| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"Daniel Kolle" |
| Date: |
11 Jan 2005 06:42:02 PM |
| Object: |
OT: English Teachers and Symbolism |
*sigh* Here we go again.
What is it with English teachers and that horrible, hideous
***** known as symbolism? Have they nothing better to do?
During my Honors English 11 class today, my pompous windbag of
a teacher began this elaborate lecture on some short story that we
read (the title eludes me).
"Blah poop flap THIS WAS EXACTLY WHAT THE AUTHOR MEANT blah
regurgitate foop," best described what I heard. I then asked the
teacher the following question:
"And you know this how, exactly? How you talked with the
author? Has she come up to you and told exactly what her intent was?"
She never did bother to reply. Score one for me... until she begins to
grade my papers! I was worth it though, I tell ya.
--
-Daniel "Mr. Brevity" Kolle; 16 A.A. #2035
Koji Kondo, Yo-Yo Ma, Gustav Mahler, Krzysztof Penderecki, and Geirr Tveitt are my Gods.
Head of EAC Denial Department and Madly Insane Scientist.
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| User: "Daniel Kolle" |
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| Title: Re: OT: English Teachers and Symbolism |
12 Jan 2005 07:01:43 PM |
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On Wed, 12 Jan 2005 03:33:15 GMT, Enkidu <enkidu@leaddogs.org> thought
hard and said:
Daniel Kolle <DKolle@hotmail.com> wrote in
news:0jr8u0hm786tprb0kl28vsdf4se056rrhm@4ax.com:
*sigh* Here we go again.
What is it with English teachers and that horrible, hideous
***** known as symbolism? Have they nothing better to do?
During my Honors English 11 class today, my pompous windbag of
a teacher began this elaborate lecture on some short story that we
read (the title eludes me).
"Blah poop flap THIS WAS EXACTLY WHAT THE AUTHOR MEANT blah
regurgitate foop," best described what I heard. I then asked the
teacher the following question:
"And you know this how, exactly? How you talked with the
author? Has she come up to you and told exactly what her intent was?"
She never did bother to reply. Score one for me... until she begins to
grade my p apers!Iwasworthitthough,Itellya.
Yeah, they'll tell you all about the symbolism in Shakspere as well, when
the reality is that he had to appeal to the masses and sell tickets to
earn his living. I think he meant what he said, and he said what he
meant.
My father royally pissed his college English teacher when he told him,
when asked what Moby ***** was about, "Did you ever possibly think that
these guys were fucking starving and invented some faux ***** to
make money and have something to eat?"
--
-Daniel "Mr. Brevity" Kolle; 16 A.A. #2035
Koji Kondo, Yo-Yo Ma, Gustav Mahler, Krzysztof Penderecki, and Geirr Tveitt are my Gods.
Head of EAC Denial Department and Madly Insane Scientist.
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| User: "Enkidu" |
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| Title: Re: OT: English Teachers and Symbolism |
12 Jan 2005 10:32:53 PM |
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Daniel Kolle <DKolle@hotmail.com> wrote in
news:80ibu0hnmog0btclqhopiuf49s178640jj@4ax.com:
On Wed, 12 Jan 2005 03:33:15 GMT, Enkidu <enkidu@leaddogs.org> thought
hard and said:
Daniel Kolle <DKolle@hotmail.com> wrote in
news:0jr8u0hm786tprb0kl28vsdf4se056rrhm@4ax.com:
*sigh* Here we go again.
What is it with English teachers and that horrible, hideous
***** known as symbolism? Have they nothing better to do?
During my Honors English 11 class today, my pompous windbag of
a teacher began this elaborate lecture on some short story that we
read (the title eludes me).
"Blah poop flap THIS WAS EXACTLY WHAT THE AUTHOR MEANT blah
regurgitate foop," best described what I heard. I then asked the
teacher the following question:
"And you know this how, exactly? How you talked with the
author? Has she come up to you and told exactly what her intent
was?" She never did bother to reply. Score one for me... until she
begins to grade my p apers!Iwasworthitthough,Itellya.
Yeah, they'll tell you all about the symbolism in Shakspere as well,
when the reality is that he had to appeal to the masses and sell
tickets to earn his living. I think he meant what he said, and he
said what he meant.
My father royally pissed his college English teacher when he told him,
when asked what Moby ***** was about, "Did you ever possibly think that
these guys were fucking starving and invented some faux ***** to
make money and have something to eat?"
I don't think is has to be some kind of sham, I think most stories are
about what they say they are about. Is Moby ***** about "Man's Stuggle"
or is it about one man's struggle? I go for the second option.
--
Enkidu AA# 2165
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then where does evil come from?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?
Epicurus 341-270 B.C.E.
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| User: "Glenn Arnold" |
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| Title: Re: OT: English Teachers and Symbolism |
13 Jan 2005 04:30:50 PM |
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Enkidu wrote:
Daniel Kolle <DKolle@hotmail.com> wrote in
news:80ibu0hnmog0btclqhopiuf49s178640jj@4ax.com:
On Wed, 12 Jan 2005 03:33:15 GMT, Enkidu <enkidu@leaddogs.org> thought
hard and said:
Daniel Kolle <DKolle@hotmail.com> wrote in
news:0jr8u0hm786tprb0kl28vsdf4se056rrhm@4ax.com:
*sigh* Here we go again.
What is it with English teachers and that horrible, hideous
***** known as symbolism? Have they nothing better to do?
During my Honors English 11 class today, my pompous windbag of
a teacher began this elaborate lecture on some short story that we
read (the title eludes me).
"Blah poop flap THIS WAS EXACTLY WHAT THE AUTHOR MEANT blah
regurgitate foop," best described what I heard. I then asked the
teacher the following question:
"And you know this how, exactly? How you talked with the
author? Has she come up to you and told exactly what her intent
was?" She never did bother to reply. Score one for me... until she
begins to grade my p apers!Iwasworthitthough,Itellya.
Yeah, they'll tell you all about the symbolism in Shakspere as well,
when the reality is that he had to appeal to the masses and sell
tickets to earn his living. I think he meant what he said, and he
said what he meant.
My father royally pissed his college English teacher when he told him,
when asked what Moby ***** was about, "Did you ever possibly think that
these guys were fucking starving and invented some faux ***** to
make money and have something to eat?"
I don't think is has to be some kind of sham, I think most stories are
about what they say they are about. Is Moby ***** about "Man's Stuggle"
or is it about one man's struggle? I go for the second option.
Melville's intention with Moby ***** is too well documented, by way of
his discussion with Hawthorne over what he intended to acheive with the
book. Moby ***** takes too many sidetrips into what seems to be pointless
detail for it to be "just a story about a man hunting a whale." Melville
also broke ground by defying conventions and breaking the "4th wall" as
it were, by speaking directly as author to reader. The story (or the
plot, or narrative) isn't really the important part, and he says so:
"So far as *what there may be of a narrative* in this book; and, indeed,
as indirectly touching one or two very interesting and curious
particulars in the habits of sperm whales, the foregoing chapter, in its
earliest part, is as important a one as will be found in this volume."
(referring to a chapter in which Melville describes how it is reasonable
to search for a single whale in the entire world)
Melville certainly intended that people should discuss his book and dig
for meaning. He tells us so here:
"But I now leave my cetological System standing thus unfinished, even as
the great Cathedral of Cologne was left, with the crane still standing
upon the top of the uncompleted tower. For small erections may be
finished by their first architects; grand ones, true ones, ever leave
the copestone to posterity. God keep me from ever completing anything.
This whole book is but a draught --nay, but the draught of a draught."
And finally (rather arrogantly):
"To produce a mighty book, you must choose a mighty theme."
There's no question that authors really do build symbolism and hidden
meaning into their books. Hemingway said that a novel should be like an
iceberg: 80% hidden, so you have to work at it to get the meaning,
including meaning the author didn't intend. (then again, I've never
liked Hemingway)
But Robyn's experience is not so telling of great authors, as of wannabe
authors and power-hungry Lit teachers. Finding meaning in a book should
have to do with *you*, and what *you* make of the book. So a teacher
that tells you "you're wrong" is inherently wrong. Especially if it's
clear you made a sincere attempt to find your own meaning in it.
Glenn Arnold
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| User: "jwk" |
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| Title: Re: OT: English Teachers and Symbolism |
12 Jan 2005 05:15:35 PM |
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Daniel Kolle wrote:
*sigh* Here we go again.
What is it with English teachers and that horrible, hideous
***** known as symbolism? Have they nothing better to do?
During my Honors English 11 class today, my pompous windbag of
a teacher began this elaborate lecture on some short story that we
read (the title eludes me).
"Blah poop flap THIS WAS EXACTLY WHAT THE AUTHOR MEANT blah
regurgitate foop," best described what I heard. I then asked the
teacher the following question:
"And you know this how, exactly? How you talked with the
author? Has she come up to you and told exactly what her intent was?"
She never did bother to reply. Score one for me... until she begins
to
grade my papers! I was worth it though, I tell ya.
It's the only fun they have. That and flunking anyone not smart enough
to see how brilliant their analyses are. Good luck getting a different
professor next semester.
jwk
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: OT: English Teachers and Symbolism |
11 Jan 2005 11:09:08 PM |
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Daniel Kolle wrote:
*sigh* Here we go again.
What is it with English teachers and that horrible, hideous
***** known as symbolism? Have they nothing better to do?
That was part of the fun in English class, deciphering what the
author really means or is suggesting.
During my Honors English 11 class today, my pompous windbag of
a teacher began this elaborate lecture on some short story that we
read (the title eludes me).
"Blah poop flap THIS WAS EXACTLY WHAT THE AUTHOR MEANT blah
regurgitate foop," best described what I heard.
I can imagine the mental midget saying, "Foreshadowing is when you
walk away from the sun."
I then asked the
teacher the following question:
"And you know this how, exactly? How you talked with the
author? Has she come up to you and told exactly what her intent was?"
She never did bother to reply. Score one for me... until she begins
to
grade my papers! I was worth it though, I tell ya.
The idiot probably couldn't spell "double entendre", and wouldn't
because it's a French phrase. How "a propos".
-Daniel "Mr. Brevity" Kolle; 16 A.A. #2035
I empathize. I know what it's like to be smarter than my teachers,
and I was an average student.
Bob Dog
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| User: "J Forbes" |
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| Title: Re: OT: English Teachers and Symbolism |
11 Jan 2005 09:45:19 PM |
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Daniel Kolle wrote:
*sigh* Here we go again.
What is it with English teachers and that horrible, hideous
***** known as symbolism? Have they nothing better to do?
During my Honors English 11 class today, my pompous windbag of
a teacher began this elaborate lecture on some short story that we
read (the title eludes me).
"Blah poop flap THIS WAS EXACTLY WHAT THE AUTHOR MEANT blah
regurgitate foop," best described what I heard. I then asked the
teacher the following question:
"And you know this how, exactly? How you talked with the
author? Has she come up to you and told exactly what her intent was?"
She never did bother to reply. Score one for me... until she begins to
grade my papers! I was worth it though, I tell ya.
--
-Daniel "Mr. Brevity" Kolle; 16 A.A. #2035
You sound just like my 16 yr old son who only bitches about his
English class...in the other classes they get to deal with facts!
--
Jim
Visit the Selectric Typewriter Museum!
http://www.selectric.org
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| User: "Glenn Arnold" |
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| Title: Re: OT: English Teachers and Symbolism |
11 Jan 2005 07:23:32 PM |
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Daniel Kolle wrote:
*sigh* Here we go again.
What is it with English teachers and that horrible, hideous
***** known as symbolism? Have they nothing better to do?
During my Honors English 11 class today, my pompous windbag of
a teacher began this elaborate lecture on some short story that we
read (the title eludes me).
"Blah poop flap THIS WAS EXACTLY WHAT THE AUTHOR MEANT blah
regurgitate foop," best described what I heard. I then asked the
teacher the following question:
"And you know this how, exactly? How you talked with the
author? Has she come up to you and told exactly what her intent was?"
She never did bother to reply. Score one for me... until she begins to
grade my papers! I was worth it though, I tell ya.
I know some teacher like that. Of course, authors do fill their books
with symbolism, and in some cases, we do know EXACTLY what they meant. I
other cases, they leave it for us to figure out. Robert Frost was once
asked what he meant by the line:
"two roads diverged in a wood and I
I took the one less traveled by
and that has made all the difference."
He answered "It means nothing, it's just an exercise in meter and rhyme
scheme."
Well, duh, most of us can get the meaning of *that* one, but it's pretty
pointless if it needs to be explained to us.
On the other hand there's Mellville, who put so much symbolism into Moby
***** that you can't tell where it begins, and where it ends. *I* think I
*know* what Melville was trying to say, but no one really knows for
sure. So anyone that gives their opinion as an absolute truth is just
being pompous.
Glenn Arnold
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| User: "chibiabos" |
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| Title: Re: OT: English Teachers and Symbolism |
11 Jan 2005 07:55:43 PM |
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In article <41E47C14.7040307@att.net>, Glenn Arnold <oldnoah@att.net>
wrote:
Daniel Kolle wrote:
*sigh* Here we go again.
What is it with English teachers and that horrible, hideous
***** known as symbolism? Have they nothing better to do?
During my Honors English 11 class today, my pompous windbag of
a teacher began this elaborate lecture on some short story that we
read (the title eludes me).
"Blah poop flap THIS WAS EXACTLY WHAT THE AUTHOR MEANT blah
regurgitate foop," best described what I heard. I then asked the
teacher the following question:
"And you know this how, exactly? How you talked with the
author? Has she come up to you and told exactly what her intent was?"
She never did bother to reply. Score one for me... until she begins to
grade my papers! I was worth it though, I tell ya.
I know some teacher like that. Of course, authors do fill their books
with symbolism, and in some cases, we do know EXACTLY what they meant. I
other cases, they leave it for us to figure out. Robert Frost was once
asked what he meant by the line:
"two roads diverged in a wood and I
I took the one less traveled by
and that has made all the difference."
He answered "It means nothing, it's just an exercise in meter and rhyme
scheme."
Well, duh, most of us can get the meaning of *that* one, but it's pretty
pointless if it needs to be explained to us.
On the other hand there's Mellville, who put so much symbolism into Moby
***** that you can't tell where it begins, and where it ends. *I* think I
*know* what Melville was trying to say, but no one really knows for
sure. So anyone that gives their opinion as an absolute truth is just
being pompous.
Glenn Arnold
Sometimes, a novel is just a novel.
-chib
--
Member of S.M.A.S.H.
Sarcastic Middle-aged Atheists with a Sense of Humor
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| User: "Robibnikoff" |
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| Title: Re: OT: English Teachers and Symbolism |
11 Jan 2005 08:16:02 PM |
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"chibiabos" <chib@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:110120051755436455%chib@nospam.com...
In article <41E47C14.7040307@att.net>, Glenn Arnold <oldnoah@att.net>
wrote:
snipo
I know some teacher like that. Of course, authors do fill their books
with symbolism, and in some cases, we do know EXACTLY what they meant. I
other cases, they leave it for us to figure out. Robert Frost was once
asked what he meant by the line:
"two roads diverged in a wood and I
I took the one less traveled by
and that has made all the difference."
He answered "It means nothing, it's just an exercise in meter and rhyme
scheme."
Well, duh, most of us can get the meaning of *that* one, but it's pretty
pointless if it needs to be explained to us.
On the other hand there's Mellville, who put so much symbolism into Moby
***** that you can't tell where it begins, and where it ends. *I* think I
*know* what Melville was trying to say, but no one really knows for
sure. So anyone that gives their opinion as an absolute truth is just
being pompous.
Glenn Arnold
Sometimes, a novel is just a novel.
I had a very silly American Lit professor who said that Moby ***** was the
world's biggest phallic symbol. Oy :)
--
---------
Robyn
Resident Witchypoo
#1557
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: OT: English Teachers and Symbolism |
13 Jan 2005 03:48:20 AM |
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On Tue, 11 Jan 2005 21:16:02 -0500, "Robibnikoff"
<witchypoo@broomstick.com> wrote:
"chibiabos" <chib@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:110120051755436455%chib@nospam.com...
In article <41E47C14.7040307@att.net>, Glenn Arnold <oldnoah@att.net>
wrote:
snipo
I know some teacher like that. Of course, authors do fill their books
with symbolism, and in some cases, we do know EXACTLY what they meant. I
other cases, they leave it for us to figure out. Robert Frost was once
asked what he meant by the line:
"two roads diverged in a wood and I
I took the one less traveled by
and that has made all the difference."
He answered "It means nothing, it's just an exercise in meter and rhyme
scheme."
Well, duh, most of us can get the meaning of *that* one, but it's pretty
pointless if it needs to be explained to us.
On the other hand there's Mellville, who put so much symbolism into Moby
***** that you can't tell where it begins, and where it ends. *I* think I
*know* what Melville was trying to say, but no one really knows for
sure. So anyone that gives their opinion as an absolute truth is just
being pompous.
Glenn Arnold
Sometimes, a novel is just a novel.
I had a very silly American Lit professor who said that Moby ***** was the
world's biggest phallic symbol. Oy :)
Mellville was in the navy for a short period of time but apparently
decided there were "bigger fish to fry" in this world and jumped ship.
It was probably his guilt at having violated his sworn oath to serve
faithfully <A man swore on his honor back then and a man's honor was
everything > that led to his creation of Ahab who suffered Mellville's
own guilty death by proxy in his obsessive search for a "bigger fish
to fry."
<They thought a whale was a big fish>
Isn't this fun? :-)
Actually Mellville really was a seaman on a whaler, then in the navy
and did go A.W.O.L. but he created Moby ***** around the real incident
of the whaleship Essex which was deliberately rammed and sunk by a
very large enraged spermwhale in 1819.
As Glenn said, sometimes a novel is just a novel :-)
atheist@home#1554
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| User: "Glenn Arnold" |
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| Title: Re: OT: English Teachers and Symbolism |
13 Jan 2005 03:49:45 PM |
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wrote:
On Tue, 11 Jan 2005 21:16:02 -0500, "Robibnikoff"
<witchypoo@broomstick.com> wrote:
"chibiabos" <chib@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:110120051755436455%chib@nospam.com...
In article <41E47C14.7040307@att.net>, Glenn Arnold <oldnoah@att.net>
wrote:
snipo
I know some teacher like that. Of course, authors do fill their books
with symbolism, and in some cases, we do know EXACTLY what they meant. I
other cases, they leave it for us to figure out. Robert Frost was once
asked what he meant by the line:
"two roads diverged in a wood and I
I took the one less traveled by
and that has made all the difference."
He answered "It means nothing, it's just an exercise in meter and rhyme
scheme."
Well, duh, most of us can get the meaning of *that* one, but it's pretty
pointless if it needs to be explained to us.
On the other hand there's Mellville, who put so much symbolism into Moby
***** that you can't tell where it begins, and where it ends. *I* think I
*know* what Melville was trying to say, but no one really knows for
sure. So anyone that gives their opinion as an absolute truth is just
being pompous.
Glenn Arnold
Sometimes, a novel is just a novel.
I had a very silly American Lit professor who said that Moby ***** was the
world's biggest phallic symbol. Oy :)
Mellville was in the navy for a short period of time but apparently
decided there were "bigger fish to fry" in this world and jumped ship.
It was probably his guilt at having violated his sworn oath to serve
faithfully <A man swore on his honor back then and a man's honor was
everything >
Mellville jumped ship in the whaling fleet. This was very common, in
fact very few people actually came back on the ship they went out on.
His book "Typee" is a somewhat fictionalized account of his experiences
with a tribe of South Pacific natives that he lived with until he found
passage on another ship. Typee made Melville: "The Sex Symbol of the
1800's," because of his relationship with a native girl, as described in
the book. Typee was his most popular book, while he was alive.
During his life, Moby ***** was panned by the press, largely because of
Ishmael's consideration of atheism, and a generally irreverent attitude
toward religion.
that led to his creation of Ahab who suffered Mellville's
own guilty death by proxy in his obsessive search for a "bigger fish
to fry."
<They thought a whale was a big fish>
Isn't this fun? :-)
Actually Mellville really was a seaman on a whaler, then in the navy
and did go A.W.O.L. but he created Moby ***** around the real incident
of the whaleship Essex which was deliberately rammed and sunk by a
very large enraged spermwhale in 1819.
As Glenn said, sometimes a novel is just a novel :-)
Not me. Although I concur that "sometimes a novel is just a novel," Moby
***** is (IMHO) the greatest work of literature I have ever read, and
possibly the greatest of all time. Symbolism and all.
Glenn Arnold
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: OT: English Teachers and Symbolism |
13 Jan 2005 07:18:23 PM |
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On Thu, 13 Jan 2005 16:49:45 -0500, Glenn Arnold <oldnoah@att.net>
wrote:
atheist@home.com wrote:
On Tue, 11 Jan 2005 21:16:02 -0500, "Robibnikoff"
<witchypoo@broomstick.com> wrote:
"chibiabos" <chib@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:110120051755436455%chib@nospam.com...
In article <41E47C14.7040307@att.net>, Glenn Arnold <oldnoah@att.net>
wrote:
snipo
I know some teacher like that. Of course, authors do fill their books
with symbolism, and in some cases, we do know EXACTLY what they meant. I
other cases, they leave it for us to figure out. Robert Frost was once
asked what he meant by the line:
"two roads diverged in a wood and I
I took the one less traveled by
and that has made all the difference."
He answered "It means nothing, it's just an exercise in meter and rhyme
scheme."
Well, duh, most of us can get the meaning of *that* one, but it's pretty
pointless if it needs to be explained to us.
On the other hand there's Mellville, who put so much symbolism into Moby
***** that you can't tell where it begins, and where it ends. *I* think I
*know* what Melville was trying to say, but no one really knows for
sure. So anyone that gives their opinion as an absolute truth is just
being pompous.
Glenn Arnold
Sometimes, a novel is just a novel.
I had a very silly American Lit professor who said that Moby ***** was the
world's biggest phallic symbol. Oy :)
Mellville was in the navy for a short period of time but apparently
decided there were "bigger fish to fry" in this world and jumped ship.
It was probably his guilt at having violated his sworn oath to serve
faithfully <A man swore on his honor back then and a man's honor was
everything >
Mellville jumped ship in the whaling fleet.
I couldn't remember which.
This was very common, in
fact very few people actually came back on the ship they went out on.
I have several books on the subject and am absolutely amazed by what
they did and the lives they led.
I once went below decks on the whaleship Charles W. Morgan at Mystic
Seaport.
http://www.mysticseaport.org/index.cfm?fuseaction=home.viewpage&page_id=B3E63C64-B3CA-45AE-A83D72C303A9C6BF
I don't know how to describe the feeling.
His book "Typee" is a somewhat fictionalized account of his experiences
with a tribe of South Pacific natives that he lived with until he found
passage on another ship. Typee made Melville: "The Sex Symbol of the
1800's," because of his relationship with a native girl, as described in
the book. Typee was his most popular book, while he was alive.
I have a copy of his collected works but haven't read it yet.
I did read Moby ***** when I was a kid and will eventually get around
to reading it again.
During his life, Moby ***** was panned by the press, largely because of
Ishmael's consideration of atheism, and a generally irreverent attitude
toward religion.
It's the thing he will always be remembered for.
I haven't read Typee but had understood that Moby ***** was pretty much
the only work the piblic enjoyed.
that led to his creation of Ahab who suffered Mellville's
own guilty death by proxy in his obsessive search for a "bigger fish
to fry."
<They thought a whale was a big fish>
Isn't this fun? :-)
Actually Mellville really was a seaman on a whaler, then in the navy
and did go A.W.O.L. but he created Moby ***** around the real incident
of the whaleship Essex which was deliberately rammed and sunk by a
very large enraged spermwhale in 1819.
As Glenn said, sometimes a novel is just a novel :-)
Not me. Although I concur that "sometimes a novel is just a novel," Moby
***** is (IMHO) the greatest work of literature I have ever read, and
possibly the greatest of all time. Symbolism and all.
I've got to go read it now :-)
Btw, my living room is decorated with models of old ships and
seafearing items including a working model of an old sextant, an old
compass in a wooden case and a blue crystal of the type embedded in
the deck of some ships to provide lighting below decks.
I have a mid 19th century chair near the fire place, a copper spitoon
and a nightstand with several books on the sea and an old handcarved
African walking stick leaning against the fireplace.
It's a place I created for the ghost of an old ships captain who moved
in with me some time back to sit and enjoy his retirement.
Sitting near his chair is a hand made stool from around 1840-50 where
the ghost of his little grand daughter sits when she comes to visit.
<The grand daughter and her mother were drowned on a ship that sank in
a winter storm off Cape Cod at Provincetown shortly after leaving
Boston around 1850 or so>
I created the guy for fun and created stories about who he was and
where he came from <He lived in his old house on Nantucket but a few
years ago some yuppies moved in and started changing things, he didn't
like them and ended up roaming about looking for new digs and settled
at my house.
When I first told my friends about him a year or so after my wife died
I did so with a straight face and they were afraid that because of my
circumstances I had gone a bit batty.
The captain got a kick out of that ;-)
atheist@home#1554
Glenn Arnold
.
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| User: "Glenn Arnold" |
|
| Title: Re: OT: English Teachers and Symbolism |
13 Jan 2005 08:29:04 PM |
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|
wrote:
On Thu, 13 Jan 2005 16:49:45 -0500, Glenn Arnold <oldnoah@att.net>
wrote:
wrote:
<snip>
Mellville was in the navy for a short period of time but apparently
decided there were "bigger fish to fry" in this world and jumped ship.
It was probably his guilt at having violated his sworn oath to serve
faithfully <A man swore on his honor back then and a man's honor was
everything >
Mellville jumped ship in the whaling fleet.
I couldn't remember which.
This was very common, in
fact very few people actually came back on the ship they went out on.
I have several books on the subject and am absolutely amazed by what
they did and the lives they led.
I once went below decks on the whaleship Charles W. Morgan at Mystic
Seaport.
http://www.mysticseaport.org/index.cfm?fuseaction=home.viewpage&page_id=B3E63C64-B3CA-45AE-A83D72C303A9C6BF
I don't know how to describe the feeling.
I've been there. And I've got a bad back. You know what I mean.
I hadn't read Moby ***** yet, but when I did, I kept thinking of what it
was like in the Morgan while I read the chapter about "The Mincer." i.e.
the guy who slices the whale blubber into "bible leaves" (really thin
slices, so they will render their fat better). What I didn't see at
Mystic is that the whole floor is covered in oil, so it's slippery, and
they didn't have sneakers back then, so everyone went barefoot for
better traction, and they're using these razor sharp instruments to
slice the blubber, and the deck of the ship is rolling, and.... You get
the idea.
Melville says toes are scarce among mincers.
His book "Typee" is a somewhat fictionalized account of his experiences
with a tribe of South Pacific natives that he lived with until he found
passage on another ship. Typee made Melville: "The Sex Symbol of the
1800's," because of his relationship with a native girl, as described in
the book. Typee was his most popular book, while he was alive.
I have a copy of his collected works but haven't read it yet.
I did read Moby ***** when I was a kid and will eventually get around
to reading it again.
Make sure it's an unabridged version. Any editing at all is likely to
leave out important parts, and Jokes. If it isn't spelled
"archbishoprick" you got a bad version.
<snip>
I've got to go read it now :-)
Btw, my living room is decorated with models of old ships and
seafearing items including a working model of an old sextant, an old
compass in a wooden case and a blue crystal of the type embedded in
the deck of some ships to provide lighting below decks.
I have a mid 19th century chair near the fire place, a copper spitoon
and a nightstand with several books on the sea and an old handcarved
African walking stick leaning against the fireplace.
It's a place I created for the ghost of an old ships captain who moved
in with me some time back to sit and enjoy his retirement.
Sitting near his chair is a hand made stool from around 1840-50 where
the ghost of his little grand daughter sits when she comes to visit.
<The grand daughter and her mother were drowned on a ship that sank in
a winter storm off Cape Cod at Provincetown shortly after leaving
Boston around 1850 or so>
I created the guy for fun and created stories about who he was and
where he came from <He lived in his old house on Nantucket but a few
years ago some yuppies moved in and started changing things, he didn't
like them and ended up roaming about looking for new digs and settled
at my house.
When I first told my friends about him a year or so after my wife died
I did so with a straight face and they were afraid that because of my
circumstances I had gone a bit batty.
The captain got a kick out of that ;-)
Me too.
Glenn Arnold
.
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| User: "stoney" |
|
| Title: Re: OT: English Teachers and Symbolism |
15 Jan 2005 07:27:44 PM |
|
|
On Fri, 14 Jan 2005 01:18:23 GMT, wrote:
On Thu, 13 Jan 2005 16:49:45 -0500, Glenn Arnold <oldnoah@att.net>
wrote:
wrote:
On Tue, 11 Jan 2005 21:16:02 -0500, "Robibnikoff"
<witchypoo@broomstick.com> wrote:
"chibiabos" <chib@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:110120051755436455%chib@nospam.com...
In article <41E47C14.7040307@att.net>, Glenn Arnold <oldnoah@att.net>
wrote:
snipo
I know some teacher like that. Of course, authors do fill their books
with symbolism, and in some cases, we do know EXACTLY what they meant. I
other cases, they leave it for us to figure out. Robert Frost was once
asked what he meant by the line:
"two roads diverged in a wood and I
I took the one less traveled by
and that has made all the difference."
He answered "It means nothing, it's just an exercise in meter and rhyme
scheme."
Well, duh, most of us can get the meaning of *that* one, but it's pretty
pointless if it needs to be explained to us.
On the other hand there's Mellville, who put so much symbolism into Moby
***** that you can't tell where it begins, and where it ends. *I* think I
*know* what Melville was trying to say, but no one really knows for
sure. So anyone that gives their opinion as an absolute truth is just
being pompous.
Glenn Arnold
Sometimes, a novel is just a novel.
I had a very silly American Lit professor who said that Moby ***** was the
world's biggest phallic symbol. Oy :)
Mellville was in the navy for a short period of time but apparently
decided there were "bigger fish to fry" in this world and jumped ship.
It was probably his guilt at having violated his sworn oath to serve
faithfully <A man swore on his honor back then and a man's honor was
everything >
Mellville jumped ship in the whaling fleet.
I couldn't remember which.
This was very common, in
fact very few people actually came back on the ship they went out on.
I have several books on the subject and am absolutely amazed by what
they did and the lives they led.
I once went below decks on the whaleship Charles W. Morgan at Mystic
Seaport.
http://www.mysticseaport.org/index.cfm?fuseaction=home.viewpage&page_id=B3E63C64-B3CA-45AE-A83D72C303A9C6BF
I don't know how to describe the feeling.
I've been onboard the HMS Discovery. There's on 4' x 4' section on
the ships centreline which is raised about 6." That was the only
place below decks one of the crew could stand. And they were on that
little thing for over two years!
--
Contempt of Congress meter reading-offscale.
Hello, theocracy with a fundamentalist US Supreme
Court who will ensure church and state are joined
at the hip like clergy and altar boys.
America 1776-Jan 2001 RIP
.
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|
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "stoney" |
|
| Title: Re: OT: English Teachers and Symbolism |
15 Jan 2005 07:18:50 PM |
|
|
On Tue, 11 Jan 2005 21:16:02 -0500, "Robibnikoff"
<witchypoo@broomstick.com> wrote:
"chibiabos" <chib@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:110120051755436455%chib@nospam.com...
In article <41E47C14.7040307@att.net>, Glenn Arnold <oldnoah@att.net>
wrote:
snipo
I know some teacher like that. Of course, authors do fill their books
with symbolism, and in some cases, we do know EXACTLY what they meant. I
other cases, they leave it for us to figure out. Robert Frost was once
asked what he meant by the line:
"two roads diverged in a wood and I
I took the one less traveled by
and that has made all the difference."
He answered "It means nothing, it's just an exercise in meter and rhyme
scheme."
Well, duh, most of us can get the meaning of *that* one, but it's pretty
pointless if it needs to be explained to us.
On the other hand there's Mellville, who put so much symbolism into Moby
***** that you can't tell where it begins, and where it ends. *I* think I
*know* what Melville was trying to say, but no one really knows for
sure. So anyone that gives their opinion as an absolute truth is just
being pompous.
Glenn Arnold
Sometimes, a novel is just a novel.
I had a very silly American Lit professor who said that Moby ***** was the
world's biggest phallic symbol. Oy :)
Phallusies....and/or penis envy.
--
Contempt of Congress meter reading-offscale.
Hello, theocracy with a fundamentalist US Supreme
Court who will ensure church and state are joined
at the hip like clergy and altar boys.
America 1776-Jan 2001 RIP
.
|
|
|
|
| User: "Glenn Arnold" |
|
| Title: Re: OT: English Teachers and Symbolism |
11 Jan 2005 08:46:27 PM |
|
|
Robibnikoff wrote:
"chibiabos" <chib@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:110120051755436455%chib@nospam.com...
In article <41E47C14.7040307@att.net>, Glenn Arnold <oldnoah@att.net>
wrote:
snipo
I know some teacher like that. Of course, authors do fill their books
with symbolism, and in some cases, we do know EXACTLY what they meant. I
other cases, they leave it for us to figure out. Robert Frost was once
asked what he meant by the line:
"two roads diverged in a wood and I
I took the one less traveled by
and that has made all the difference."
He answered "It means nothing, it's just an exercise in meter and rhyme
scheme."
Well, duh, most of us can get the meaning of *that* one, but it's pretty
pointless if it needs to be explained to us.
On the other hand there's Mellville, who put so much symbolism into Moby
***** that you can't tell where it begins, and where it ends. *I* think I
*know* what Melville was trying to say, but no one really knows for
sure. So anyone that gives their opinion as an absolute truth is just
being pompous.
Glenn Arnold
Sometimes, a novel is just a novel.
I had a very silly American Lit professor who said that Moby ***** was the
world's biggest phallic symbol. Oy :)
I wouldn't be surprised, actually. But I have no way of knowing. I've
never seen any reasonable opinion of what Melville meant by the name.
But if Moby ***** himself isn't, then the chapter called "the Cassock"
definitely is. But that's explicit, not symbolic.
Now THERE's a chapter for atheists. (One more reason why I say Moby *****
should be on any atheist's bookshelf)
Glenn Arnold
.
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| User: "Nivlem" |
|
| Title: Re: OT: English Teachers and Symbolism |
12 Jan 2005 06:16:06 AM |
|
|
Glenn Arnold wrote:
Robibnikoff wrote:
"chibiabos" <chib@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:110120051755436455%chib@nospam.com...
In article <41E47C14.7040307@att.net>, Glenn Arnold <oldnoah@att.net>
wrote:
snipo
I know some teacher like that. Of course, authors do fill their books
with symbolism, and in some cases, we do know EXACTLY what they meant. I
other cases, they leave it for us to figure out. Robert Frost was once
asked what he meant by the line:
"two roads diverged in a wood and I
I took the one less traveled by
and that has made all the difference."
He answered "It means nothing, it's just an exercise in meter and rhyme
scheme."
Well, duh, most of us can get the meaning of *that* one, but it's pretty
pointless if it needs to be explained to us.
On the other hand there's Mellville, who put so much symbolism into Moby
***** that you can't tell where it begins, and where it ends. *I* think I
*know* what Melville was trying to say, but no one really knows for
sure. So anyone that gives their opinion as an absolute truth is just
being pompous.
Glenn Arnold
Sometimes, a novel is just a novel.
I had a very silly American Lit professor who said that Moby ***** was
the world's biggest phallic symbol. Oy :)
I wouldn't be surprised, actually. But I have no way of knowing. I've
never seen any reasonable opinion of what Melville meant by the name.
But if Moby ***** himself isn't, then the chapter called "the Cassock"
definitely is. But that's explicit, not symbolic.
Now THERE's a chapter for atheists. (One more reason why I say Moby *****
should be on any atheist's bookshelf)
Well, perhaps as a fine example of how not to write.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Glenn Arnold" |
|
| Title: Re: OT: English Teachers and Symbolism |
12 Jan 2005 03:47:35 PM |
|
|
Nivlem wrote:
Glenn Arnold wrote:
Robibnikoff wrote:
"chibiabos" <chib@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:110120051755436455%chib@nospam.com...
In article <41E47C14.7040307@att.net>, Glenn Arnold <oldnoah@att.net>
wrote:
snipo
I know some teacher like that. Of course, authors do fill their books
with symbolism, and in some cases, we do know EXACTLY what they
meant. I
other cases, they leave it for us to figure out. Robert Frost was once
asked what he meant by the line:
"two roads diverged in a wood and I
I took the one less traveled by
and that has made all the difference."
He answered "It means nothing, it's just an exercise in meter and rhyme
scheme."
Well, duh, most of us can get the meaning of *that* one, but it's
pretty
pointless if it needs to be explained to us.
On the other hand there's Mellville, who put so much symbolism into
Moby
***** that you can't tell where it begins, and where it ends. *I*
think I
*know* what Melville was trying to say, but no one really knows for
sure. So anyone that gives their opinion as an absolute truth is just
being pompous.
Glenn Arnold
Sometimes, a novel is just a novel.
I had a very silly American Lit professor who said that Moby ***** was
the world's biggest phallic symbol. Oy :)
I wouldn't be surprised, actually. But I have no way of knowing. I've
never seen any reasonable opinion of what Melville meant by the name.
But if Moby ***** himself isn't, then the chapter called "the Cassock"
definitely is. But that's explicit, not symbolic.
Now THERE's a chapter for atheists. (One more reason why I say Moby
***** should be on any atheist's bookshelf)
Well, perhaps as a fine example of how not to write.
Your loss, I guess.
Glenn Arnold
.
|
|
|
| User: "Nivlem" |
|
| Title: Re: OT: English Teachers and Symbolism |
12 Jan 2005 05:14:02 PM |
|
|
Glenn Arnold wrote:
Nivlem wrote:
Glenn Arnold wrote:
Robibnikoff wrote:
"chibiabos" <chib@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:110120051755436455%chib@nospam.com...
In article <41E47C14.7040307@att.net>, Glenn Arnold <oldnoah@att.net>
wrote:
snipo
I know some teacher like that. Of course, authors do fill their books
with symbolism, and in some cases, we do know EXACTLY what they
meant. I
other cases, they leave it for us to figure out. Robert Frost was
once
asked what he meant by the line:
"two roads diverged in a wood and I
I took the one less traveled by
and that has made all the difference."
He answered "It means nothing, it's just an exercise in meter and
rhyme
scheme."
Well, duh, most of us can get the meaning of *that* one, but it's
pretty
pointless if it needs to be explained to us.
On the other hand there's Mellville, who put so much symbolism
into Moby
***** that you can't tell where it begins, and where it ends. *I*
think I
*know* what Melville was trying to say, but no one really knows for
sure. So anyone that gives their opinion as an absolute truth is just
being pompous.
Glenn Arnold
Sometimes, a novel is just a novel.
I had a very silly American Lit professor who said that Moby *****
was the world's biggest phallic symbol. Oy :)
I wouldn't be surprised, actually. But I have no way of knowing. I've
never seen any reasonable opinion of what Melville meant by the name.
But if Moby ***** himself isn't, then the chapter called "the Cassock"
definitely is. But that's explicit, not symbolic.
Now THERE's a chapter for atheists. (One more reason why I say Moby
***** should be on any atheist's bookshelf)
Well, perhaps as a fine example of how not to write.
Your loss, I guess.
Glenn Arnold
Not really. Horrible, stilted use of language, cardboard characters,
people introduced and then dropped a couple of pages later for no
apparent reason, it just struck me as a remarkably crude and primitive
effort for literature from the 19th century. Mind you, the last time I
picked up Melville was when they tried to force it down my throat in
high school. I suppose it could be that Melville was merely trying to
imitate someone who couldn't write, and I've failed to appreciate the
brilliant pastiche.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Glenn Arnold" |
|
| Title: Re: OT: English Teachers and Symbolism |
12 Jan 2005 09:02:24 PM |
|
|
Nivlem wrote:
Glenn Arnold wrote:
Nivlem wrote:
Glenn Arnold wrote:
Robibnikoff wrote:
"chibiabos" <chib@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:110120051755436455%chib@nospam.com...
In article <41E47C14.7040307@att.net>, Glenn Arnold <oldnoah@att.net>
wrote:
snipo
I know some teacher like that. Of course, authors do fill their books
with symbolism, and in some cases, we do know EXACTLY what they
meant. I
other cases, they leave it for us to figure out. Robert Frost was
once
asked what he meant by the line:
"two roads diverged in a wood and I
I took the one less traveled by
and that has made all the difference."
He answered "It means nothing, it's just an exercise in meter and
rhyme
scheme."
Well, duh, most of us can get the meaning of *that* one, but it's
pretty
pointless if it needs to be explained to us.
On the other hand there's Mellville, who put so much symbolism
into Moby
***** that you can't tell where it begins, and where it ends. *I*
think I
*know* what Melville was trying to say, but no one really knows for
sure. So anyone that gives their opinion as an absolute truth is just
being pompous.
Glenn Arnold
Sometimes, a novel is just a novel.
I had a very silly American Lit professor who said that Moby *****
was the world's biggest phallic symbol. Oy :)
I wouldn't be surprised, actually. But I have no way of knowing.
I've never seen any reasonable opinion of what Melville meant by the
name.
But if Moby ***** himself isn't, then the chapter called "the
Cassock" definitely is. But that's explicit, not symbolic.
Now THERE's a chapter for atheists. (One more reason why I say Moby
***** should be on any atheist's bookshelf)
Well, perhaps as a fine example of how not to write.
Your loss, I guess.
Glenn Arnold
Not really. Horrible, stilted use of language, cardboard characters,
people introduced and then dropped a couple of pages later for no
apparent reason, it just struck me as a remarkably crude and primitive
effort for literature from the 19th century.
Which is why so many successful writers of the 20th century copied a
style that he invented.
Mind you, the last time I picked up Melville was when they tried to
force it down my throat in high school.
This says it all.
I suppose it could be that Melville was merely trying to
imitate someone who couldn't write, and I've failed to appreciate the
brilliant pastiche.
A little insecure are you?
Glenn Arnold
.
|
|
|
| User: "Nivlem" |
|
| Title: Re: OT: English Teachers and Symbolism |
13 Jan 2005 04:49:23 PM |
|
|
Glenn Arnold wrote:
Nivlem wrote:
Glenn Arnold wrote:
Nivlem wrote:
Glenn Arnold wrote:
Robibnikoff wrote:
"chibiabos" <chib@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:110120051755436455%chib@nospam.com...
In article <41E47C14.7040307@att.net>, Glenn Arnold
<oldnoah@att.net>
wrote:
snipo
I know some teacher like that. Of course, authors do fill their
books
with symbolism, and in some cases, we do know EXACTLY what they
meant. I
other cases, they leave it for us to figure out. Robert Frost
was once
asked what he meant by the line:
"two roads diverged in a wood and I
I took the one less traveled by
and that has made all the difference."
He answered "It means nothing, it's just an exercise in meter
and rhyme
scheme."
Well, duh, most of us can get the meaning of *that* one, but
it's pretty
pointless if it needs to be explained to us.
On the other hand there's Mellville, who put so much symbolism
into Moby
***** that you can't tell where it begins, and where it ends. *I*
think I
*know* what Melville was trying to say, but no one really knows for
sure. So anyone that gives their opinion as an absolute truth is
just
being pompous.
Glenn Arnold
Sometimes, a novel is just a novel.
I had a very silly American Lit professor who said that Moby *****
was the world's biggest phallic symbol. Oy :)
I wouldn't be surprised, actually. But I have no way of knowing.
I've never seen any reasonable opinion of what Melville meant by
the name.
But if Moby ***** himself isn't, then the chapter called "the
Cassock" definitely is. But that's explicit, not symbolic.
Now THERE's a chapter for atheists. (One more reason why I say Moby
***** should be on any atheist's bookshelf)
Well, perhaps as a fine example of how not to write.
Your loss, I guess.
Glenn Arnold
Not really. Horrible, stilted use of language, cardboard characters,
people introduced and then dropped a couple of pages later for no
apparent reason, it just struck me as a remarkably crude and primitive
effort for literature from the 19th century.
Which is why so many successful writers of the 20th century copied a
style that he invented.
Mind you, the last time I picked up Melville was when they tried to
force it down my throat in high school.
This says it all.
I suppose it could be that Melville was merely trying to imitate
someone who couldn't write, and I've failed to appreciate the
brilliant pastiche.
A little insecure are you?
Okay, fine. I'll try again. I don't really expect to find that Moby *****
wasn't garbage, though. I thought Poe, Twain, and even Ambrose Bierce
were vastly better. Lots of supposedly classic stuff is a bit dubious if
you don't take people's word for it. Moving to art, where I admittedly
have a better education, "The Scream" is a fairly bad painting for
example. Munch is vastly overrated. Many of Picasso's "Blue Period"
paintings and a few of his early Cubist pieces just aren't that good.
Which is what one would expect. The guy was fresh out of art school at
the time.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Glenn Arnold" |
|
| Title: Re: OT: English Teachers and Symbolism |
13 Jan 2005 06:48:55 PM |
|
|
Nivlem wrote:
Glenn Arnold wrote:
Nivlem wrote:
Glenn Arnold wrote:
Nivlem wrote:
Glenn Arnold wrote:
Robibnikoff wrote:
"chibiabos" <chib@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:110120051755436455%chib@nospam.com...
In article <41E47C14.7040307@att.net>, Glenn Arnold
<oldnoah@att.net>
wrote:
snipo
I know some teacher like that. Of course, authors do fill their
books
with symbolism, and in some cases, we do know EXACTLY what they
meant. I
other cases, they leave it for us to figure out. Robert Frost
was once
asked what he meant by the line:
"two roads diverged in a wood and I
I took the one less traveled by
and that has made all the difference."
He answered "It means nothing, it's just an exercise in meter
and rhyme
scheme."
Well, duh, most of us can get the meaning of *that* one, but
it's pretty
pointless if it needs to be explained to us.
On the other hand there's Mellville, who put so much symbolism
into Moby
***** that you can't tell where it begins, and where it ends.
*I* think I
*know* what Melville was trying to say, but no one really knows for
sure. So anyone that gives their opinion as an absolute truth
is just
being pompous.
Glenn Arnold
Sometimes, a novel is just a novel.
I had a very silly American Lit professor who said that Moby *****
was the world's biggest phallic symbol. Oy :)
I wouldn't be surprised, actually. But I have no way of knowing.
I've never seen any reasonable opinion of what Melville meant by
the name.
But if Moby ***** himself isn't, then the chapter called "the
Cassock" definitely is. But that's explicit, not symbolic.
Now THERE's a chapter for atheists. (One more reason why I say
Moby ***** should be on any atheist's bookshelf)
Well, perhaps as a fine example of how not to write.
Your loss, I guess.
Glenn Arnold
Not really. Horrible, stilted use of language, cardboard characters,
people introduced and then dropped a couple of pages later for no
apparent reason, it just struck me as a remarkably crude and
primitive effort for literature from the 19th century.
Which is why so many successful writers of the 20th century copied a
style that he invented.
Mind you, the last time I picked up Melville was when they tried to
force it down my throat in high school.
This says it all.
I suppose it could be that Melville was merely trying to imitate
someone who couldn't write, and I've failed to appreciate the
brilliant pastiche.
A little insecure are you?
Okay, fine. I'll try again. I don't really expect to find that Moby *****
wasn't garbage, though. I thought Poe, Twain, and even Ambrose Bierce
were vastly better. Lots of supposedly classic stuff is a bit dubious if
you don't take people's word for it. Moving to art, where I admittedly
have a better education, "The Scream" is a fairly bad painting for
example. Munch is vastly overrated. Many of Picasso's "Blue Period"
paintings and a few of his early Cubist pieces just aren't that good.
Which is what one would expect. The guy was fresh out of art school at
the time.
OK, you just impressed me. Thank you. And thank yourself.
Hey, I don't like Hemingway. I've tried it and I don't like it. But
there's a big difference between saying "I don't like Hemingway" and
saying "Hemingway sucks."
Being willing to give it a second try is what makes the difference.
Maybe some day I'll pull out another Hemingway and it's finally hit. I
dunno.
I think that the real issue that started this thread, literature is what
it means to you, and no one has the right to tell you that your
interpretation is "wrong."
In fact, I tried to read Moby ***** as a teenager, and I never got it and
didn't finish it. I started it again when I was 30 and at first, it
still didn't hit me. But when it did -- WOW! I've read it five times
since (in it's entirety, plus endless browsing) and I keep finding new
stuff that just blows my mind.
Likewise for art. Munch or Picasso, for those that love the work it's
not the technical ability, it's what the painting says to you as an
individual. And you're entitled to not like it.
But if you do try Moby ***** again, try this for a mindset: Melville is
playing with your head. On purpose. And he gives you some hints that
he's going to do that in a little blurb that actually starts before the
first chapter. It's called "Etymology (Supplied by a Late consumptive
Usher to a Grammar School)."
"The pale Usher threadbare in coat, heart, body, and brain; I see him
now. He was ever dusting his old lexicons and grammars, with a queer
handkerchief, mockingly embellished with all the gay flags of all the
known nations of the world. He loved to dust his old grammars; it
somehow mildly reminded him of his mortality."
Melville is mocking himself (he's the Usher), and at the same time
pointing out that he loves to play word games with his "Lexicons and
grammars."
So if you look for double meanings and word games, it may click more easily.
Glenn Arnold
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| User: "Nivlem" |
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| Title: Re: OT: English Teachers and Symbolism |
14 Jan 2005 05:54:08 PM |
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Glenn Arnold wrote:
Nivlem wrote:
Glenn Arnold wrote:
Nivlem wrote:
Glenn Arnold wrote:
Nivlem wrote:
Glenn Arnold wrote:
Robibnikoff wrote:
"chibiabos" <chib@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:110120051755436455%chib@nospam.com...
In article <41E47C14.7040307@att.net>, Glenn Arnold
<oldnoah@att.net>
wrote:
snipo
I know some teacher like that. Of course, authors do fill
their books
with symbolism, and in some cases, we do know EXACTLY what
they meant. I
other cases, they leave it for us to figure out. Robert Frost
was once
asked what he meant by the line:
"two roads diverged in a wood and I
I took the one less traveled by
and that has made all the difference."
He answered "It means nothing, it's just an exercise in meter
and rhyme
scheme."
Well, duh, most of us can get the meaning of *that* one, but
it's pretty
pointless if it needs to be explained to us.
On the other hand there's Mellville, who put so much symbolism
into Moby
***** that you can't tell where it begins, and where it ends.
*I* think I
*know* what Melville was trying to say, but no one really
knows for
sure. So anyone that gives their opinion as an absolute truth
is just
being pompous.
Glenn Arnold
Sometimes, a novel is just a novel.
I had a very silly American Lit professor who said that Moby
***** was the world's biggest phallic symbol. Oy :)
I wouldn't be surprised, actually. But I have no way of knowing.
I've never seen any reasonable opinion of what Melville meant by
the name.
But if Moby ***** himself isn't, then the chapter called "the
Cassock" definitely is. But that's explicit, not symbolic.
Now THERE's a chapter for atheists. (One more reason why I say
Moby ***** should be on any atheist's bookshelf)
Well, perhaps as a fine example of how not to write.
Your loss, I guess.
Glenn Arnold
Not really. Horrible, stilted use of language, cardboard characters,
people introduced and then dropped a couple of pages later for no
apparent reason, it just struck me as a remarkably crude and
primitive effort for literature from the 19th century.
Which is why so many successful writers of the 20th century copied a
style that he invented.
Mind you, the last time I picked up Melville was when they tried to
force it down my throat in high school.
This says it all.
I suppose it could be that Melville was merely trying to imitate
someone who couldn't write, and I've failed to appreciate the
brilliant pastiche.
A little insecure are you?
Okay, fine. I'll try again. I don't really expect to find that Moby
***** wasn't garbage, though. I thought Poe, Twain, and even Ambrose
Bierce were vastly better. Lots of supposedly classic stuff is a bit
dubious if you don't take people's word for it. Moving to art, where I
admittedly have a better education, "The Scream" is a fairly bad
painting for example. Munch is vastly overrated. Many of Picasso's
"Blue Period" paintings and a few of his early Cubist pieces just
aren't that good. Which is what one would expect. The guy was fresh
out of art school at the time.
OK, you just impressed me. Thank you. And thank yourself.
Hey, I don't like Hemingway. I've tried it and I don't like it. But
there's a big difference between saying "I don't like Hemingway" and
saying "Hemingway sucks."
Being willing to give it a second try is what makes the difference.
Maybe some day I'll pull out another Hemingway and it's finally hit. I
dunno.
I think that the real issue that started this thread, literature is what
it means to you, and no one has the right to tell you that your
interpretation is "wrong."
In fact, I tried to read Moby ***** as a teenager, and I never got it and
didn't finish it. I started it again when I was 30 and at first, it
still didn't hit me. But when it did -- WOW! I've read it five times
since (in it's entirety, plus endless browsing) and I keep finding new
stuff that just blows my mind.
Likewise for art. Munch or Picasso, for those that love the work it's
not the technical ability, it's what the painting says to you as an
individual. And you're entitled to not like it.
For me it is the technical ability. The stuff I'm saying isn't very good
isn't very good on formal technical grounds. Not because of, say, poor
draughtsmanship. That battle was fought by Ingres and the Academy
painters in the 1840-1870 period. They lost. It's because of bad, stiff
composition, clumsy use of shape, and failure to make good use of
figure/ground interplay possibilities. The emotional statement often
isn't really a valid way to look at a painting in my book. Yeah, Munch
relied almost exclusively on emotionalism, and you can't mistake the
statement in Guernica. But if you try to get touchy feely with a
Kandinsky, you're just playing those same old silly Rohrshach blot games.
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| User: "stoney" |
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| Title: Re: OT: English Teachers and Symbolism |
15 Jan 2005 07:19:50 PM |
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On Wed, 12 Jan 2005 04:16:06 -0800, Nivlem <mlml@svn.net> wrote:
Glenn Arnold wrote:
Robibnikoff wrote:
"chibiabos" <chib@nospam.com> wrote in message
news:110120051755436455%chib@nospam.com...
In article <41E47C14.7040307@att.net>, Glenn Arnold <oldnoah@att.net>
wrote:
snipo
I know some teacher like that. Of course, authors do fill their books
with symbolism, and in some cases, we do know EXACTLY what they meant. I
other cases, they leave it for us to figure out. Robert Frost was once
asked what he meant by the line:
"two roads diverged in a wood and I
I took the one less traveled by
and that has made all the difference."
He answered "It means nothing, it's just an exercise in meter and rhyme
scheme."
Well, duh, most of us can get the meaning of *that* one, but it's pretty
pointless if it needs to be explained to us.
On the other hand there's Mellville, who put so much symbolism into Moby
***** that you can't tell where it begins, and where it ends. *I* think I
*know* what Melville was trying to say, but no one really knows for
sure. So anyone that gives their opinion as an absolute truth is just
being pompous.
Glenn Arnold
Sometimes, a novel is just a novel.
I had a very silly American Lit professor who said that Moby ***** was
the world's biggest phallic symbol. Oy :)
I wouldn't be surprised, actually. But I have no way of knowing. I've
never seen any reasonable opinion of what Melville meant by the name.
But if Moby ***** himself isn't, then the chapter called "the Cassock"
definitely is. But that's explicit, not symbolic.
Now THERE's a chapter for atheists. (One more reason why I say Moby *****
should be on any atheist's bookshelf)
Well, perhaps as a fine example of how not to write.
Watt the Dickens?.....
--
Contempt of Congress meter reading-offscale.
Hello, theocracy with a fundamentalist US Supreme
Court who will ensure church and state are joined
at the hip like clergy and altar boys.
America 1776-Jan 2001 RIP
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| User: "Daniel Kolle" |
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| Title: Re: OT: English Teachers and Symbolism |
12 Jan 2005 06:55:36 PM |
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On Tue, 11 Jan 2005 17:55:43 -0800, chibiabos <chib@nospam.com>
thought hard and said:
In article <41E47C14.7040307@att.net>, Glenn Arnold <oldnoah@att.net>
wrote:
Daniel Kolle wrote:
*sigh* Here we go again.
What is it with English teachers and that horrible, hideous
***** known as symbolism? Have they nothing better to do?
During my Honors English 11 class today, my pompous windbag of
a teacher began this elaborate lecture on some short story that we
read (the title eludes me).
"Blah poop flap THIS WAS EXACTLY WHAT THE AUTHOR MEANT blah
regurgitate foop," best described what I heard. I then asked the
teacher the following question:
"And you know this how, exactly? How you talked with the
author? Has she come up to you and told exactly what her intent was?"
She never did bother to reply. Score one for me... until she begins to
grade my papers! I was worth it though, I tell ya.
I know some teacher like that. Of course, authors do fill their books
with symbolism, and in some cases, we do know EXACTLY what they meant. I
other cases, they leave it for us to figure out. Robert Frost was once
asked what he meant by the line:
"two roads diverged in a wood and I
I took the one less traveled by
and that has made all the difference."
He answered "It means nothing, it's just an exercise in meter and rhyme
scheme."
Well, duh, most of us can get the meaning of *that* one, but it's pretty
pointless if it needs to be explained to us.
On the other hand there's Mellville, who put so much symbolism into Moby
***** that you can't tell where it begins, and where it ends. *I* think I
*know* what Melville was trying to say, but no one really knows for
sure. So anyone that gives their opinion as an absolute truth is just
being pompous.
Glenn Arnold
Sometimes, a novel is just a novel.
-chib
I told my 9th grade English teacher that The Old Man and The Sea was
just a story about an old man and a fish. It pissed her off, as I knew
it would.
--
-Daniel "Mr. Brevity" Kolle; 16 A.A. #2035
Koji Kondo, Yo-Yo Ma, Gustav Mahler, Krzysztof Penderecki, and Geirr Tveitt are my Gods.
Head of EAC Denial Department and Madly Insane Scientist.
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| User: "Mark K. Bilbo" |
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| Title: Re: OT: English Teachers and Symbolism |
11 Jan 2005 09:52:08 PM |
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In our last episode <41E47C14.7040307@att.net>, Glenn Arnold lept out of
the bushes shouting:
I know some teacher like that. Of course, authors do fill their books with
symbolism, and in some cases, we do know EXACTLY what they meant. I other
cases, they leave it for us to figure out.
And sometimes, *they don't know what they mean...
--
Mark K. Bilbo - a.a. #1423
EAC Department of Linguistic Subversion
Alt-atheism website at: http://www.alt-atheism.org
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Religion is regarded by the common people as true,
by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful."
-- Seneca the Younger
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| User: "Glenn Arnold" |
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| Title: Re: OT: English Teachers and Symbolism |
12 Jan 2005 03:46:02 PM |
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Mark K. Bilbo wrote:
In our last episode <41E47C14.7040307@att.net>, Glenn Arnold lept out of
the bushes shouting:
I know some teacher like that. Of course, authors do fill their books with
symbolism, and in some cases, we do know EXACTLY what they meant. I other
cases, they leave it for us to figure out.
And sometimes, *they don't know what they mean...
Well that's true too. I think Hemingway was like that. A lot.
Glenn Arnold
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| User: "Les Hellawell" |
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| Title: Re: OT: English Teachers and Symbolism |
12 Jan 2005 09:32:41 AM |
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On Tue, 11 Jan 2005 20:23:32 -0500, Glenn Arnold <oldnoah@att.net>
wrote:
Daniel Kolle wrote:
*sigh* Here we go again.
What is it with English teachers and that horrible, hideous
***** known as symbolism? Have they nothing better to do?
During my Honors English 11 class today, my pompous windbag of
a teacher began this elaborate lecture on some short story that we
read (the title eludes me).
"Blah poop flap THIS WAS EXACTLY WHAT THE AUTHOR MEANT blah
regurgitate foop," best described what I heard. I then asked the
teacher the following question:
"And you know this how, exactly? How you talked with the
author? Has she come up to you and told exactly what her intent was?"
She never did bother to reply. Score one for me... until she begins to
grade my papers! I was worth it though, I tell ya.
I know some teacher like that. Of course, authors do fill their books
with symbolism, and in some cases, we do know EXACTLY what they meant. I
other cases, they leave it for us to figure out. Robert Frost was once
asked what he meant by the line:
"two roads diverged in a wood and I
I took the one less traveled by
and that has made all the difference."
He answered "It means nothing, it's just an exercise in meter and rhyme
scheme."
Well, duh, most of us can get the meaning of *that* one, but it's pretty
pointless if it needs to be explained to us.
On the other hand there's Mellville, who put so much symbolism into Moby
***** that you can't tell where it begins, and where it ends. *I* think I
*know* what Melville was trying to say, but no one really knows for
sure. So anyone that gives their opinion as an absolute truth is just
being pompous.
Have you ever seen the Benny Hill sketches? In one He plays a film
maker being interviewed by a film critic on TV discussing one of
his films. The critic waxes lyrical about the change from colour to
black and white near the end and how it was symbolic of this that
and tother and Benny, in a ludicrous French accent says, 'no no
you don't understand see, I ran out of colour film and I had only
enough money to buy black and white'.
--
Les Hellawell
greetings from
YORKSHIRE - The White Rose County
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| User: "Nivlem" |
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| Title: Re: OT: English Teachers and Symbolism |
12 Jan 2005 06:20:30 AM |
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Daniel Kolle wrote:
*sigh* Here we go again.
What is it with English teachers and that horrible, hideous
***** known as symbolism? Have they nothing better to do?
During my Honors English 11 class today, my pompous windbag of
a teacher began this elaborate lecture on some short story that we
read (the title eludes me).
"Blah poop flap THIS WAS EXACTLY WHAT THE AUTHOR MEANT blah
regurgitate foop," best described what I heard. I then asked the
teacher the following question:
"And you know this how, exactly? How you talked with the
author? Has she come up to you and told exactly what her intent was?& | |
