| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"Frank J Warner" |
| Date: |
14 Apr 2005 04:34:05 PM |
| Object: |
OT: Google Groups is ruining Usenet |
What's up with Google Groups and why is it ruining Usenet?
Recently, I've been plonking many Google Groups users simply because
they are unable, using that service, to follow simple and time-honored
Usenet conventions; primarily the custom of quoting text, so others
(who don't use Google) know to whom and to what topic their replies are
intended.
I am tired of plowing through a long thread, only to get to the 47th
post and read something like "I agree, and here's why:" with no quoting
of what the poster is agreeing with, no reference to whom he is
agreeing, no attribution of previous arguments and so on.
It's aggravating, and I'm starting to see more and more of it as people
gravitate to the web-based Usenet service, hence more and more people
are ending up in my kill file for no other reason than my inability to
follow their lines of reference in a complex thread.
People, if you are going to use Google, PLEASE manually quote any
messages that you are replying to. While it's obvious to you and other
Google Groups users to whom and what you are replying, millions of
others, using robust and full-featured newsreaders, have no clue, so
you end up sounding like idiots; the guy in the class who always starts
talking without raising his hand. Even if you have something
interesting and important to say, we can't alwyas be sure who you're
saying it to and why. You're getting lost in the noise.
Google, Usenet does not belong to you. You might be the 800 lb.
gorilla, but Usenet is the spermatozoa that spawned you, so you owe it
to millions of experienced users to make *your* implementation of a
"newsreader" compliant with time-honored and *useful* Usenet etiquette.
Rant over.
-Frank
--
fwarner1-at-franksknives-dot-com
Here's some of my work:
http://www.franksknives.com/
.
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| User: "Witziges Rätsel" |
|
| Title: Re: Google Groups is ruining Usenet |
14 Apr 2005 08:37:56 PM |
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What's up with Google Groups and why is it ruining Usenet?
Recently, I've been plonking many Google Groups users simply because
they are unable, using that service, to follow simple and time-honored
Usenet conventions; primarily the custom of quoting text, so others
(who don't use Google) know to whom and to what topic their replies are
intended.
I am tired of plowing through a long thread, only to get to the 47th
post and read something like "I agree, and here's why:" with no quoting
of what the poster is agreeing with, no reference to whom he is
agreeing, no attribution of previous arguments and so on.
It's aggravating, and I'm starting to see more and more of it as people
gravitate to the web-based Usenet service, hence more and more people
are ending up in my kill file for no other reason than my inability to
follow their lines of reference in a complex thread.
People, if you are going to use Google, PLEASE manually quote any
messages that you are replying to. While it's obvious to you and other
Google Groups users to whom and what you are replying, millions of
others, using robust and full-featured newsreaders, have no clue, so
you end up sounding like idiots; the guy in the class who always starts
talking without raising his hand. Even if you have something
interesting and important to say, we can't alwyas be sure who you're
saying it to and why. You're getting lost in the noise.
Google, Usenet does not belong to you. You might be the 800 lb.
gorilla, but Usenet is the spermatozoa that spawned you, so you owe it
to millions of experienced users to make *your* implementation of a
"newsreader" compliant with time-honored and *useful* Usenet etiquette.
Rant over.
-Frank
Google Groups is in the beta stage; now is the time to make
suggestions, compliments, and complaints known.
.
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| User: "Gregory Gadow" |
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| Title: Re: Google Groups is ruining Usenet |
15 Apr 2005 01:14:59 PM |
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"Witziges Rätsel" wrote:
Google Groups is in the beta stage; now is the time to make
suggestions, compliments, and complaints known.
It has been in beta for several years, ever since Google bought out Deja
News.
--
Gregory Gadow
techbear@serv.net
http://www.serv.net/~techbear
"[T]hose who deny freedom to others deserve it not for themselves;
and, under the rule of a just God, cannot long retain it."
-- Pres. George W. Bush, Hypocrite, his inauguration speech, 2005
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| User: "maff" |
|
| Title: Re: OT: Google Groups is ruining Usenet |
14 Apr 2005 08:44:27 PM |
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Frank J Warner wrote:
What's up with Google Groups and why is it ruining Usenet?
Recently, I've been plonking many Google Groups users simply because
they are unable, using that service, to follow simple and
time-honored
Usenet conventions; primarily the custom of quoting text, so others
(who don't use Google) know to whom and to what topic their replies
are
intended.
I am tired of plowing through a long thread, only to get to the 47th
post and read something like "I agree, and here's why:" with no
quoting
of what the poster is agreeing with, no reference to whom he is
agreeing, no attribution of previous arguments and so on.
It's aggravating, and I'm starting to see more and more of it as
people
gravitate to the web-based Usenet service, hence more and more people
are ending up in my kill file for no other reason than my inability
to
follow their lines of reference in a complex thread.
People, if you are going to use Google, PLEASE manually quote any
messages that you are replying to. While it's obvious to you and
other
Google Groups users to whom and what you are replying, millions of
others, using robust and full-featured newsreaders, have no clue, so
you end up sounding like idiots; the guy in the class who always
starts
talking without raising his hand. Even if you have something
interesting and important to say, we can't alwyas be sure who you're
saying it to and why. You're getting lost in the noise.
Google, Usenet does not belong to you. You might be the 800 lb.
gorilla, but Usenet is the spermatozoa that spawned you, so you owe
it
to millions of experienced users to make *your* implementation of a
"newsreader" compliant with time-honored and *useful* Usenet
etiquette.
Rant over.
Click on 'show options' and then click on 'Reply'.
-Frank
--
fwarner1-at-franksknives-dot-com
Here's some of my work:
http://www.franksknives.com/
.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: OT: Google Groups is ruining Usenet |
15 Apr 2005 06:18:19 AM |
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maff wrote:
Frank J Warner wrote:
What's up with Google Groups and why is it ruining Usenet?
<snip>
People, if you are going to use Google, PLEASE manually quote any
messages that you are replying to. While it's obvious to you and
other
Google Groups users to whom and what you are replying, millions of
others, using robust and full-featured newsreaders, have no clue,
so
you end up sounding like idiots; the guy in the class who always
starts
talking without raising his hand. Even if you have something
interesting and important to say, we can't alwyas be sure who
you're
saying it to and why. You're getting lost in the noise.
Click on 'show options' and then click on 'Reply'.
Nice idea and all, but what about people whose browsers don't
handle java or javascript or don't want to use them? Many of
the new so-called "features" (read: annoyances) don't work on
HTML compliant web browsers.
To anyone who thinks or responds "then why don't you install
java?", or "use IE", or "get a better computer", said person
had better be offering to buy a computer and be offering free
support for anyone they say it to.
The old system works fine. It should be left alone AND left
easily available for those who want to use it.
Bob Dog
-----
Divine retribution is an idol threat.
.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: OT: Google Groups is ruining Usenet |
15 Apr 2005 08:03:05 AM |
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Frank J Warner wrote:
What's up with Google Groups and why is it ruining Usenet?
Because google has gotten so big it forgot what made it big:
the users. The company is worth so much money that they don't
care what the public wants anymore.
Edmund Burke once said, "All that is necessary for the triumph
of evil in America is for good men to do nothing." Well, google
_is_ doing nothing: it is not answering to its users, it is not
responding to emails (no, not just mine), it is not correcting
its mistakes, and it is not responding to its own "report google
problems" newsgroup. Google is violating its own "Do no evil"
policy by doing nothing.
If you want to use google groups the old way, try the UK site:
http://groups.google.co.uk
Personally, the only thing I didn't like about the old system
was that it took nine hours for replies to be posted. Why they
couldn't leave well enough alone and change the one problem, I
would like to know. But, of course, they think they don't have
to answer to the public, only the shareholders.
Recently, I've been plonking many Google Groups users simply because
they are unable, using that service, to follow simple and
time-honored
Usenet conventions; primarily the custom of quoting text, so others
(who don't use Google) know to whom and to what topic their replies
are
intended.
I am tired of plowing through a long thread, only to get to the 47th
post and read something like "I agree, and here's why:" with no
quoting
of what the poster is agreeing with, no reference to whom he is
agreeing, no attribution of previous arguments and so on.
Odds are these are the same morons who top-post. Now they can
display their laziness and stupidity all that much faster.
Bob Dog
-----
Divine retribution is an idol threat.
.
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| User: "Dean" |
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| Title: Re: OT: Google Groups is ruining Usenet |
15 Apr 2005 02:58:33 PM |
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wrote in message >
If you want to use google groups the old way, try the UK site:
http://groups.google.co.uk
Personally, the only thing I didn't like about the old system
was that it took nine hours for replies to be posted. Why they
couldn't leave well enough alone and change the one problem, I
would like to know. But, of course, they think they don't have
to answer to the public, only the shareholders.
Recently, I've been plonking many Google Groups users simply because
they are unable, using that service, to follow simple and
time-honored
Usenet conventions; primarily the custom of quoting text, so others
(who don't use Google) know to whom and to what topic their replies
are
intended.
Bob Dog
I'm a Google groups user and am still a Usenet virgin (although I
frequented dial-up BBS boards in the mid-'80s). I'm used to using
web-based forums, where everyone sees a message thread linearly, from
first post to last. Looking at these groups last night from a
newsreader I can now understand why a lack of quoting would drive you
nuts, as all you see is a bunch of headers without any context.
That said, I hope I'm not one of the bad ones. I believe I'm using
the old version of Google groups from google.ca, as I have not been
using the available Beta version. When I post a message, the text is
quoted on my screen, so hopefully it works for all of you as well.
For example, this message has a quote in it. If anyone doesn't see the
quote, please let me know.
Thx
Dean
.
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| User: "Frank J Warner" |
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| Title: Re: OT: Google Groups is ruining Usenet |
15 Apr 2005 05:46:58 PM |
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In article <cbeedffa.0504150658.404a5d49@posting.google.com>, Dean
<dionysus_2112@hotmail.com> wrote:
bg12345@apexmail.com wrote in message >
If you want to use google groups the old way, try the UK site:
http://groups.google.co.uk
Personally, the only thing I didn't like about the old system
was that it took nine hours for replies to be posted. Why they
couldn't leave well enough alone and change the one problem, I
would like to know. But, of course, they think they don't have
to answer to the public, only the shareholders.
Recently, I've been plonking many Google Groups users simply because
they are unable, using that service, to follow simple and
time-honored
Usenet conventions; primarily the custom of quoting text, so others
(who don't use Google) know to whom and to what topic their replies
are
intended.
Bob Dog
I'm a Google groups user and am still a Usenet virgin (although I
frequented dial-up BBS boards in the mid-'80s). I'm used to using
web-based forums, where everyone sees a message thread linearly, from
first post to last. Looking at these groups last night from a
newsreader I can now understand why a lack of quoting would drive you
nuts, as all you see is a bunch of headers without any context.
That said, I hope I'm not one of the bad ones. I believe I'm using
the old version of Google groups from google.ca, as I have not been
using the available Beta version. When I post a message, the text is
quoted on my screen, so hopefully it works for all of you as well.
For example, this message has a quote in it. If anyone doesn't see the
quote, please let me know.
Thx
Dean
Looks fine from here.
I think my issue is with noobs who somehow stumble onto Google Groups
and think, "Ooh, something NEW to play with!" then plow right in not
even suspecting the Usenet community has a rich history and established
procedures that are NOT being implemented properly by Google.
-Frank
--
fwarner1-at-franksknives-dot-com
Here's some of my work:
http://www.franksknives.com/
.
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| User: "Dean" |
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| Title: Re: OT: Google Groups is ruining Usenet |
16 Apr 2005 06:33:05 AM |
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Frank J Warner <warnerf@veriSPAMMERSDIEzon.net> wrote
I think my issue is with noobs who somehow stumble onto Google Groups
and think, "Ooh, something NEW to play with!" then plow right in not
even suspecting the Usenet community has a rich history and established
procedures that are NOT being implemented properly by Google.
-Frank
There are actually some pretty good links to netiquette and Usenet
history on the Google groups page - at least the one I'm using.
But it is quite possible (probable, even) that someone used to
web-based forums would not know that unless quoted text appears in
their message, it isn't there. They may believe that the previous
message is quoted automatically (I'm speaking of the new version of
groups) or they may not realize that with newsreaders the threads
aren't presented as threads that can be followed.
Now that I can see the issues, I agree with you that google needs to
do a much better job at communicating how it works. It's as if they
don't give a ***** about the old school and will just force their way
down everyone's throats.
Dean
.
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| User: "maff" |
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| Title: Re: OT: Google Groups is ruining Usenet |
15 Apr 2005 08:11:34 AM |
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wrote:
Frank J Warner wrote:
What's up with Google Groups and why is it ruining Usenet?
Because google has gotten so big it forgot what made it big:
the users. The company is worth so much money that they don't
care what the public wants anymore.
Edmund Burke once said, "All that is necessary for the triumph
of evil in America is for good men to do nothing." Well, google
_is_ doing nothing: it is not answering to its users, it is not
responding to emails (no, not just mine), it is not correcting
its mistakes, and it is not responding to its own "report google
problems" newsgroup. Google is violating its own "Do no evil"
policy by doing nothing.
If you want to use google groups the old way, try the UK site:
http://groups.google.co.uk
Personally, the only thing I didn't like about the old system
was that it took nine hours for replies to be posted. Why they
couldn't leave well enough alone and change the one problem, I
would like to know. But, of course, they think they don't have
to answer to the public, only the shareholders.
You can always post it on
http://groups.google.co.uk/groups?safe=images&as_ugroup=alt.atheism&as_scoring=d&lr=&num=100&hl=en
and display it on
http://groups-beta.google.com/group/alt.atheism
Recently, I've been plonking many Google Groups users simply
because
they are unable, using that service, to follow simple and
time-honored
Usenet conventions; primarily the custom of quoting text, so others
(who don't use Google) know to whom and to what topic their replies
are
intended.
I am tired of plowing through a long thread, only to get to the
47th
post and read something like "I agree, and here's why:" with no
quoting
of what the poster is agreeing with, no reference to whom he is
agreeing, no attribution of previous arguments and so on.
Odds are these are the same morons who top-post. Now they can
display their laziness and stupidity all that much faster.
Bob Dog
-----
Divine retribution is an idol threat.
.
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| User: "George Dance" |
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| Title: Re: OT: Google Groups is ruining Usenet |
15 Apr 2005 12:51:14 AM |
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I quite agree.
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| User: "Meteorite Debris" |
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| Title: Re: OT: Google Groups is ruining Usenet |
16 Apr 2005 03:11:52 AM |
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Me 2 ;-).
--
rot13
apatriot #1, atheist #1417,
Chief EAC prophet
Jason Gastrich is praying for me on 8 January 2009
http://members.optusnet.com.au/~pk1956/
Apatriotism Yahoo Group
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/apatriotism
Sunday: A day given over by Americans to wishing that they themselves
were dead and in Heaven, and that their neighbors were dead and in
Hell.
-Mencken
.
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| User: "Arturo Magidin" |
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| Title: Re: OT: Google Groups is ruining Usenet |
14 Apr 2005 04:48:51 PM |
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In article <140420050934053313%warnerf@veriSPAMMERSDIEzon.net>,
Frank J Warner <warnerf@veriSPAMMERSDIEzon.net> wrote:
What's up with Google Groups and why is it ruining Usenet?
Recently, I've been plonking many Google Groups users simply because
they are unable, using that service, to follow simple and time-honored
Usenet conventions; primarily the custom of quoting text, so others
(who don't use Google) know to whom and to what topic their replies are
intended.
I've complained to google about it; I suggest you do as well.
The problem is that the "reply" link at the bottom of posts will send
you to a page with quoted text if and only if you need to sign in
first; if google already knows "who you are" then it will simply open
up a box for you to type in your answer, with no quoting.
However, Google Groups always offers the option of following up with
quoted text; it is, however, hard to find: if you go to the top of the
message (instead of the bottom) and click on "other options", and then
click on the "Reply" button there, then it will ->always<- (as far as
I can determine) send you to a reply form like it used to, with quoted
text.
I've sent messages to google requesting that a "Reply with quoted
text" link be either substituted for, or added to, the reply link at
the bottom of the message.
People, if you are going to use Google, PLEASE manually quote any
messages that you are replying to.
You don't have to: use the "Reply" link on the top of the messages
instead of the bottom. Much simpler.
Otherwise, I completely and fully agree with your sentiments.
I encourage everyone who is as annoyed as Frank and I are to drop
Google Groups a note telling them to make it easier to reply quoting.
--
======================================================================
"It's not denial. I'm just very selective about
what I accept as reality."
--- Calvin ("Calvin and Hobbes")
======================================================================
Arturo Magidin
magidin@math.berkeley.edu
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| User: "Frank J Warner" |
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| Title: Re: OT: Google Groups is ruining Usenet |
14 Apr 2005 06:34:53 PM |
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In article <d3m6tj$rqm$1@agate.berkeley.edu>, Arturo Magidin
<magidin@math.berkeley.edu> wrote:
In article <140420050934053313%warnerf@veriSPAMMERSDIEzon.net>,
Frank J Warner <warnerf@veriSPAMMERSDIEzon.net> wrote:
What's up with Google Groups and why is it ruining Usenet?
Recently, I've been plonking many Google Groups users simply because
they are unable, using that service, to follow simple and time-honored
Usenet conventions; primarily the custom of quoting text, so others
(who don't use Google) know to whom and to what topic their replies are
intended.
I've complained to google about it; I suggest you do as well.
Done.
-Frank
--
fwarner1-at-franksknives-dot-com
Here's some of my work:
http://www.franksknives.com/
.
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| User: "LisaKay" |
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| Title: Re: OT: Google Groups is ruining Usenet |
14 Apr 2005 09:20:47 PM |
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Oh look, you can quote with Google. Oops! Now I'm gonna get yelled at
for top-posting, huh? See below
Frank J Warner wrote:
What's up with Google Groups and why is it ruining Usenet?
Recently, I've been plonking many Google Groups users simply because
they are unable, using that service, to follow simple and
time-honored
Usenet conventions; primarily the custom of quoting text, so others
(who don't use Google) know to whom and to what topic their replies
are
intended.
I am tired of plowing through a long thread, only to get to the 47th
post and read something like "I agree, and here's why:" with no
quoting
of what the poster is agreeing with, no reference to whom he is
agreeing, no attribution of previous arguments and so on.
It's aggravating, and I'm starting to see more and more of it as
people
gravitate to the web-based Usenet service, hence more and more people
are ending up in my kill file for no other reason than my inability
to
follow their lines of reference in a complex thread.
People, if you are going to use Google, PLEASE manually quote any
messages that you are replying to. While it's obvious to you and
other
Google Groups users to whom and what you are replying, millions of
others, using robust and full-featured newsreaders, have no clue, so
you end up sounding like idiots; the guy in the class who always
starts
talking without raising his hand. Even if you have something
interesting and important to say, we can't alwyas be sure who you're
saying it to and why. You're getting lost in the noise.
Google, Usenet does not belong to you. You might be the 800 lb.
gorilla, but Usenet is the spermatozoa that spawned you, so you owe
it
to millions of experienced users to make *your* implementation of a
"newsreader" compliant with time-honored and *useful* Usenet
etiquette.
Rant over.
-Frank
--
fwarner1-at-franksknives-dot-com
Here's some of my work:
http://www.franksknives.com/
Now I think I've got it!!
You can unkillfile me if you can see this message! :-)
-LisaKay
aa #2054
.
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| User: "Gregory A Greenman" |
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| Title: Re: OT: Google Groups is ruining Usenet |
15 Apr 2005 08:56:38 AM |
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In article <1113513647.627998.186300
@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>, LisaKay <LisaKay2054@hotmail.com>
declared...
Now I think I've got it!!
You can unkillfile me if you can see this message! :-)
Thank you, thank you, thank you.
--
Greg
----
greg -at- spencersoft -dot- com
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| User: "Frank J Warner" |
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| Title: Re: OT: Google Groups is ruining Usenet |
14 Apr 2005 10:12:57 PM |
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In article <1113513647.627998.186300@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
LisaKay <LisaKay2054@hotmail.com> wrote:
Oh look, you can quote with Google. Oops! Now I'm gonna get yelled at
for top-posting, huh? See below
Frank J Warner wrote:
What's up with Google Groups and why is it ruining Usenet?
Recently, I've been plonking many Google Groups users simply because
they are unable, using that service, to follow simple and
time-honored
Usenet conventions; primarily the custom of quoting text, so others
(who don't use Google) know to whom and to what topic their replies
are
intended.
I am tired of plowing through a long thread, only to get to the 47th
post and read something like "I agree, and here's why:" with no
quoting
of what the poster is agreeing with, no reference to whom he is
agreeing, no attribution of previous arguments and so on.
It's aggravating, and I'm starting to see more and more of it as
people
gravitate to the web-based Usenet service, hence more and more people
are ending up in my kill file for no other reason than my inability
to
follow their lines of reference in a complex thread.
People, if you are going to use Google, PLEASE manually quote any
messages that you are replying to. While it's obvious to you and
other
Google Groups users to whom and what you are replying, millions of
others, using robust and full-featured newsreaders, have no clue, so
you end up sounding like idiots; the guy in the class who always
starts
talking without raising his hand. Even if you have something
interesting and important to say, we can't alwyas be sure who you're
saying it to and why. You're getting lost in the noise.
Google, Usenet does not belong to you. You might be the 800 lb.
gorilla, but Usenet is the spermatozoa that spawned you, so you owe
it
to millions of experienced users to make *your* implementation of a
"newsreader" compliant with time-honored and *useful* Usenet
etiquette.
Rant over.
-Frank
--
fwarner1-at-franksknives-dot-com
Here's some of my work:
http://www.franksknives.com/
Now I think I've got it!!
You can unkillfile me if you can see this message! :-)
Done! :)
-Frank
--
fwarner1-at-franksknives-dot-com
Here's some of my work:
http://www.franksknives.com/
.
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| User: "raven1" |
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| Title: Re: OT: Google Groups is ruining Usenet |
15 Apr 2005 12:31:01 AM |
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On Thu, 14 Apr 2005 09:34:05 -0700, Frank J Warner
<warnerf@veriSPAMMERSDIEzon.net> wrote:
I agree, and here's why... ;-)
.
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| User: "Frank J Warner" |
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| Title: Re: OT: Google Groups is ruining Usenet |
15 Apr 2005 02:44:58 AM |
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In article <bq2u51pg8dld8lnn7gjvl9ojfbut0ojosu@4ax.com>, raven1
<quoththeraven@nevermore.com> wrote:
On Thu, 14 Apr 2005 09:34:05 -0700, Frank J Warner
<warnerf@veriSPAMMERSDIEzon.net> wrote:
I agree, and here's why... ;-)
I knew there would be at least one wise-acre in the class. :/
-Frank
--
Here's some of my work:
http://www.franksknives.com
.
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| User: "LisaKay" |
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| Title: Re: OT: Google Groups is ruining Usenet |
14 Apr 2005 09:18:11 PM |
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So you can't see what I'm replying to? Because when I click on this
post, it will show what I'm replying to... OK I'll start manually
quoting. I didn't know it was a problem.\
-LisaKay
aa #2054
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| User: "Arturo Magidin" |
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| Title: Re: OT: Google Groups is ruining Usenet |
14 Apr 2005 09:20:31 PM |
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In article <1113513491.315479.282640@l41g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>,
LisaKay <LisaKay2054@hotmail.com> wrote:
So you can't see what I'm replying to? Because when I click on this
post, it will show what I'm replying to...
Google shows it. But if you are reading using other reading software
(e.g., a text based newsreader, like tin or trn), then you can't.
OK I'll start manually
quoting. I didn't know it was a problem.\
You don't have to quote manually: click on "show options" and then the
"reply" link that appears, at the ->top<- of the post.
--
======================================================================
"It's not denial. I'm just very selective about
what I accept as reality."
--- Calvin ("Calvin and Hobbes")
======================================================================
Arturo Magidin
magidin@math.berkeley.edu
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| User: "JessHC, aa#2220 thanks to Jason Gastrichs effort" |
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| Title: Re: OT: Google Groups is ruining Usenet |
15 Apr 2005 12:41:30 AM |
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Arturo Magidin wrote:
In article <1113513491.315479.282640@l41g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>,
LisaKay <LisaKay2054@hotmail.com> wrote:
So you can't see what I'm replying to? Because when I click on this
post, it will show what I'm replying to...
Google shows it. But if you are reading using other reading software
(e.g., a text based newsreader, like tin or trn), then you can't.
Actually, Googling with IE 6 on a Win98 pc (which I think makes me the
antichrist), I couldn't see what she was replying to.
OK I'll start manually
quoting. I didn't know it was a problem.\
You don't have to quote manually: click on "show options" and then
the
"reply" link that appears, at the ->top<- of the post.
It took me a while to figure that out. I think I finally wrote to
Google and asked them, because I was so irritated with the way Google
Groups works.
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