Religions > Atheism > OT: For Maff: Palestinian Gunman Kills Two as Family Celebrates Jewish New Year
| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"raven1" |
| Date: |
27 Sep 2003 01:06:38 PM |
| Object: |
OT: For Maff: Palestinian Gunman Kills Two as Family Celebrates Jewish New Year |
Two can play your game, Maff.
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/09/27/international/middleeast/27MIDE.html?th
Gunman Kills Two as Family Celebrates Jewish New Year
By GREG MYRE
Published: September 27, 2003
JERUSALEM, Sept. 26 — A Palestinian gunman killed two people, one of
them a baby girl, and wounded two more when he opened fire tonight on
an Israeli family celebrating the Jewish New Year at their home in a
settlement outside the West Bank town of Hebron. Israeli troops rushed
to the scene and fatally shot the attacker.
Israeli authorities expressed outrage at the attack, which occurred as
Jewish families were holding the traditional feast at the beginning of
the new year's holiday, Rosh Hashana, which began at sundown tonight.
"This terrorist knew people would be sitting down to dinner at this
time," Capt. Jacob Dallal, a spokesman for the Israeli military, said
of the shooting, which occurred about 9 p.m.
In the West Bank, the gunman, who had an M-16 automatic rifle, knocked
on the door of a home in the Israeli settlement of Negohot, Captain
Dallal said. A man who was a guest at the home opened the door and was
gunned down. The baby girl, who lived at the home, was also shot and
killed, the captain said. The girl's parents were wounded before a
nearby military unit shot the attacker.
The military said it did not have the girl's age, but Israeli news
reports said she was less than a year old.
Palestinian gunmen in the Hebron area have carried out repeated
attacks on Friday nights, when Israeli families gather for large
family meals, Captain Dallal added.
No group immediately claimed responsibility. Israeli military forces,
however, have carried out many raids in Hebron in recent weeks,
killing several militants from the Hamas and Islamic Jihad factions,
which vowed to strike back.
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| User: "Conrad Knauer" |
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| Title: Re: OT: For Maff: Palestinian Gunman Kills Two as Family Celebrates Jewish New Year |
28 Sep 2003 12:00:11 AM |
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In article <adkbnv0qqtassr616463d90fvstvvoeqp7@4ax.com>,
says...
Two can play your game, Maff.
Spin the wheel! Its the only game in town where everyone loses!
http://gush-shalom.org/actions/target_eng.html
CK
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| User: "raven1" |
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| Title: Re: OT: For Maff: Palestinian Gunman Kills Two as Family Celebrates Jewish New Year |
28 Sep 2003 12:18:29 AM |
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On Sun, 28 Sep 2003 05:00:11 GMT, Conrad Knauer
<saskatoon.atheist@SPAM.ca> wrote:
In article <adkbnv0qqtassr616463d90fvstvvoeqp7@4ax.com>,
says...
Two can play your game, Maff.
Spin the wheel! Its the only game in town where everyone loses!
That's as may be; as I said above, I'm sick of hearing only one side
of the story from our self-appointed Minister of Propaganda. The
situation simply isn't "four legs good, two legs bad", as much as Maff
(and a distressing number of others here) seem to think it is.
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| User: "Sean C" |
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| Title: Re: OT: For Maff: Palestinian Gunman Kills Two as Family Celebrates Jewish New Year |
28 Sep 2003 01:03:46 AM |
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In article <bircnv426caubta6b0tp6p3t4k57cfu2ct@4ax.com>, raven1
<psychedelephant@flashmail.com> wrote:
Spin the wheel! Its the only game in town where everyone loses!
That's as may be; as I said above, I'm sick of hearing only one side
of the story from our self-appointed Minister of Propaganda. The
situation simply isn't "four legs good, two legs bad", as much as Maff
(and a distressing number of others here) seem to think it is.
Could you give a specific example of what you're talking about?
Sean C
----== Posted via Newsfeed.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeed.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! >100,000 Newsgroups
---= 19 East/West-Coast Specialized Servers - Total Privacy via Encryption =---
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| User: "raven1" |
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| Title: Re: OT: For Maff: Palestinian Gunman Kills Two as Family Celebrates Jewish New Year |
28 Sep 2003 01:40:53 AM |
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On Sun, 28 Sep 2003 02:03:46 -0400, Sean C <redhawk@hvc.rr.com> wrote:
In article <bircnv426caubta6b0tp6p3t4k57cfu2ct@4ax.com>, raven1
<psychedelephant@flashmail.com> wrote:
Spin the wheel! Its the only game in town where everyone loses!
That's as may be; as I said above, I'm sick of hearing only one side
of the story from our self-appointed Minister of Propaganda. The
situation simply isn't "four legs good, two legs bad", as much as Maff
(and a distressing number of others here) seem to think it is.
Could you give a specific example of what you're talking about?
I'm talking about the fact that Maff (and, as I mentioned, a
distressing number of posters here) will take Israel to task on every
possible occasion (often deservedly), but are conspicuous in their
silence when Palestinian militants murder Israeli civilians. It's a
hypocritical double standard, and I'm sick of it. Atrocities by one
side do not excuse atrocities by the other, and to constantly rail
against atrocities by one side while systematically ignoring
atrocities by the other is obscene.
IMO, of course.
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| User: "Sean C" |
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| Title: Re: OT: For Maff: Palestinian Gunman Kills Two as Family Celebrates Jewish New Year |
28 Sep 2003 11:55:27 AM |
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In article <jj0dnvs12ndelsnjof19h9r40gi0jpqc7o@4ax.com>, raven1
<psychedelephant@flashmail.com> wrote:
On Sun, 28 Sep 2003 02:03:46 -0400, Sean C <redhawk@hvc.rr.com> wrote:
In article <bircnv426caubta6b0tp6p3t4k57cfu2ct@4ax.com>, raven1
<psychedelephant@flashmail.com> wrote:
Spin the wheel! Its the only game in town where everyone loses!
That's as may be; as I said above, I'm sick of hearing only one side
of the story from our self-appointed Minister of Propaganda. The
situation simply isn't "four legs good, two legs bad", as much as Maff
(and a distressing number of others here) seem to think it is.
Could you give a specific example of what you're talking about?
I'm talking about the fact that Maff (and, as I mentioned, a
distressing number of posters here) will take Israel to task on every
possible occasion (often deservedly), but are conspicuous in their
silence when Palestinian militants murder Israeli civilians. It's a
hypocritical double standard, and I'm sick of it. Atrocities by one
side do not excuse atrocities by the other, and to constantly rail
against atrocities by one side while systematically ignoring
atrocities by the other is obscene.
IMO, of course.
Again, you'll have to give specific examples. I don't see this bias you
talk about. Most people in this ng are opposed to *both* Israeli
attacks against innocent civilians and Palestinian suicide bombings.
They are mostly opposed to using religious ignorance and bigotry to
back a claim to a piece of property, or to justify the slaughter of
innocents. If anything, I have seen the opposite of what you are
alleging: that any attempt to portray the Palestinian side of things is
seen as "bias" against Israel or de facto support of terrorism. As has
been pointed out, the pro-Israel viewpoint is well-represented in the
media and in our government and hardly needs repetition here. It's the
other side of the coin that needs a little attention.
Sean C
----== Posted via Newsfeed.Com - Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==----
http://www.newsfeed.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! >100,000 Newsgroups
---= 19 East/West-Coast Specialized Servers - Total Privacy via Encryption =---
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| User: "Fear gan dia" |
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| Title: Re: OT: For Maff: Palestinian Gunman Kills Two as Family Celebrates Jewish New Year |
28 Sep 2003 04:39:20 PM |
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Verily verily I say unto you, it is written by Sean C <redhawk@hvc.rr.com>
in <280920031255275955%redhawk@hvc.rr.com>:
# In article <jj0dnvs12ndelsnjof19h9r40gi0jpqc7o@4ax.com>, raven1
# <psychedelephant@flashmail.com> wrote:
#
# > On Sun, 28 Sep 2003 02:03:46 -0400, Sean C <redhawk@hvc.rr.com> wrote:
# >
# > >In article <bircnv426caubta6b0tp6p3t4k57cfu2ct@4ax.com>, raven1
# > ><psychedelephant@flashmail.com> wrote:
# > >
# > >> >Spin the wheel! Its the only game in town where everyone loses!
# > >>
# > >> That's as may be; as I said above, I'm sick of hearing only one side
# > >> of the story from our self-appointed Minister of Propaganda. The
# > >> situation simply isn't "four legs good, two legs bad", as much as Maff
# > >> (and a distressing number of others here) seem to think it is.
# > >
# > >Could you give a specific example of what you're talking about?
# >
# > I'm talking about the fact that Maff (and, as I mentioned, a
# > distressing number of posters here) will take Israel to task on every
# > possible occasion (often deservedly), but are conspicuous in their
# > silence when Palestinian militants murder Israeli civilians. It's a
# > hypocritical double standard, and I'm sick of it. Atrocities by one
# > side do not excuse atrocities by the other, and to constantly rail
# > against atrocities by one side while systematically ignoring
# > atrocities by the other is obscene.
# >
# > IMO, of course.
#
# Again, you'll have to give specific examples. I don't see this bias you
# talk about. Most people in this ng are opposed to *both* Israeli
# attacks against innocent civilians and Palestinian suicide bombings.
# They are mostly opposed to using religious ignorance and bigotry to
# back a claim to a piece of property, or to justify the slaughter of
# innocents. If anything, I have seen the opposite of what you are
# alleging: that any attempt to portray the Palestinian side of things is
# seen as "bias" against Israel or de facto support of terrorism. As has
# been pointed out, the pro-Israel viewpoint is well-represented in the
# media and in our government and hardly needs repetition here. It's the
# other side of the coin that needs a little attention.
Bloody well said. I would just add the Israel gets attacked
because of its hypocrisy. It claims the moral high ground,
and believes it can do no wrong even while its helicopter
gunships fire missiles into crowded markets to take out one
suspected Hamas member and kill a score of innocent civilians
at the same time. It is morally indistinguishable from the
suicide bombers, just richer and more powerful as well as
more sanctimonious and self-satisfied.
--
Fear gan dia ### http://goddamliberal.blogspot.com
DUMP THE CHIMP! Re-elect a Democrat in '04.
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| User: "Rev. Karl E. Taylor" |
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| Title: Re: OT: For Maff: Palestinian Gunman Kills Two as Family CelebratesJewish New Year |
28 Sep 2003 11:38:05 AM |
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raven1 wrote:
On Sun, 28 Sep 2003 02:03:46 -0400, Sean C <redhawk@hvc.rr.com> wrote:
In article <bircnv426caubta6b0tp6p3t4k57cfu2ct@4ax.com>, raven1
<psychedelephant@flashmail.com> wrote:
Spin the wheel! Its the only game in town where everyone loses!
That's as may be; as I said above, I'm sick of hearing only one side
of the story from our self-appointed Minister of Propaganda. The
situation simply isn't "four legs good, two legs bad", as much as Maff
(and a distressing number of others here) seem to think it is.
Could you give a specific example of what you're talking about?
I'm talking about the fact that Maff (and, as I mentioned, a
distressing number of posters here) will take Israel to task on every
possible occasion (often deservedly), but are conspicuous in their
silence when Palestinian militants murder Israeli civilians. It's a
hypocritical double standard, and I'm sick of it. Atrocities by one
side do not excuse atrocities by the other, and to constantly rail
against atrocities by one side while systematically ignoring
atrocities by the other is obscene.
IMO, of course.
Then here is another way to look at it, that is not mentioned in polite
company, but probably sits in the back of the minds of the most rational
people.
The 2 ***** step sons, of a mythical person, have been battling it out
over the same piece of dirt for about 6000 years. Neither side gaining
or waning in the war for the same chunk of useless land. But constantly
reminding us that try as it might, evolution does sometimes fail.
The best way to handle this situation is actually very easy, but won't
be acted upon. Back out, let them kill each other off, then go in and
clean up. Since both sides are fighting this war, "in the name of god /
allah", no amount of diplomacy, pleading, threats, aid, sanctions, or
prayer, will change the situation. They are both right, in their own
minds, and both wrong, on the world stage.
Mythology drives men to madness, with murder and sadness the only outcome.
--
There are none more ignorant and useless,
than they that seek answers on their knees,
with their eyes closed.
____________________________________________________________________
Rev. Karl E. Taylor
A.A #1143 ULC Minister
Home School Educator for Computer Science
Apostle of Dr. Lao EAC: Virgin Conversion Unit Director
____________________________________________________________________
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| User: "Craig McDonald" |
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| Title: Re: OT: For Maff: Palestinian Gunman Kills Two as Family Celebrates Jewish New Year |
28 Sep 2003 07:13:35 AM |
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On Sun, 28 Sep 2003 01:18:29 -0400, raven1
<> wrote:
On Sun, 28 Sep 2003 05:00:11 GMT, Conrad Knauer
<saskatoon.atheist@SPAM.ca> wrote:
In article <adkbnv0qqtassr616463d90fvstvvoeqp7@4ax.com>,
says...
Two can play your game, Maff.
Spin the wheel! Its the only game in town where everyone loses!
That's as may be; as I said above, I'm sick of hearing only one side
of the story from our self-appointed Minister of Propaganda. The
situation simply isn't "four legs good, two legs bad", as much as Maff
(and a distressing number of others here) seem to think it is.
The "one side" that sickens you, is the quiet voice of a few
individuals. Are you equally sickened by the media's coverage of
events in the Middle-East?
How many people (who have expressed a contrary view) have stated that
the Palestinians are blameless in this conflict? There are murdering
thugs on both sides... but only one side receives the aid, support and
succor of the world's only superpower and its fawning media.
Red Celt
aa#883
--
Boy, I've never seen an issue so divisive. It's like a civil war,
isn't it? Even amongst my friends, who are all very intelligent
people, they are totally divided on abortion. Some of my friends, for
instance, think these pro-life people are annoying idiots. Others of
my friends think these pro-life people are evil fucks.
How are we going to come to a consensus?
You want to hear the arguments around my house.
"They're annoying!"
"They're idiots!"
"They're evil!"
"They're fucks!"
Brothers, sisters come together! Can't we once just join hands and
think of them as evil annoying idiot fucks?
-- the late great Bill Hicks
"There are bits of banana peel floating up Belfast Lough that know
more about Irish politics than our JTEM." -- Chesney Christ
.
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| User: "raven1" |
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| Title: Re: OT: For Maff: Palestinian Gunman Kills Two as Family Celebrates Jewish New Year |
28 Sep 2003 09:52:08 AM |
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On Sun, 28 Sep 2003 13:13:35 +0100, Craig McDonald
<rcd@craigmcdonald.com> wrote:
On Sun, 28 Sep 2003 01:18:29 -0400, raven1
< > wrote:
On Sun, 28 Sep 2003 05:00:11 GMT, Conrad Knauer
<saskatoon.atheist@SPAM.ca> wrote:
In article <adkbnv0qqtassr616463d90fvstvvoeqp7@4ax.com>,
says...
Two can play your game, Maff.
Spin the wheel! Its the only game in town where everyone loses!
That's as may be; as I said above, I'm sick of hearing only one side
of the story from our self-appointed Minister of Propaganda. The
situation simply isn't "four legs good, two legs bad", as much as Maff
(and a distressing number of others here) seem to think it is.
The "one side" that sickens you, is the quiet voice of a few
individuals. Are you equally sickened by the media's coverage of
events in the Middle-East?
Were I referring to the media, I would have mentioned the media. I'm
talking about individuals on this NG.
How many people (who have expressed a contrary view) have stated that
the Palestinians are blameless in this conflict?
Let Israel bulldoze the house of a Palestinian suicide bomber, and the
howls of outrage on this NG are deafening, but the silence at the
suicide bomber's actions themselves is equally deafening. It's a
hypocritical double standard, and I'm tired of it.
There are murdering
thugs on both sides...
Yep, but you'd never know it from reading this NG.
but only one side receives the aid, support and
succor of the world's only superpower and its fawning media.
Which has exactly zero to do with what I'm talking about.
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| User: "Craig McDonald" |
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| Title: Re: OT: For Maff: Palestinian Gunman Kills Two as Family Celebrates Jewish New Year |
27 Sep 2003 05:58:27 PM |
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On Sat, 27 Sep 2003 14:06:38 -0400, raven1
<psychedelephant@flashmail.com> wrote:
Two can play your game, Maff.
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/09/27/international/middleeast/27MIDE.html?th
Gunman Kills Two as Family Celebrates Jewish New Year
By GREG MYRE
<snip>
Are you suggesting that no Palestinian babies/children have been the
victims of Israeli gunfire, rockets or bulldozers?
Red Celt
aa#883
--
Boy, I've never seen an issue so divisive. It's like a civil war,
isn't it? Even amongst my friends, who are all very intelligent
people, they are totally divided on abortion. Some of my friends, for
instance, think these pro-life people are annoying idiots. Others of
my friends think these pro-life people are evil fucks.
How are we going to come to a consensus?
You want to hear the arguments around my house.
"They're annoying!"
"They're idiots!"
"They're evil!"
"They're fucks!"
Brothers, sisters come together! Can't we once just join hands and
think of them as evil annoying idiot fucks?
-- the late great Bill Hicks
"There are bits of banana peel floating up Belfast Lough that know
more about Irish politics than our JTEM." -- Chesney Christ
.
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| User: "raven1" |
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| Title: Re: OT: For Maff: Palestinian Gunman Kills Two as Family Celebrates Jewish New Year |
27 Sep 2003 11:43:44 PM |
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On Sat, 27 Sep 2003 23:58:27 +0100, Craig McDonald
<rcd@craigmcdonald.com> wrote:
On Sat, 27 Sep 2003 14:06:38 -0400, raven1
<psychedelephant@flashmail.com> wrote:
Two can play your game, Maff.
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/09/27/international/middleeast/27MIDE.html?th
Gunman Kills Two as Family Celebrates Jewish New Year
By GREG MYRE
<snip>
Are you suggesting that no Palestinian babies/children have been the
victims of Israeli gunfire, rockets or bulldozers?
Of course not. I'm just sick of hearing only one side of the story
from our Minister of Propaganda.
.
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| User: "Craig McDonald" |
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| Title: Re: OT: For Maff: Palestinian Gunman Kills Two as Family Celebrates Jewish New Year |
28 Sep 2003 07:07:04 AM |
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On Sun, 28 Sep 2003 00:43:44 -0400, raven1
<psychedelephant@flashmail.com> wrote:
On Sat, 27 Sep 2003 23:58:27 +0100, Craig McDonald
<rcd@craigmcdonald.com> wrote:
On Sat, 27 Sep 2003 14:06:38 -0400, raven1
<psychedelephant@flashmail.com> wrote:
Two can play your game, Maff.
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/09/27/international/middleeast/27MIDE.html?th
Gunman Kills Two as Family Celebrates Jewish New Year
By GREG MYRE
<snip>
Are you suggesting that no Palestinian babies/children have been the
victims of Israeli gunfire, rockets or bulldozers?
Of course not. I'm just sick of hearing only one side of the story
from our Minister of Propaganda.
Then I'm guessing you never watch CNN/Fox/ABC News/Any Western news
media?
If anything, it is Maff who is doing his little bit to represent the
"other" side of the coin. There is no shortage of mass-media
representation of the "poor misunderstood" Israelis.
Red Celt
aa#883
--
Boy, I've never seen an issue so divisive. It's like a civil war,
isn't it? Even amongst my friends, who are all very intelligent
people, they are totally divided on abortion. Some of my friends, for
instance, think these pro-life people are annoying idiots. Others of
my friends think these pro-life people are evil fucks.
How are we going to come to a consensus?
You want to hear the arguments around my house.
"They're annoying!"
"They're idiots!"
"They're evil!"
"They're fucks!"
Brothers, sisters come together! Can't we once just join hands and
think of them as evil annoying idiot fucks?
-- the late great Bill Hicks
"There are bits of banana peel floating up Belfast Lough that know
more about Irish politics than our JTEM." -- Chesney Christ
.
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| User: "raven1" |
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| Title: Re: OT: For Maff: Palestinian Gunman Kills Two as Family Celebrates Jewish New Year |
28 Sep 2003 10:56:33 AM |
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On Sun, 28 Sep 2003 13:07:04 +0100, Craig McDonald
<rcd@craigmcdonald.com> wrote:
On Sun, 28 Sep 2003 00:43:44 -0400, raven1
<psychedelephant@flashmail.com> wrote:
On Sat, 27 Sep 2003 23:58:27 +0100, Craig McDonald
<rcd@craigmcdonald.com> wrote:
On Sat, 27 Sep 2003 14:06:38 -0400, raven1
<psychedelephant@flashmail.com> wrote:
Two can play your game, Maff.
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/09/27/international/middleeast/27MIDE.html?th
Gunman Kills Two as Family Celebrates Jewish New Year
By GREG MYRE
<snip>
Are you suggesting that no Palestinian babies/children have been the
victims of Israeli gunfire, rockets or bulldozers?
Of course not. I'm just sick of hearing only one side of the story
from our Minister of Propaganda.
Then I'm guessing you never watch CNN/Fox/ABC News/Any Western news
media?
What have they to do with alt.atheism? I'm talking about this NG, not
the mass media.
If anything, it is Maff who is doing his little bit to represent the
"other" side of the coin.
While ignoring the other "other" side.
There is no shortage of mass-media
representation of the "poor misunderstood" Israelis.
Again, you completely miss the point. First, I'm referring to this NG,
not the mass media, second, I'm not apologizing for Israel, I'm
pointing out that a number of posters here are quick to loudly condemn
Israel, but are conspicuously silent about atrocities on the other
side. It's an unfair double standard that I find quite hypocritical;
if you're going to oppose bloodshed of the innocent, then condemn it
no matter which side the perpetrators or victims are on.
.
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| User: "Craig McDonald" |
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| Title: Re: OT: For Maff: Palestinian Gunman Kills Two as Family Celebrates Jewish New Year |
28 Sep 2003 01:26:43 PM |
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On Sun, 28 Sep 2003 11:56:33 -0400, raven1
<psychedelephant@flashmail.com> wrote:
On Sun, 28 Sep 2003 13:07:04 +0100, Craig McDonald
<rcd@craigmcdonald.com> wrote:
On Sun, 28 Sep 2003 00:43:44 -0400, raven1
<psychedelephant@flashmail.com> wrote:
On Sat, 27 Sep 2003 23:58:27 +0100, Craig McDonald
<rcd@craigmcdonald.com> wrote:
On Sat, 27 Sep 2003 14:06:38 -0400, raven1
<psychedelephant@flashmail.com> wrote:
Two can play your game, Maff.
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/09/27/international/middleeast/27MIDE.html?th
Gunman Kills Two as Family Celebrates Jewish New Year
By GREG MYRE
<snip>
Are you suggesting that no Palestinian babies/children have been the
victims of Israeli gunfire, rockets or bulldozers?
Of course not. I'm just sick of hearing only one side of the story
from our Minister of Propaganda.
Then I'm guessing you never watch CNN/Fox/ABC News/Any Western news
media?
What have they to do with alt.atheism? I'm talking about this NG, not
the mass media.
If both side's attrocities were reported with an even hand there would
be no need to highlight those perpetrated by one over the other. That
doesn't happen. Hence the show of outrage shown by the vocal minority
in this newsgroup. To pretend that this newsgroup exists in abstentia
of the mass media which saturates the rest of our lives is naivety in
extremis.
If anything, it is Maff who is doing his little bit to represent the
"other" side of the coin.
While ignoring the other "other" side.
The "other" side is given ample support by the mass media. It doesn't
need further bolstering here, does it? If both side's outrages were
condemned vocally by the media Maff (and others) would have no need to
comment on Israeli aggressions against Palestinians.
There is no shortage of mass-media
representation of the "poor misunderstood" Israelis.
Again, you completely miss the point. First, I'm referring to this NG,
not the mass media, second, I'm not apologizing for Israel,
I don't miss your point. I also realise you're not apologising for
Israel. I hope you also realise that I am not apologising for
Palestine. I doubt Maff is, either, though I will let him speak for
himself.
I'm
pointing out that a number of posters here are quick to loudly condemn
Israel, but are conspicuously silent about atrocities on the other
side.
Explanation/reasoning given above.
It's an unfair double standard that I find quite hypocritical;
if you're going to oppose bloodshed of the innocent, then condemn it
no matter which side the perpetrators or victims are on.
I condemn both sides. However, one side is demonised whilst the other
shown nothing (with few exceptions) but sympathy by the media in the
US and (hopefully) to a lesser extent in the UK.
To highlight Israeli aggression against the Palestinians in this NG is
a token gesture towards tipping the balance towards a more even-handed
outlook on the whole sorry mess that is the Middle East.
Red Celt
aa#883
--
Boy, I've never seen an issue so divisive. It's like a civil war,
isn't it? Even amongst my friends, who are all very intelligent
people, they are totally divided on abortion. Some of my friends, for
instance, think these pro-life people are annoying idiots. Others of
my friends think these pro-life people are evil fucks.
How are we going to come to a consensus?
You want to hear the arguments around my house.
"They're annoying!"
"They're idiots!"
"They're evil!"
"They're fucks!"
Brothers, sisters come together! Can't we once just join hands and
think of them as evil annoying idiot fucks?
-- the late great Bill Hicks
"There are bits of banana peel floating up Belfast Lough that know
more about Irish politics than our JTEM." -- Chesney Christ
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| User: "Bob Dog" |
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| Title: Re: OT: For Maff: Palestinian Gunman Kills Two as Family Celebrates Jewish New Year |
28 Sep 2003 03:25:27 AM |
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raven1 <psychedelephant@flashmail.com> wrote in message news:<adkbnv0qqtassr616463d90fvstvvoeqp7@4ax.com>...
Two can play your game, Maff.
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/09/27/international/middleeast/27MIDE.html?th
Gunman Kills Two as Family Celebrates Jewish New Year
JERUSALEM, Sept. 26 ? A Palestinian gunman killed two people, one of
them a baby girl, and wounded two more when he opened fire tonight on
an Israeli family celebrating the Jewish New Year at their home in a
settlement outside the West Bank town of Hebron. Israeli troops rushed
to the scene and fatally shot the attacker.
<snip>
No group immediately claimed responsibility. Israeli military forces,
however, have carried out many raids in Hebron in recent weeks,
killing several militants from the Hamas and Islamic Jihad factions,
which vowed to strike back.
Yes, those horrible Palestinians, retaliating when Israeli
terrorists make unprovoked attacks on innocent Palestinians.
Palestinians should not be receiving financial and military
support from other nations nor have their acts rationalized
while they kill these jewish terrorists.
I guess that's while those 27 Palestinian pilots refused to
bomb and kill innocent jews in their homes with missiles.
Bob Dog
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| User: "raven1" |
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| Title: Re: OT: For Maff: Palestinian Gunman Kills Two as Family Celebrates Jewish New Year |
28 Sep 2003 09:54:43 AM |
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On 28 Sep 2003 01:25:27 -0700, (Bob Dog) wrote:
raven1 <psychedelephant@flashmail.com> wrote in message news:<adkbnv0qqtassr616463d90fvstvvoeqp7@4ax.com>...
Two can play your game, Maff.
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/09/27/international/middleeast/27MIDE.html?th
Gunman Kills Two as Family Celebrates Jewish New Year
JERUSALEM, Sept. 26 ? A Palestinian gunman killed two people, one of
them a baby girl, and wounded two more when he opened fire tonight on
an Israeli family celebrating the Jewish New Year at their home in a
settlement outside the West Bank town of Hebron. Israeli troops rushed
to the scene and fatally shot the attacker.
<snip>
No group immediately claimed responsibility. Israeli military forces,
however, have carried out many raids in Hebron in recent weeks,
killing several militants from the Hamas and Islamic Jihad factions,
which vowed to strike back.
Yes, those horrible Palestinians, retaliating when Israeli
terrorists make unprovoked attacks on innocent Palestinians.
Everyone seems to be missing the point here. Murder on both sides is
wrong, but only one side comes in for criticism on this NG. It's a
hypocritical double standard.
Palestinians should not be receiving financial and military
support from other nations nor have their acts rationalized
while they kill these jewish terrorists.
I guess that's while those 27 Palestinian pilots refused to
bomb and kill innocent jews in their homes with missiles.
Do you consider the leaders of Hamas to be "innocent"? How curious.
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| User: "Bob Dog" |
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| Title: Re: OT: For Maff: Palestinian Gunman Kills Two as Family Celebrates Jewish New Year |
01 Oct 2003 08:19:27 AM |
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raven1 <psychedelephant@flashmail.com> wrote in message news:<fdtdnvch70e0t307r92b8momqj6i55l9sn@4ax.com>...
On 28 Sep 2003 01:25:27 -0700, (Bob Dog) wrote:
raven1 <psychedelephant@flashmail.com> wrote in message news:<adkbnv0qqtassr616463d90fvstvvoeqp7@4ax.com>...
Everyone seems to be missing the point here. Murder on both sides is
wrong, but only one side comes in for criticism on this NG. It's a
hypocritical double standard.
If the criticism of both Israelis and Palestinians by the
media and governments were equal, I highly doubt people
in this group would criticize only one side. It's not
equal it's biased. That the jews were victims of genocide
does not give them carte blanche to enact one upon the
Palestinians. Unprovoked murder is not "self defense",
and calling it so is justified.
Identifying and stating Israel's murder of people (not just
Palestinians, but Rachel Corrie among others) is the same
as criticizing Shrub's fascist policies. Or do you object
to people like Scott Ritter and think that Joseph Wilson
and his wife are getting what they deserve?
*You* are _not_ criticizing both sides, and you are lying
when you say I am not.
Palestinians should not be receiving financial and military
support from other nations nor have their acts rationalized
while they kill these jewish terrorists.
I guess that's while those 27 Palestinian pilots refused to
bomb and kill innocent jews in their homes with missiles.
Do you consider the leaders of Hamas to be "innocent"? How curious.
You insinuate that those who do not support Ariel Sharon's
murder of Palestinians civilians are supporters of Hamas.
How craven of you.
It used to be called the "red scare"; now that the cold war
is over, it's the "arab scare". Your desultory tactics show
how morally inept you are. You are truly no better than a
theist; as long as a lie agrees with your hate, you will
employ it no matter how contemptible it is or shows you out
to be. You are a coward and a liar.
From here on in, I (as should others) will refer to you as
"craven". It certainly befits you.
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=craven
Bob Dog
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| User: "raven1" |
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| Title: Re: OT: For Maff: Palestinian Gunman Kills Two as Family Celebrates Jewish New Year |
01 Oct 2003 05:31:43 PM |
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On 1 Oct 2003 06:19:27 -0700, (Bob Dog) wrote:
raven1 <psychedelephant@flashmail.com> wrote in message news:<fdtdnvch70e0t307r92b8momqj6i55l9sn@4ax.com>...
On 28 Sep 2003 01:25:27 -0700, (Bob Dog) wrote:
raven1 <psychedelephant@flashmail.com> wrote in message news:<adkbnv0qqtassr616463d90fvstvvoeqp7@4ax.com>...
Everyone seems to be missing the point here. Murder on both sides is
wrong, but only one side comes in for criticism on this NG. It's a
hypocritical double standard.
If the criticism of both Israelis and Palestinians by the
media and governments were equal,
I see an enormous amount of criticism posted here from major media
sources criticizing the Israelis. Perhaps you're missing it. Or
perhaps you're missing that this was the entire point of the thread in
the first place.
I highly doubt people
in this group would criticize only one side.
Haven't read the group much lately, have you?
It's not
equal it's biased. That the jews were victims of genocide
does not give them carte blanche to enact one upon the
Palestinians.
Of course it doesn't.
Unprovoked murder is not "self defense",
and calling it so is justified.
On either side, Bob, something you don't seem to recognize, nor have I
ever supported Israel killing Palestinian civilians.
Identifying and stating Israel's murder of people (not just
Palestinians, but Rachel Corrie among others)
Oh, please, not this absolute nonsense again. Rachel Corrie acted like
an idiot and died in the course of it: there are far more effective
ways of protesting injustice that won't get you run over by a
bulldozer. I have a strong feeling that you'd probably consider most
theist "martyrs" to be idiots; that someone would get a free pass on
stupid behavior because you agree with them politically is ridiculous.
is the same
as criticizing Shrub's fascist policies.
Which policies I have been very vocal in opposition to...
Or do you object
to people like Scott Ritter and think that Joseph Wilson
and his wife are getting what they deserve?
Of course not. It's profoundly disingenuous of you to suggest
otherwise.
*You* are _not_ criticizing both sides,
Then you haven't read anything in this whole thread. I've made a point
of criticizing both sides in every post.
and you are lying
when you say I am not.
Citations, please, then. I've *never* seen you do so.
Palestinians should not be receiving financial and military
support from other nations nor have their acts rationalized
while they kill these jewish terrorists.
I agree, so would you say that Arab governments bear an equal moral
responsibility along with the US? If not, why not?
I guess that's while those 27 Palestinian pilots refused to
bomb and kill innocent jews in their homes with missiles.
Do you consider the leaders of Hamas to be "innocent"? How curious.
You insinuate that those who do not support Ariel Sharon's
murder of Palestinians civilians are supporters of Hamas.
Oh, here I thought that you were ironically referring to the refusal
of some Israeli pilots to carry out targeted killings of Hamas leaders
on the grounds that civilians were being killed in the process. While
there is something to be said for such a stand, it's sheer
disingenuousness on your part to suggest that Israel was deliberately
targeting civilians in doing so.
How craven of you.
And how utterly disingenuous and dishonest of you.
It used to be called the "red scare"; now that the cold war
is over, it's the "arab scare".
Oh, please, seriously, you're killing me here. You can't really be so
fucking disingenuous. This is exactly why I'm almost beginning to be
embarrassed to identify myself with the left; there's just as many
ideologues as on the right, and the minute you disagree with them,
they'll practically accuse you of being a rabid conservative. It's
dishonest and idiotic, and doesn't help anything; it's an Orwellian
attempt to quash any honest difference of opinion.
Your desultory tactics show
how morally inept you are.
And your entirely over-the-top outburst slandering my character rather
than countering anything I have to say shows how intellectually
bankrupt you are.
You are truly no better than a
theist; as long as a lie agrees with your hate, you will
employ it no matter how contemptible it is or shows you out
to be. You are a coward and a liar.
Please cite one lie or example of cowardice on my part or retract your
disingenuous slander.
In case you haven't grasped it, let me restate my original premise.
Israelis and Palestinians are both killing each other for no good
reason. Both sides need to stop.
Only one side seems to come in for criticism on this NG. That also
needs to stop.
Let me add another premise here: some people on this NG are so unable
to take any criticism of their political positions that they have to
resort to out and out slander to counter it, and I unfortunately now
have to count you among them.. When you have something to criticize
about the content of what I've posted, without resorting to ridiculous
accusations against me, then feel free to do so. Until then, enjoy
your knee-jerk world view.
From here on in, I (as should others) will refer to you as
"craven". It certainly befits you.
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=craven
Some of us know a few SAT words without a reference, Bob, although I
appreciate that your condescension blends well with your arrogance and
cluelessness. Peace.
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| User: "stillsunny" |
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| Title: Re: OT: For Maff: Palestinian Gunman Kills Two as Family Celebrates Jewish New Year |
30 Sep 2003 04:53:11 PM |
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raven1 <psychedelephant@flashmail.com> wrote in message news:<fdtdnvch70e0t307r92b8momqj6i55l9sn@4ax.com>...
On 28 Sep 2003 01:25:27 -0700, (Bob Dog) wrote:
raven1 <psychedelephant@flashmail.com> wrote in message news:<adkbnv0qqtassr616463d90fvstvvoeqp7@4ax.com>...
Two can play your game, Maff.
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/09/27/international/middleeast/27MIDE.html?th
Gunman Kills Two as Family Celebrates Jewish New Year
JERUSALEM, Sept. 26 ? A Palestinian gunman killed two people, one of
them a baby girl, and wounded two more when he opened fire tonight on
an Israeli family celebrating the Jewish New Year at their home in a
settlement outside the West Bank town of Hebron. Israeli troops rushed
to the scene and fatally shot the attacker.
<snip>
No group immediately claimed responsibility. Israeli military forces,
however, have carried out many raids in Hebron in recent weeks,
killing several militants from the Hamas and Islamic Jihad factions,
which vowed to strike back.
Yes, those horrible Palestinians, retaliating when Israeli
terrorists make unprovoked attacks on innocent Palestinians.
Everyone seems to be missing the point here.
I didn't.
A baby girl is dead.
Sunny
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| User: "JTEM" |
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| Title: Re: OT: For Maff: Palestinian Gunman Kills Two as Family Celebrates Jewish New Year |
03 Oct 2003 06:40:32 PM |
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"stillsunny" <stillsunny1@yahoo.com> wrote
A baby girl is dead.
Dozens are dead, if not hundreds. And, numerous parents
along with them.
Which hurt me the most?
The killings my government financed & endorsed. The
ones I must share some responsibility for.
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| User: "stillsunny" |
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| Title: Re: OT: For Maff: Palestinian Gunman Kills Two as Family Celebrates Jewish New Year |
05 Oct 2003 02:09:57 PM |
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"JTEM" <jaytem@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<9g2dnUTc27TOleOiU-KYhw@comcast.com>...
"stillsunny" <stillsunny1@yahoo.com> wrote
A baby girl is dead.
Dozens are dead, if not hundreds. And, numerous parents
along with them.
Which hurt me the most?
The killings my government financed & endorsed. The
ones I must share some responsibility for.
"The whole earth is my birthplace and all humans are my brothers."
Kahlil Gibran
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| User: "JTEM" |
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| Title: Re: OT: For Maff: Palestinian Gunman Kills Two as Family Celebrates Jewish New Year |
06 Oct 2003 12:13:46 AM |
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"stillsunny" <stillsunny1@yahoo.com> wrote
Which hurt me the most?
The killings my government financed & endorsed. The
ones I must share some responsibility for.
"The whole earth is my birthplace and all humans are my
brothers."
Kahlil Gibran
Hallmark cards are nice, but sooner or later you wake up and
you realize that you're not innocent, that your hands are not
clean. And, no, it's not a case where *Everybody* is in the
same boat.
We have paid for every last bullet, every last bomb, every
last missile fired & dropped by the Israeli military in the
west bank.
Maybe some decades ago we could've claimed that we were
ignorant, that we didn't know. But, baby, the occupation of the
west bank is now 36 years old.
We're not ignorant. We're not innocent. We do not share this
responsibility with all the other nations on earth.
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| User: "stillsunny" |
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| Title: Re: OT: For Maff: Palestinian Gunman Kills Two as Family Celebrates Jewish New Year |
06 Oct 2003 08:17:19 AM |
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"JTEM" <jaytem@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<c8ecnfpDuZH0ZB2iU-KYvA@comcast.com>...
"stillsunny" <stillsunny1@yahoo.com> wrote
Which hurt me the most?
The killings my government financed & endorsed. The
ones I must share some responsibility for.
"The whole earth is my birthplace and all humans are my
brothers."
Kahlil Gibran
Hallmark cards are nice, but sooner or later you wake up and
you realize that you're not innocent, that your hands are not
clean. And, no, it's not a case where *Everybody* is in the
same boat.
We have paid for every last bullet, every last bomb, every
last missile fired & dropped by the Israeli military in the
west bank.
Maybe some decades ago we could've claimed that we were
ignorant, that we didn't know. But, baby, the occupation of the
west bank is now 36 years old.
We're not ignorant. We're not innocent. We do not share this
responsibility with all the other nations on earth.
I disagree with you, JTEM, but I suspect it's more a matter of
perspective.
There were and are reasons for the support of Israel -- some worthy,
some self serving.
And I don't mean to be antagonistic, but which death of which
individual child hurts *you* more is rather beside the point I'm
trying to make here, because each death of each innocent hurts
*somebody* more than the other. Couching the argument for or against
a thing in those terms can only serve to perpetuate the divisions
which cause the conflict to begin with.
The 19 killed this weekend hurt those in Israel a lot more than the
ones on the Palestinian side.
The seven year old shot while Israel was chasing a Hamas leader hurt
the Palestinian family a lot more than Ariel Sharon.
And we're not going to solve it on Usenet.
But until enough people on both sides begin to mourn the deaths of
innocents as simply that -- deaths of innocents, rather than
acceptable losses in a vying for position, then the deaths are going
to continue.
Somebody, somewhere, has got to start thinking in more universal
terms; in win/win instead of which side must lose.
Nobody in the middle east gives two hoots about how much you're hurt
by a thing or not. They're, most of them, just trying to survive, but
they're being driven by the extremists on both sides who see
elimination of the enemy as a higher purpose than living. It's a
vicious cycle of reactionary politics; each time there's a whisper of
concilliation, people start blowing stuff up -- which derails the
entire process, because no group is going to willingly accept murder
of their civilians as a proper foundation for peace.
Sunny
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| User: "JTEM" |
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| Title: Re: OT: For Maff: Palestinian Gunman Kills Two as Family Celebrates Jewish New Year |
07 Oct 2003 12:52:02 AM |
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"stillsunny" <stillsunny1@yahoo.com> wrote
There were and are reasons for the support of Israel -- some
worthy, some self serving.
We are responsible for that support, and what the Israeli
government does with that support.
Your hands are dirty. Deny it all you want -- turn your back on
your own responsibility -- but the bodies are still piling up, and
not one of them will ever come back to life.
And I don't mean to be antagonistic, but which death of
which individual child hurts *you* more is rather beside
the point I'm trying to make here, because each death of
each innocent hurts *somebody* more than the other.
If a four y.o. child dies because their parent hands them a loaded
revolver and tells them to go play in traffic, I'll blame the parents.
In the case of the west bank, yeah, my blame does tend to fall on
the people brutally occupying the region, and practicing ethnic
cleansing on the native population.
What, you think the Palestinians begged the Israelis to throw them
off the land and build settlements?
Is that it?
You think the Palestinians all got together some 36 years ago, and
demanded that the Israeli government treat them like enemy
foreigners on their own ancestoral lands, deny them of all rights
and citizenship?
It didn't work that way, and, no, I will not forgive you for being
ignorant.
The 19 killed this weekend hurt those in Israel a lot more than the
ones on the Palestinian side.
How would you know?
Honestly. Do you think you're well informed or something? You
think you're really up on how many Palestinians have been killed
or arrested?
Where are you getting this information from?
The seven year old shot while Israel was chasing a Hamas
leader hurt the Palestinian family a lot more than Ariel
Sharon.
Go to google and punch in:
"Sharon" "Special unit 101"
He's been practicing legal ethnic cleansing since the early 1950s.
Before that it wasn't legal.
And we're not going to solve it on Usenet.
Nobody is going to solve it, period. If for no other reason than
the fact that nobody wants peace, the United States included.
We haven't punished agression since Jimmy Carter was President.
We've ignored it on numerous occassions, even rewarded it a
little earlier this year, but we have never once punished agression
in the Arab/Israeli conflict since Jimmy Carter was President.
But until enough people on both sides begin to mourn the
deaths of innocents as simply that -- deaths of innocents,
rather than acceptable losses in a vying for position, then
the deaths are going to continue.
That's not true. That's an excuse.
The United States has the power to force a peace on Israel,
even with homicidal maniacs like Sharon in power.
We won't do that though, and part of the reason is that the
American people simply don't give a damn.... you included.
You're too busy blaming everybody else, and absolving
yourself, to actually take responsibility for the major U.S.
role in the violence.
When people like you are willing to take responsibility for
what your government has done, when you decide that you
no longer want the blood on your hands, things will change
and they will change rabidly.
Somebody, somewhere, has got to start thinking in more
universal terms; in win/win instead of which side must lose.
That's your problem right there.
For normal people -- or what people normally think -- is that
when innocents are dying you have to stop it. You don't worry
about "winning" or "fair." You stop it. Then, and only then do
you worry about what is fair.
That's how you'd feel if it was your children.
[---mindless "they're different from us" rant deleted---]
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| User: "stillsunny" |
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| Title: Re: OT: For Maff: Palestinian Gunman Kills Two as Family Celebrates Jewish New Year |
07 Oct 2003 06:55:38 AM |
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"JTEM" <jaytem@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<Bp-cnaJovKV8zh-iU-KYgA@comcast.com>...
"stillsunny" <stillsunny1@yahoo.com> wrote
<generous snip>
I've deleted a fairly long response, in lieu of focusing here.
When people like you are willing to take responsibility for
what your government has done, when you decide that you
no longer want the blood on your hands, things will change
and they will change rabidly.
That's an interesting typo.
Somebody, somewhere, has got to start thinking in more
universal terms; in win/win instead of which side must lose.
That's your problem right there.
For normal people -- or what people normally think -- is that
when innocents are dying you have to stop it. You don't worry
about "winning" or "fair." You stop it. Then, and only then do
you worry about what is fair.
Perhaps you might offer, then, your own solution to the problem as it
exists presently. Outline of objectives, methods of implementation,
and possible or likely consequences.
Sunny
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| User: "raven1" |
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| Title: Re: OT: For Maff: Palestinian Gunman Kills Two as Family Celebrates Jewish New Year |
07 Oct 2003 01:18:07 AM |
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On Tue, 7 Oct 2003 01:52:02 -0400, "JTEM" <jaytem@yahoo.com> wrote:
Honestly. Do you think you're well informed or something? You
think you're really up on how many Palestinians have been killed
or arrested?
Do you? Statistics, please. Seriously, you get more hyperbolic with
every post. Take it down a notch.
.
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| User: "johac" |
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| Title: Re: OT: For Maff: Palestinian Gunman Kills Two as Family Celebrates Jewish New Year |
07 Oct 2003 01:38:15 AM |
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In article <c472f5b5.0310060517.7ee57365@posting.google.com>,
(stillsunny) wrote:
"JTEM" <jaytem@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:<c8ecnfpDuZH0ZB2iU-KYvA@comcast.com>...
"stillsunny" < > wrote
Which hurt me the most?
The killings my government financed & endorsed. The
ones I must share some responsibility for.
"The whole earth is my birthplace and all humans are my
brothers."
Kahlil Gibran
Hallmark cards are nice, but sooner or later you wake up and
you realize that you're not innocent, that your hands are not
clean. And, no, it's not a case where *Everybody* is in the
same boat.
We have paid for every last bullet, every last bomb, every
last missile fired & dropped by the Israeli military in the
west bank.
Maybe some decades ago we could've claimed that we were
ignorant, that we didn't know. But, baby, the occupation of the
west bank is now 36 years old.
We're not ignorant. We're not innocent. We do not share this
responsibility with all the other nations on earth.
I disagree with you, JTEM, but I suspect it's more a matter of
perspective.
There were and are reasons for the support of Israel -- some worthy,
some self serving.
And I don't mean to be antagonistic, but which death of which
individual child hurts *you* more is rather beside the point I'm
trying to make here, because each death of each innocent hurts
*somebody* more than the other. Couching the argument for or against
a thing in those terms can only serve to perpetuate the divisions
which cause the conflict to begin with.
The 19 killed this weekend hurt those in Israel a lot more than the
ones on the Palestinian side.
The seven year old shot while Israel was chasing a Hamas leader hurt
the Palestinian family a lot more than Ariel Sharon.
And we're not going to solve it on Usenet.
But until enough people on both sides begin to mourn the deaths of
innocents as simply that -- deaths of innocents, rather than
acceptable losses in a vying for position, then the deaths are going
to continue.
Somebody, somewhere, has got to start thinking in more universal
terms; in win/win instead of which side must lose.
I agree, exactly!
Nobody in the middle east gives two hoots about how much you're hurt
by a thing or not. They're, most of them, just trying to survive, but
they're being driven by the extremists on both sides who see
elimination of the enemy as a higher purpose than living. It's a
vicious cycle of reactionary politics; each time there's a whisper of
concilliation, people start blowing stuff up -- which derails the
entire process, because no group is going to willingly accept murder
of their civilians as a proper foundation for peace.
Both sides need to take a look at what's going on and say: "Wait a
minute. This is stupid! They kill our people, we kill their people in
revenge, so they kill more of us. It just keeps going on as it has
been for over fifty years. Nothing has been accomplished but bigger
and bigger piles of corpses. There has to be a better alternative.
Let's sit down and talk about it!"
I'm not to optimistic, but I wish that people of good will on both
sides would get together and pledge to 'just say no' to violence. If
their leaders disagree, they should find better leaders.
Sunny
--
John Hachmann, aa #1782
Pierre Laplace, when asked by Napoleon on why he made
no mention of a god in his book on astronomy: "Sire,
I have no need of that hypothesis."
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| User: "raven1" |
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| Title: Re: OT: For Maff: Palestinian Gunman Kills Two as Family Celebrates Jewish New Year |
07 Oct 2003 11:26:33 PM |
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On Mon, 06 Oct 2003 23:38:15 -0700, johac <jhachm@remove.ixpres.com>
wrote:
Both sides need to take a look at what's going on and say: "Wait a
minute. This is stupid! They kill our people, we kill their people in
revenge, so they kill more of us. It just keeps going on as it has
been for over fifty years. Nothing has been accomplished but bigger
and bigger piles of corpses. There has to be a better alternative.
Let's sit down and talk about it!"
Yes. Thank you. That is *exactly* what I've been screaming about this
whole time. (Well, other than the fact that some other people on this
NG seem to consistently ignore that there are innocents killed on both
sides, not just one).
Can we have a reality check here folks?
To both sides: STOP FUCKING KILLING PEOPLE!!!
And let's all try to keep in perspective that not only does the end
not justify the means, even if it did, *nothing* is being accomplished
by the violence on either side, other than the perpetuation of
violence.
..
.
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| User: "JTEM" |
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| Title: Re: OT: For Maff: Palestinian Gunman Kills Two as Family Celebrates Jewish New Year |
08 Oct 2003 01:33:58 AM |
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"raven1" <psychedelephant@flashmail.com> wrote
To both sides: STOP FUCKING KILLING PEOPLE!!!
There isn't just two sides.
Perhaps a more constructive call would be for everybody,
including ourselves, to end our own roles in the killing.
We look like idiots telling everybody else to stop, even as
we ourselves plow ahead at full steam.
.
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| User: "Sean C" |
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| Title: Re: OT: For Maff: Palestinian Gunman Kills Two as Family Celebrates Jewish New Year |
08 Oct 2003 03:42:53 AM |
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In article <fQOdnU2DFIlQLx6iU-KYiQ@comcast.com>, JTEM
<jaytem@yahoo.com> wrote:
"raven1" <psychedelephant@flashmail.com> wrote
To both sides: STOP FUCKING KILLING PEOPLE!!!
There isn't just two sides.
Perhaps a more constructive call would be for everybody,
including ourselves, to end our own roles in the killing.
We look like idiots telling everybody else to stop, even as
we ourselves plow ahead at full steam.
Indeed, America must put pressure on Israel, and if necessary, withdraw
support completely, or there will *never* be peace. We *are*
responsible.
If you look at this logically, sensible Palestinians know that they
will never defeat Israel, nor will they ever recover the land that was
stolen from them. This is simply not a realistic possibility, and thus
is not a goal worth fighting for. This is particularly true with the
world's only superpower backing Israel. They realize that the best they
can hope for is to have their own state, on the West Bank, and if they
are given that, they will no longer have anything to fight for. Only
the militants and fanatics will likely carry on the fight, but they
will quickly become marginalized by a population enjoying the fruits of
peace.
The Israelis, on the other hand, recognize that they may yet be able to
hold on to the West Bank, and may even succeed in ethnically cleansing
it entirely. This is a realistic possibility, particularly with the
unquestioning backing of the US. This reality stands as a strong
disincentive to making peace with the Palestinians. So the hardliners
will continue to do business as usual so long as the US backs them, and
the people of Israel keep them in office, as they seem inclined to do.
It is for this reason that it is critical that the US get tough with
Israel, and demand that they withdraw from the West Bank immediately
and allow for the establishment of a Palestinian state. This is the
*only* hope for peace, and the only workable solution. The Israelis
must be made to believe that holding on to the West Bank is simply not
a realistic option, and it will not be if the US withdraws support.
So the ball is in America's court. All we need is a government that
doesn't take its marching orders in the Mid-East from the Likud
party--one that is willing to flex its enormous power to make change
there--and I think we will see a considerable decline in the violence
in the Mid-East, and an eventual end to hostilities. People who believe
endless warfare is somehow inevitable are misguided.
Sean C
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