| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"stoney" |
| Date: |
29 Jan 2006 07:06:54 PM |
| Object: |
OT: How the US fell out of love with its cars |
http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,12271,1697518,00.html?gusrc=rss
How the US fell out of love with its cars
Tail fins and chrome grilles were once the symbols of a superpower. Now,
with 36,000 jobs cut in a week and foreign vehicles filling the
highways, Paul Harris in New York surveys the collapse of an industry
Sunday January 29, 2006
The Observer
For John McVeigh, making cars was not just a job; it was his shot at the
American Dream. He had left Glasgow a young, wide-eyed man at 21 and
ended up in Detroit, lured by the huge factories churning out the cars
that defined 20th century US life.
He started on the factory floor and rose through the ranks. When he
retired in 1989 he was part of the management; he had brought up four
good children and lived in a nice house in the suburbs. His neighbours'
life stories mirrored his.
But after a week in which Ford laid off 30,000 workers and shut 14
factories, McVeigh knows his story is now part of history, like the
homesteaders or the goldrushers, a way of life his grandchildren will
never know. He winced at the news. 'You can't do what I did now. It just
could not happen again,' he said in an accent still coloured by his
Scots childhood. The statistics tell a bleak story of economic disaster
that has seen a whole corner of north-east America dubbed the Rust Belt.
The Big Three - Ford, General Motors and Chrysler - have declining
market share, crippling pension costs and a product line reliant on deep
discounts to sell. Chrysler has been taken over by the Germans and GM
posted a $8.6bn loss last week, its biggest since 1992. Ford has been
losing market share for 10 straight years. Last week's news was so bad
that few people noticed DaimlerChrysler quietly announcing it too was
axeing 6,000 staff. At the same time, foreign firms have been invading.
In 1979 the Big Three sold nearly nine out of every 10 new vehicles on
US roads. By 2004, as European and Asian firms ate away at their market,
only about 50 per cent of the nation's new cars were sold by US
producers. By October 2005, cars made by the Big Three accounted for
about 40 per cent of the US market, according to Forbes. Toyota, Honda
and Korean Hyundai had all made inroads. Even that US archetype the
truck saw 30 per cent of its market go to foreigners.
The US car industry is lurching into terminal decline. It means a
fundamental part of America has died as well. Nothing has come to
symbolise the American century more than the American car. It began with
Henry Ford and the Model T and went right through the tail-finned
monsters of the Fifties and the hot rods of the Seventies.
American cars were about freedom, sexual liberation and sheer confident
patriotism. For young Americans a driving licence and their first Chevy
or Ford was the most important rite of passage into adulthood. The car
gave birth to other American icons: the motel, the advertising billboard
and the diner. They were all children of the road.
Of course, the car still defines a lifestyle. Americans still buy cars
by the millions, whether they are in gridlocked LA or in the middle of
Kansas miles from the nearest town. But what does it mean when a
country's cultural heart is now made in Japan? Or Korea? Or Germany?
On a stretch of Texas highway west of Amarillo lies Cadillac Ranch.
Planted in a field of wheat are 10 rusting Cadillacs, ranging from a
1949 Club Coupe to a 1963 Sedan. All stand face down in the earth,
enormous tail fins pointing defiantly at the sky. They hail from an era
when the Cadillac motto was 'The Standard of the World'.
Motorists in their thousands pull off the Interstate in their Hondas and
Toyotas to gawp at the sculpture that has stood there for 32 years: a
row of automobile tombstones. 'When we made it, Cadillac Ranch was
intended to be as much a monument to the glory of the tail fin as a
burial of the gas guzzler, said Chip Lord, one of the artists behind
what has become one of the most famous US public works of art. 'But
that's not how people see it these days.' When Lord and his fellow
artists collected the Cadillacs for their work, they toured the Texas
panhandle looking for cheap deals. Driving the huge beasts to Amarillo
was a 'white trash dream come true,' he says.
Back in 1974 the cars' paint gleamed under the blue Western skies. Now
they are rusted and covered in graffiti. 'Perhaps it can be seen now as
a sign of the decline of the American empire,' Lord mused. 'It could
become a symbol for it.'
Lord now drives a Honda: 'I know the thrill of being on the road in one
of those old American cars, but the fact is that if you drive one you
quickly realise how archaic they are.'
The thrill used to be all anyone cared about. American cars had names
such as Mustang, Charger and Javelin. They were about moving forward, at
speed and damn the consequences. The size of the engine and the roar it
made cruising down the road were all that mattered. The American car was
the ultimate expression of the self.
It was a story that begun at the start of the 20th century in Detroit,
when Henry Ford, born on a Michigan farm, mass-produced the Model T. He
changed not only his own life from rural poverty to urban riches, but
the country's too.
In thrall to the car, America went from a farming-based society centred
on small- town morality to an industrialised behemoth where the new
cultural hero - personified by Ford himself - was the big city
capitalist. The new frontier was not out on the open range or staking a
homestead, it was on urban streets and the new horse was a car. Detroit
became Motown - Motor City.
From the beginning, America's cars were just as much lifestyle as they
were practical. In the Twenties, Ford Motion Pictures was the biggest
film producer in the world, spewing out more than 3,000 movies
celebrating the adventures to be had behind the wheel of a Ford. Product
placement is no newcomer to the film industry; it was there at the
birth.
In the Fifties and Sixties, brimming with post-war confidence, America
entered the age of drive-in cinemas and suburbs geared around cars.
James Dean drove a 1949 Mercury in Rebel Without A Cause and Steve
McQueen tore through the streets of San Francisco in a 1968 Mustang in
Bullitt. JFK was shot in a Lincoln Continental. Car advertisements
featured open roads, blue skies and square-jawed fathers piloting wives
and children along new Interstate highways (the biggest public works
project in the history of the world). American cars were the best in the
world because America was the best in the world.
It ended in the 1970s with the Oil Shock. Suddenly America - and its
cars - were vulnerable. Rob Latham, a popular culture expert at the
University of Iowa, was given his first car at the same time. 'It was a
1963 Chevy Malibu convertible. I was 16 years old, driving this huge gas
guzzler right through the middle of the oil crisis when you were only
allowed to buy petrol every other day. It was nuts,' he said. 'I later
wrapped it around a telephone pole, but I loved that car.' He now drives
a Suburu.
The same thing happened to Detroit. The 1970s triggered the decline of
the American car industry and a landscape of huge factories and
skyscrapers turned into an urban wasteland. Only last week, the downtown
home of Motown records, whose music was born from black workers flocking
to the city for the car factory jobs, was bulldozed.
America's tempestuous affair with the car has become a passionless
marriage. Americans still need their cars, but the world has changed and
they no longer really love them. Chrysler was taken over by Germany's
Daimler. Japanese firms, such as Toyota and Honda, are opening plants as
Ford shuts down. Cars are not big business. Ford as a company is worth
about $15bn - Google is worth $129bn.
US car design and production values have also been criticised. For years
American cars have been outperformed by their European and Asian
competitors. 'Asian and European design used to be considered a joke in
the 1980s. Now it is the standard for cars,' said Lord.
Many of the US cars now on the market copy modest European and Japanese
designs and shun the brasher concepts. Ford has brought in two Britons
to be in charge of the look of its European and US products. Future cars
will also be more fuel-efficient and aware of green issues. That is
probably good for the environment, but represents a huge shift in what a
car actually means to Americans - and what America means to itself.
The Hollywood car of choice now is not the 1946 Fat Fender Ford Coupé of
John Travolta's 'Greased Lightning' or Jayne Mansfield's Buick Electra.
It is the Toyota Prius, an energy-efficient hybrid driven by Cameron
Diaz and Leonardo di Caprio. And the king of the recent SUV craze is the
far from sexy Hummer, a boxy military-style vehicle, inspired by the
1991 Gulf war, that encloses its owner in a protective shell. A car born
of looking for enemies, not rolling down the windows and hitting the
road.
Latham says his students no longer see their cars as an essential
expression; their Toyotas and Hondas are just vehicles. They boast of
iPods or computer games, not their 'wheels'.
'They are like walking cyborgs with all these things attached to them.
Cars have become functional. They are not statements anymore.
Electronics are,' he said.
Lord agrees: 'Young people do not have that same set of cultural signs.
Their cultural landscape is about technology and the internet, not about
convertibles and driving across America.'
The Age of the American car is passing into nostalgia. Latham once
studied a slew of road movies from the early 1990s in which old American
cars were nostalgically treated. The most famous was Thelma and Louise,
in which two put-upon women find freedom in an open-top T-Bird. At the
end of the film, the heroines hold hands and drive off the edge of a
cliff.
It is a fitting image for the death of a slice of the American Dream.
After decades of the car being so much more than just a mode of
transport - of symbolising industry, art, freedom, sex, a triumphant
America - it has now become simply a way of getting from A to B.
© Guardian Newspapers Limited 2006
--
Fundies and trolls are cordially invited to
shove a wooden cross up their arses and rotate
at a high rate of speed. I trust you'll
be 'blessed' with a cornucopia of splinters.
.
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| User: "Xtrchessreal" |
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| Title: Re: OT: How the US fell out of love with its cars |
30 Jan 2006 02:50:56 AM |
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The analogy of the old west and now the US car is a great insight to
how the USA is going through another great change. What is the change
though? What is the new industrial era? What shall I learn in school
to stake my place in this new world?
Is there any one thing in America I can do that is strictly american?
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| User: "Robibnikoff" |
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| Title: Re: OT: How the US fell out of love with its cars |
30 Jan 2006 10:32:07 AM |
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"Xtrchessreal" <markgharrison@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:1138611056.673830.180120@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
The analogy of the old west and now the US car is a great insight to
how the USA is going through another great change. What is the change
though? What is the new industrial era? What shall I learn in school
to stake my place in this new world?
Is there any one thing in America I can do that is strictly american?
Go to a baseball game.
--
Robyn
Resident Witchypoo
#1557
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| User: "John Baker" |
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| Title: Re: OT: How the US fell out of love with its cars |
30 Jan 2006 01:42:57 PM |
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On Mon, 30 Jan 2006 11:32:07 -0500, "Robibnikoff"
<witchypoo@broomstick.com> wrote:
"Xtrchessreal" <markgharrison@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:1138611056.673830.180120@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
The analogy of the old west and now the US car is a great insight to
how the USA is going through another great change. What is the change
though? What is the new industrial era? What shall I learn in school
to stake my place in this new world?
Is there any one thing in America I can do that is strictly american?
Go to a baseball game.
Actually, baseball is more popular in Japan than it is here...
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| User: "satyr" |
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| Title: Re: OT: How the US fell out of love with its cars |
30 Jan 2006 11:37:29 PM |
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On Mon, 30 Jan 2006 11:32:07 -0500, "Robibnikoff"
<witchypoo@broomstick.com> wrote:
"Xtrchessreal" <markgharrison@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:1138611056.673830.180120@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
The analogy of the old west and now the US car is a great insight to
how the USA is going through another great change. What is the change
though? What is the new industrial era? What shall I learn in school
to stake my place in this new world?
Is there any one thing in America I can do that is strictly american?
Go to a baseball game.
Is Hideo Nomo pitching?
--
satyr #1953
Chairman, EAC Church Taxation Subcommittee
Director, Gideon Bible Alternative Fuel Project
Supervisor, EAC Fossil Casting Lab
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| User: "stoney" |
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| Title: Re: OT: How the US fell out of love with its cars |
30 Jan 2006 05:57:38 PM |
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On 30 Jan 2006 00:50:56 -0800, "Xtrchessreal"
<markgharrison@comcast.net> wrote in alt.atheism
The analogy of the old west and now the US car is a great insight to
how the USA is going through another great change. What is the change
though?
The U.S. has been shifting from an industrial stance to a service stance
for decades. The service stance has been shifting overseas for about
the last decade or so.
What is the new industrial era?
Industrial isn't.
What shall I learn in school to stake my place in this new world?
I'd suggest a very strong broad base foundation which would allow you to
be 'fast on your feet' in response to an ever fluid situation. I'd also
suggest depth in logic and analysis with a good familiarization in
marketing. Such would, I think, allow you to keep your eyes open for
trends and niche markets which may be capitalized on for a few years
[I'm guessing an average of 3 years and probably maximizing at 5] then
sold while moving on to the next opportunity.
Is there any one thing in America I can do that is strictly american?
No.
--
Fundies and trolls are cordially invited to
shove a wooden cross up their arses and rotate
at a high rate of speed. I trust you'll
be 'blessed' with a cornucopia of splinters.
.
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| User: "Conspiracy of Doves" |
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| Title: Re: OT: How the US fell out of love with its cars |
29 Jan 2006 09:20:55 PM |
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stoney wrote:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,12271,1697518,00.html?gusrc=rss
How the US fell out of love with its cars
<snip>
Have they considered the possibility that American cars suck?
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| User: "R. Pierce Butler" |
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| Title: Re: OT: How the US fell out of love with its cars |
29 Jan 2006 09:30:17 PM |
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"Conspiracy of Doves" <mark_dp73@yahoo.com> wrote in
news:1138591255.074735.212500@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com:
stoney wrote:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,12271,1697518,00.html?gusrc=rss
How the US fell out of love with its cars
<snip>
Have they considered the possibility that American cars suck?
American cars do not suck. They suck rocks and sometimes they suck green
wind, but they never just suck. Just my $0.02.
pierce
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| User: "towelie" |
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| Title: Re: OT: How the US fell out of love with its cars |
29 Jan 2006 11:50:49 PM |
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R. Pierce Butler wrote:
"Conspiracy of Doves" <mark_dp73@yahoo.com> wrote in
news:1138591255.074735.212500@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com:
stoney wrote:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,12271,1697518,00.html?gusrc=rss
How the US fell out of love with its cars
<snip>
Have they considered the possibility that American cars suck?
American cars do not suck. They suck rocks and sometimes they suck green
wind, but they never just suck. Just my $0.02.
I drive a Chevrolet, and it does not suck. I've owned Japanese cars and
domestics, and the quality gap is largely a myth, at least as far as late
model cars go.
--
aa #2133
ap #19
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| User: "R. Pierce Butler" |
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| Title: Re: OT: How the US fell out of love with its cars |
30 Jan 2006 12:01:13 AM |
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"towelie" <bugoNOSPAM@hotmail.com> wrote in
news:yq6dne9koIqoNEDenZ2dnUVZ_tadnZ2d@centurytel.net:
R. Pierce Butler wrote:
"Conspiracy of Doves" <mark_dp73@yahoo.com> wrote in
news:1138591255.074735.212500@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com:
stoney wrote:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,12271,1697518,00.html?gusrc=rss
How the US fell out of love with its cars
<snip>
Have they considered the possibility that American cars suck?
American cars do not suck. They suck rocks and sometimes they suck
green wind, but they never just suck. Just my $0.02.
I drive a Chevrolet, and it does not suck. I've owned Japanese cars and
domestics, and the quality gap is largely a myth, at least as far as
late model cars go.
Ever drive an Audi S4? Porsche 911? How about a BMW 3 series?
pierce
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| User: "towelie" |
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| Title: Re: OT: How the US fell out of love with its cars |
30 Jan 2006 12:22:30 AM |
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R. Pierce Butler wrote:
"towelie" <bugoNOSPAM@hotmail.com> wrote in
news:yq6dne9koIqoNEDenZ2dnUVZ_tadnZ2d@centurytel.net:
R. Pierce Butler wrote:
"Conspiracy of Doves" <mark_dp73@yahoo.com> wrote in
news:1138591255.074735.212500@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com:
stoney wrote:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,12271,1697518,00.html?gusrc=rss
How the US fell out of love with its cars
<snip>
Have they considered the possibility that American cars suck?
American cars do not suck. They suck rocks and sometimes they suck
green wind, but they never just suck. Just my $0.02.
I drive a Chevrolet, and it does not suck. I've owned Japanese cars and
domestics, and the quality gap is largely a myth, at least as far as
late model cars go.
Ever drive an Audi S4? Porsche 911? How about a BMW 3 series?
Nope. But I know my car has 120,000 trouble-free miles on the clock. And
it doesn't cost an arm and a leg to operate and if something does go wrong,
I don't have to have it towed 150 miles to a dealer.
--
aa #2133
ap #19
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| User: "R. Pierce Butler" |
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| Title: Re: OT: How the US fell out of love with its cars |
30 Jan 2006 12:46:34 AM |
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"towelie" <bugoNOSPAM@hotmail.com> wrote in
news:roGdnXXnQs40LUDenZ2dnUVZ_sydnZ2d@centurytel.net:
R. Pierce Butler wrote:
"towelie" <bugoNOSPAM@hotmail.com> wrote in
news:yq6dne9koIqoNEDenZ2dnUVZ_tadnZ2d@centurytel.net:
R. Pierce Butler wrote:
"Conspiracy of Doves" <mark_dp73@yahoo.com> wrote in
news:1138591255.074735.212500@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com:
stoney wrote:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,12271,1697518,00.html?gusrc=rs
s
How the US fell out of love with its cars
<snip>
Have they considered the possibility that American cars suck?
American cars do not suck. They suck rocks and sometimes they suck
green wind, but they never just suck. Just my $0.02.
I drive a Chevrolet, and it does not suck. I've owned Japanese cars
and domestics, and the quality gap is largely a myth, at least as far
as late model cars go.
Ever drive an Audi S4? Porsche 911? How about a BMW 3 series?
Nope. But I know my car has 120,000 trouble-free miles on the clock.
And it doesn't cost an arm and a leg to operate and if something does go
wrong, I don't have to have it towed 150 miles to a dealer.
Then you really don't know what you are talking about.
This is like you claiming that Pizza Hut is great pizza when you haven't
tried anything else.
Go test drive an Audi A4 or A6 for a couple of hours then come back and
tell me how great your american car is.
pierce
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| User: "towelie" |
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| Title: Re: OT: How the US fell out of love with its cars |
30 Jan 2006 01:17:20 AM |
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R. Pierce Butler wrote:
I drive a Chevrolet, and it does not suck. I've owned Japanese cars
and domestics, and the quality gap is largely a myth, at least as far
as late model cars go.
Ever drive an Audi S4? Porsche 911? How about a BMW 3 series?
Nope. But I know my car has 120,000 trouble-free miles on the clock.
And it doesn't cost an arm and a leg to operate and if something does go
wrong, I don't have to have it towed 150 miles to a dealer.
Then you really don't know what you are talking about.
Because I haven't driven three particular cars? I've driven hundreds of
cars, US, European, and Japanese. Just because I've never driven the three
cars on your list does not mean I don't know what I'm talking about.
This is like you claiming that Pizza Hut is great pizza when you haven't
tried anything else.
And what you're saying is like saying I can't have an opinion on pizza just
because I haven't tried a certain type of pizza.
Go test drive an Audi A4 or A6 for a couple of hours then come back and
tell me how great your american car is.
Audis are overrated. They're nice cars, but overrated.
--
aa #2133
ap #19
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| User: "R. Pierce Butler" |
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| Title: Re: OT: How the US fell out of love with its cars |
30 Jan 2006 02:19:44 AM |
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"towelie" <bugoNOSPAM@hotmail.com> wrote in
news:1YednajhTOvjIEDenZ2dnUVZ_tudnZ2d@centurytel.net:
R. Pierce Butler wrote:
I drive a Chevrolet, and it does not suck. I've owned Japanese cars
and domestics, and the quality gap is largely a myth, at least as
far as late model cars go.
Ever drive an Audi S4? Porsche 911? How about a BMW 3 series?
Nope. But I know my car has 120,000 trouble-free miles on the clock.
And it doesn't cost an arm and a leg to operate and if something does
go wrong, I don't have to have it towed 150 miles to a dealer.
Then you really don't know what you are talking about.
Because I haven't driven three particular cars? I've driven hundreds of
cars, US, European, and Japanese. Just because I've never driven the
three cars on your list does not mean I don't know what I'm talking
about.
This is like you claiming that Pizza Hut is great pizza when you
haven't tried anything else.
And what you're saying is like saying I can't have an opinion on pizza
just because I haven't tried a certain type of pizza.
No, you can hold any opinion you want. What I am saying is that your
opinion is not worth much until you do.
Go test drive an Audi A4 or A6 for a couple of hours then come back and
tell me how great your american car is.
Audis are overrated. They're nice cars, but overrated.
Drive one. You will see why.
Want real excitement? Drive a RS6. Don't like it? Try a M3 or 3 series
bmw. Still not to your liking? The Porsche 911 turbo will make your heart
beat faster. You just have to dig a little deeper for any of them.
Better yet, test drive all three of the following: A common A4 or A6, a 3
or 5 series, and just for fun, any comparable priced Chevy. Then come back
and tell me just how great your Chevy is.
Catch the Top Gear videos on video.google.com. I like their review of the
Ford F150 Lightning.
pierce
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| User: "Xtrchessreal" |
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| Title: Re: OT: How the US fell out of love with its cars |
30 Jan 2006 02:45:36 AM |
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I have had the pleasure of driving a 2002 BMW M3 with the new engine
and the 6 forward gear F1 style electronic clutch. My adreneline
rushed for months. I used to take it out at night around 3 AM to a few
certain roads around here and run it around 120 MPH. Very exciting.
It made me take that course in Vegas driving a Nascar around the track
a few times at 160 MPH whew what a rush - like the roller coaster when
I was a little kid.
Beyond speed, the BMW is very well engineered for driving in regular
traffic as well as having the buttons etc at the right places on the
dash and steering wheel. Passing a FH in a split second is nice,
Vettes and Cameros etc take way too much time and labor at it - in fact
sometimes you have to give up trying because the window of oportunity
begins closing before you can acheive it. I have been in several 3
series 318,328, 330, M3 also X5 they all have the same great
engineering and road handling acceleration etc.
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| User: "Chris H. Fleming" |
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| Title: Re: OT: How the US fell out of love with its cars |
30 Jan 2006 04:01:56 AM |
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towelie wrote:
R. Pierce Butler wrote:
"Conspiracy of Doves" <mark_dp73@yahoo.com> wrote in
news:1138591255.074735.212500@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com:
stoney wrote:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,12271,1697518,00.html?gusrc=rss
How the US fell out of love with its cars
<snip>
Have they considered the possibility that American cars suck?
American cars do not suck. They suck rocks and sometimes they suck green
wind, but they never just suck. Just my $0.02.
I drive a Chevrolet, and it does not suck. I've owned Japanese cars and
domestics, and the quality gap is largely a myth, at least as far as late
model cars go.
Consumer reports would say otherwise about reliability.
Guess who I trust?
.
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| User: "R. Pierce Butler" |
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| Title: Re: OT: How the US fell out of love with its cars |
30 Jan 2006 07:42:04 PM |
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"Chris H. Fleming" <chris_h_fleming@yahoo.com> wrote in
news:1138615316.803475.108450@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
towelie wrote:
R. Pierce Butler wrote:
"Conspiracy of Doves" <mark_dp73@yahoo.com> wrote in
news:1138591255.074735.212500@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com:
stoney wrote:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,12271,1697518,00.html?gusrc=rs
s
How the US fell out of love with its cars
<snip>
Have they considered the possibility that American cars suck?
American cars do not suck. They suck rocks and sometimes they suck
green wind, but they never just suck. Just my $0.02.
I drive a Chevrolet, and it does not suck. I've owned Japanese cars
and domestics, and the quality gap is largely a myth, at least as far
as late model cars go.
Consumer reports would say otherwise about reliability.
Guess who I trust?
I learned long ago that the people at Consumer Reports are complete and
total idiots. I have found that the hard way. I keep checking
periodically and yes they are still idiots all these years.
I was burned a few times believing their *****. Then I learned. Never
again will I take their advice on anything. I do my own reasearch and pick
out what I think is best for the money I plan to spend. I do great with my
choices thanks.
Reliability? Ask yourself a question. How do they know what the
reliability is for a car? Do they have a magic crystal ball that peers
into the future and warns them that the 2-3 clutch seals that they put in
the transmission will fail after 85,000 miles and it will cost $1500 -
$2500 to fix? It is speculation at best. Screw them. I get better data
from other sources and I don't have to pay someone for it either.
I firmly believe that those people just make stuff up as they go along.
How do they rate Blose? I'll bet the Blose products are still rated quite
high. The facts can be summed up as follows: "No highs? No lows? Gotta
be Bose".
pierce
.
|
|
|
| User: "satyr" |
|
| Title: Re: OT: How the US fell out of love with its cars |
30 Jan 2006 11:29:26 PM |
|
|
On Tue, 31 Jan 2006 01:42:04 GMT, "R. Pierce Butler"
<spamsucks@google.com> wrote:
I learned long ago that the people at Consumer Reports are complete and
total idiots. I have found that the hard way. I keep checking
periodically and yes they are still idiots all these years.
Reliability? Ask yourself a question. How do they know what the
reliability is for a car?
Uh, they survey 750,000 owners every year?
--
satyr #1953
Chairman, EAC Church Taxation Subcommittee
Director, Gideon Bible Alternative Fuel Project
Supervisor, EAC Fossil Casting Lab
.
|
|
|
| User: "R. Pierce Butler" |
|
| Title: Re: OT: How the US fell out of love with its cars |
31 Jan 2006 01:02:14 AM |
|
|
satyr <RsEaMtOyVrE@infidels.org> wrote in
news:7cttt1htmln0i0csd35n0uoj4k2s2ujl34@4ax.com:
On Tue, 31 Jan 2006 01:42:04 GMT, "R. Pierce Butler"
<spamsucks@google.com> wrote:
I learned long ago that the people at Consumer Reports are complete and
total idiots. I have found that the hard way. I keep checking
periodically and yes they are still idiots all these years.
Reliability? Ask yourself a question. How do they know what the
reliability is for a car?
Uh, they survey 750,000 owners every year?
And that is factual evidence for future perfomance?
Please.
Let's say I buy a new 2006 Blech. I look at the evidence presented for the
past 3 years. Spotless. A few months after I buy it the now 2002 Blech
experiences transmission failures The number rises over the next year to
over 70% The transmission are designed wrong and when something goes wrong
the trans eats itself.
The next year yields 80% failure rate for the Air Conditioner on the 2003
Blech. The compressor is the wrong compressor. The contaminates the
entire systerm with metal shavings and burnt oil. Everything has to be
replaced.
The next year the same thing happens to the 2004 Blech only now it is the
engine that grenades.
I look at Consumer Reports and the rating is zero. Moto-Motors has
declared bankrupcy and is liquidating it's assets meaning that parts will
soon be non-existent. When I bought my car the ratng was the highest ever
recorded by CR. Now it is the lowest. I spent $15,000 dollars for
something that is worth $500.00 three years later.
Please tell me again how wonderfully they determine relaibility scores and
how great their research is.
pierce
.
|
|
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| User: "satyr" |
|
| Title: Re: OT: How the US fell out of love with its cars |
01 Feb 2006 06:52:37 PM |
|
|
On Tue, 31 Jan 2006 07:02:14 GMT, "R. Pierce Butler"
<spamsucks@google.com> wrote:
satyr <RsEaMtOyVrE@infidels.org> wrote in
news:7cttt1htmln0i0csd35n0uoj4k2s2ujl34@4ax.com:
On Tue, 31 Jan 2006 01:42:04 GMT, "R. Pierce Butler"
<spamsucks@google.com> wrote:
I learned long ago that the people at Consumer Reports are complete and
total idiots. I have found that the hard way. I keep checking
periodically and yes they are still idiots all these years.
Reliability? Ask yourself a question. How do they know what the
reliability is for a car?
Uh, they survey 750,000 owners every year?
And that is factual evidence for future perfomance?
Please.
Let's say I buy a new 2006 Blech. I look at the evidence presented for the
past 3 years. Spotless. A few months after I buy it the now 2002 Blech
experiences transmission failures The number rises over the next year to
over 70% The transmission are designed wrong and when something goes wrong
the trans eats itself.
The next year yields 80% failure rate for the Air Conditioner on the 2003
Blech. The compressor is the wrong compressor. The contaminates the
entire systerm with metal shavings and burnt oil. Everything has to be
replaced.
The next year the same thing happens to the 2004 Blech only now it is the
engine that grenades.
I look at Consumer Reports and the rating is zero. Moto-Motors has
declared bankrupcy and is liquidating it's assets meaning that parts will
soon be non-existent. When I bought my car the ratng was the highest ever
recorded by CR. Now it is the lowest. I spent $15,000 dollars for
something that is worth $500.00 three years later.
Please tell me again how wonderfully they determine relaibility scores and
how great their research is.
Well, gee, I can't find Blech or Moto-Motors listed on the CR survey
results so I guess we can't hold them to any level of reliability
performance on that model. What they recommended was a Honda or a
Toyota. Sorry about your Blech.
Your complaint seems to boil down to, "hypothetically, reliability
surveys might steer me wrong on a particular model so they are
worthless. The argument could be made that in the past, keeping your
eyes open while crossing the street correlates with a greater chance
of survival. But what if the local street gang just made as their
initiation right the running down of a pedestrian with his eyes open.
The conclusion, I suppose, is that keeping your eyes open while you
cross the street might be dangerous so it doesn't matter if you do or
not.
The fact is that the CR survey has found every year for decades that
Honda and Toyota make the most reliable cars. That doesn't guarantee
that the 2006 models will continue that history or, even if they do,
that the particular 2006 Honda vehicle you buy will be reliable. But,
if you had made that assumption in 1980 or 1985 or 1990 or 1995 or
2000 you would have been proven correct with respect to the
reliability of the fleet and if you had bought a Honda or Toyota from
those years you would have maximized your chances or getting a
reliable car. What more do you want from a $5 magazine?
--
satyr #1953
Chairman, EAC Church Taxation Subcommittee
Director, Gideon Bible Alternative Fuel Project
Supervisor, EAC Fossil Casting Lab
.
|
|
|
| User: "R. Pierce Butler" |
|
| Title: Re: OT: How the US fell out of love with its cars |
01 Feb 2006 09:29:19 PM |
|
|
satyr <RsEaMtOyVrE@infidels.org> wrote in
news:urk2u112397pqup9vlhnup55qtdf5ncjef@4ax.com:
What more do you want from a $5 magazine?
Basic competency would be nice.
.
|
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|
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|
|
| User: "John Baker" |
|
| Title: Re: OT: How the US fell out of love with its cars |
30 Jan 2006 10:25:12 PM |
|
|
On Tue, 31 Jan 2006 01:42:04 GMT, "R. Pierce Butler"
<spamsucks@google.com> wrote:
"Chris H. Fleming" <chris_h_fleming@yahoo.com> wrote in
news:1138615316.803475.108450@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
towelie wrote:
R. Pierce Butler wrote:
"Conspiracy of Doves" <mark_dp73@yahoo.com> wrote in
news:1138591255.074735.212500@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com:
stoney wrote:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,12271,1697518,00.html?gusrc=rs
s
How the US fell out of love with its cars
<snip>
Have they considered the possibility that American cars suck?
American cars do not suck. They suck rocks and sometimes they suck
green wind, but they never just suck. Just my $0.02.
I drive a Chevrolet, and it does not suck. I've owned Japanese cars
and domestics, and the quality gap is largely a myth, at least as far
as late model cars go.
Consumer reports would say otherwise about reliability.
Guess who I trust?
I learned long ago that the people at Consumer Reports are complete and
total idiots. I have found that the hard way. I keep checking
periodically and yes they are still idiots all these years.
When it comes to the types of products I'm most interested in, they're
totally clueless. They think a $150 Pioneer black box and a $100 pair
of Sony speakers from Best Buy is a "high end stereo." If you believe
for a minute that 20 pound black box can actually turn out an honest
100 watts per channel, you deserve to be stuck with it. <G>
And don't even get me started on the crap they try to pass off as a
good camera.
I was burned a few times believing their *****. Then I learned. Never
again will I take their advice on anything. I do my own reasearch and pick
out what I think is best for the money I plan to spend. I do great with my
choices thanks.
It only took me one time paying far too much for a piece of junk
(crappy computer monitor that CR rated a "Best Buy") to learn that it
isn't a good idea to let people who don't have a clue do your research
for you. Of course, it's my own fault. Given their complete
incompetence re. audio and photo gear, why did I think they'd be any
more on target with the monitor? <G>
Reliability? Ask yourself a question. How do they know what the
reliability is for a car? Do they have a magic crystal ball that peers
into the future and warns them that the 2-3 clutch seals that they put in
the transmission will fail after 85,000 miles and it will cost $1500 -
$2500 to fix? It is speculation at best. Screw them. I get better data
from other sources and I don't have to pay someone for it either.
I firmly believe that those people just make stuff up as they go along.
How do they rate Blose? I'll bet the Blose products are still rated quite
high. The facts can be summed up as follows: "No highs? No lows? Gotta
be Bose".
Newer Bose products, while still not something I'd buy, do sound much
better than the old 901s, which IMO were one of the most overrated and
overpriced products in the history of hi fi.
pierce
.
|
|
|
| User: "R. Pierce Butler" |
|
| Title: Re: OT: How the US fell out of love with its cars |
30 Jan 2006 10:58:56 PM |
|
|
John Baker <nunya@bizniz.net> wrote in
news:s5ott117gt34t6sg2hhs69lmvtsj2ssjtt@4ax.com:
On Tue, 31 Jan 2006 01:42:04 GMT, "R. Pierce Butler"
<spamsucks@google.com> wrote:
"Chris H. Fleming" <chris_h_fleming@yahoo.com> wrote in
news:1138615316.803475.108450@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
towelie wrote:
R. Pierce Butler wrote:
"Conspiracy of Doves" <mark_dp73@yahoo.com> wrote in
news:1138591255.074735.212500@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com:
stoney wrote:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,12271,1697518,00.html?gusrc=
rs s
How the US fell out of love with its cars
<snip>
Have they considered the possibility that American cars suck?
American cars do not suck. They suck rocks and sometimes they suck
green wind, but they never just suck. Just my $0.02.
I drive a Chevrolet, and it does not suck. I've owned Japanese cars
and domestics, and the quality gap is largely a myth, at least as far
as late model cars go.
Consumer reports would say otherwise about reliability.
Guess who I trust?
I learned long ago that the people at Consumer Reports are complete and
total idiots. I have found that the hard way. I keep checking
periodically and yes they are still idiots all these years.
When it comes to the types of products I'm most interested in, they're
totally clueless. They think a $150 Pioneer black box and a $100 pair
of Sony speakers from Best Buy is a "high end stereo." If you believe
for a minute that 20 pound black box can actually turn out an honest
100 watts per channel, you deserve to be stuck with it. <G>
I quite agree. As a matter of fact I couldn't agree more. I have a "high
end" stereo and as for they stuff they claim is "high end", I wouldn't take
for a garage system.
There are very few audio reproduction systems that are worth every penny
and hold their value for many many years. Do you think you will find these
units properly rated? NO! They will be at the bottom of the list as "Too
expensive". CR will offer a Kenwood as a much better buy. Wait 7 years.
See what that Kenwood sells for. The really high end stuff will sell for
more than what you paid for it. I have seen some stuff appreciate so much
that they sell for almost 50 times what the original MSRP was. Not bad for
something that has been around for over 20 years. If you know your high
end gear you know what manufacturer I am referring to.
And don't even get me started on the crap they try to pass off as a
good camera.
You hit that one the nose. CR flaunts pure ignorance and stupidity as
virtues. The Nikon, Leica, etc are just not a good buy according to them.
I was burned a few times believing their *****. Then I learned.
Never again will I take their advice on anything. I do my own reasearch
and pick out what I think is best for the money I plan to spend. I do
great with my choices thanks.
It only took me one time paying far too much for a piece of junk
(crappy computer monitor that CR rated a "Best Buy") to learn that it
isn't a good idea to let people who don't have a clue do your research
for you. Of course, it's my own fault. Given their complete
incompetence re. audio and photo gear, why did I think they'd be any
more on target with the monitor? <G>
We all learn from our mistakes and I made my share by listening to those
goofs.
Reliability? Ask yourself a question. How do they know what the
reliability is for a car? Do they have a magic crystal ball that peers
into the future and warns them that the 2-3 clutch seals that they put
in the transmission will fail after 85,000 miles and it will cost $1500
- $2500 to fix? It is speculation at best. Screw them. I get better
data from other sources and I don't have to pay someone for it either.
I firmly believe that those people just make stuff up as they go along.
How do they rate Blose? I'll bet the Blose products are still rated
quite high. The facts can be summed up as follows: "No highs? No
lows? Gotta be Bose".
Newer Bose products, while still not something I'd buy, do sound much
better than the old 901s, which IMO were one of the most overrated and
overpriced products in the history of hi fi.
The 901s were junk.
Go listen again. The new Bose blows. Not as bad as the 901's but they are
still bad. No highs and no lows. Try reproducing 25 or even 30hz through
their acousti-mass bass unit. Try running a freq response test on their
speakers. Miserable is about the best description I can come up with.
Try the B[l]ose HT speaker system the next time you are in one of the Audio
Video superstores near you. Listen to a sound track that has something
with frequency in it. Birds chirping is a good one and make damn sure the
receiver's equalizer/treble bass adjustment is OFF. Then try the Klipsch
speakers. The Bose will suck so bad in comparison you will wonder how they
sell a single pair.
pierce
.
|
|
|
| User: "Harry F. Leopold" |
|
| Title: Re: OT: How the US fell out of love with its cars |
31 Jan 2006 10:06:52 AM |
|
|
On Mon, 30 Jan 2006 22:58:56 -0600, R. Pierce Butler wrote
(in article <Xns975BE9DA44798mc2500183316chgoill@10.232.1.1>):
snip
And don't even get me started on the crap they try to pass off as a
good camera.
You hit that one the nose. CR flaunts pure ignorance and stupidity as
virtues. The Nikon, Leica, etc are just not a good buy according to them.
I have owned a number of Leica cameras, 111f's (2), one variation of the 111f
that I can't remember at the moment, and the Digilux 1 (second model).
Now I prefer the older film Leicas, but have not owned them in years, but the
Digilux is a pretty darned good replacement, though I would have preferred
the newest version that has removable lens, it would help me in picking the
best lens for the shot, I don't care all that much for zoom. (Mostly because
I do a lot of night photography.)
And Nikon, I have used more Nikon lens, even with the Leicas, than any other
lens. Both companies have products that keep their value.
Years ago I checked the Consumer Reports on bicycles and what they
recommended was nothing but crap, my Raleigh Pro was bottom rated and a cheap
Schinn was top rated. I never looked at CR again.
--
Harry F. Leopold
aa #2076
AA/Vet #4
The Prints of Darkness
(remove gene to email)
³People like me, who cannot think for themselves, are a dime a dozen.³ -
Pastor Dave
.
|
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|
|
| User: "John Baker" |
|
| Title: Re: OT: How the US fell out of love with its cars |
01 Feb 2006 01:37:34 PM |
|
|
On Tue, 31 Jan 2006 04:58:56 GMT, "R. Pierce Butler"
<spamsucks@google.com> wrote:
John Baker <nunya@bizniz.net> wrote in
news:s5ott117gt34t6sg2hhs69lmvtsj2ssjtt@4ax.com:
<snipped for brevity>
Newer Bose products, while still not something I'd buy, do sound much
better than the old 901s, which IMO were one of the most overrated and
overpriced products in the history of hi fi.
The 901s were junk.
Go listen again. The new Bose blows. Not as bad as the 901's but they are
still bad. No highs and no lows. Try reproducing 25 or even 30hz through
their acousti-mass bass unit. Try running a freq response test on their
speakers. Miserable is about the best description I can come up with.
I didn't say they were good. Just better than the 901s. <G>
Try the B[l]ose HT speaker system the next time you are in one of the Audio
Video superstores near you. Listen to a sound track that has something
with frequency in it. Birds chirping is a good one and make damn sure the
receiver's equalizer/treble bass adjustment is OFF. Then try the Klipsch
speakers. The Bose will suck so bad in comparison you will wonder how they
sell a single pair.
I don't doubt that a bit. Bose makes use of psychoacoustics to sell
their junk to the untutored. By boosting the upper bass frequencies
and cutting back the midrange, they create a system that, to an
untrained ear, sounds like it has a much more solid bottom end and
more extended high end than it actually does.
And anyway, I doubt I'd find Klipsch at my local electronics megamart.
<G>
I'm not really concerned with reproducing movie theater sound in my
living room and I don't listen to much pipe organ music, so for my
money a speaker doesn't have to be able to reproduce subsonic
frequencies to be worthy of consideration. For what I listen to most
often, a -3dB point at around 35 or 40 hZ is sufficient. But it *is*
important to me that the speaker be accurate within its frequency
range. That pretty much leaves Bose out.
In my younger days, companies like JBL, Infinity, Polk and Advent all
made speakers that, while hardly comparable to a Wilson WATT/Puppy,
were none the less quite good for the money, at least by 1970s
standards. These days, it seems like there's no such thing as a decent
affordable speaker. Matt Polk seems to be concentrating mainly on home
theater these days (which I have little interest in), JBL and Infinity
haven't produced anything of note since being taken over by
Harman/Kardon, and Advent sold out to Recoton, so you can imagine how
abysmal the speakers bearing that once respected name are now.
<sigh> Oh, to be able to afford a pair of System 7s, or even Talon
Firebirds... but, alas, I'm cursed with the unfortunate combination of
golden ear and tin wallet, so I must make do with what I can. <G>
pierce
.
|
|
|
| User: "stoney" |
|
| Title: Re: OT: How the US fell out of love with its cars |
02 Feb 2006 12:43:15 PM |
|
|
On Wed, 01 Feb 2006 19:37:34 GMT, John Baker <nunya@bizniz.net> wrote in
alt.atheism
On Tue, 31 Jan 2006 04:58:56 GMT, "R. Pierce Butler"
<spamsucks@google.com> wrote:
John Baker <nunya@bizniz.net> wrote in
news:s5ott117gt34t6sg2hhs69lmvtsj2ssjtt@4ax.com:
[]
In my younger days, companies like JBL, Infinity, Polk and Advent all
made speakers that, while hardly comparable to a Wilson WATT/Puppy,
were none the less quite good for the money, at least by 1970s
standards. These days, it seems like there's no such thing as a decent
affordable speaker. Matt Polk seems to be concentrating mainly on home
theater these days (which I have little interest in), JBL and Infinity
haven't produced anything of note since being taken over by
Harman/Kardon, and Advent sold out to Recoton, so you can imagine how
abysmal the speakers bearing that once respected name are now.
<sigh> Oh, to be able to afford a pair of System 7s, or even Talon
Firebirds... but, alas, I'm cursed with the unfortunate combination of
golden ear and tin wallet, so I must make do with what I can. <G>
I'm glad then I've a tin ear and a gossamer wallet.....
--
Fundies and trolls are cordially invited to
shove a wooden cross up their arses and rotate
at a high rate of speed. I trust you'll
be 'blessed' with a cornucopia of splinters.
.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "Chris H. Fleming" |
|
| Title: Re: OT: How the US fell out of love with its cars |
30 Jan 2006 07:57:17 PM |
|
|
R. Pierce Butler wrote:
"Chris H. Fleming" <chris_h_fleming@yahoo.com> wrote in
news:1138615316.803475.108450@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
towelie wrote:
R. Pierce Butler wrote:
"Conspiracy of Doves" <mark_dp73@yahoo.com> wrote in
news:1138591255.074735.212500@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com:
stoney wrote:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,12271,1697518,00.html?gusrc=rs
s
How the US fell out of love with its cars
<snip>
Have they considered the possibility that American cars suck?
American cars do not suck. They suck rocks and sometimes they suck
green wind, but they never just suck. Just my $0.02.
I drive a Chevrolet, and it does not suck. I've owned Japanese cars
and domestics, and the quality gap is largely a myth, at least as far
as late model cars go.
Consumer reports would say otherwise about reliability.
Guess who I trust?
I learned long ago that the people at Consumer Reports are complete and
total idiots. I have found that the hard way. I keep checking
periodically and yes they are still idiots all these years.
I was burned a few times believing their *****. Then I learned. Never
again will I take their advice on anything. I do my own reasearch and pick
out what I think is best for the money I plan to spend. I do great with my
choices thanks.
Reliability? Ask yourself a question. How do they know what the
reliability is for a car? Do they have a magic crystal ball that peers
into the future and warns them that the 2-3 clutch seals that they put in
the transmission will fail after 85,000 miles and it will cost $1500 -
$2500 to fix? It is speculation at best. Screw them. I get better data
from other sources and I don't have to pay someone for it either.
They tell you their methods straight up.
They independently survey their subsribers.
You always make reliablility choices based upon older years of the same
model. If the model is heavily revised between years, then the data
will be incomplete and the magazine will say so.
I firmly believe that those people just make stuff up as they go along.
How do they rate Blose? I'll bet the Blose products are still rated quite
high. The facts can be summed up as follows: "No highs? No lows? Gotta
be Bose".
pierce
.
|
|
|
| User: "R. Pierce Butler" |
|
| Title: Re: OT: How the US fell out of love with its cars |
30 Jan 2006 10:33:18 PM |
|
|
"Chris H. Fleming" <chris_h_fleming@yahoo.com> wrote in
news:1138672637.179094.310690@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com:
R. Pierce Butler wrote:
"Chris H. Fleming" <chris_h_fleming@yahoo.com> wrote in
news:1138615316.803475.108450@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com:
towelie wrote:
R. Pierce Butler wrote:
"Conspiracy of Doves" <mark_dp73@yahoo.com> wrote in
news:1138591255.074735.212500@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com:
stoney wrote:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,12271,1697518,00.html?gusrc
=rs s
How the US fell out of love with its cars
<snip>
Have they considered the possibility that American cars suck?
American cars do not suck. They suck rocks and sometimes they
suck green wind, but they never just suck. Just my $0.02.
I drive a Chevrolet, and it does not suck. I've owned Japanese cars
and domestics, and the quality gap is largely a myth, at least as
far as late model cars go.
Consumer reports would say otherwise about reliability.
Guess who I trust?
I learned long ago that the people at Consumer Reports are complete and
total idiots. I have found that the hard way. I keep checking
periodically and yes they are still idiots all these years.
I was burned a few times believing their *****. Then I learned.
Never again will I take their advice on anything. I do my own
reasearch and pick out what I think is best for the money I plan to
spend. I do great with my choices thanks.
Reliability? Ask yourself a question. How do they know what the
reliability is for a car? Do they have a magic crystal ball that peers
into the future and warns them that the 2-3 clutch seals that they put
in the transmission will fail after 85,000 miles and it will cost $1500
- $2500 to fix? It is speculation at best. Screw them. I get better
data from other sources and I don't have to pay someone for it either.
They tell you their methods straight up.
They independently survey their subsribers.
And that is exactly what is wrong. They deal with perception and not
facts. Sure they try to quantify the data, but the fact of the matter is
that most people are idiots when it comes to cars and wouldn't know an
electrical problem from a bald tire. Customer: "It makes a horrible clunky
noise" Mechanic: "I can see the problem from here. Your tire is flat."
Customer: "hmmm...you really think so?" (:>)
Here is an example of perception vs. fact.
I recently went to a 4 day meeting in Denver to discuss a variety of
topics. One of the topics was the client's network and telecom performance
over the previous 12 months. When that topic came up it became clear that
the perception was that both the Firewall and Proxy devices had repeatedly
caused outages. "These outages are costing money and this issue must be
resolved immediately!" the Director said. I was rather stunned with that
allegation. I calmly asked for a list of all the trouble tickets that had
been opened and were resolved by either the firewall or proxy teams. The
logic being that if the proxy or firewall team didn't fix it, it wasn't a
problem with either device. They agreed to that logic. They produced
their evidence. One ticket had been opened that was fixed by the proxy
team and exactly zero by the firewall team. The ticket was redundant as
the proxy team knew that the server was down and in the process of putting
in the hot spare. Down time? Less than 5 minutes. Our SLA says 4 hours.
The Director, who is a really sharp guy, was furious. He demanded that all
tickets be brought to the table that had the word proxy or firewall in it.
Well, they produced a significant amount of tickets. The stack was rather
large. I suggested that it would take more than a week to properly sort
the stack. I suggested that we take a random sampling of the tickets and
address each one. We agreed to 100 tickets. In ticket after ticket the
issue was either an forgotten password or the workstaion needed to be
rebooted or the employee was being stupid leaving the caps lock on. The
director sat and fumed. After the summary of the tickets was annnouned,
the Director stood up, apologised to me stating that he had grossly
misjudged the firewall and proxy teams. The whole attitude of the meeting
changed from defense and offense to cooperation.
What is the point? There is the difference between perception and fact and
that even the brightest and best can be fooled.
pierce
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| User: "stoney" |
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| Title: Re: OT: How the US fell out of love with its cars |
30 Jan 2006 05:48:12 PM |
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On 29 Jan 2006 19:20:55 -0800, "Conspiracy of Doves"
<mark_dp73@yahoo.com> wrote in alt.atheism
stoney wrote:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,12271,1697518,00.html?gusrc=rss
How the US fell out of love with its cars
<snip>
Have they considered the possibility that American cars suck?
They're better than they were. [shrug]
--
Fundies and trolls are cordially invited to
shove a wooden cross up their arses and rotate
at a high rate of speed. I trust you'll
be 'blessed' with a cornucopia of splinters.
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| User: "John Baker" |
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| Title: Re: OT: How the US fell out of love with its cars |
30 Jan 2006 09:56:52 PM |
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On Mon, 30 Jan 2006 15:48:12 -0800, stoney <stoney@the.net> wrote:
On 29 Jan 2006 19:20:55 -0800, "Conspiracy of Doves"
<mark_dp73@yahoo.com> wrote in alt.atheism
stoney wrote:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,12271,1697518,00.html?gusrc=rss
How the US fell out of love with its cars
<snip>
Have they considered the possibility that American cars suck?
They're better than they were. [shrug]
My American car just hit 201,000 miles. It has never once failed to
start, never once stranded me and never needed any major repairs. It
isn't as much fun as a Porsche or as prestigious as a Lexus, but in
terms of reliability, it performs the basic function of getting me
from point A to point B as well as either of them, and doesn't cost me
an arm and a leg in either fuel or insurance.
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| User: "Tim McGaughy" |
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| Title: Re: OT: How the US fell out of love with its cars |
31 Jan 2006 11:06:28 PM |
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John Baker wrote:
On Mon, 30 Jan 2006 15:48:12 -0800, stoney <stoney@the.net> wrote:
On 29 Jan 2006 19:20:55 -0800, "Conspiracy of Doves"
<mark_dp73@yahoo.com> wrote in alt.atheism
stoney wrote:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,12271,1697518,00.html?gusrc=rss
How the US fell out of love with its cars
<snip>
Have they considered the possibility that American cars suck?
They're better than they were. [shrug]
My American car just hit 201,000 miles. It has never once failed to
start, never once stranded me and never needed any major repairs.
My plymouth volare broke down in this order. A/C compressor, starter,
alternator, water pump, water pump again, transmission. All in the
course of about 2 years.
When the transmission went out, I decided to just abandon the piece of crap.
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