net> wrote:
Regarding Titan... the latest I have heard is that the environment that
Huygens encountered was quite damp with liquid gases. Methane, I
supppose, but more info will be along in a few days.
My question is this: would it be possible for life to develop that uses
liquid methane the way life on Earth uses water? I've been wondering if
anyone would care to explore that question in the media, but perhaps
it's too far-out for the real scientists to even bother with.
I think that you would need something more than methane. Methane is
fairly inert chemically (unless you mix it with oxygen and throw in a
match), whereas water not only is a better solvent for biomolecules, but
can take part in many chemical reactions. There is some speculation that
some of what the cameras saw was water ice. However, the biggest problem
for life on the surface of Titan is the temperature. At -180 degrees
Celsius, it is only a few degrees the temperature of liquid nitrogen. It
is very doubtful that any earthlike life could survive. However, there
might be geothermal activity, so perhaps in underground caves or
fissures, some form of life might be possible.
There are a few problems.
First off, the only examples of life we know of are ones here on Earth. While
we can make some guesses, we really have no idea at all what life might look
like under different conditions and with an entirely different evolutionary
path. Just because amino acids and water are necessary components of life on
Earth doesn't mean that they are therefore universally necessary.
Second, how would we recognize life forms that use neither amino acids or
water? Under the very low energy conditions of Titan, the processes we use to
define "life" -- growth, the ability to feed, reproduction -- might take
centuries, far too slow for us warm planet creatures who exist but for a
moment.
--
This is true. Most of the experiments which were sent to Mars or are
being contemplated are looking for Earth like life. We could be staring
at something alive through one of those cameras and not even recognize
it as alive. To grow and reproduce all an organism needs is some way of
extracting energy from it's environment, some way to use that energy to
extract simple simple substances from the environment to build it;'s
physical structure, and some means of transmitting how to do these
things to offspring. Extraterrestrial life may not depend on proteins
and nucleic acids at all. It may not even depend on organic chemistry.
Some of this is touched upon in Robert Shapiro's book, "Planetary
Dreams".
--
John Hachmann aa #1782
Intelligent Design has as much to do with science as reality
television has to do with reality. - Barry Lynn on CNN 12/25/04
.
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