On Tue, 27 Jun 2006 03:29:59 -0700, "Vlad Dracul" <.> wrote:

I can prove my point to the satisfaction of a rational person. I do my
duty
as a friend to help them view the issue from a perspective they may not
have
seen before.

Sorry to take so long responding.
I got tied up with b.s.
I've had Christian and Muslim friends that I could have good
conversations with but for the most part haven't known many who could
deal with religion in a truly logical fashion.
I don't really enjoy discussing it with most believers.
It's a scary thing for most of them to even consider giving up the
meme.
But that's the way it is with most hardcore beliefs.

I did not have a religious upbringing. As I matured, I noticed that almost
everyone around seemed obsessed with religion and their lives revolved
around it. At that time I was an agnostic o sorts, I had respect for
religion, but I didn't practice it since I knew very little of it.
I wanted to better integrate into society, so I decided to get informed
before I formed an opinion. I took a few classes at my local college,
dealing with religious studies. Then I studied a lot more in private and I
became an atheist, or better said, I became confident enough to call
myself
one without the need to apologize. If more people studied religion, there
would be lots more atheists around.

I don't think that's accurate.
Many believers devote a great deal of time to the study of religion.
They go to church on Sundays and have meetings and Bible camps
throughout the week.

And for every logical fallacy or every contradiction we point out they
will have an answer and most truly do not recognize how ridiculous
their arguments are.
If you point out the fact that a donkey or a serpent cannot speak
because they aren't equipped to do so they will often respond with
"Don't you think God could make them speak?"
It does no good to ask them to prove their holy book is true because
they will simply offer up passages in the same book that claim it is
true.
Its a strange and somewhat unnerving sort of madness.

I expect a true friend to point out my mistakes, so I can correct them,
and
I do the same for my friends. You wouldn't let a friend dive into a
shark-infested pool, would you? I believe it is my duty to show my friends
the fallacy of religion and it's destructive effects.

How about its positive effects?
If a drunkard or drug addict has tried every thing else and religion
is the thing that finally saves them, helping them to become
productive citizens, doesn't that have some benefit?
A benefit in fact to the greater society?
And wouldn't that be more rational than continuing to live a self
destructive life?
Like politics religion is a double edged sword.
Good and bad can come of both but very few people call for the
elimination of politics despite the fact that it too is very often
loaded down with lies and irrational beliefs.
It would be impossible to do away with either in fact and all that can
happen with religion is that it changes form over time.
For every god that is destroyed a new one rises to take it's place.

I'm not imposing, just revealing some of my knowledge and let them decide
for themselves. When they
refuse to hear me and interpret my attempt to help as a sign of hostility,
it's time to re-evaluate their mental capacity and the value of our
relationship. I repeat: I do not impose my ideas or make our continued
relationship conditional on following my lead. I enjoy a good debate and
welcome any arguments that are intended to be rational. When someone tells
me that no matter what argument or evidence I present to them, they don't
want to hear it, there's no point in continuing that discussion. I have
better things to do.

I agree but most of my conversations with believers have been in the
form of them trying to convince me that they are right and that I
simply don't have the devine knowledge they have which by their own
admission overrules reason and is something many of them are proud of.
I think thats sort of the insurmountable catch when it comes to true
belief.
Gullability, ignorance and a child like acceptance of the ridiculous
become virtues in their minds and reason and logic become crimes.

Sooner or later, such a relationship ends up in a breakup, why waste
time
trying to make it work?

It can only end up in a breakup if one or both sides is unwilling to
bend a bit.
I cherish their friendships and do not demand that they see the world
in the way that I do and they do not demand that I see the world in
the way that they do.
They are decent people and they honor me by counting me among their
friends.
They trust me with their children and what could be more honorable
than that?
What greater compliment could a man receive?

I think you're very lucky to know such people, if this is truly how they
feel about you. Most theists I've met, hate atheists more than satan.
Any chance they might be two-faced? Or are you talking about the weather
mostly, when you meet with them?

We don't generally talk religion.
I've been a surprise to most of them who were taught that atheists
don't have moral standards because we don't have the Bible as a guide.
Its sort of comical sometimes and can be confusing for some of them.
I do occasionally get the "You aren't a real atheist" bit which can be
mildly irritating but not much.

How do you feel when you invite them for dinner and they thank God for the
food that YOU have paid for?

If they are believers and want to hold hands around my table and bow
their heads while saying a blessing I will join them.
Its a matter of grace and manners.
I can bow my head but I don't have to utter the words.
And I can rest assured that they will also thank me before the evening
is over.
The first chaplain of the U.S. senate wrote that when he said his
first prayer before that body the only member to bow his head and was
respectfully silent was "The infidel Thomas Jefferson."
Great deal of class on Jefferson's part imo.
I can follow his example without the slightest discomfort.
That I think would speak far better of the atheist and the man than
what you suggest below.

How do you feel when they call you an animal
because you didn't pray along with them? Well, it has happened to me!

It has never happened to me.

I should've pissed in their food, then tell them that the food may have
come
from God, but the ***** was definitely mine.

How would that have helped?
It would actually have proven their point would it not?

Nobody does any good deeds without expecting some kind of compensation.

I've heard the argument made and do not agree that its always true.
What I'm doing at the moment regarding this homeless woman and her
child is causing me a great deal of distress and I'm not enjoying
anything about it.
I am however doing it because its the right thing to do.
I could kick them out, be alone again which I prefer and save money by
doing so, but that would be the *wrong* thing to do.

And no, feeling proud that I've done a good thing is not compensation
for having done it.
I don't feel any pride about it at all.
I would actually prefer that it be otherwise but I have no choice.
I do it because I must do it.

I once knew a born-again Christian who brought home a homeless person to
live
in (true story). One day, he came home and found his guest smoking pot. He
kicked him out, yelling: "I shared my home with you out of the goodness of
my heart, and this is what I get in return?" That's right, he did expect
something in return!

What he apparently didn't expect was active and flagrant disrespect.
Thats understandable but he may not have expected anything in return
for his good deed.

Mother Theresa's "selfless" actions were driven by a strong lust for
notoriety, Christians give to the church because they're promised to get
it
all back tenfold when they reach heaven. Suicide bombers expect big
compensation from Allah, including some virgins, plus they become national
heroes. Not a bad achievement for someone whose life isn't worth much
otherwise.
You won't find too many people willing to jump on a grenade, but you'll
find
a few. Why not all people? By performing the ultimate sacrifice they seek
to
give their self-perceived pointless life a meaning. Those who have
something
to live for don't give it up so easily.

I was a firefighter, EMT and a police officer.
And I had a lot to live for.
I did not feel my life was pointless but like most in those
professions I would have given it up for a stranger in a heartbeat if
necessary.
I am also an atheist so if I had died in the line of duty what would I
have expected as compensation?

I bought a 4 acre property in the mountains of Costa Rica last year.
Lots
of
flowers, mango trees, parrots and natural beauty, ten minute drive to
the
Pacific. I visited the country a few times before, nobody has ever asked
me
about my religion. You may have that problem in Idaho.

I don't care.
They can ask away and if they don't like the answers they can shun me
all they like.
I don't need them any more than they need me.
Interested in your adventures in Costa Rica though.
Sounds wonderful.
Fill me in if you don't mind.

There's no way I can tell you more about it than a Google search, but I'm
happy to share some of my experience. No, it's not an act of altruism, by
doing so I invite criticism, which could help me adjust some subjective
views. It's for my own benefit as well as yours.

Would you ever perform an act of pure altruism and do so without
feeling you had commited some sort of offense against logic or nature?
I read your discription of Costa Rica and it sounds almost too good to
be true.
Thanks.