| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"maff" |
| Date: |
19 Sep 2004 03:10:13 PM |
| Object: |
OT: How Not to Win Muslim Allies |
How Not to Win Muslim Allies
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6039153/site/newsweek/
There are many in Europe who want to keep Turkey out of the EU because
it is large, poor and, most important, because it is Muslim
By Fareed Zakaria
Newsweek
Sept. 27 issue - Here's a quiz: over the past two years, which
developing country has undertaken the most dramatic economic,
political and social reforms in the world? Some hints: this country
has deregulated its economy, simplified its tax code and brought its
fiscal house in order, resulting in 8.2 percent growth this year and a
10 percent rise in productivity. It has passed nine packages of major
reforms that have reduced the military's influence in government,
enshrined political dissent and religious pluralism, passed strict
laws against torture, abolished the death penalty and given
substantial rights to a long-oppressed minority. The answer is Turkey.
Even if it were not a Muslim country situated in the Middle East (sort
of), its performance would be stunning. And yet, thanks to events last
week, its long-sought quest to become a full member of the European
Union may be thwarted.
Fareed Zakaria
http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&selm=18510aff.0311220342.2b20f7f%40posting.google.com
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| User: "Arjan arjan@morgaine" |
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| Title: Re: How Not to Win Muslim Allies |
20 Oct 2004 03:18:36 PM |
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"maff" <maff91@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:18510aff.0409191210.7fd903f2@posting.google.com...
How Not to Win Muslim Allies
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6039153/site/newsweek/
There are many in Europe who want to keep Turkey out of the EU because
it is large, poor and, most important, because it is Muslim
There are other reasons, something todo with human rights,
seperation between church and state, Army and state.
Rights of minorities (Assyrian christians, Kurds)
Are they already allowed to speak their own languages?
Since when?
Denial of the Armenian genocide. View of history in general
(Kemal A was nothing better than some of the other dictators
in his time like Mussolini)
They are simply not ready and probably never will be.
Arjan
By Fareed Zakaria
Newsweek
Sept. 27 issue - Here's a quiz: over the past two years, which
developing country has undertaken the most dramatic economic,
political and social reforms in the world? Some hints: this country
has deregulated its economy, simplified its tax code and brought its
fiscal house in order, resulting in 8.2 percent growth this year and a
10 percent rise in productivity. It has passed nine packages of major
reforms that have reduced the military's influence in government,
enshrined political dissent and religious pluralism, passed strict
laws against torture, abolished the death penalty and given
substantial rights to a long-oppressed minority. The answer is Turkey.
Even if it were not a Muslim country situated in the Middle East (sort
of), its performance would be stunning. And yet, thanks to events last
week, its long-sought quest to become a full member of the European
Union may be thwarted.
Fareed Zakaria
http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&selm=18510aff.0311220342.2b20f7f%40posting.google.com
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| User: "maff" |
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| Title: Re: How Not to Win Muslim Allies |
21 Oct 2004 03:13:19 PM |
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"Arjan" <arjan@morgaine> wrote in message news:<10ndi0lokoon213@corp.supernews.com>...
"maff" <maff91@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:18510aff.0409191210.7fd903f2@posting.google.com...
How Not to Win Muslim Allies
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6039153/site/newsweek/
There are many in Europe who want to keep Turkey out of the EU because
it is large, poor and, most important, because it is Muslim
There are other reasons, something todo with human rights,
seperation between church and state, Army and state.
Rights of minorities (Assyrian christians, Kurds)
Are they already allowed to speak their own languages?
Since when?
Denial of the Armenian genocide. View of history in general
(Kemal A was nothing better than some of the other dictators
in his time like Mussolini)
They are simply not ready and probably never will be.
They're not the only ones.
As Walter Lipman wrote in 1926: "We continue to think of ourselves as
a kind of great, peaceful Switzerland, whereas we are in fact a great,
expanding world power. Our imperialism is more or less unconscious."
http://books.guardian.co.uk/reviews/history/0,6121,1231462,00.html
http://forums.delphiforums.com/deconland/messages/?msg=2699
Walter Lipman
http://www.google.com/search?q=%22Walter+Lipman%22&num=100&hl=en&lr=&tab=nw&ie=UTF-8&sa=N
http://www.google.com/search?q=%22Walter+Lipman%22&num=100&hl=en&lr=&output=search&cat=gwd/Top
http://groups.google.com/groups?as_epq=Walter%20Lipman&safe=images&as_scoring=d&lr=&num=100&hl=en
http://news.google.com/news?q=%20%22Walter%20Lipman%22&num=100&hl=en&lr=&sa=N&tab=gn
A Century Of U.S. Military Interventions: From Wounded Knee to
Afghanistan
http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&selm=18510aff.0406222349.4826f37b%40posting.google.com
Death by Government
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1560009276/
by R. J. Rummel
RJ Rummel
http://www.google.com/search?q=%22RJ+Rummel%22&num=100&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&tab=nw&sa=N
http://news.google.com/news?q=%22RJ%20Rummel%22&num=100&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=wn
http://www.google.com/search?q=%22RJ+Rummel%22&num=100&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&output=search&cat=gwd/Top
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=%22RJ%20Rummel%22&num=100&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&sa=N&tab=dg
http://groups.google.com/groups?as_epq=RJ%20Rummel&safe=images&ie=UTF-8&as_scoring=d&lr=&num=100&hl=en
Arjan
By Fareed Zakaria
Newsweek
Sept. 27 issue - Here's a quiz: over the past two years, which
developing country has undertaken the most dramatic economic,
political and social reforms in the world? Some hints: this country
has deregulated its economy, simplified its tax code and brought its
fiscal house in order, resulting in 8.2 percent growth this year and a
10 percent rise in productivity. It has passed nine packages of major
reforms that have reduced the military's influence in government,
enshrined political dissent and religious pluralism, passed strict
laws against torture, abolished the death penalty and given
substantial rights to a long-oppressed minority. The answer is Turkey.
Even if it were not a Muslim country situated in the Middle East (sort
of), its performance would be stunning. And yet, thanks to events last
week, its long-sought quest to become a full member of the European
Union may be thwarted.
Fareed Zakaria
http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&selm=18510aff.0311220342.2b20f7f%40posting.google.com
.
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| User: "Arjan arjan@morgaine" |
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| Title: Re: How Not to Win Muslim Allies |
28 Oct 2004 12:30:23 PM |
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"maff" <maff91@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:18510aff.0409191210.7fd903f2@posting.google.com...
How Not to Win Muslim Allies
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6039153/site/newsweek/
There are many in Europe who want to keep Turkey out of the EU because
it is large, poor and, most important, because it is Muslim
It has something todo with human rights. Those are real concerns.
By Fareed Zakaria
Newsweek
Sept. 27 issue - Here's a quiz: over the past two years, which
developing country has undertaken the most dramatic economic,
political and social reforms in the world? Some hints: this country
has deregulated its economy, simplified its tax code and brought its
fiscal house in order, resulting in 8.2 percent growth this year and a
10 percent rise in productivity. It has passed nine packages of major
reforms that have reduced the military's influence in government,
enshrined political dissent and religious pluralism, passed strict
laws against torture, abolished the death penalty and given
substantial rights to a long-oppressed minority. The answer is Turkey.
Even if it were not a Muslim country situated in the Middle East (sort
of), its performance would be stunning. And yet, thanks to events last
week, its long-sought quest to become a full member of the European
Union may be thwarted.
Fareed Zakaria
http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&selm=18510aff.0311220342.2b20f7f%40posting.google.com
.
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| User: "Jenny6833A" |
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| Title: Re: How Not to Win Muslim Allies |
28 Oct 2004 02:06:41 PM |
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"Arjan" arjan@morgaine says
"maff" <maff91@yahoo.com> wrote
How Not to Win Muslim Allies
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6039153/site/newsweek/
There are many in Europe who want to keep Turkey out of the EU because
it is large, poor and, most important, because it is Muslim
It has something to do with human rights. Those are real concerns.
Both of the above are simplistic summaries.
The opposition has to do with maintaining secular governments in secular
societies -- societies in which religions are accepted (and even welcomed) so
long as religions are a private matter but in which religion is largely
rejected as a legitimate basis of party alignment and definitely rejected as a
basis of national or EU policy.
Laws and policies are debated not on "God-says" grounds but on (relatively)
rational ideological and practical grounds.
The refusal of many Muslims to accept that, a refusal which has occurred in
every European country that has allowed substantial immigration, is the cause
of the concern.
That concern would exist no matter the religion. Muslim, per se, is not the
point.
France, for example, has serious problems with it's 8% Muslim population. The
problems have little to do with nits like head scarves, dress, etc. Instead,
the basic problem is the refusal to integrate in the workplace and in the
schools; the refusal to accept the premises of the culture to which they have
voluntarily come; and the refusal to obey the law.
Turkey is large and poor, which guarantees mass movement to other EU countries.
That's NOT a concern so long as those who move accept the national cultures
they voluntarily move to.
Human rights is NOT a concern so long as Turkey as a nation accepts the EU
culture it voluntarily joins.
Muslim is NOT a concern so long as Muslims can be counted on to accept the
basic premise -- a publicly secular state -- of the national and EU cultures
they voluntarily move to.
If the situation in France (and in other countries with substantial Muslim
populations) were to change, opposition to Turkey would pretty much vanish.
:-)
Jenny
Before emailing, remove Clothes
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