On Mon, 3 Oct 2005 14:56:20 +0930, in alt.atheism , Meteorite Debris
<epicurus1@YOUR_SHOESoptusnet.com.au> in
<MPG.1dab48dcde9dbed998a266@news.optusnet.com.au> wrote:
On Mon, 03 Oct 2005 03:28:30 GMT the ET form known as Matt
Silberstein<RemoveThisPrefixmatts2nospam@ix.netcom.com> sent a radio
signal across the vast expanse of deep space -._.--._.--._.--._.--._.-
-._.
On Mon, 3 Oct 2005 12:53:58 +0930, in alt.atheism , Meteorite Debris
<epicurus1@YOUR_SHOESoptusnet.com.au> in
<MPG.1dab2c2f45b3432598a261@news.optusnet.com.au> wrote:
I attended a talk given by Fisk at the University of Adelaide. The
Inaugural Edward Said Memorial Lecture. There is no journalist better
informed on Middle Eastern matters than Fisk.
[snip]
Robert started off talking about the life and writings of Said, a
Palestinian born in Jerusalem and living most of his time in Cairo and
in the US in a position at Columbia. He talked of Said's contempt for
Arafat, a contempt shared by Fisk. Said also had an interest in music
and formed a combined Israeli-Palestinian orchestra which is still
active today. There followed the history of the Palestine from after
the collapse of the Ottoman Empire leading to the Balfour Declaration,
the warnings in the 30s from European leaders about solving the
problems of one oppressed group by oppressing another group elsewhere.
There were the stories of the terror leading up to the establishment
of Israel in 1948 with killings and exile by Jewish settlers of
Palestinians.
Did he talk about the Arab (at the time the people in the area were
called Arabs) terrorism against Jews from the beginning of the 20th C
on? And before that? Did he talk about the Arab alignment with Hitler
and frequent public calls for the destruction of the Jewish people?
How about a discussion of laws through the Arab world discriminating
against Jews?
Robert showed a video report of one man who had his house under an
order to leave to make way for a new Jewish settlement. This man even
offered to buy one of the new houses so he could continue to live
where he had always lived but was refused.
Anything about Palestinians blowing up Israeli school buses? Or
blowing up Israeli market places? Or Israeli restaurants?
[snip]
When asked about a possible solution to the conflict Fisk's answer was
UN resolution 242. Nothing else work. 242 passed by the UN - a zillion
votes to 2 (US and Israel) calls on Israel to pull back to the pre
1967 borders. Israel is in continuing breech of international law.
U.N. resolutions do not have force of international law. BTW, did he
mention clause 1 (ii) and 2 (c)?
[snip]
Matt you can see the above examples of what you talked about on any
media outlet. That's everywhere.
So this journalist gave a one-sided account. I wonder if you can point
me to some of the "everywhere" that has accounts of Arab terrorism
going back to the early years of the 20th C. Or if you can show me a
recent journalist account mentioning that the PLO and Fatah formed
before the 67 war and used terrorism at that time. Or about the
systemic Arab discrimination against Jews.
What doesn't get covered are the daily humiliations of Palestinians at
checkpoints, the deaths of babies as mothers are held up at
checkpoints
Did he mention that the terrorists use fake pregnant women to carry
bombs and that they use red cross and U.N. ambulances as
transportation vehicles? Did he point out that the Israelis have good
reason to stop these women.
and the laughing of Israeli soldiers as hospital patients
in pain are made to wait and often die.
Did he have documentation of this or was he just passing on rumors he
had heard?
When some Palestinians resort
to terrorism then ALL Palestinians are terrorists
Sorry, but when some Palestinians use terrorism and most Palestinians
publicly declare support for terrorism then the Israelis have to
protect themselves. What would you do if terrorists kept using
ambulances as cover and faked pregnant women?
but when some ultra
orthodox Jews do virtually the same things and say virtually the same
thing this does not make ALL Israelis terrorists.
Funny, the Arab world has treated all Jews as the enemy for a long
time, it is kind of late to ask for some kind of distinctions to be
made. BTW, did this "journalist" say anything about various
organizations and universities in the West that have declared Israel a
terrorist nation and moved to cut off contact with it?
There are Jews who
want to wipe every dirty Arab off the face of the earth. These people
are as bad as suicide bombers.
Wanting <> doing.
This is not all Israelis. Same too for
the Palestinians. You have to admit that within Israel there are some
very ugly religious fundies who want to reproduce the bloodshed of the
old testament.
"Admit" is, as they say, a cheap lawyer trick, an attempt to make it
look like you have moved me from my previous position to agreeing with
you. Yes, there are those in Israel who hold positions I strongly
disagree with. They are not now and never have been the majority voice
among Israelis. "Throwing the Jews into the sea" was the declared
position of several nations in the area. The people in the area have
discriminated against Jews, as Jews, and attacked Jews, as Jews, long
before there was a Zionist movement. They have done this before there
was an Israel and before there were any people saying they wanted to
remove all Arabs from the area. The *Palestinian* position for a very
long time has been that it is not possible for both people's to live
together. If that is so, why do the Palestinians get to stay and where
should the Jews go?
But there are some differences. No Palestinian bulldozer has ever
demolished one single Israeli house. Not a single one.
Just bombs.
No Israeli
woman giving birth has watched her baby died at a Palestinian
checkpoint that was between her and her hospital.
I would like documentation on this and some numbers.
Not a single
helicopter has blasted missiles into a busy Israeli street killing not
just a targeted suspect but also innocent bystanders.
True, they use bombs on buses and market places and *target* innocent
bystanders. Attacking the bystander is Fatah and Hamas *policy*. They
started a war and they are whining that the enemy has better weapons.
BTW in the rest
of the world the norm is to put a suspect on trial. Summary killings
are for more barbaric countries.
So, who has the best, most just, legal system in the Middle East? In
which country in the area would you want to be on trial or in prison?
Not a single child in an Israeli
classroom has been shot by a stray bullet from a Palestinian soldier.
They have been killed by Arab missiles and by Palestinian bombs.
Ever. The Israeli Education Ministry has never been occupied by
Palestinian soldiers
Gee, they loose the battles and they complain.
who urinated and defecated on the office
equipment and graffitied children's pictures pasted to the sides of
the offices. Never happened.
Because they never get the chance. You defend bombing markets and
blowing up school buses with this?
Face it Matt. There is a lot of ugliness
from the Israelis. They are not all saints.
Again you play this game. Sorry, but the day when Jews had to be
perfect in order to get any consideration has passed. You are right,
they are not saints. The thing is, sainthood is not the standard. They
are astoundingly better than their opponents. They are remarkably
better than the U.S. and they have lost so many more people (in
absolute numbers as well as %) in so many more attacks for so much
longer than the U.S. When you find some saints to compare the Israelis
to we can discuss that, meanwhile I will compare them to other humans.
I do however have the greatest admiration for the refusniks. They are
some of the bravest people in the world.
Not as brave as a Palestinians who stands up to the terrorists. They
get killed for their stand.
They are walking in the path
of Gandhi and Martin Luther King. They have seen many of the abuses of
Israeli soldiers as soldiers themselves and they have said NO. Power
to them.
Where are the Palestinians who stand up for peace? Oh, that's right,
they are dead.
Israel is the last European settler society of the European age of
colonialism. Myself I can see an Israel in 2050 but not in 2100. This
is because Israel is a subsidised state that depends on US aid.
Imperial over reach means that Israeli aid will have to be severed.
Overshoot is further exacerbated by energy problems that promise only
to get worse in the 21st century.
Yes, it might be possible to kill all of the Jews. I hope you do not
get your wish.
--
Matt Silberstein
Do something today about the Darfur Genocide
Genocide is news | Be A Witness
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