Religions > Atheism > OT: A throwback to the Sixties as protesters board freedom bus and take immigrants' fight for a fairer deal around the US
| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"maff" |
| Date: |
25 Sep 2003 01:47:34 PM |
| Object: |
OT: A throwback to the Sixties as protesters board freedom bus and take immigrants' fight for a fairer deal around the US |
A throwback to the Sixties as protesters board freedom bus and take
immigrants' fight for a fairer deal around the US
http://news.independent.co.uk/world/americas/story.jsp?story=446741
By Andrew Gumbel in Los Angeles
25 September 2003
They came dragging their suitcases behind them - janitors, hotel
housekeepers, garment workers, farm labourers, union organisers and
student leaders. There was a sea of different facial complexions and a
thick stew of accents, dialects and languages.
They wore T-shirts announcing their "million voices for legalisation"
and carried pillows, in preparation for the long journey ahead,
adorned with handwritten slogans espousing justice, equality and mass
mobilisation.
http://forums.delphiforums.com/deconland/messages?msg=927
immigration
http://news.google.com/news?num=100&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&scoring=d&q=immigration&sa=N&tab=gn
http://www.google.com/search?num=100&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&scoring=d&q=immigration&sa=N&tab=nw
http://groups.google.com/groups?num=100&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&scoring=d&q=immigration&sa=N&tab=wg
http://www.google.com/search?num=100&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&scoring=d&q=immigration&sa=N&tab=gd&cat=gwd%2FTop
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| User: "maff" |
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| Title: Re: OT: A throwback to the Sixties as protesters board freedom bus and take immigrants' fight for a fairer deal around the US |
02 Oct 2003 01:38:43 PM |
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(maff) wrote in message news:<18510aff.0309251047.2c1b6308@posting.google.com>...
A throwback to the Sixties as protesters board freedom bus and take
immigrants' fight for a fairer deal around the US
http://news.independent.co.uk/world/americas/story.jsp?story=446741
By Andrew Gumbel in Los Angeles
25 September 2003
They came dragging their suitcases behind them - janitors, hotel
housekeepers, garment workers, farm labourers, union organisers and
student leaders. There was a sea of different facial complexions and a
thick stew of accents, dialects and languages.
They wore T-shirts announcing their "million voices for legalisation"
and carried pillows, in preparation for the long journey ahead,
adorned with handwritten slogans espousing justice, equality and mass
mobilisation.
http://forums.delphiforums.com/deconland/messages?msg=927
immigration
http://news.google.com/news?num=100&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&scoring=d&q=immigration&sa=N&tab=gn
http://www.google.com/search?num=100&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&scoring=d&q=immigration&sa=N&tab=nw
http://groups.google.com/groups?num=100&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&scoring=d&q=immigration&sa=N&tab=wg
http://www.google.com/search?num=100&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&scoring=d&q=immigration&sa=N&tab=gd&cat=gwd%2FTop
Immigrants in Our Politics
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A30700-2003Oct1.html
By Harold Meyerson, Page A23
"Being a foreigner, being an immigrant," Elia Kazan, the great
Turkish-born, Anatolian Greek director who died this week, once mused.
"I mean, I wasn't in the society. I was rebellious against it."
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| User: "maff" |
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| Title: Re: OT: A throwback to the Sixties as protesters board freedom bus and take immigrants' fight for a fairer deal around the US |
03 Oct 2003 01:46:55 PM |
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(maff) wrote in message news:<18510aff.0310021038.5a704bf8@posting.google.com>...
(maff) wrote in message news:<18510aff.0309251047.2c1b6308@posting.google.com>...
A throwback to the Sixties as protesters board freedom bus and take
immigrants' fight for a fairer deal around the US
http://news.independent.co.uk/world/americas/story.jsp?story=446741
By Andrew Gumbel in Los Angeles
25 September 2003
They came dragging their suitcases behind them - janitors, hotel
housekeepers, garment workers, farm labourers, union organisers and
student leaders. There was a sea of different facial complexions and a
thick stew of accents, dialects and languages.
They wore T-shirts announcing their "million voices for legalisation"
and carried pillows, in preparation for the long journey ahead,
adorned with handwritten slogans espousing justice, equality and mass
mobilisation.
http://forums.delphiforums.com/deconland/messages?msg=927
immigration
http://news.google.com/news?num=100&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&scoring=d&q=immigration&sa=N&tab=gn
http://www.google.com/search?num=100&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&scoring=d&q=immigration&sa=N&tab=nw
http://groups.google.com/groups?num=100&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&scoring=d&q=immigration&sa=N&tab=wg
http://www.google.com/search?num=100&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&scoring=d&q=immigration&sa=N&tab=gd&cat=gwd%2FTop
Immigrants in Our Politics
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A30700-2003Oct1.html
By Harold Meyerson, Page A23
"Being a foreigner, being an immigrant," Elia Kazan, the great
Turkish-born, Anatolian Greek director who died this week, once mused.
"I mean, I wasn't in the society. I was rebellious against it."
Small-Scale Immigration Reform
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A37483-2003Oct2.html
By Marcela Sanchez, Page A23
Just days before Sept. 11, 2001, President Bush was committed to
significantly overhauling the current immigration system -- a system
so broken that millions enter this country without a trace in a risky
run across the border and then work without permits and basic
workplace protections.
Marcela Sanchez
http://news.google.com/news?num=100&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&scoring=d&q=+%22Marcela+Sanchez%22&sa=N&tab=gn
http://www.google.com/search?num=100&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&scoring=d&q=+%22Marcela+Sanchez%22&sa=N&tab=nw
http://groups.google.com/groups?num=100&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&scoring=d&q=+%22Marcela+Sanchez%22&sa=N&tab=wg
http://www.google.com/search?num=100&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&scoring=d&q=+%22Marcela+Sanchez%22&sa=N&tab=gd&cat=gwd%2FTop
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| User: "Fear gan dia" |
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| Title: Re: OT: A throwback to the Sixties as protesters board freedom bus and take immigrants' fight for a fairer deal around the US |
25 Sep 2003 05:52:11 PM |
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Verily verily I say unto you, it is written by (maff)
in <18510aff.0309251047.2c1b6308@posting.google.com>:
# A throwback to the Sixties as protesters board freedom bus and take
# immigrants' fight for a fairer deal around the US
# http://news.independent.co.uk/world/americas/story.jsp?story=446741
# By Andrew Gumbel in Los Angeles
# 25 September 2003
#
#
# They came dragging their suitcases behind them - janitors, hotel
# housekeepers, garment workers, farm labourers, union organisers and
# student leaders. There was a sea of different facial complexions and a
# thick stew of accents, dialects and languages.
#
# They wore T-shirts announcing their "million voices for legalisation"
# and carried pillows, in preparation for the long journey ahead,
# adorned with handwritten slogans espousing justice, equality and mass
# mobilisation.
I'm sorry but I don't think there is any moral equivalence
between the freedom riders of the sixties, who were
protesting an outrageous system of racism, and the "let's
hand out green cards like confetti" brigade. I came to the
US the hard way - legally. I did everything by the book,
and spent thousands of dollars in fees and six years of my
life in a Kafkaesque bureaucratic nightmare so that I could
get a green card to come and live with my US citizen wife.
The main reason for the delay was millions of illegal aliens
cutting in line ahead of me.
If people want to live in the US, get drivers' license,
collect welfare, pay in-state college tuition and all
the other privileges they are demanding, let them wait
their turn and obey the law like everyone else has to.
By all means let's have some kind of temporary guest
worker program, since there is obviously a demand for
Mexican labor and a limitless supply. But it's stupid
to say that unskilled, uneducated, illiterate campesinos
are more important to the economy than highly-educated
software engineers who are often treated far worse by
the government. Unfortunately once the race card gets
played, rational discussion on the issue becomes impossible.
--
Fear gan dia ### http://goddamliberal.blogspot.com
Director, EAC Division for Leaving the Toilet Seat up.
-No God for Ireland! he cried. We have had too much
God in Ireland. Away with God!
-James Joyce, _A Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man_
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| User: "Dr DuFunny" |
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| Title: Re: OT: A throwback to the Sixties as protesters board freedom bus and take immigrants' fight for a fairer deal around the US |
25 Sep 2003 07:16:13 PM |
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"Fear gan dia" <tssbhblnrlhlh@hqqbnsrbdntx.com> wrote in message
news:3f73719b.002@hqqbnsrbdntx.com...
Verily verily I say unto you, it is written by (maff)
in <18510aff.0309251047.2c1b6308@posting.google.com>:
# A throwback to the Sixties as protesters board freedom bus and take
# immigrants' fight for a fairer deal around the US
# http://news.independent.co.uk/world/americas/story.jsp?story=446741
# By Andrew Gumbel in Los Angeles
# 25 September 2003
#
#
# They came dragging their suitcases behind them - janitors, hotel
# housekeepers, garment workers, farm labourers, union organisers and
# student leaders. There was a sea of different facial complexions and a
# thick stew of accents, dialects and languages.
#
# They wore T-shirts announcing their "million voices for legalisation"
# and carried pillows, in preparation for the long journey ahead,
# adorned with handwritten slogans espousing justice, equality and mass
# mobilisation.
I'm sorry but I don't think there is any moral equivalence
between the freedom riders of the sixties, who were
protesting an outrageous system of racism, and the "let's
hand out green cards like confetti" brigade. I came to the
US the hard way - legally. I did everything by the book,
and spent thousands of dollars in fees and six years of my
life in a Kafkaesque bureaucratic nightmare so that I could
get a green card to come and live with my US citizen wife.
The main reason for the delay was millions of illegal aliens
cutting in line ahead of me.
If people want to live in the US, get drivers' license,
collect welfare, pay in-state college tuition and all
the other privileges they are demanding, let them wait
their turn and obey the law like everyone else has to.
By all means let's have some kind of temporary guest
worker program, since there is obviously a demand for
Mexican labor and a limitless supply. But it's stupid
to say that unskilled, uneducated, illiterate campesinos
are more important to the economy than highly-educated
software engineers who are often treated far worse by
the government. Unfortunately once the race card gets
played, rational discussion on the issue becomes impossible.
--
Fear gan dia ### http://goddamliberal.blogspot.com
Director, EAC Division for Leaving the Toilet Seat up.
-No God for Ireland! he cried. We have had too much
God in Ireland. Away with God!
-James Joyce, _A Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man_
Man, like I don't agree. The U.S. has no right to keep people out of the
country unless they mean to do harm, like invade and and be violent.
especially considering the denizens of the same Western Hemisphere, who are
being held in servitude due to racism and for economic exploitation. These
people are also Americans, and Spanish is an American language, and
inevitably they will be in the majority. Once a country becomes the dominant
world power, the Historical trend is gradual encirclement and harrassment
by other would-be pwoerful countries. The u.S. is in an historically unique
position of potentially escaping form that fate due to the geographic
isolation, if only it forges a unity with the bordering countries. that
means North and Central America must eventually become at least a
confederation, if the U.S. is to remain the World's most powerful nation
into the indefinite future.
--
"Everything's better with DuFunny on it."
.
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| User: "stillsunny" |
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| Title: Re: OT: A throwback to the Sixties as protesters board freedom bus and take immigrants' fight for a fairer deal around the US |
30 Sep 2003 06:07:59 PM |
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"Dr DuFunny" <accordiondoc@mindsproing.cop> wrote in message news:<hzLcb.4143$NX3.687@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net>...
"Fear gan dia" <tssbhblnrlhlh@hqqbnsrbdntx.com> wrote in message
news:3f73719b.002@hqqbnsrbdntx.com...
Verily verily I say unto you, it is written by (maff)
in <18510aff.0309251047.2c1b6308@posting.google.com>:
# A throwback to the Sixties as protesters board freedom bus and take
# immigrants' fight for a fairer deal around the US
# http://news.independent.co.uk/world/americas/story.jsp?story=446741
# By Andrew Gumbel in Los Angeles
# 25 September 2003
#
#
# They came dragging their suitcases behind them - janitors, hotel
# housekeepers, garment workers, farm labourers, union organisers and
# student leaders. There was a sea of different facial complexions and a
# thick stew of accents, dialects and languages.
#
# They wore T-shirts announcing their "million voices for legalisation"
# and carried pillows, in preparation for the long journey ahead,
# adorned with handwritten slogans espousing justice, equality and mass
# mobilisation.
I'm sorry but I don't think there is any moral equivalence
between the freedom riders of the sixties, who were
protesting an outrageous system of racism, and the "let's
hand out green cards like confetti" brigade. I came to the
US the hard way - legally. <...>But it's stupid
to say that unskilled, uneducated, illiterate campesinos
are more important to the economy than highly-educated
software engineers who are often treated far worse by
the government. Unfortunately once the race card gets
played, rational discussion on the issue becomes impossible.
--
Fear gan dia ### http://goddamliberal.blogspot.com
Director, EAC Division for Leaving the Toilet Seat up.
-No God for Ireland! he cried. We have had too much
God in Ireland. Away with God!
-James Joyce, _A Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man_
Man, like I don't agree. The U.S. has no right to keep people out of the
country unless they mean to do harm, like invade and and be violent.
Leaving aside the question of how anybody would *know* what a
potential immigrant would plan to do, the plain truth is that yes, the
US does have the right, just like any other sovereign state, to
determine who they will or won't let in the country, and how many of
them. It is not a matter, finally, of wanting to *deny* something to
anyone; it's a pragmatic realization that unchecked immigration places
increasing burdens on the physical, economic and social infrastructure
of any geographic location. If the burden gets too great, it causes a
lot of other, larger, and more difficult to address subsequent
problems -- poverty, crime, health issues, even water, roads, school
overcrowding.
Controlling immigration falls under ensuring domestic tranquility and
promoting the general welfare. It's completely within the reasonable
parameters of what a government may do.
Sunny
.
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| User: "johac" |
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| Title: Re: OT: A throwback to the Sixties as protesters board freedom bus and take immigrants' fight for a fairer deal around the US |
01 Oct 2003 12:55:20 AM |
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In article <c472f5b5.0309301507.5ffd59cf@posting.google.com>,
(stillsunny) wrote:
"Dr DuFunny" <accordiondoc@mindsproing.cop> wrote in message
news:<hzLcb.4143$NX3.687@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net>...
"Fear gan dia" <tssbhblnrlhlh@hqqbnsrbdntx.com> wrote in message
news:3f73719b.002@hqqbnsrbdntx.com...
Verily verily I say unto you, it is written by (maff)
in <18510aff.0309251047.2c1b6308@posting.google.com>:
<snip some>
Man, like I don't agree. The U.S. has no right to keep people out of the
country unless they mean to do harm, like invade and and be violent.
Leaving aside the question of how anybody would *know* what a
potential immigrant would plan to do, the plain truth is that yes, the
US does have the right, just like any other sovereign state, to
determine who they will or won't let in the country, and how many of
them. It is not a matter, finally, of wanting to *deny* something to
anyone; it's a pragmatic realization that unchecked immigration places
increasing burdens on the physical, economic and social infrastructure
of any geographic location. If the burden gets too great, it causes a
lot of other, larger, and more difficult to address subsequent
problems -- poverty, crime, health issues, even water, roads, school
overcrowding.
Controlling immigration falls under ensuring domestic tranquility and
promoting the general welfare. It's completely within the reasonable
parameters of what a government may do.
I agree, Sunny, as long as the system is fair and no group is
discriminated agaist for arbitrary reasons.
Sunny
--
John Hachmann, aa #1782
Pierre Laplace, when asked by Napoleon on why he made
no mention of a god in his book on astronomy: "Sire,
I have no need of that hypothesis."
.
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| User: "stillsunny" |
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| Title: Re: OT: A throwback to the Sixties as protesters board freedom bus and take immigrants' fight for a fairer deal around the US |
01 Oct 2003 08:41:13 AM |
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johac <jhachm@remove.ixpres.com> wrote in message news:<jhachm-AB65B5.22552030092003@central.giganews.com>...
In article <c472f5b5.0309301507.5ffd59cf@posting.google.com>,
stillsunny1@yahoo.com (stillsunny) wrote:
<snip some>
<snip more>
Controlling immigration falls under ensuring domestic tranquility and
promoting the general welfare. It's completely within the reasonable
parameters of what a government may do.
I agree, Sunny, as long as the system is fair and no group is
discriminated agaist for arbitrary reasons.
Hm.
That sounds good, but I don't know how it can be other than somewhat
arbitrary. It's a best guess sort of thing, based on whatever the
current national interests are. I understand what you're saying, but
it's just plain tricky, and there are always going to be those who
think it's not fair.
I think the issue in this case is, what obligations does the US have
to those who are in its borders, whether they're legal or illegal.
It's a very, very tough issue -- who would want to deny that which we
take for granted to someone else just because they don't have the
right paperwork? I don't, and it gets really sticky when you start
talking about medical issues. On the other hand, there's a limit
somewhere to what a give society can *afford* to provide, and there's
also the very real problem that, the more that is supplied, the
greater the incentive for others to also cross illegally, further
straining the system.
Truth is, I really don't have an immediate answer. I have nothing but
respect and empathy for those who are willing to risk so much to go to
a country where they can't speak the language, do the worst jobs, and
live in conditions I'd find deplorable, just to support those they
love. On the other hand, the "bad guys" are as likely to come as the
"good guys," and even a sufficient number of the good guys are going
to overwhelm the very prosperity of the system which brought them here
in the first place.
Nothing's easy, but it does seem that a pragmatic approach would
include helping, say, Mexico become more economically prosperous.
What I *don't* want to see happen is a continued turning a blind eye
to those who cross illegally, because we want their cheap labor.
Seems a great way to create a permanent underclass.
Sunny
.
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| User: "johac" |
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| Title: Re: OT: A throwback to the Sixties as protesters board freedom bus and take immigrants' fight for a fairer deal around the US |
02 Oct 2003 12:53:06 AM |
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In article <c472f5b5.0310010541.52bdfbe0@posting.google.com>,
(stillsunny) wrote:
johac <jhachm@remove.ixpres.com> wrote in message
news:<jhachm-AB65B5.22552030092003@central.giganews.com>...
In article <c472f5b5.0309301507.5ffd59cf@posting.google.com>,
(stillsunny) wrote:
<snip some>
<snip more>
Controlling immigration falls under ensuring domestic tranquility and
promoting the general welfare. It's completely within the reasonable
parameters of what a government may do.
I agree, Sunny, as long as the system is fair and no group is
discriminated agaist for arbitrary reasons.
Hm.
That sounds good, but I don't know how it can be other than somewhat
arbitrary. It's a best guess sort of thing, based on whatever the
current national interests are. I understand what you're saying, but
it's just plain tricky, and there are always going to be those who
think it's not fair.
I think the issue in this case is, what obligations does the US have
to those who are in its borders, whether they're legal or illegal.
It's a very, very tough issue -- who would want to deny that which we
take for granted to someone else just because they don't have the
right paperwork? I don't, and it gets really sticky when you start
talking about medical issues. On the other hand, there's a limit
somewhere to what a give society can *afford* to provide, and there's
also the very real problem that, the more that is supplied, the
greater the incentive for others to also cross illegally, further
straining the system.
Truth is, I really don't have an immediate answer. I have nothing but
respect and empathy for those who are willing to risk so much to go to
a country where they can't speak the language, do the worst jobs, and
live in conditions I'd find deplorable, just to support those they
love. On the other hand, the "bad guys" are as likely to come as the
"good guys," and even a sufficient number of the good guys are going
to overwhelm the very prosperity of the system which brought them here
in the first place.
Nothing's easy, but it does seem that a pragmatic approach would
include helping, say, Mexico become more economically prosperous.
What I *don't* want to see happen is a continued turning a blind eye
to those who cross illegally, because we want their cheap labor.
Seems a great way to create a permanent underclass.
This is precisely the problem in California. Many complain about the
'illegal' Mexican immigrants. Yet it has been also said that, and is
probably true, that California's economy would collapse with out them.
They are exploited and many live in miserable conditions. Very few
have health care. Many bring their families with them and have all of
the needs that families have such as schooling for the kids.
In these hard times, since they often pay no taxes, no social
security, they are a drain on the system. However, even if it were
possible, could we afford to send them all back? Who would pick the
lettuce and other crops. Who would do the hard jobs at construction
sites. Who would be the maids at hotels and the janitors? We might be
able to get some American citizens to do these jobs, but we would have
to pay them a lot more with the resulting effects on the economy.
Perhaps we need some sort of a guest worker program. Something similar
to the 'Bracero' program during WW2. Work permits, or temporary visas
would be issued to those who would come to work. They would be valid
for a certain length of time. During that time, the workers would have
unrestricted cross border travel rights. This would avoid one reason
shy many bring their families with them. They are afraid that if they
leave them behind, if they visit, they may not get back, under the
present laws.
This would allow them to register and be protected by the government.
They would also enjoy certain limited benefits. At the end of their
permit, they would have to leave the country and reapply.
This would require a good deal of enforcement, but it is possible that
the costs might be offset by the benefits. If one of the workers were
involved in illegal activity, the person would be deported immediately
and barred from future employment here. The same would apply to anyone
found entering the country illegally. This would allow more control
over the situation.
I don't know if such a scheme would work, but it might be worth a try.
Sunny
--
John Hachmann, aa #1782
Pierre Laplace, when asked by Napoleon on why he made
no mention of a god in his book on astronomy: "Sire,
I have no need of that hypothesis."
.
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| User: "Al Klein" |
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| Title: Re: OT: A throwback to the Sixties as protesters board freedom bus and take immigrants' fight for a fairer deal around the US |
28 Sep 2003 08:18:54 PM |
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On Fri, 26 Sep 2003 00:16:13 GMT, "Dr DuFunny"
<accordiondoc@mindsproing.cop> posted in alt.atheism:
Man, like I don't agree. The U.S. has no right to keep people out of the
country
Of course it has. No nation is under any obligation to maintain open
borders. No country DOES maintain open borders.
--
"I don't try to imagine a God; it suffices to stand in awe of the structure of the world
insofar as it allows our inadequate senses to appreciate it."
- Letter to S. Flesch, April 16, 1954; Einstein Archive 30-1154
(random sig, produced by SigChanger)
rukbat at optonline dot net
.
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| User: "Dr DuFunny" |
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| Title: Re: OT: A throwback to the Sixties as protesters board freedom bus and take immigrants' fight for a fairer deal around the US |
29 Sep 2003 05:41:40 PM |
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"Al Klein" <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote in message
news:l22fnvs7n7e7timbe0h6l2l0b4mjnc7u4n@Pern.rk...
On Fri, 26 Sep 2003 00:16:13 GMT, "Dr DuFunny"
<accordiondoc@mindsproing.cop> posted in alt.atheism:
Man, like I don't agree. The U.S. has no right to keep people out of the
country
Of course it has. No nation is under any obligation to maintain open
borders. No country DOES maintain open borders.
Who said open borders? The U.S. doesn't exist in a vacuum. Yet political
factions want to keep parts of it lily-white.
--
"I don't try to imagine a God; it suffices to stand in awe of the
structure of the world
insofar as it allows our inadequate senses to appreciate it."
- Letter to S. Flesch, April 16, 1954; Einstein Archive 30-1154
(random sig, produced by SigChanger)
rukbat at optonline dot net
.
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| User: "Al Klein" |
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| Title: Re: OT: A throwback to the Sixties as protesters board freedom bus and take immigrants' fight for a fairer deal around the US |
29 Sep 2003 09:19:54 PM |
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On Mon, 29 Sep 2003 22:41:40 GMT, "Dr DuFunny"
<accordiondoc@mindsproing.cop> posted in alt.atheism:
"Al Klein" <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote in message
news:l22fnvs7n7e7timbe0h6l2l0b4mjnc7u4n@Pern.rk...
On Fri, 26 Sep 2003 00:16:13 GMT, "Dr DuFunny"
<accordiondoc@mindsproing.cop> posted in alt.atheism:
Man, like I don't agree. The U.S. has no right to keep people out of the
country
Of course it has. No nation is under any obligation to maintain open
borders. No country DOES maintain open borders.
Who said open borders? The U.S. doesn't exist in a vacuum. Yet political
factions want to keep parts of it lily-white.
And some of us just want people to obey the law.
--
"So much blood has been shed by the Church because of an omission from the Gospel: "Ye
shall be indifferent as to what your neighbor's religion is." Not merely tolerant of it,
but indifferent to it. Divinity is claimed for many religions; but no religion is great
enough or divine enough to add that new law to its code."
- Mark Twain, a Biography
(random sig, produced by SigChanger)
rukbat at optonline dot net
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| User: "Dr. DuFonet" |
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| Title: Re: OT: A throwback to the Sixties as protesters board freedom bus and take immigrants' fight for a fairer deal around the US |
01 Oct 2003 06:34:12 AM |
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"Al Klein" <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote in message
news:a1qhnvkrr7o5qmgl8ok70c95as4qsb2cdd@Pern.rk...
On Mon, 29 Sep 2003 22:41:40 GMT, "Dr DuFunny"
<accordiondoc@mindsproing.cop> posted in alt.atheism:
"Al Klein" <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote in message
news:l22fnvs7n7e7timbe0h6l2l0b4mjnc7u4n@Pern.rk...
On Fri, 26 Sep 2003 00:16:13 GMT, "Dr DuFunny"
<accordiondoc@mindsproing.cop> posted in alt.atheism:
Man, like I don't agree. The U.S. has no right to keep people out of
the
country
Of course it has. No nation is under any obligation to maintain open
borders. No country DOES maintain open borders.
Who said open borders? The U.S. doesn't exist in a vacuum. Yet
political
factions want to keep parts of it lily-white.
And some of us just want people to obey the law.
Even the people who are supposed to enforce it don't obey it. What do you
think it is, Holy Writ?
--
:"Everythin's better with DoFunny on it."
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| User: "Mike Painter" |
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| Title: Re: OT: A throwback to the Sixties as protesters board freedom bus and take immigrants' fight for a fairer deal around the US |
30 Sep 2003 03:16:38 PM |
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"Al Klein" <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote in message
news:a1qhnvkrr7o5qmgl8ok70c95as4qsb2cdd@Pern.rk...
On Mon, 29 Sep 2003 22:41:40 GMT, "Dr DuFunny"
<accordiondoc@mindsproing.cop> posted in alt.atheism:
"Al Klein" <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote in message
news:l22fnvs7n7e7timbe0h6l2l0b4mjnc7u4n@Pern.rk...
On Fri, 26 Sep 2003 00:16:13 GMT, "Dr DuFunny"
<accordiondoc@mindsproing.cop> posted in alt.atheism:
Man, like I don't agree. The U.S. has no right to keep people out of
the
country
Of course it has. No nation is under any obligation to maintain open
borders. No country DOES maintain open borders.
Who said open borders? The U.S. doesn't exist in a vacuum. Yet
political
factions want to keep parts of it lily-white.
And some of us just want people to obey the law.
For most it's:
And some of us just want people to obey some of the law as long as it does
not cost a lot.
Around here keeping people out means keeping out the illegal Mexican
farmworker.
It's hard to tell them apart. They all hit the fields at daylight, and
return at dark.
They all get paid substandard wages. If illegal they might be getting ripped
off by their agent who has a bunch of social security cards in his pocket
and lives in a big expensive house. But that does not show.
The illegals tend to live in shacks (literally, ceiling caving in, walls
leaning and holes in the plywood floors - oddly enough once you get past
the initial shock you see the place is clean.)
They all send money home and they all bring in more than they cost for
education and low cost medical assistance.
It would be easy to get rid of them. Hit the guy that hires them, but that
would raise the cost of the food you eat by a good bit.
They are my neighbors, they take care of me, I take care of them and they
are welcome.
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| User: "Al Klein" |
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| Title: Re: OT: A throwback to the Sixties as protesters board freedom bus and take immigrants' fight for a fairer deal around the US |
30 Sep 2003 09:51:36 PM |
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On Tue, 30 Sep 2003 20:16:38 GMT, "Mike Painter" <mdotpainter@att.net>
posted in alt.atheism:
"Al Klein" <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote in message
news:a1qhnvkrr7o5qmgl8ok70c95as4qsb2cdd@Pern.rk...
On Mon, 29 Sep 2003 22:41:40 GMT, "Dr DuFunny"
<accordiondoc@mindsproing.cop> posted in alt.atheism:
Who said open borders? The U.S. doesn't exist in a vacuum. Yet olitical
factions want to keep parts of it lily-white.
And some of us just want people to obey the law.
For most it's:
And some of us just want people to obey some of the law as long as it does
not cost a lot.
I happen to live about 5 minutes from one of the worst current
situations of this type - Farmingville, Long Island. Most of those
protesting the illegal aliens have valid issues:
The streets being used as toilets.
So many people in the 7-11 parking lot that it's almost impossible to
park - and that ignores the fact that most of the women are terrified
of those massing there. (An 18-year-old illegal was beaten nearly to
death Sunday, by members of a rival illegal alien gang. I'm guessing
that he won't make it.
http://www.newsday.com/mynews/ny-libeat303475016sep30,0,290629.story)
Single family houses are being rented to 20-30 men. This hurts
housing prices.
There are many other issues. Legitimate issues that have nothing to
do with skin color or place of origin.
Around here keeping people out means keeping out the illegal Mexican
farmworker.
Around here, keeping people out means keeping people who violate the
law out.
They all send money home and they all bring in more than they cost for
education and low cost medical assistance.
They "bring in" nothing - aside from the absolute minimum they can
live on, the money goes out of the country. And they get free medical
care - free to them, not to the taxpayers. (Read the article - do you
know what it costs for an air ambulance? No one asked if he had
insurance - he was airlifted to the best hospital in the area.)
It would be easy to get rid of them. Hit the guy that hires them, but that
would raise the cost of the food you eat by a good bit.
It would be even easier - have the INS do their job.
They are my neighbors, they take care of me, I take care of them and they
are welcome.
In my case, they're the ones who run across a 55 MPH street in the
middle of the block, making my trips hazardous. They're the ones
lowering housing values close enough to me to eventually affect the
values of my house. They're the ones who entered this country
illegally, not like tens of thousands of others who went through the
proper channels, even though they had a lot more reason to come here
than "I want to make more money, but I don't give a damn about the
laws of the country I want to live in".
--
"If we really know Truth, we do not fear hearing falsehoods or half-truths; if we are not sure of the truth - we shudder and try to shout down every utterance." - A. J. Mims
(random sig, produced by SigChanger)
rukbat at optonline dot net
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| User: "Mike Painter" |
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| Title: Re: OT: A throwback to the Sixties as protesters board freedom bus and take immigrants' fight for a fairer deal around the US |
30 Sep 2003 11:17:58 PM |
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"Al Klein" <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote in message
news:0ueknvsm4lsdencutl7ngcd0clpe5qa4h5@Pern.rk...
On Tue, 30 Sep 2003 20:16:38 GMT, "Mike Painter" <mdotpainter@att.net>
posted in alt.atheism:
"Al Klein" <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote in message
news:a1qhnvkrr7o5qmgl8ok70c95as4qsb2cdd@Pern.rk...
On Mon, 29 Sep 2003 22:41:40 GMT, "Dr DuFunny"
<accordiondoc@mindsproing.cop> posted in alt.atheism:
Who said open borders? The U.S. doesn't exist in a vacuum. Yet
olitical
factions want to keep parts of it lily-white.
And some of us just want people to obey the law.
For most it's:
And some of us just want people to obey some of the law as long as it
does
not cost a lot.
I happen to live about 5 minutes from one of the worst current
situations of this type - Farmingville, Long Island. Most of those
protesting the illegal aliens have valid issues:
The streets being used as toilets.
And the bathrooms are?
So many people in the 7-11 parking lot that it's almost impossible to
park - and that ignores the fact that most of the women are terrified
of those massing there. (An 18-year-old illegal was beaten nearly to
death Sunday, by members of a rival illegal alien gang. I'm guessing
that he won't make it.
I'm guessing that if you drive by in a van they wave at you. They are
looking for work. They are the same as the people who came to California to
pick crops and the same method is used to keep costs down.
http://www.newsday.com/mynews/ny-libeat303475016sep30,0,290629.story)
Single family houses are being rented to 20-30 men. This hurts
housing prices.
Yes indeed. It's because they don't make enough money to rent decent
buildings.
There are many other issues. Legitimate issues that have nothing to
do with skin color or place of origin.
Around here keeping people out means keeping out the illegal Mexican
farmworker.
Around here, keeping people out means keeping people who violate the
law out.
Then get rid of the people who hire them. If they don't work they will
leave.
How many employeers have been charged in your area lately. Those are the
guiys with the big houses who complain about loosing money because they
didn't get a subsidy.
If you don't know ask what the difference between welfare and parity is.
Their red face will let you know.
They all send money home and they all bring in more than they cost for
education and low cost medical assistance.
They "bring in" nothing - aside from the absolute minimum they can
live on, the money goes out of the country. And they get free medical
care - free to them, not to the taxpayers. (Read the article - do you
know what it costs for an air ambulance? No one asked if he had
insurance - he was airlifted to the best hospital in the area.)
Yes I do. I ride on a big red truck and usually am one of the first on
scene.
*Nobody* is ever refused such treatment. Money hardly matters anymore since
without insurance few can handle such costs.
However all studies show they pay more in taxes than tey use and they do
spend a lot of money here. This very small town (less than 1000) has three
markets and two gas station/ markets. Chances are there would be the ones on
the high way if the migrant was not here.
It would be easy to get rid of them. Hit the guy that hires them, but
that
would raise the cost of the food you eat by a good bit.
It would be even easier - have the INS do their job.
Pay them, hire them. Double or tripple the price on anything that comes off
a farm to get the money.
Or let them go after the users.
They are my neighbors, they take care of me, I take care of them and they
are welcome.
In my case, they're the ones who run across a 55 MPH street in the
middle of the block, making my trips hazardous. They're the ones
lowering housing values close enough to me to eventually affect the
values of my house. They're the ones who entered this country
illegally, not like tens of thousands of others who went through the
proper channels, even though they had a lot more reason to come here
than "I want to make more money, but I don't give a damn about the
laws of the country I want to live in".
--
.
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| User: "Al Klein" |
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| Title: Re: OT: A throwback to the Sixties as protesters board freedom bus and take immigrants' fight for a fairer deal around the US |
01 Oct 2003 09:02:31 PM |
|
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On Wed, 01 Oct 2003 04:17:58 GMT, "Mike Painter" <mdotpainter@att.net>
posted in alt.atheism:
"Al Klein" <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote in message
news:0ueknvsm4lsdencutl7ngcd0clpe5qa4h5@Pern.rk...
I happen to live about 5 minutes from one of the worst current
situations of this type - Farmingville, Long Island. Most of those
protesting the illegal aliens have valid issues:
The streets being used as toilets.
And the bathrooms are?
Not near where they congregate.
So many people in the 7-11 parking lot that it's almost impossible to
park - and that ignores the fact that most of the women are terrified
of those massing there. (An 18-year-old illegal was beaten nearly to
death Sunday, by members of a rival illegal alien gang. I'm guessing
that he won't make it.
I'm guessing that if you drive by in a van they wave at you. They are
looking for work.
They're violating the law.
http://www.newsday.com/mynews/ny-libeat303475016sep30,0,290629.story)
Single family houses are being rented to 20-30 men. This hurts
housing prices.
Yes indeed. It's because they don't make enough money to rent decent
buildings.
No, it's because there were gang rivalries in Mexico that they brought
here with them.
Around here, keeping people out means keeping people who violate the
law out.
Then get rid of the people who hire them. If they don't work they will
leave.
Sorry, but just because A is violating the law, it doesn't mean that
B's more serious violation is negated.
How many employeers have been charged in your area lately.
The INS doesn't do anything. Against the employers or against the
illegal aliens.
Those are the
guiys with the big houses who complain about loosing money because they
didn't get a subsidy.
No, they're the guys with the little 1-man businesses who are hiring
illegal aliens for a few bucks a day less than people here legally
would get. We don't have many illegal migrant farm workers here.
They all send money home and they all bring in more than they cost for
education and low cost medical assistance.
They "bring in" nothing - aside from the absolute minimum they can
live on, the money goes out of the country. And they get free medical
care - free to them, not to the taxpayers. (Read the article - do you
know what it costs for an air ambulance? No one asked if he had
insurance - he was airlifted to the best hospital in the area.)
Yes I do. I ride on a big red truck and usually am one of the first on
scene.
*Nobody* is ever refused such treatment. Money hardly matters anymore since
without insurance few can handle such costs.
So much for the claim that they "bring in" more than they cost.
However all studies show they pay more in taxes
They pay NO taxes at all. Not around here.
than tey use and they do
spend a lot of money here. This very small town (less than 1000) has three
markets and two gas station/ markets. Chances are there would be the ones on
the high way if the migrant was not here.
Not here.
It would be easy to get rid of them. Hit the guy that hires them, but that
would raise the cost of the food you eat by a good bit.
It would be even easier - have the INS do their job.
Pay them, hire them. Double or tripple the price on anything that comes off
a farm to get the money.
Your area, not here. They don't work on farms here. And if prices
went up if they were deported, the residents of Farmingville would
probably be glad to pay.
--
"To surrender to ignorance and call it God has always been premature, and it remains
premature today."
- Isaac Asimov
(random sig, produced by SigChanger)
rukbat at optonline dot net
.
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| User: "Mike Painter" |
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| Title: Re: OT: A throwback to the Sixties as protesters board freedom bus and take immigrants' fight for a fairer deal around the US |
02 Oct 2003 03:44:51 PM |
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"Al Klein" <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote in message
news:kh0nnvcd51lrqukmj6k6280o7ccvtll7hc@Pern.rk...
On Wed, 01 Oct 2003 04:17:58 GMT, "Mike Painter" <mdotpainter@att.net>
posted in alt.atheism:
"Al Klein" <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote in message
news:0ueknvsm4lsdencutl7ngcd0clpe5qa4h5@Pern.rk...
I happen to live about 5 minutes from one of the worst current
situations of this type - Farmingville, Long Island. Most of those
protesting the illegal aliens have valid issues:
The streets being used as toilets.
And the bathrooms are?
Not near where they congregate.
So many people in the 7-11 parking lot that it's almost impossible to
park - and that ignores the fact that most of the women are terrified
of those massing there. (An 18-year-old illegal was beaten nearly to
death Sunday, by members of a rival illegal alien gang. I'm guessing
that he won't make it.
I'm guessing that if you drive by in a van they wave at you. They are
looking for work.
They're violating the law.
And probably are not being arrested because if they are the law will be
found unconstitutional as all laws that try to keep people from standing
around trying to work for their family have been.
In the 30's they kept them in camps and used brute force to keep them in
their place. Of course in the 30's it was the grand parents and great
grandparents of a lot of Californians.
http://www.newsday.com/mynews/ny-libeat303475016sep30,0,290629.story)
Single family houses are being rented to 20-30 men. This hurts
housing prices.
Yes indeed. It's because they don't make enough money to rent decent
buildings.
No, it's because there were gang rivalries in Mexico that they brought
here with them.
That makes no sense to me and certainly is not the case here. The people
come from all over Mexico and have no time for gangs. It is only the second
or third generation kids that get involved in gangs.
Around here, keeping people out means keeping people who violate the
law out.
Then get rid of the people who hire them. If they don't work they will
leave.
Sorry, but just because A is violating the law, it doesn't mean that
B's more serious violation is negated.
Then urge your represetntatives to raise taxes, a lot, and hire tens of
thousands of additional law enforcement to stop them. It won't work but it's
a start.
If a colony of ants invades my house I will never get rid of them by taking
a few hundred a day outside and releasing them near their nest. I must get
rid of the queen.
How many employeers have been charged in your area lately.
The INS doesn't do anything. Against the employers or against the
illegal aliens.
Those are the
guiys with the big houses who complain about loosing money because they
didn't get a subsidy.
No, they're the guys with the little 1-man businesses who are hiring
illegal aliens for a few bucks a day less than people here legally
would get. We don't have many illegal migrant farm workers here.
And you say the worker is the one doing the more serious crime?
They all send money home and they all bring in more than they cost for
education and low cost medical assistance.
They "bring in" nothing - aside from the absolute minimum they can
live on, the money goes out of the country. And they get free medical
care - free to them, not to the taxpayers. (Read the article - do you
know what it costs for an air ambulance? No one asked if he had
insurance - he was airlifted to the best hospital in the area.)
Yes I do. I ride on a big red truck and usually am one of the first on
scene.
*Nobody* is ever refused such treatment. Money hardly matters anymore
since
without insurance few can handle such costs.
(The day after I wrote this a friend of a friend spent seven days in a
hospital because of a diabetic problem. No surgery, no intensive care, no
insurance.
$60,000)
So much for the claim that they "bring in" more than they cost.
Look it up. They bring in more than they use. Not a whole lot of people ride
in airplanes or require hospitalization. You are universalizing the
particular.
However all studies show they pay more in taxes
They pay NO taxes at all. Not around here.
You don't have any tax on food, clothing or property?
than tey use and they do
spend a lot of money here. This very small town (less than 1000) has
three
markets and two gas station/ markets. Chances are there would be the ones
on
the high way if the migrant was not here.
Not here.
It would be easy to get rid of them. Hit the guy that hires them, but
that
would raise the cost of the food you eat by a good bit.
It would be even easier - have the INS do their job.
Pay them, hire them. Double or tripple the price on anything that comes
off
a farm to get the money.
Your area, not here. They don't work on farms here. And if prices
went up if they were deported, the residents of Farmingville would
probably be glad to pay.
.
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| User: "Al Klein" |
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| Title: Re: OT: A throwback to the Sixties as protesters board freedom bus and take immigrants' fight for a fairer deal around the US |
02 Oct 2003 08:43:32 PM |
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|
On Thu, 02 Oct 2003 20:44:51 GMT, "Mike Painter" <mdotpainter@att.net>
posted in alt.atheism:
"Al Klein" <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote in message
news:kh0nnvcd51lrqukmj6k6280o7ccvtll7hc@Pern.rk...
On Wed, 01 Oct 2003 04:17:58 GMT, "Mike Painter" <mdotpainter@att.net>
posted in alt.atheism:
I'm guessing that if you drive by in a van they wave at you. They are
looking for work.
They're violating the law.
And probably are not being arrested because if they are the law will be
found unconstitutional
The laws prohibiting illegal entry into the country are
constitutional.
That makes no sense to me and certainly is not the case here. The people
come from all over Mexico and have no time for gangs. It is only the second
or third generation kids that get involved in gangs.
So the guys who are first-generation illegals and are involved in the
same gangs here as they were in Mexico are ... what? Something you're
not aware of?
Around here, keeping people out means keeping people who violate the
law out.
Then get rid of the people who hire them. If they don't work they will
leave.
Sorry, but just because A is violating the law, it doesn't mean that
B's more serious violation is negated.
Then urge your represetntatives to raise taxes, a lot, and hire tens of
thousands of additional law enforcement to stop them.
Why? No investigatory work is needed. We know the names and home
addresses of each and every one of them. All that's needed is to lock
them up, verify that they have no legal right to be here and send them
back.
If a colony of ants invades my house I will never get rid of them by taking
a few hundred a day outside and releasing them near their nest. I must get
rid of the queen.
The "queen", in this case, it the poverty in Mexico. That's their
problem, not ours.
Those are the
guiys with the big houses who complain about loosing money because they
didn't get a subsidy.
No, they're the guys with the little 1-man businesses who are hiring
illegal aliens for a few bucks a day less than people here legally
would get. We don't have many illegal migrant farm workers here.
And you say the worker is the one doing the more serious crime?
Illegally entering the country is a felony.
(The day after I wrote this a friend of a friend spent seven days in a
hospital because of a diabetic problem. No surgery, no intensive care, no
insurance.
$60,000)
He's been paying taxes all his life?
So much for the claim that they "bring in" more than they cost.
Look it up. They bring in more than they use.
Look at the numbers. Zero isn't more than they use.
Not a whole lot of people ride
in airplanes or require hospitalization. You are universalizing the
particular.
No, I'm "universalizing" the fact that people who don't pay taxes use
more than they "bring in".
However all studies show they pay more in taxes
They pay NO taxes at all. Not around here.
You don't have any tax on food, clothing or property?
Food and clothing, no. Property? They don't own cars or houses.
--
"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious
conviction."
- Blaise Pascal (1623-1662)
(random sig, produced by SigChanger)
rukbat at optonline dot net
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