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Topic:	Religions > Atheism
User:	"Andres64"
Date:	13 Jan 2005 03:17:48 PM
Object:	OT (For ARTD-L) Sticker shock...

Judge: Evolution stickers unconstitutional
Markers in science textbooks violated church-state separation
Thursday, January 13, 2005 Posted: 3:36 PM EST (2036 GMT)
ATLANTA, Georgia (CNN) -- A federal judge in Atlanta, Georgia, has
ruled that a suburban county school district's textbook stickers
referring to evolution as "a theory not a fact" are unconstitutional.
In ruling that the stickers violate the constitutionally mandated
separation between church and state, U.S. District Judge Clarence
Cooper ruled that labeling evolution a "theory" played on the popular
definition of the word as a "hunch" and could confuse students.
The stickers read, "This textbook contains material on evolution.
Evolution is a theory, not a fact, regarding the origin of living
things. This material should be approached with an open mind, studied
carefully and critically considered."
The disclaimers were put in the books by school officials in 2002.
"Due to the manner in which the sticker refers to evolution as a
theory, the sticker also has the effect of undermining evolution
education to the benefit of those Cobb County citizens who would prefer
that students maintain their religious beliefs regarding the origin of
life," Cooper wrote in his ruling.
Cooper said he was ruling on the "narrow issue" of the case, brought
against the Cobb County School District and Board of Education by four
parents of district students, was whether the district's stickers
violated the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment.
His conclusion, he said, "is not that the school board should not have
called evolution a theory or that the school board should have called
evolution a fact."
"Rather, the distinction of evolution as a theory rather than a fact is
the distinction that religiously motivated individuals have
specifically asked school boards to make in the most recent
anti-evolution movement, and that was exactly what parents in Cobb
County did in this case," he wrote.
"By adopting this specific language, even if at the direction of
counsel, the Cobb County School Board appears to have sided with these
religiously motivated individuals."
The sticker, he said, sends "a message that the school board agrees
with the beliefs of Christian fundamentalists and creationists."
"The school board has effectively improperly entangled itself with
religion by appearing to take a position," Cooper wrote. "Therefore,
the sticker must be removed from all of the textbooks into which it has
been placed."
Five parents of students and the American Civil Liberties Union had
challenged the stickers in court, arguing they violated the
constitutional separation of church and state.
The case was heard in federal court last November. The school system
defended the warning stickers as a show of tolerance, not religious
activism as some parents claimed.
"The Cobb County school board is doing more than accommodating
religion," Michael Manely, an attorney for the parents, argued during
the trial, according to a report from The Associated Press. "They are
promoting religious dogma to all students."
Lawyers for Cobb County, however, argued in court that the school board
had made a good-faith effort to address questions that inevitably arise
during the teaching of evolution.
"Science and religion are related and they're not mutually exclusive,"
school district attorney Linwood Gunn said in an AP report. "This
sticker was an effort to get past that conflict and to teach good
science."
According to the AP, the schools placed the stickers after more than
2,000 parents complained the textbooks presented evolution as fact,
without mentioning rival ideas about the beginnings of life.
________________________________________
Copyright 2005 CNN. All rights reserved.This material may not be
published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed. Associated Press
contributed to this report.
http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/01/13/evolution.textbooks.ruling/index.html
.

User: "Bill Bonde The chamber was in confusion, all the voices shoutingloud "
Title: Re: OT (For ARTD-L) Sticker shock...	15 Jan 2005 01:51:25 AM

Vic Sagerquist wrote:

On 14 Jan 2005, Bill Bonde ( ''The chamber was in confusion, all the
voices shouting loud'' ) dropped trou, farted, whirled, then shouted:

Al Klein wrote:

On Fri, 14 Jan 2005 14:14:45 -0800, "Bill Bonde ( ''The chamber was
in confusion, all the voices shouting loud'' )"
<stderr2@backpacker.com> said in alt.atheism:

A god that had to sacrifice itself to itself to forgive us for
doing exactly what it designed us to do, and knew we were going to
do.

How would you have done it?

Created a universe in which sin wasn't possible.

You mean a place without free will?

But, then, I'm not a petulant little child who needs vastly inferior
little creatures worshipping me.

Maybe it benefits the inferior little creatures more than it benefits
you.

Which is why the inferiority-complex-clad little creatures made up a
daddy-god.

That might be true. I think it is up to you to explain why that is
wrong. Do that right here ---->
--
Personally, I believe that 9/11 should have taught us the lesson that we
can't let these countries simmer endlessly in disillusionment without
doing something about it because people become susceptible to delusional
ideas and delusional actions. Iraq, in my view, is but the first of many
efforts, certainly not all military, to remake the very face of the
world as constitutional representative democracy.
.

User: "Al Klein"
Title: Re: OT (For ARTD-L) Sticker shock...	16 Jan 2005 06:46:04 PM

On Fri, 14 Jan 2005 23:51:25 -0800, "Bill Bonde ( ''The chamber was in
confusion, all the voices shouting loud'' )" <stderr2@backpacker.com>
said in alt.atheism:

Vic Sagerquist wrote:

Which is why the inferiority-complex-clad little creatures made up a
daddy-god.

That might be true. I think it is up to you to explain why that is
wrong. Do that right here ---->

Because there's no need of any god.
--
"If anyone comes to me, and does not hate his father, mother, wife, brothers, and sisters and even himself, he cannot be my disciple."
Luke 14:26
(random sig, produced by SigChanger)
rukbat at verizon dot net
.

User: "Al Klein"
Title: Re: OT (For ARTD-L) Sticker shock...	16 Jan 2005 06:45:34 PM

On Fri, 14 Jan 2005 22:36:53 -0800, "Bill Bonde ( ''The chamber was in
confusion, all the voices shouting loud'' )" <stderr2@backpacker.com>
said in alt.atheism:

Al Klein wrote:

On Fri, 14 Jan 2005 14:14:45 -0800, "Bill Bonde ( ''The chamber was in
confusion, all the voices shouting loud'' )" <stderr2@backpacker.com>
said in alt.atheism:

A god that had to sacrifice itself to itself to forgive us for doing
exactly what it designed us to do, and knew we were going to do.

How would you have done it?

Created a universe in which sin wasn't possible.

You mean a place without free will?

Free will isn't unlimited now, so why would limiting it one step
further make any difference?

But, then, I'm not a petulant little child who needs vastly inferior
little creatures worshipping me.

Maybe it benefits the inferior little creatures more than it benefits
you.

It doesn't benefit me to worship any god, so your assertion is
refuted.
--
There are three kinds of men:
The ones that learn by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence.
- (Will Rogers)
(random sig, produced by SigChanger)
rukbat at verizon dot net
.

User: "Kate "
Title: Re: OT (For ARTD-L) Sticker shock...	14 Jan 2005 06:09:04 PM

On Fri, 14 Jan 2005 14:14:45 -0800, "Bill Bonde ( ''The chamber was in
confusion, all the voices shouting loud'' )" <stderr2@backpacker.com>
wrote:

Al Klein wrote:

On Thu, 13 Jan 2005 20:29:27 -0600, Vic Sagerquist
<address@withheld.com> said in alt.atheism:

On 13 Jan 2005, Al Klein dropped trou, farted, whirled, then shouted:

On Thu, 13 Jan 2005 15:59:40 -0600, "Rally"
<Rally_Round@mail.removethis.newsfeeds.com> said in alt.atheism:

I have a hunch... That hunch is that the christers want Evolution
lowered to the same level of hogwash their religion is. The bastards
can't stand the fact that while Evolution, called a theory, is actually
a fact - and their religion, called a thoery, ( uhg...) is actually
*****!

You can't really say that. Since they believe that their religion is
as given them by their god, they can't be against its being *****.
Even if you could prove to them, beyond any possible doubt, that it IS
*****, they would find a way to have faith that it's the truth.

Damn it, now the room is spinning.

Here, let me give it a little push:

A god that had to sacrifice itself to itself to forgive us for doing
exactly what it designed us to do, and knew we were going to do.

How would you have done it?

If I were a god, I'd take responsibility for what I'd created and not
send down edicts through people. People cannot resist the power of
telling other people what a god said - it gives them almost as much
power as a god.
As a god, I'd make it plain to all beings that I don't tell just
certain people what my directions are. If I'm going to send a
message, everyone will hear it and hear it plainly and understand it
completely.
Anything else, is an obvious set up for the unscrupulous.
.

User: "Bill Bonde The chamber was in confusion, all the voices shoutingloud "
Title: Re: OT (For ARTD-L) Sticker shock...	15 Jan 2005 12:34:40 AM

Kate wrote:

On Fri, 14 Jan 2005 14:14:45 -0800, "Bill Bonde ( ''The chamber was in
confusion, all the voices shouting loud'' )" <stderr2@backpacker.com>
wrote:

Al Klein wrote:

On Thu, 13 Jan 2005 20:29:27 -0600, Vic Sagerquist
<address@withheld.com> said in alt.atheism:

On 13 Jan 2005, Al Klein dropped trou, farted, whirled, then shouted:

On Thu, 13 Jan 2005 15:59:40 -0600, "Rally"
<Rally_Round@mail.removethis.newsfeeds.com> said in alt.atheism:

Damn it, now the room is spinning.

Here, let me give it a little push:

A god that had to sacrifice itself to itself to forgive us for doing
exactly what it designed us to do, and knew we were going to do.

How would you have done it?

If I were a god, I'd take responsibility for what I'd created and not
send down edicts through people.

What was the point of your creation? If you were doing some double blind
study, would you reveal everything to your subjects?

People cannot resist the power of
telling other people what a god said - it gives them almost as much
power as a god.

There are a lot of things people can't resist. What's your point?

As a god, I'd make it plain to all beings that I don't tell just
certain people what my directions are. If I'm going to send a
message, everyone will hear it and hear it plainly and understand it
completely.

I think a good example of what I'm talking about would be those reality
TV shows where billionaires have contestants do stuff to see if they
should be hired to take over the company or help run the company or have
sex them on the top of a hot air balloon. Now if they told you the whole
deal up front, you might behave differently. Or if that don't grease
your skids, think about the Barber of Seville.
--
Personally, I believe that 9/11 should have taught us the lesson that we
can't let these countries simmer endlessly in disillusionment without
doing something about it because people become susceptible to delusional
ideas and delusional actions. Iraq, in my view, is but the first of many
efforts, certainly not all military, to remake the very face of the
world as constitutional representative democracy.
.

User: "Al Klein"
Title: Re: OT (For ARTD-L) Sticker shock...	16 Jan 2005 06:41:56 PM

On Fri, 14 Jan 2005 22:34:40 -0800, "Bill Bonde ( ''The chamber was in
confusion, all the voices shouting loud'' )" <stderr2@backpacker.com>
said in alt.atheism:

What was the point of your creation? If you were doing some double blind
study, would you reveal everything to your subjects?

Why would an all-knowing god have to conduct a study? "All" includes
the results of that study, so he already knows them.

If they were the omniscient creator of the universe they'd already
know how you'd react.

Or if that don't grease
your skids, think about the Barber of Seville.

Think about "omniscient creator of the universe", and then stop
bringing up irrelevant analogies that aren't the least bit analogous.
--
"...I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do.
When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand
why I dismiss yours."
- Stephen F. Roberts
(random sig, produced by SigChanger)
rukbat at verizon dot net
.

User: "Kate "
Title: Re: OT (For ARTD-L) Sticker shock...	15 Jan 2005 10:07:04 AM

On Fri, 14 Jan 2005 22:34:40 -0800, "Bill Bonde ( ''The chamber was in
confusion, all the voices shouting loud'' )" <stderr2@backpacker.com>
wrote:

Kate wrote:

On Fri, 14 Jan 2005 14:14:45 -0800, "Bill Bonde ( ''The chamber was in
confusion, all the voices shouting loud'' )" <stderr2@backpacker.com>
wrote:

Al Klein wrote:

On Thu, 13 Jan 2005 20:29:27 -0600, Vic Sagerquist
<address@withheld.com> said in alt.atheism:

On 13 Jan 2005, Al Klein dropped trou, farted, whirled, then shouted:

On Thu, 13 Jan 2005 15:59:40 -0600, "Rally"
<Rally_Round@mail.removethis.newsfeeds.com> said in alt.atheism:

Damn it, now the room is spinning.

Here, let me give it a little push:

A god that had to sacrifice itself to itself to forgive us for doing
exactly what it designed us to do, and knew we were going to do.

How would you have done it?

If I were a god, I'd take responsibility for what I'd created and not
send down edicts through people.

What was the point of your creation? If you were doing some double blind
study, would you reveal everything to your subjects?

LOL, I didn't say I would reveal everything, I just wouldn't do that
silly send it only through other people.

People cannot resist the power of
telling other people what a god said - it gives them almost as much
power as a god.

There are a lot of things people can't resist. What's your point?

That a real god would know that and not work so he was just something
that some people use for personal power.

And you missed pretty much all my point.
.

User: "Bill Bonde The chamber was in confusion, all the voices shoutingloud "
Title: Re: OT (For ARTD-L) Sticker shock...	15 Jan 2005 11:46:08 AM

Kate wrote:

On Fri, 14 Jan 2005 22:34:40 -0800, "Bill Bonde ( ''The chamber was in
confusion, all the voices shouting loud'' )" <stderr2@backpacker.com>
wrote:

Kate wrote:

On Fri, 14 Jan 2005 14:14:45 -0800, "Bill Bonde ( ''The chamber was in
confusion, all the voices shouting loud'' )" <stderr2@backpacker.com>
wrote:

Al Klein wrote:

On Thu, 13 Jan 2005 20:29:27 -0600, Vic Sagerquist
<address@withheld.com> said in alt.atheism:

On 13 Jan 2005, Al Klein dropped trou, farted, whirled, then shouted:

On Thu, 13 Jan 2005 15:59:40 -0600, "Rally"
<Rally_Round@mail.removethis.newsfeeds.com> said in alt.atheism:

Damn it, now the room is spinning.

Here, let me give it a little push:

A god that had to sacrifice itself to itself to forgive us for doing
exactly what it designed us to do, and knew we were going to do.

How would you have done it?

If I were a god, I'd take responsibility for what I'd created and not
send down edicts through people.

What was the point of your creation? If you were doing some double blind
study, would you reveal everything to your subjects?

LOL, I didn't say I would reveal everything, I just wouldn't do that
silly send it only through other people.

It wouldn't require faith to believe in a god that showed up every
Friday/Saturday/Sunday in person to give a talk at the local
mosque/synagogue/church.

People cannot resist the power of
telling other people what a god said - it gives them almost as much
power as a god.

There are a lot of things people can't resist. What's your point?

That a real god would know that and not work so he was just something
that some people use for personal power.

How? People use wealth for personal power. Shouldn't there be wealth?
How could we make it impossible to use wealth for personal power?

And you missed pretty much all my point.

So I can't get you to understand by referencing the Barber of Seville or
the Rebel Billionaire? Dios mio.
--
Personally, I believe that 9/11 should have taught us the lesson that we
can't let these countries simmer endlessly in disillusionment without
doing something about it because people become susceptible to delusional
ideas and delusional actions. Iraq, in my view, is but the first of many
efforts, certainly not all military, to remake the very face of the
world as constitutional representative democracy.
.

User: "Al Klein"
Title: Re: OT (For ARTD-L) Sticker shock...	16 Jan 2005 06:43:41 PM

On Sat, 15 Jan 2005 09:46:08 -0800, "Bill Bonde ( ''The chamber was in
confusion, all the voices shouting loud'' )" <stderr2@backpacker.com>
said in alt.atheism:

It wouldn't require faith to believe in a god that showed up every
Friday/Saturday/Sunday in person to give a talk at the local
mosque/synagogue/church.

Why would a real god need faith?

There are a lot of things people can't resist. What's your point?

That a real god would know that and not work so he was just something
that some people use for personal power.

How? People use wealth for personal power. Shouldn't there be wealth?
How could we make it impossible to use wealth for personal power?

Are you deliberately missing Kate's point?
--
"Every sensible man, every honest man, must hold the christian sect in horror. 'But what
shall we substitute in its place?' you say. What? A ferocious animal has sucked the
blood of my relatives. I tell you to rid yourselves of this beast and you ask me what
you shall put in its place?" - Voltaire
(random sig, produced by SigChanger)
rukbat at verizon dot net
.

User: "stoney"
Title: Re: OT (For ARTD-L) Sticker shock...	18 Jan 2005 07:09:55 PM

On Mon, 17 Jan 2005 00:43:41 GMT, Al Klein <rukbat@pern.invalid>
wrote:

On Sat, 15 Jan 2005 09:46:08 -0800, "Bill Bonde ( ''The chamber was in
confusion, all the voices shouting loud'' )" <stderr2@backpacker.com>
said in alt.atheism:

It wouldn't require faith to believe in a god that showed up every
Friday/Saturday/Sunday in person to give a talk at the local
mosque/synagogue/church.

Why would a real god need faith?

There are a lot of things people can't resist. What's your point?

That a real god would know that and not work so he was just something
that some people use for personal power.

How? People use wealth for personal power. Shouldn't there be wealth?
How could we make it impossible to use wealth for personal power?

Are you deliberately missing Kate's point?

Of course Bill is.
--
Contempt of Congress meter reading-offscale.
Hello, theocracy with a fundamentalist US Supreme
Court who will ensure church and state are joined
at the hip like clergy and altar boys.
America 1776-Jan 2001 RIP
.

User: "Kate "
Title: Re: OT (For ARTD-L) Sticker shock...	15 Jan 2005 11:01:06 PM

On Sat, 15 Jan 2005 09:46:08 -0800, "Bill Bonde ( ''The chamber was in
confusion, all the voices shouting loud'' )" <stderr2@backpacker.com>
wrote:

Kate wrote:

On Fri, 14 Jan 2005 22:34:40 -0800, "Bill Bonde ( ''The chamber was in
confusion, all the voices shouting loud'' )" <stderr2@backpacker.com>
wrote:

Kate wrote:

On Fri, 14 Jan 2005 14:14:45 -0800, "Bill Bonde ( ''The chamber was in
confusion, all the voices shouting loud'' )" <stderr2@backpacker.com>
wrote:

Al Klein wrote:

On Thu, 13 Jan 2005 20:29:27 -0600, Vic Sagerquist
<address@withheld.com> said in alt.atheism:

On 13 Jan 2005, Al Klein dropped trou, farted, whirled, then shouted:

On Thu, 13 Jan 2005 15:59:40 -0600, "Rally"
<Rally_Round@mail.removethis.newsfeeds.com> said in alt.atheism:

Damn it, now the room is spinning.

Here, let me give it a little push:

A god that had to sacrifice itself to itself to forgive us for doing
exactly what it designed us to do, and knew we were going to do.

How would you have done it?

If I were a god, I'd take responsibility for what I'd created and not
send down edicts through people.

What was the point of your creation? If you were doing some double blind
study, would you reveal everything to your subjects?

LOL, I didn't say I would reveal everything, I just wouldn't do that
silly send it only through other people.

It wouldn't require faith to believe in a god that showed up every
Friday/Saturday/Sunday in person to give a talk at the local
mosque/synagogue/church.

Yeah, faith is nescessary for people to grab power from other people.
You've been marketed to. There is no moral value to faith.

People cannot resist the power of
telling other people what a god said - it gives them almost as much
power as a god.

There are a lot of things people can't resist. What's your point?

That a real god would know that and not work so he was just something
that some people use for personal power.

How? People use wealth for personal power. Shouldn't there be wealth?
How could we make it impossible to use wealth for personal power?

That doesn't follow.

And you missed pretty much all my point.

So I can't get you to understand by referencing the Barber of Seville or
the Rebel Billionaire? Dios mio.

I thought you were the one who was trying to understand. I guess you
shut your mind down after you post.
.

User: "Bill Bonde The chamber was in confusion, all the voices shoutingloud "
Title: Re: OT (For ARTD-L) Sticker shock...	15 Jan 2005 11:28:04 PM

Kate wrote:

On Sat, 15 Jan 2005 09:46:08 -0800, "Bill Bonde ( ''The chamber was in
confusion, all the voices shouting loud'' )" <stderr2@backpacker.com>
wrote:

Kate wrote:

On Fri, 14 Jan 2005 22:34:40 -0800, "Bill Bonde ( ''The chamber was in
confusion, all the voices shouting loud'' )" <stderr2@backpacker.com>
wrote:

Kate wrote:

On Fri, 14 Jan 2005 14:14:45 -0800, "Bill Bonde ( ''The chamber was in
confusion, all the voices shouting loud'' )" <stderr2@backpacker.com>
wrote:

Al Klein wrote:

On Thu, 13 Jan 2005 20:29:27 -0600, Vic Sagerquist
<address@withheld.com> said in alt.atheism:

On 13 Jan 2005, Al Klein dropped trou, farted, whirled, then shouted:

On Thu, 13 Jan 2005 15:59:40 -0600, "Rally"
<Rally_Round@mail.removethis.newsfeeds.com> said in alt.atheism:

Damn it, now the room is spinning.

Here, let me give it a little push:

A god that had to sacrifice itself to itself to forgive us for doing
exactly what it designed us to do, and knew we were going to do.

How would you have done it?

If I were a god, I'd take responsibility for what I'd created and not
send down edicts through people.

What was the point of your creation? If you were doing some double blind
study, would you reveal everything to your subjects?

LOL, I didn't say I would reveal everything, I just wouldn't do that
silly send it only through other people.

It wouldn't require faith to believe in a god that showed up every
Friday/Saturday/Sunday in person to give a talk at the local
mosque/synagogue/church.

Yeah, faith is nescessary for people to grab power from other people.
You've been marketed to. There is no moral value to faith.

Where do you get this stuff?

People cannot resist the power of
telling other people what a god said - it gives them almost as much
power as a god.

There are a lot of things people can't resist. What's your point?

That a real god would know that and not work so he was just something
that some people use for personal power.

How? People use wealth for personal power. Shouldn't there be wealth?
How could we make it impossible to use wealth for personal power?

That doesn't follow.

Those were questions which you just ignored.

And you missed pretty much all my point.

So I can't get you to understand by referencing the Barber of Seville or
the Rebel Billionaire? Dios mio.

I thought you were the one who was trying to understand. I guess you
shut your mind down after you post.

Since evidently you haven't got my point yet, you must shut down before
you post.
--
Personally, I believe that 9/11 should have taught us the lesson that we
can't let these countries simmer endlessly in disillusionment without
doing something about it because people become susceptible to delusional
ideas and delusional actions. Iraq, in my view, is but the first of many
efforts, certainly not all military, to remake the very face of the
world as constitutional representative democracy.
.

User: "Kate "
Title: Re: OT (For ARTD-L) Sticker shock...	17 Jan 2005 10:32:03 AM

On Sat, 15 Jan 2005 21:28:04 -0800, "Bill Bonde ( ''The chamber was in
confusion, all the voices shouting loud'' )" <stderr2@backpacker.com>
wrote:

Kate wrote:

On Sat, 15 Jan 2005 09:46:08 -0800, "Bill Bonde ( ''The chamber was in
confusion, all the voices shouting loud'' )" <stderr2@backpacker.com>
wrote:

Kate wrote:

On Fri, 14 Jan 2005 22:34:40 -0800, "Bill Bonde ( ''The chamber was in
confusion, all the voices shouting loud'' )" <stderr2@backpacker.com>
wrote:

Kate wrote:

On Fri, 14 Jan 2005 14:14:45 -0800, "Bill Bonde ( ''The chamber was in
confusion, all the voices shouting loud'' )" <stderr2@backpacker.com>
wrote:

Al Klein wrote:

On Thu, 13 Jan 2005 20:29:27 -0600, Vic Sagerquist
<address@withheld.com> said in alt.atheism:

On 13 Jan 2005, Al Klein dropped trou, farted, whirled, then shouted:

On Thu, 13 Jan 2005 15:59:40 -0600, "Rally"
<Rally_Round@mail.removethis.newsfeeds.com> said in alt.atheism:

Damn it, now the room is spinning.

Here, let me give it a little push:

A god that had to sacrifice itself to itself to forgive us for doing
exactly what it designed us to do, and knew we were going to do.

How would you have done it?

If I were a god, I'd take responsibility for what I'd created and not
send down edicts through people.

What was the point of your creation? If you were doing some double blind
study, would you reveal everything to your subjects?

LOL, I didn't say I would reveal everything, I just wouldn't do that
silly send it only through other people.

It wouldn't require faith to believe in a god that showed up every
Friday/Saturday/Sunday in person to give a talk at the local
mosque/synagogue/church.

Yeah, faith is nescessary for people to grab power from other people.
You've been marketed to. There is no moral value to faith.

Where do you get this stuff?

Uh, from the obviousness of it.

People cannot resist the power of
telling other people what a god said - it gives them almost as much
power as a god.

There are a lot of things people can't resist. What's your point?

That a real god would know that and not work so he was just something
that some people use for personal power.

How? People use wealth for personal power. Shouldn't there be wealth?
How could we make it impossible to use wealth for personal power?

That doesn't follow.

Those were questions which you just ignored.

You have to make sense before you can be responded to. duh.

And you missed pretty much all my point.

So I can't get you to understand by referencing the Barber of Seville or
the Rebel Billionaire? Dios mio.

I thought you were the one who was trying to understand. I guess you
shut your mind down after you post.

Since evidently you haven't got my point yet, you must shut down before
you post.

You asked the question, remember? Or do you just talk and talk and
talk and never listen even to yourself?
.

User: "Bill Bonde The chamber was in confusion, all the voices shoutingloud "
Title: Re: OT (For ARTD-L) Sticker shock...	17 Jan 2005 12:42:31 PM

Kate wrote:

On Sat, 15 Jan 2005 21:28:04 -0800, "Bill Bonde ( ''The chamber was in
confusion, all the voices shouting loud'' )" <stderr2@backpacker.com>
wrote:

Kate wrote:

On Sat, 15 Jan 2005 09:46:08 -0800, "Bill Bonde ( ''The chamber was in
confusion, all the voices shouting loud'' )" <stderr2@backpacker.com>
wrote:

Kate wrote:

On Fri, 14 Jan 2005 22:34:40 -0800, "Bill Bonde ( ''The chamber was in
confusion, all the voices shouting loud'' )" <stderr2@backpacker.com>
wrote:

Kate wrote:

On Fri, 14 Jan 2005 14:14:45 -0800, "Bill Bonde ( ''The chamber was in
confusion, all the voices shouting loud'' )" <stderr2@backpacker.com>
wrote:

Al Klein wrote:

On Thu, 13 Jan 2005 20:29:27 -0600, Vic Sagerquist
<address@withheld.com> said in alt.atheism:

On 13 Jan 2005, Al Klein dropped trou, farted, whirled, then shouted:

On Thu, 13 Jan 2005 15:59:40 -0600, "Rally"
<Rally_Round@mail.removethis.newsfeeds.com> said in alt.atheism:

Damn it, now the room is spinning.

Here, let me give it a little push:

A god that had to sacrifice itself to itself to forgive us for doing
exactly what it designed us to do, and knew we were going to do.

How would you have done it?

If I were a god, I'd take responsibility for what I'd created and not
send down edicts through people.

What was the point of your creation? If you were doing some double blind
study, would you reveal everything to your subjects?

LOL, I didn't say I would reveal everything, I just wouldn't do that
silly send it only through other people.

It wouldn't require faith to believe in a god that showed up every
Friday/Saturday/Sunday in person to give a talk at the local
mosque/synagogue/church.

Yeah, faith is nescessary for people to grab power from other people.
You've been marketed to. There is no moral value to faith.

Where do you get this stuff?

Uh, from the obviousness of it.

Did the Jews have faith in Hitler? If faith is a requirement to have
power over someone, I wonder how six million Jews got murdered by
Hitler.

People cannot resist the power of
telling other people what a god said - it gives them almost as much
power as a god.

There are a lot of things people can't resist. What's your point?

That a real god would know that and not work so he was just something
that some people use for personal power.

How? People use wealth for personal power. Shouldn't there be wealth?
How could we make it impossible to use wealth for personal power?

That doesn't follow.

Those were questions which you just ignored.

You have to make sense before you can be responded to. duh.

Luckily I haven't insisted on that requirement from you before
responding. People do use wealth to gain personal power over others just
as some have used the faith of others to gain similar power. You said
there shouldn't be faith because of that threat, so should there not be
wealth either?

And you missed pretty much all my point.

So I can't get you to understand by referencing the Barber of Seville or
the Rebel Billionaire? Dios mio.

I thought you were the one who was trying to understand. I guess you
shut your mind down after you post.

Since evidently you haven't got my point yet, you must shut down before
you post.

You asked the question, remember? Or do you just talk and talk and
talk and never listen even to yourself?

I was trying to lead you by your nose ring to your shambles. You still
haven't addressed the point I was making, that a god might have a motive
that he cannot explain completely to his creation without tainting their
free will choices.
--
Personally, I believe that 9/11 should have taught us the lesson that we
can't let these countries simmer endlessly in disillusionment without
doing something about it because people become susceptible to delusional
ideas and delusional actions. Iraq, in my view, is but the first of many
efforts, certainly not all military, to remake the very face of the
world as constitutional representative democracy.
.

User: "Al Klein"
Title: Re: OT (For ARTD-L) Sticker shock...	17 Jan 2005 03:05:18 PM

On Mon, 17 Jan 2005 10:42:31 -0800, "Bill Bonde ( ''The chamber was in
confusion, all the voices shouting loud'' )" <stderr2@backpacker.com>
said in alt.atheism:

Did the Jews have faith in Hitler? If faith is a requirement to have
power over someone, I wonder how six million Jews got murdered by
Hitler.

Most Jews had faith that government works (which has nothing to do
with what Kate said - neither does your response to her.) But you
don't understand any of this, so there's no sense wasting bandwidth
explaining it to you.

You have to make sense before you can be responded to. duh.

Luckily I haven't insisted on that requirement from you before
responding.

No, you haven't - you respond to things you don't understand all the
time.

An omnipotent god "can't"? That's a self-contradiction. Omnipotent
means that he can, whatever the subject in question.
--
"If we really know Truth, we do not fear hearing falsehoods or half-truths; if we are not sure of the truth - we shudder and try to shout down every utterance." - A. J. Mims
(random sig, produced by SigChanger)
rukbat at verizon dot net
.

User: "Bill Bonde The chamber was in confusion, all the voices shoutingloud "
Title: Re: OT (For ARTD-L) Sticker shock...	17 Jan 2005 03:48:56 PM

Al Klein wrote:

On Mon, 17 Jan 2005 10:42:31 -0800, "Bill Bonde ( ''The chamber was in
confusion, all the voices shouting loud'' )" <stderr2@backpacker.com>
said in alt.atheism:

Did the Jews have faith in Hitler? If faith is a requirement to have
power over someone, I wonder how six million Jews got murdered by
Hitler.

Understand any of what? I know what I'm saying and I know that Kate is
muxed.

You have to make sense before you can be responded to. duh.

Luckily I haven't insisted on that requirement from you before
responding.

No, you haven't - you respond to things you don't understand all the
time.

Nope. I notice you can't refute anything I actually said. More cut and
claim victory Liberalism.

An omnipotent god "can't"?

While we would need a working definition for 'omnipotent', the
unstoppable meets the immovable seems to make this logically impossible
in how you seem to be applying it.

That's a self-contradiction. Omnipotent
means that he can, whatever the subject in question.

I haven't mentioned 'omnipotent', nor defined it.
--
Personally, I believe that 9/11 should have taught us the lesson that we
can't let these countries simmer endlessly in disillusionment without
doing something about it because people become susceptible to delusional
ideas and delusional actions. Iraq, in my view, is but the first of many
efforts, certainly not all military, to remake the very face of the
world as constitutional representative democracy.
.

User: "Clave"
Title: Re: OT (For ARTD-L) Sticker shock...	17 Jan 2005 04:07:58 PM

"Bill Bonde ( ''The chamber was in confusion, all the voices shouting loud'' )"
<stderr2@backpacker.com> wrote in message
news:41EC32C8.3FBAE3CD@backpacker.com...
<...>

No, you haven't - you respond to things you don't understand all the
time.

Nope...

author:"bill bonde" "what are you talking about?" 844 hits.
Jim
.

User: "Bill Bonde The chamber was in confusion, all the voices shoutingloud "
Title: Re: OT (For ARTD-L) Sticker shock...	17 Jan 2005 04:52:57 PM

Clave wrote:

"Bill Bonde ( ''The chamber was in confusion, all the voices shouting loud'' )"
<stderr2@backpacker.com> wrote in message
news:41EC32C8.3FBAE3CD@backpacker.com...

<...>

No, you haven't - you respond to things you don't understand all the
time.

Nope...

author:"bill bonde" "what are you talking about?" 844 hits.

Counting hits in the requote. In any case, "What are you talking about?"
is usually a polite way of avoiding calling the other person a liar.
--
Personally, I believe that 9/11 should have taught us the lesson that we
can't let these countries simmer endlessly in disillusionment without
doing something about it because people become susceptible to delusional
ideas and delusional actions. Iraq, in my view, is but the first of many
efforts, certainly not all military, to remake the very face of the
world as constitutional representative democracy.
.

User: "Clave"
Title: Re: OT (For ARTD-L) Sticker shock...	17 Jan 2005 05:12:23 PM

"Bill Bonde ( ''The chamber was in confusion, all the voices shouting loud'' )"
<stderr2@backpacker.com> wrote in message
news:41EC41C9.51694009@backpacker.com...

Clave wrote:

"Bill Bonde ( ''The chamber was in confusion, all the voices shouting
loud'' )"
<stderr2@backpacker.com> wrote in message
news:41EC32C8.3FBAE3CD@backpacker.com...

<...>

No, you haven't - you respond to things you don't understand all the
time.

Nope...

author:"bill bonde" "what are you talking about?" 844 hits.

Counting hits in the requote. In any case, "What are you talking about?"
is usually a polite way of avoiding calling the other person a liar.

What are you talking about?
Jim
.

User: "Al Klein"
Title: Re: OT (For ARTD-L) Sticker shock...	17 Jan 2005 07:14:36 PM

On Mon, 17 Jan 2005 13:48:56 -0800, "Bill Bonde ( ''The chamber was in
confusion, all the voices shouting loud'' )" <stderr2@backpacker.com>
said in alt.atheism:

Al Klein wrote:

On Mon, 17 Jan 2005 10:42:31 -0800, "Bill Bonde ( ''The chamber was in
confusion, all the voices shouting loud'' )" <stderr2@backpacker.com>
said in alt.atheism:

Did the Jews have faith in Hitler? If faith is a requirement to have
power over someone, I wonder how six million Jews got murdered by
Hitler.

Understand any of what? I know what I'm saying

But your question has nothing to do with what you were responding to.

You have to make sense before you can be responded to. duh.

Luckily I haven't insisted on that requirement from you before
responding.

No, you haven't - you respond to things you don't understand all the
time.

Nope. I notice you can't refute anything I actually said.

I notice that you haven't said anything relevant to the discussion.

An omnipotent god "can't"?

While we would need a working definition for 'omnipotent'

Your bible claims that your god is "all-powerful". Do you really need
a definition for "all"?

the unstoppable meets the immovable seems to make this logically impossible

That would be limiting your unlimited god.

That's a self-contradiction. Omnipotent
means that he can, whatever the subject in question.

I haven't mentioned 'omnipotent', nor defined it.

Your religion has defined your god that way, so you can either accept
it (and accept that your assertion is wrong) or claim that you're not
Christian.
Or you can keep being your dishonest self and claim that, since you
haven't defined 'omnipotent' you're correct.
--
"Does it ever amaze anyone else how little faith some heterosexuals have
in heterosexuality? It's supposed to be this god-given human instinct
that only the warped and perverted ever stray from; but, it seems, if we
once tell our straight children a message even as mild as "some people
are gay, and that's all right," that'll be enough to send lil' Suzy into
the arms of women forever. It's a wonder the race has survived this
long, really..."
-

Charles M Seaton (21 Dec 1994)
(random sig, produced by SigChanger)
rukbat at verizon dot net
.

User: "Bill Bonde The chamber was in confusion, all the voices shoutingloud "
Title: Re: OT (For ARTD-L) Sticker shock...	17 Jan 2005 08:00:49 PM

Al Klein wrote:

On Mon, 17 Jan 2005 13:48:56 -0800, "Bill Bonde ( ''The chamber was in
confusion, all the voices shouting loud'' )" <stderr2@backpacker.com>
said in alt.atheism:

Al Klein wrote:

On Mon, 17 Jan 2005 10:42:31 -0800, "Bill Bonde ( ''The chamber was in
confusion, all the voices shouting loud'' )" <stderr2@backpacker.com>
said in alt.atheism:

Did the Jews have faith in Hitler? If faith is a requirement to have
power over someone, I wonder how six million Jews got murdered by
Hitler.

Understand any of what? I know what I'm saying

But your question has nothing to do with what you were responding to.

It should be noted that you cut the requote right at the point where one
more level up would be what I was responding to. Here it is again:
#begin quote

Yeah, faith is nescessary for people to grab power from other people.
You've been marketed to. There is no moral value to faith.

Where do you get this stuff?

Uh, from the obviousness of it.

Did the Jews have faith in Hitler? If faith is a requirement to have
power over someone, I wonder how six million Jews got murdered by
Hitler.
#end quote
The poster claims that faith is required to grab power from other
people. I take a real world example where the people got their power
grabbed from them without having any 'faith' in the person grabbing the
power. Because it was a claimed requirement of grabbing power, one
example invalidates the claim. The part about me being 'marketed to' is
a non sequitur. I didn't directly comment on there being no moral value
in faith, although I think it's also a kooky claim.

You have to make sense before you can be responded to. duh.

Luckily I haven't insisted on that requirement from you before
responding.

No, you haven't - you respond to things you don't understand all the
time.

Nope. I notice you can't refute anything I actually said.

I notice that you haven't said anything relevant to the discussion.

As usual, I took on each issue and proved I was right and got back
nonsense and claims I didn't address the issue.

An omnipotent god "can't"?

While we would need a working definition for 'omnipotent'

Your bible claims that your god is "all-powerful". Do you really need
a definition for "all"?

My Bible? My God? I've never expressed a personal religious view on
usenet. "All-powerful" can mean different things in different contexts.
I'm sure it is used to refer to beings with less than infinite power to
warp logic.

the unstoppable meets the immovable seems to make this logically impossible

That would be limiting your unlimited god.

There is a logical contradiction in the unstoppable meets the immovable.
Certainly you know that this has been discussed for centuries by
theologians and philosophers.

That's a self-contradiction. Omnipotent
means that he can, whatever the subject in question.

I haven't mentioned 'omnipotent', nor defined it.

Your religion has defined your god that way, so you can either accept
it (and accept that your assertion is wrong) or claim that you're not
Christian.

On usenet, I've never once claimed to be or not be religious.

Or you can keep being your dishonest self and claim that, since you
haven't defined 'omnipotent' you're correct.

The reason I don't know what you are talking about is the fact that I've
not taken any online position on the verisimilitude of the Christian
faith.
--
Personally, I believe that 9/11 should have taught us the lesson that we
can't let these countries simmer endlessly in disillusionment without
doing something about it because people become susceptible to delusional
ideas and delusional actions. Iraq, in my view, is but the first of many
efforts, certainly not all military, to remake the very face of the
world as constitutional representative democracy.
.

User: "Al Klein"
Title: Re: OT (For ARTD-L) Sticker shock...	18 Jan 2005 11:41:00 AM

On Mon, 17 Jan 2005 18:00:49 -0800, "Bill Bonde ( ''The chamber was in
confusion, all the voices shouting loud'' )" <stderr2@backpacker.com>
said in alt.atheism:

Al Klein wrote:

But your question has nothing to do with what you were responding to.

It should be noted that you cut the requote right at the point where one
more level up would be what I was responding to.

So you skip a few lines of the original post before typing your
response? What possible sense does that make?
Here it is again:

#begin quote

Yeah, faith is nescessary for people to grab power from other people.
You've been marketed to. There is no moral value to faith.

Where do you get this stuff?

Uh, from the obviousness of it.

Did the Jews have faith in Hitler? If faith is a requirement to have
power over someone, I wonder how six million Jews got murdered by
Hitler.
#end quote

Showing that you don't understand the original claim.

The poster claims that faith is required to grab power from other
people. I take a real world example where the people got their power
grabbed from them without having any 'faith' in the person grabbing the
power.

Where does it say, above, "'faith' in the person grabbing the power"?

Christianity claims that, since its god created logic, it's not
limited by logic.

the unstoppable meets the immovable seems to make this logically impossible

That would be limiting your unlimited god.

There is a logical contradiction in the unstoppable meets the immovable.

Which wouldn't affect a god not limited by logic.

Certainly you know that this has been discussed for centuries by
theologians and philosophers.

Of course. They first define a god not limited by logic, then show
that certain things don't make sense because they're not logical. I
wouldn't expect Christianity to NOT use self-contradiction in its
desperate attempts to shore up its assertions.

On usenet, I've never once claimed to be or not be religious.

But your posts scream "Christian". We know you by your fruits.

Or you can keep being your dishonest self and claim that, since you
haven't defined 'omnipotent' you're correct.

The reason I don't know what you are talking about is the fact that I've
not taken any online position on the verisimilitude of the Christian
faith.

You have, just indirectly. We're not all deaf and blind, Bill. When
you scream "I'm a Christian", we understand what you're saying, even
if you don't understand that you've said it.
Maybe you tell yourself that you're no longer whatever you were raised
as, but your Christianity shows through your posts.
--
"I received your letter of June 10th. I have never talked to a Jesuit
priest in my life and I am astonished by the audacity to tell such lies
about me. From the viewpoint of a Jesuit priest I am, of course, and
have always been an atheist."
- Albert Einstein to Guy H. Raner Jr, July 2, 1945,
responding to a rumor that a Jesuit priest had caused Einstein
to convert from atheism. Article by Michael R. Gilmore in Skeptic
magazine, Vol. 5, No. 2, 1997
(random sig, produced by SigChanger)
rukbat at verizon dot net
.

User: "Bill Bonde The chamber was in confusion, all the voices shoutingloud "
Title: Re: OT (For ARTD-L) Sticker shock...	19 Jan 2005 12:25:54 AM

Al Klein wrote:

On Mon, 17 Jan 2005 18:00:49 -0800, "Bill Bonde ( ''The chamber was in
confusion, all the voices shouting loud'' )" <stderr2@backpacker.com>
said in alt.atheism:

Al Klein wrote:

But your question has nothing to do with what you were responding to.

It should be noted that you cut the requote right at the point where one
more level up would be what I was responding to.

So you skip a few lines of the original post before typing your
response? What possible sense does that make?

Here it is again:

#begin quote

Yeah, faith is nescessary for people to grab power from other people.
You've been marketed to. There is no moral value to faith.

Where do you get this stuff?

Uh, from the obviousness of it.

Did the Jews have faith in Hitler? If faith is a requirement to have
power over someone, I wonder how six million Jews got murdered by
Hitler.
#end quote

Showing that you don't understand the original claim.

Here it is right here: "...faith is necessary for people to grab power
from other people." The Jews didn't have faith in Hitler. They had their
power stolen from them. Need I provide more examples of oppressed people
who had no faith in those who oppressed them yet that didn't stop the
oppression?

Where does it say, above, "'faith' in the person grabbing the power"?

"...faith is necessary for people to grab power from other people." And
the context even limits 'faith' to the people being conned by having
some sort of religious faith in the teachings of those who would take
power from them.

Christianity claims that, since its god created logic, it's not
limited by logic.

I don't know the answer to that. I don't believe that's in the Bible. In
the context of intelligent design, we are not talking about such a being
anyway.

the unstoppable meets the immovable seems to make this logically impossible

That would be limiting your unlimited god.

There is a logical contradiction in the unstoppable meets the immovable.

Which wouldn't affect a god not limited by logic.

And maybe it doesn't affect him. It would seem like time and space are
not connected but they are, so maybe unstoppable could move the
immovable while the immovable didn't move. That may seem odd but if the
unstoppable only didn't stop in its universe and the immovable only it
its universe, then logic would not be broken down.

Certainly you know that this has been discussed for centuries by
theologians and philosophers.

There isn't any immovable X or unstoppable Y in the physical universe.
These are logical constructs. The exact meaning of 'all-powerful'
certainly isn't defined rigorously in the Bible. Human kings were often
claimed to be 'all-powerful'.
--
Personally, I believe that 9/11 should have taught us the lesson that we
can't let these countries simmer endlessly in disillusionment without
doing something about it because people become susceptible to delusional
ideas and delusional actions. Iraq, in my view, is but the first of many
efforts, certainly not all military, to remake the very face of the
world as constitutional representative democracy.
.

User: "Al Klein"
Title: Re: OT (For ARTD-L) Sticker shock...	19 Jan 2005 01:07:35 PM

On Tue, 18 Jan 2005 22:25:54 -0800, "Bill Bonde ( ''The chamber was in
confusion, all the voices shouting loud'' )" <stderr2@backpacker.com>
said in alt.atheism:

Al Klein wrote:

Christianity claims that, since its god created logic, it's not
limited by logic.

I don't know the answer to that. I don't believe that's in the Bible.

I didn't say it is. Almost none of Christianity is in the bible, even
limiting "the bible" to the NT.

In the context of intelligent design, we are not talking about such a being
anyway.

Christianity's god is such a being, so Christian ID is talking about
such a being. You can't just divorce yourself from parts of the
religion that happen to cause problems for your argument.

Which wouldn't affect a god not limited by logic.

And maybe it doesn't affect him.

Then he can't exist. (Neither an omnipotent god limited by logic nor
one not limited by logic can exist.)

Certainly you know that this has been discussed for centuries by
theologians and philosophers.

There isn't any immovable X or unstoppable Y in the physical universe.

But there is a god defined by Christianity in such manner that it
can't exist.
--
"I've heard the call. I believe God wants me to run for president."
--George W. Bush, quoted in George Magazine, September, 2000
"God gave the savior to the German people. We have faith,
deep and unshakeable faith, that he was sent to us by
God to save Germany."
--Hermann Goering, speaking of Hitler
(random sig, produced by SigChanger)
rukbat at verizon dot net
.

User: "Bill Bonde The chamber was in confusion, all the voices shoutingloud "
Title: Re: OT (For ARTD-L) Sticker shock...	19 Jan 2005 05:06:25 PM

Al Klein wrote:

On Tue, 18 Jan 2005 22:25:54 -0800, "Bill Bonde ( ''The chamber was in
confusion, all the voices shouting loud'' )" <stderr2@backpacker.com>
said in alt.atheism:

Al Klein wrote:

Christianity claims that, since its god created logic, it's not
limited by logic.

I don't know the answer to that. I don't believe that's in the Bible.

I didn't say it is. Almost none of Christianity is in the bible, even
limiting "the bible" to the NT.

The only sacred text of Christianity is the Bible.

In the context of intelligent design, we are not talking about such a being
anyway.

Christianity's god is such a being, so Christian ID is talking about
such a being.

Scientific ID has nothing to do with religious beliefs.

You can't just divorce yourself from parts of the
religion that happen to cause problems for your argument.

What problems are those? Are you saying because some people might define
'all-powerful' to include the ability to change the universe of logic,
that disproves intelligent design? Do you ascribe such logic warping to
yourself?

Which wouldn't affect a god not limited by logic.

And maybe it doesn't affect him.

Then he can't exist. (Neither an omnipotent god limited by logic nor
one not limited by logic can exist.)

Is this the 'logic' you used to become an atheist? Good grief.

Certainly you know that this has been discussed for centuries by
theologians and philosophers.

There isn't any immovable X or unstoppable Y in the physical universe.

But there is a god defined by Christianity in such manner that it
can't exist.

I'd have to see such a definition.
--
Personally, I believe that 9/11 should have taught us the lesson that we
can't let these countries simmer endlessly in disillusionment without
doing something about it because people become susceptible to delusional
ideas and delusional actions. Iraq, in my view, is but the first of many
efforts, certainly not all military, to remake the very face of the
world as constitutional representative democracy.
.

User: "Al Klein"
Title: Re: OT (For ARTD-L) Sticker shock...	19 Jan 2005 06:00:36 PM

On Wed, 19 Jan 2005 15:06:25 -0800, "Bill Bonde ( ''The chamber was in
confusion, all the voices shouting loud'' )" <stderr2@backpacker.com>
said in alt.atheism:

Al Klein wrote:

On Tue, 18 Jan 2005 22:25:54 -0800, "Bill Bonde ( ''The chamber was in
confusion, all the voices shouting loud'' )" <stderr2@backpacker.com>
said in alt.atheism:

Al Klein wrote:

Christianity claims that, since its god created logic, it's not
limited by logic.

I don't know the answer to that. I don't believe that's in the Bible.

I didn't say it is. Almost none of Christianity is in the bible, even
limiting "the bible" to the NT.

The only sacred text of Christianity is the Bible.

Nice assertion, but almost none of Christianity is in the bible.

In the context of intelligent design, we are not talking about such a being
anyway.

Christianity's god is such a being, so Christian ID is talking about
such a being.

Scientific ID has nothing to do with religious beliefs.

"The designer" is a religious belief.

You can't just divorce yourself from parts of the
religion that happen to cause problems for your argument.

What problems are those?

First, that ID is purely a religious concept. There's not a shred of
science in it. That's all that's needed to keep it out of not only
science classes, but public schools.

Are you saying because some people might define
'all-powerful' to include the ability to change the universe of logic,
that disproves intelligent design?

No. I'm saying that Christianity defines its god in such manner as to
make it impossible.

Do you ascribe such logic warping to yourself?

I'm not the omnipotent, omniscient creator of the universe, am I?

Which wouldn't affect a god not limited by logic.

And maybe it doesn't affect him.

Then he can't exist. (Neither an omnipotent god limited by logic nor
one not limited by logic can exist.)

Is this the 'logic' you used to become an atheist?

I didn't "use" anything to "become" an atheist. I was born one and
never saw any reason to change. Unlike you, I had sane parents, so I
was never subjected to theistic brainwashing as a child.

But there is a god defined by Christianity in such manner that it
can't exist.

I'd have to see such a definition.

Omniscient creator of the universe that granted us free will.
Omnipotent.
The Problem from Evil.
--
"If knowledge can create problems, it is not through ignorance that we can
solve them."
-Isaac Asimov
(random sig, produced by SigChanger)
rukbat at verizon dot net
.

User: "Kate "
Title: Re: OT (For ARTD-L) Sticker shock...	18 Jan 2005 09:09:07 AM

On Mon, 17 Jan 2005 10:42:31 -0800, "Bill Bonde ( ''The chamber was in
confusion, all the voices shouting loud'' )" <stderr2@backpacker.com>
wrote:

Kate wrote:

On Sat, 15 Jan 2005 21:28:04 -0800, "Bill Bonde ( ''The chamber was in
confusion, all the voices shouting loud'' )" <stderr2@backpacker.com>
wrote:

Kate wrote:

On Sat, 15 Jan 2005 09:46:08 -0800, "Bill Bonde ( ''The chamber was in
confusion, all the voices shouting loud'' )" <stderr2@backpacker.com>
wrote:

Kate wrote:

On Fri, 14 Jan 2005 22:34:40 -0800, "Bill Bonde ( ''The chamber was in
confusion, all the voices shouting loud'' )" <stderr2@backpacker.com>
wrote:

Kate wrote:

On Fri, 14 Jan 2005 14:14:45 -0800, "Bill Bonde ( ''The chamber was in
confusion, all the voices shouting loud'' )" <stderr2@backpacker.com>
wrote:

Al Klein wrote:

On Thu, 13 Jan 2005 20:29:27 -0600, Vic Sagerquist
<address@withheld.com> said in alt.atheism:

On 13 Jan 2005, Al Klein dropped trou, farted, whirled, then shouted:

On Thu, 13 Jan 2005 15:59:40 -0600, "Rally"
<Rally_Round@mail.removethis.newsfeeds.com> said in alt.atheism: