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Topic: Religions > Atheism
User: "stoney"
Date: 03 Feb 2005 12:26:14 PM
Object: OT: Mark Morford
http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/g/a/2005/02/02/notes020205.DTL
Subject: Mark Morford: Come See Our Brutal Democracy
From: SF Gate Newsletters <mmorford@sfgate.com>
Date: Wed, Feb 2 2005 7:25:52 AM -0800
Come See Our Brutal Democracy
Freedom rings in Iraq! Bush was right all along! American wins! Or,
you know, not
- By Mark Morford, SF Gate Columnist
Wednesday, February 2, 2005
Ah, the violent march of democracy.
Beautiful thing, really, seeing repressed and weary Iraqis vote for
the first time, and dance in the bloody bombed-out streets, and avoid
the suicide bombers and of course not be able to travel between
provinces or drive anywhere in their locked-down nation and by the way
watch out for the snipers on the roofs.
It really is amazing, watching the deeply flawed system of democracy
take hold in a raw and decimated nation like a thorny weed cracking
through shattered concrete. All people deserve to be free and now
Iraqis have a tiny bloody taste of it and this is always, always a
good thing. I am not kidding.
So, should we be proud? Is Bush's thuggish and illegal pre-emptive
attack strategy justified? Are Iraq's first-ever elections a defining
moment in American political history? Are we all righteous and good
and holy, despite all the dead bodies and the hatred?
Well, sort of. But then again, not really. Should Bush get some credit
for all the cheering Iraqis who are now breathing sort of free? Well,
no. Not even close.
While it's always heartwarming to see a brutalized and disheartened
people flex their newfound freedom for the first time, the costs of
this teetering, fragile, force-fed, implode-at-any-moment democracy
are nauseating and appalling. You already know the numbers: $300
billion, over 1,400 dead U.S. soldiers and over 10,000 permanently
wounded and countless thousands of dead innocent Iraqi civilians --
and many, many more to come.
And let us not forget the biggest disclaimer of all: Not a single one
of BushCo's alleged reasons for dragging our fractured and bankrupt
nation into one of the most brutal wars since Vietnam has actually
proved valid or justifiable. The disgusting array of
WMD/nuclear/biotoxin lies and deceptions are not suddenly erased
because we set up some polling places.
How quickly we forget: A democratic Iraq was never the reason Bush
forced us into this war. Iraq's fledgling democracy is a pleasant side
effect, a bonus PR move, a heartstring-tugging and patriotic patina of
bogus humanitarianism BushCo is now trying to slather over one of the
most disastrous and inept military efforts in recent history. It makes
for terrific photo ops. It makes for miserable and debilitating
foreign policy.
Look. Democracy is good. Treasonous BushCo dishonesty and misprision
and an outright ignorance regarding exit strategies and the true costs
of war are not. Republicans and Bush apologists are quick to ignore,
in this momentary orgy of political spin and PR, how not a single one
of the problems Iraq faced before the elections has been solved. The
brutal insurgent violence is only increasing. U.S. soldiers are dying
in record numbers. Iraq is a violent mess. And Bush just asked for $80
billion more from the broke U.S. economy to fund the occupation, with
no end in sight.
Let's just say it outright: The ends do not justify the means. A
barely democratic Iraq is fine and good, but you well know that if
Bush had mumbled to the nation three years and $300 billion ago that
we were going to start bombing this *****-poor country back to the
Stone Age and gut the U.S. economy and put thousands of American
soldiers and tens of thousands of innocent Iraqis in death's way to
deliver it, all while sending the nastiest possible message to the
world and actually increasing the threat of terrorism while turning
our backs on every major U.S. ally, I doubt many Americans would have
giddily waved the flag of support (except maybe Ann Coulter, who
apparently loves anything involving guns and dead foreigners).
Let's put it another way: Here is your choice, America: $300 billion
and massive international disrespect and a huge pile of dead American
soldiers in an effort to force a fragile democracy onto a torn and
fractured Iraq by ousting their useless dictator who was, let us
repeat, no threat to us, or to anyone, and who was, in fact, our ally,
until he dared to threaten our oil.
Or: $300 billion to assist struggling nations and battle AIDS and
protect the planet, to evolve our international relationships and set
up treaties and unifying alliances and maybe even have a little left
over to help fix our own schools, maybe help all those destitute
American city upgrade their hospitals and fix their homeless problems
and even maybe launch a national health-care plan, spend that money on
trying to solve a huge host of social ills plaguing this crumbling
beautiful egomaniacal empire we call home.
Which do you choose? What cost democracy? Where do you draw your
lines?
Bush does not get credit for Iraq's fleeting glimpse of democracy for
the exact same reason you don't give the tsunami credit for cleansing
the streets of Indonesia. His motives were never, repeat never, to
bring democracy to Iraq. His motives were to oust a pip-squeak
dictator who threatened our access to 10 percent of the world's oil.
It was about power, and regional control, and ego, and petroleum.
Period.
Does this matter anymore? Iraq gets a glimmer of democratic hope and
all lies and broken international laws and oily policy shifts are
forgiven? Hardly.
Because if this is our new agenda, if we are suddenly the Hammer of
Democracy that slams our political system onto every country we feel
deserves it and damn the fiscal, emotional, spiritual and human costs,
well, let's get to it, already.
Let's right now start preparing for U.S. forces to march into that
pesky repressive China. Let us look forward to BushCo declaring war on
Iran, and then North Korea, and then huge parts of nondemocratic
Africa. Any day now, yes? How about Egypt? And Pakistan? And Jordan?
Dictatorships and monarchies and repressive, antidemocratic
oligarchies, all. Man, we'll be at war until 2045! Whee!
What about poor, beautiful Nepal, where the king just shut down the
government and closed all the airports and severed communication with
the rest of the world, and over 10,000 people have died in rebel
fighting and the military is patrolling the streets and citizens are
terrified and repressed and democracy is dying on the vine? Shouldn't
we be marching in there next week, Georgie? Saddle up, cowpokes!
Oh wait. Won't happen. Reason: Not convenient. Not strategically
lucrative. No oil reserves. No real power gain, except for maybe Iran,
which is why BushCo is already busy working with Israel to map out
bombing strategies.
In fact, to prove we don't really give a crap for the lovely "march of
democracy" Republicans so love to gloat over, let's note right here
how the U.S. regularly gives billions in aid to those very same
repressive, dictator-friendly burgs of Egypt and Jordan and Pakistan.
Ah, flagrant hypocrisy, thy name is Bush.
Look. Does America have a responsibility to the world to promote peace
and democratic ideals in the world whenever possible? Hell yes. Does
the world's richest and most gluttonous superpower have an obligation
to intervene when absolutely necessary and help repressed peoples
taste freedom and emerge from the shadow of evil dictators? You're
damn right.
But not this way. Not at this cost. Not via a staggering and
soul-mauling string of lies and abuse of power and a brutish foreign
policies that only alienate and aggravate and inflame. Not through
torture tactics and economic plundering and fear stratagems designed
to keep the exhausted American populace from asking too many questions
about this administration's real motives.
And not by way of a thuggish pre-emptive attack-first policy that goes
against everything America has stood for (i.e., defense, containment,
peace) for the past 100 years.
Meanwhile, in related news, an international team of scientists and
researchers announced that the world has roughly 10 years before the
effects of global warming become permanent and irreversible. Before
the Gulf Stream is permanently weakened and massive ice shelves melt
and the world is plunged more deeply in danger than we could ever
imagine.
You really want to protect democracy, Dubya? Ensure its survival? You
really want to have a lasting legacy, one not tainted with blood and
war and humiliating claims of "mission accomplished?" Here's a tiny
reminder: that $80 bil you just asked for to kill more Iraqis is 17
times higher than the EPA's entire budget. Maybe, just maybe,
something is just a little off in our nation's priorities? Just, you
know, a thought. Go democracy!
(c) 2005 SF Gate
--
Contempt of Congress meter reading-offscale.
Hello, theocracy with a fundamentalist US Supreme
Court who will ensure church and state are joined
at the hip like clergy and altar boys.
America 1776-Jan 2001 RIP
.

User: "johac"

Title: Re: OT: Mark Morford 04 Feb 2005 12:51:21 AM
In article <7lq401lbaviidalgqco830q412e5rvu7u6@4ax.com>,
stoney <stoney@the.net> wrote:

http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/g/a/2005/02/02/notes020205.DTL

Subject: Mark Morford: Come See Our Brutal Democracy
From: SF Gate Newsletters <mmorford@sfgate.com>
Date: Wed, Feb 2 2005 7:25:52 AM -0800

Come See Our Brutal Democracy
Freedom rings in Iraq! Bush was right all along! American wins! Or,
you know, not
- By Mark Morford, SF Gate Columnist
Wednesday, February 2, 2005

Ah, the violent march of democracy.

Beautiful thing, really, seeing repressed and weary Iraqis vote for
the first time, and dance in the bloody bombed-out streets, and avoid
the suicide bombers and of course not be able to travel between
provinces or drive anywhere in their locked-down nation and by the way
watch out for the snipers on the roofs.

It really is amazing, watching the deeply flawed system of democracy
take hold in a raw and decimated nation like a thorny weed cracking
through shattered concrete. All people deserve to be free and now
Iraqis have a tiny bloody taste of it and this is always, always a
good thing. I am not kidding.

So, should we be proud? Is Bush's thuggish and illegal pre-emptive
attack strategy justified? Are Iraq's first-ever elections a defining
moment in American political history? Are we all righteous and good
and holy, despite all the dead bodies and the hatred?

Well, sort of. But then again, not really. Should Bush get some credit
for all the cheering Iraqis who are now breathing sort of free? Well,
no. Not even close.

While it's always heartwarming to see a brutalized and disheartened
people flex their newfound freedom for the first time, the costs of
this teetering, fragile, force-fed, implode-at-any-moment democracy
are nauseating and appalling. You already know the numbers: $300
billion, over 1,400 dead U.S. soldiers and over 10,000 permanently
wounded and countless thousands of dead innocent Iraqi civilians --
and many, many more to come.

And let us not forget the biggest disclaimer of all: Not a single one
of BushCo's alleged reasons for dragging our fractured and bankrupt
nation into one of the most brutal wars since Vietnam has actually
proved valid or justifiable. The disgusting array of
WMD/nuclear/biotoxin lies and deceptions are not suddenly erased
because we set up some polling places.

How quickly we forget: A democratic Iraq was never the reason Bush
forced us into this war. Iraq's fledgling democracy is a pleasant side
effect, a bonus PR move, a heartstring-tugging and patriotic patina of
bogus humanitarianism BushCo is now trying to slather over one of the
most disastrous and inept military efforts in recent history. It makes
for terrific photo ops. It makes for miserable and debilitating
foreign policy.

Look. Democracy is good. Treasonous BushCo dishonesty and misprision
and an outright ignorance regarding exit strategies and the true costs
of war are not. Republicans and Bush apologists are quick to ignore,
in this momentary orgy of political spin and PR, how not a single one
of the problems Iraq faced before the elections has been solved. The
brutal insurgent violence is only increasing. U.S. soldiers are dying
in record numbers. Iraq is a violent mess. And Bush just asked for $80
billion more from the broke U.S. economy to fund the occupation, with
no end in sight.

Let's just say it outright: The ends do not justify the means. A
barely democratic Iraq is fine and good, but you well know that if
Bush had mumbled to the nation three years and $300 billion ago that
we were going to start bombing this *****-poor country back to the
Stone Age and gut the U.S. economy and put thousands of American
soldiers and tens of thousands of innocent Iraqis in death's way to
deliver it, all while sending the nastiest possible message to the
world and actually increasing the threat of terrorism while turning
our backs on every major U.S. ally, I doubt many Americans would have
giddily waved the flag of support (except maybe Ann Coulter, who
apparently loves anything involving guns and dead foreigners).

Let's put it another way: Here is your choice, America: $300 billion
and massive international disrespect and a huge pile of dead American
soldiers in an effort to force a fragile democracy onto a torn and
fractured Iraq by ousting their useless dictator who was, let us
repeat, no threat to us, or to anyone, and who was, in fact, our ally,
until he dared to threaten our oil.

Or: $300 billion to assist struggling nations and battle AIDS and
protect the planet, to evolve our international relationships and set
up treaties and unifying alliances and maybe even have a little left
over to help fix our own schools, maybe help all those destitute
American city upgrade their hospitals and fix their homeless problems
and even maybe launch a national health-care plan, spend that money on
trying to solve a huge host of social ills plaguing this crumbling
beautiful egomaniacal empire we call home.

Which do you choose? What cost democracy? Where do you draw your
lines?

Bush does not get credit for Iraq's fleeting glimpse of democracy for
the exact same reason you don't give the tsunami credit for cleansing
the streets of Indonesia. His motives were never, repeat never, to
bring democracy to Iraq. His motives were to oust a pip-squeak
dictator who threatened our access to 10 percent of the world's oil.
It was about power, and regional control, and ego, and petroleum.
Period.

Does this matter anymore? Iraq gets a glimmer of democratic hope and
all lies and broken international laws and oily policy shifts are
forgiven? Hardly.

Because if this is our new agenda, if we are suddenly the Hammer of
Democracy that slams our political system onto every country we feel
deserves it and damn the fiscal, emotional, spiritual and human costs,
well, let's get to it, already.

Let's right now start preparing for U.S. forces to march into that
pesky repressive China. Let us look forward to BushCo declaring war on
Iran, and then North Korea, and then huge parts of nondemocratic
Africa. Any day now, yes? How about Egypt? And Pakistan? And Jordan?
Dictatorships and monarchies and repressive, antidemocratic
oligarchies, all. Man, we'll be at war until 2045! Whee!

What about poor, beautiful Nepal, where the king just shut down the
government and closed all the airports and severed communication with
the rest of the world, and over 10,000 people have died in rebel
fighting and the military is patrolling the streets and citizens are
terrified and repressed and democracy is dying on the vine? Shouldn't
we be marching in there next week, Georgie? Saddle up, cowpokes!

Oh wait. Won't happen. Reason: Not convenient. Not strategically
lucrative. No oil reserves. No real power gain, except for maybe Iran,
which is why BushCo is already busy working with Israel to map out
bombing strategies.

In fact, to prove we don't really give a crap for the lovely "march of
democracy" Republicans so love to gloat over, let's note right here
how the U.S. regularly gives billions in aid to those very same
repressive, dictator-friendly burgs of Egypt and Jordan and Pakistan.
Ah, flagrant hypocrisy, thy name is Bush.

Look. Does America have a responsibility to the world to promote peace
and democratic ideals in the world whenever possible? Hell yes. Does
the world's richest and most gluttonous superpower have an obligation
to intervene when absolutely necessary and help repressed peoples
taste freedom and emerge from the shadow of evil dictators? You're
damn right.

But not this way. Not at this cost. Not via a staggering and
soul-mauling string of lies and abuse of power and a brutish foreign
policies that only alienate and aggravate and inflame. Not through
torture tactics and economic plundering and fear stratagems designed
to keep the exhausted American populace from asking too many questions
about this administration's real motives.

And not by way of a thuggish pre-emptive attack-first policy that goes
against everything America has stood for (i.e., defense, containment,
peace) for the past 100 years.

Meanwhile, in related news, an international team of scientists and
researchers announced that the world has roughly 10 years before the
effects of global warming become permanent and irreversible. Before
the Gulf Stream is permanently weakened and massive ice shelves melt
and the world is plunged more deeply in danger than we could ever
imagine.

You really want to protect democracy, Dubya? Ensure its survival? You
really want to have a lasting legacy, one not tainted with blood and
war and humiliating claims of "mission accomplished?" Here's a tiny
reminder: that $80 bil you just asked for to kill more Iraqis is 17
times higher than the EPA's entire budget. Maybe, just maybe,
something is just a little off in our nation's priorities? Just, you
know, a thought. Go democracy!

(c) 2005 SF Gate

Moford got this one right on.
--
John Hachmann aa #1782
Intelligent Design has as much to do with science as reality
television has to do with reality. - Barry Lynn on CNN 12/25/04
.
User: "stoney"

Title: Re: OT: Mark Morford 04 Feb 2005 09:59:36 AM
On Thu, 03 Feb 2005 22:51:21 -0800, johac <jhachm@ixpres.com> wrote:

In article <7lq401lbaviidalgqco830q412e5rvu7u6@4ax.com>,
stoney <stoney@the.net> wrote:

http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/g/a/2005/02/02/notes020205.DTL

Subject: Mark Morford: Come See Our Brutal Democracy
From: SF Gate Newsletters <mmorford@sfgate.com>
Date: Wed, Feb 2 2005 7:25:52 AM -0800

Come See Our Brutal Democracy
Freedom rings in Iraq! Bush was right all along! American wins! Or,
you know, not
- By Mark Morford, SF Gate Columnist
Wednesday, February 2, 2005

Ah, the violent march of democracy.

Beautiful thing, really, seeing repressed and weary Iraqis vote for
the first time, and dance in the bloody bombed-out streets, and avoid
the suicide bombers and of course not be able to travel between
provinces or drive anywhere in their locked-down nation and by the way
watch out for the snipers on the roofs.

[]

You really want to protect democracy, Dubya? Ensure its survival? You
really want to have a lasting legacy, one not tainted with blood and
war and humiliating claims of "mission accomplished?" Here's a tiny
reminder: that $80 bil you just asked for to kill more Iraqis is 17
times higher than the EPA's entire budget. Maybe, just maybe,
something is just a little off in our nation's priorities? Just, you
know, a thought. Go democracy!

(c) 2005 SF Gate


Moford got this one right on.

Sadly.
--
Contempt of Congress meter reading-offscale.
Hello, theocracy with a fundamentalist US Supreme
Court who will ensure church and state are joined
at the hip like clergy and altar boys.
America 1776-Jan 2001 RIP
.
User: "johac"

Title: Re: OT: Mark Morford 05 Feb 2005 01:50:42 AM
In article <bt670156jfosqjr8ca8sj91ufof4eoept0@4ax.com>,
stoney <stoney@the.net> wrote:

On Thu, 03 Feb 2005 22:51:21 -0800, johac <jhachm@ixpres.com> wrote:

In article <7lq401lbaviidalgqco830q412e5rvu7u6@4ax.com>,
stoney <stoney@the.net> wrote:

http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/g/a/2005/02/02/notes020205.DTL

Subject: Mark Morford: Come See Our Brutal Democracy
From: SF Gate Newsletters <mmorford@sfgate.com>
Date: Wed, Feb 2 2005 7:25:52 AM -0800

Come See Our Brutal Democracy
Freedom rings in Iraq! Bush was right all along! American wins! Or,
you know, not
- By Mark Morford, SF Gate Columnist
Wednesday, February 2, 2005

Ah, the violent march of democracy.

Beautiful thing, really, seeing repressed and weary Iraqis vote for
the first time, and dance in the bloody bombed-out streets, and avoid
the suicide bombers and of course not be able to travel between
provinces or drive anywhere in their locked-down nation and by the way
watch out for the snipers on the roofs.

[]

You really want to protect democracy, Dubya? Ensure its survival? You
really want to have a lasting legacy, one not tainted with blood and
war and humiliating claims of "mission accomplished?" Here's a tiny
reminder: that $80 bil you just asked for to kill more Iraqis is 17
times higher than the EPA's entire budget. Maybe, just maybe,
something is just a little off in our nation's priorities? Just, you
know, a thought. Go democracy!

(c) 2005 SF Gate


Moford got this one right on.


Sadly.

I wonder if what I'm feeling is what the Romans felt in the last days of
their republic, or more recent what the democratic Germans felt in the
last days of Weimar.
--
John Hachmann aa #1782
Intelligent Design has as much to do with science as reality
television has to do with reality. - Barry Lynn on CNN 12/25/04
.
User: "Al Klein"

Title: Re: OT: Mark Morford 06 Feb 2005 12:58:14 PM
On Fri, 04 Feb 2005 23:50:42 -0800, johac <jhachm@ixpres.com> said in
alt.atheism:

I wonder if what I'm feeling is what the Romans felt in the last days of
their republic, or more recent what the democratic Germans felt in the
last days of Weimar.

More likely what our ancestors felt 100,000 years ago as the ice
sheets descended on Europe. This is going to be global, non-fixable
climate change.
--
"So much blood has been shed by the Church because of an omission from the Gospel: "Ye
shall be indifferent as to what your neighbor's religion is." Not merely tolerant of it,
but indifferent to it. Divinity is claimed for many religions; but no religion is great
enough or divine enough to add that new law to its code."
- Mark Twain, a Biography
(random sig, produced by SigChanger)
rukbat at verizon dot net
.
User: "johac"

Title: Re: OT: Mark Morford 06 Feb 2005 11:05:40 PM
In article <84qc01likgri8e3g8rp61ugebmgg1290cb@4ax.com>,
Al Klein <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote:

On Fri, 04 Feb 2005 23:50:42 -0800, johac <jhachm@ixpres.com> said in
alt.atheism:

I wonder if what I'm feeling is what the Romans felt in the last days of
their republic, or more recent what the democratic Germans felt in the
last days of Weimar.


More likely what our ancestors felt 100,000 years ago as the ice
sheets descended on Europe. This is going to be global, non-fixable
climate change.

I'm certain that it will take more than our lifetimes to repair the
damage that this administration has done to the country and the world.
--
John Hachmann aa #1782
Intelligent Design has as much to do with science as reality
television has to do with reality. - Barry Lynn on CNN 12/25/04
.
User: "Al Klein"

Title: Re: OT: Mark Morford 07 Feb 2005 03:42:23 PM
On Sun, 06 Feb 2005 21:05:40 -0800, johac <jhachm@ixpres.com> said in
alt.atheism:

In article <84qc01likgri8e3g8rp61ugebmgg1290cb@4ax.com>,
Al Klein <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote:

On Fri, 04 Feb 2005 23:50:42 -0800, johac <jhachm@ixpres.com> said in
alt.atheism:

I wonder if what I'm feeling is what the Romans felt in the last days of
their republic, or more recent what the democratic Germans felt in the
last days of Weimar.

More likely what our ancestors felt 100,000 years ago as the ice
sheets descended on Europe. This is going to be global, non-fixable
climate change.

I'm certain that it will take more than our lifetimes to repair the
damage that this administration has done to the country and the world.

As far as the climate change? Study a little paleometeorology and
you'll see that the long-term weather pattern runs in 100,000 year
cycles - 10,000 years of interglacial (what we've had) and 90,000
years of glacial (ice age). I'd say that's a bit more than "our
lifetimes". :)
--
"The study of geology is ok-But not when it contradicts what is laid
out in the Bible that the earth is more than 10,000 years old."
- Doug Lee, Creationist
(random sig, produced by SigChanger)
rukbat at verizon dot net
.
User: "johac"

Title: Re: OT: Mark Morford 08 Feb 2005 12:49:18 AM
In article <m1of015amj77of8m15ril2n3bp9uue3vv1@4ax.com>,
Al Klein <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote:

On Sun, 06 Feb 2005 21:05:40 -0800, johac <jhachm@ixpres.com> said in
alt.atheism:

In article <84qc01likgri8e3g8rp61ugebmgg1290cb@4ax.com>,
Al Klein <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote:

On Fri, 04 Feb 2005 23:50:42 -0800, johac <jhachm@ixpres.com> said in
alt.atheism:


I wonder if what I'm feeling is what the Romans felt in the last days of
their republic, or more recent what the democratic Germans felt in the
last days of Weimar.


More likely what our ancestors felt 100,000 years ago as the ice
sheets descended on Europe. This is going to be global, non-fixable
climate change.


I'm certain that it will take more than our lifetimes to repair the
damage that this administration has done to the country and the world.


As far as the climate change? Study a little paleometeorology and
you'll see that the long-term weather pattern runs in 100,000 year
cycles - 10,000 years of interglacial (what we've had) and 90,000
years of glacial (ice age). I'd say that's a bit more than "our
lifetimes". :)

Actually, I was referring to his overall policies. Most scientists in
the field acknowledge that global warming is real, part due to variation
in the earth's axial tilt (Milankovich cycle) part due to the greenhouse
gas effect. What is under debate now is the degree to which human
activity contributes to the latter. Most also agree that curbing
emissions of greenhouse gasses wouldn't hurt and might actually help a
bit.
--
John Hachmann aa #1782
Intelligent Design has as much to do with science as reality
television has to do with reality. - Barry Lynn on CNN 12/25/04
.


User: "TCS"

Title: Re: OT: Mark Morford 06 Feb 2005 11:19:24 PM
On Sun, 06 Feb 2005 21:05:40 -0800, johac <jhachm@ixpres.com> wrote:

In article <84qc01likgri8e3g8rp61ugebmgg1290cb@4ax.com>,
Al Klein <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote:

On Fri, 04 Feb 2005 23:50:42 -0800, johac <jhachm@ixpres.com> said in
alt.atheism:

I wonder if what I'm feeling is what the Romans felt in the last days of
their republic, or more recent what the democratic Germans felt in the
last days of Weimar.


More likely what our ancestors felt 100,000 years ago as the ice
sheets descended on Europe. This is going to be global, non-fixable
climate change.

I'm certain that it will take more than our lifetimes to repair the
damage that this administration has done to the country and the world.

Much of the damage will never be repaired. I doubt the U.S. federal government
has any chance left of not going bankrupt within the next ten years or so.
We'll see in a couple of years when deficits approach a full trillion per
year with half of it going towards interest payments.
.
User: "Al Klein"

Title: Re: OT: Mark Morford 07 Feb 2005 03:43:09 PM
On Sun, 06 Feb 2005 23:19:24 -0600, TCS
<The-Central-Scrutinizer@p.o.b.o.x.com> said in alt.atheism:

Much of the damage will never be repaired. I doubt the U.S. federal government
has any chance left of not going bankrupt within the next ten years or so.
We'll see in a couple of years when deficits approach a full trillion per
year with half of it going towards interest payments.

Just call us "Brazil of the North". Or was that Argentina?
--
"Damn. Looks like all of usenet agrees that you don't have the logical
faculties to prove the statement 'dogshit is not peanut butter' if we
gave you a jar of each and a box of crackers" - John Hattan to Tichy
(random sig, produced by SigChanger)
rukbat at verizon dot net
.
User: "TCS"

Title: Re: OT: Mark Morford 07 Feb 2005 04:34:12 PM
On Mon, 07 Feb 2005 21:43:09 GMT, Al Klein <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote:

On Sun, 06 Feb 2005 23:19:24 -0600, TCS
<The-Central-Scrutinizer@p.o.b.o.x.com> said in alt.atheism:

Much of the damage will never be repaired. I doubt the U.S. federal government
has any chance left of not going bankrupt within the next ten years or so.
We'll see in a couple of years when deficits approach a full trillion per
year with half of it going towards interest payments.

Just call us "Brazil of the North". Or was that Argentina?

When the soviet union went under, it had it's original countries to fall
back to. I wonder what'll happen in the U.S.. Perhaps civil war between the
urbanites (blue voters) and the hillbillies (red voters).
.
User: "johac"

Title: Re: OT: Mark Morford 08 Feb 2005 12:56:04 AM
In article
<slrnd0fr74.vv1.The-Central-Scrutinizer@linux.client.comcast.net>,
TCS <The-Central-Scrutinizer@p.o.b.o.x.com> wrote:

On Mon, 07 Feb 2005 21:43:09 GMT, Al Klein <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote:

On Sun, 06 Feb 2005 23:19:24 -0600, TCS
<The-Central-Scrutinizer@p.o.b.o.x.com> said in alt.atheism:


Much of the damage will never be repaired. I doubt the U.S. federal
government
has any chance left of not going bankrupt within the next ten years or so.
We'll see in a couple of years when deficits approach a full trillion per
year with half of it going towards interest payments.


Just call us "Brazil of the North". Or was that Argentina?


When the soviet union went under, it had it's original countries to fall
back to. I wonder what'll happen in the U.S.. Perhaps civil war between the
urbanites (blue voters) and the hillbillies (red voters).

Remember those maps after the election of the blue states seceding and
joining Canada?
http://www.hereinstead.com/sys-tmpl/jesuslandmaps/view.nhtml?profile=jesu
slandmaps&UID=10002
It may yet come to pass.
--
John Hachmann aa #1782
Intelligent Design has as much to do with science as reality
television has to do with reality. - Barry Lynn on CNN 12/25/04
.



User: "stoney"

Title: Re: OT: Mark Morford 08 Feb 2005 10:26:16 AM
On Sun, 06 Feb 2005 23:19:24 -0600, TCS
<The-Central-Scrutinizer@p.o.b.o.x.com> wrote:

On Sun, 06 Feb 2005 21:05:40 -0800, johac <jhachm@ixpres.com> wrote:

In article <84qc01likgri8e3g8rp61ugebmgg1290cb@4ax.com>,
Al Klein <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote:


On Fri, 04 Feb 2005 23:50:42 -0800, johac <jhachm@ixpres.com> said in
alt.atheism:

I wonder if what I'm feeling is what the Romans felt in the last days of
their republic, or more recent what the democratic Germans felt in the
last days of Weimar.


More likely what our ancestors felt 100,000 years ago as the ice
sheets descended on Europe. This is going to be global, non-fixable
climate change.


I'm certain that it will take more than our lifetimes to repair the
damage that this administration has done to the country and the world.


Much of the damage will never be repaired. I doubt the U.S. federal government
has any chance left of not going bankrupt within the next ten years or so.
We'll see in a couple of years when deficits approach a full trillion per
year with half of it going towards interest payments.

It'll be interesting to see a 'Bank Reposession' sign on the lawn of
the Brown House (former White House).
--
Contempt of Congress meter reading-offscale.
Hello, theocracy with a fundamentalist US Supreme
Court who will ensure church and state are joined
at the hip like clergy and altar boys.
America 1776-Jan 2001 RIP
.
User: "johac"

Title: Re: OT: Mark Morford 08 Feb 2005 11:56:49 PM
In article <9vph01pm4d02lkm2e7cd7ss9ce3hvdutbq@4ax.com>,
stoney <stoney@the.net> wrote:

On Sun, 06 Feb 2005 23:19:24 -0600, TCS
<The-Central-Scrutinizer@p.o.b.o.x.com> wrote:

On Sun, 06 Feb 2005 21:05:40 -0800, johac <jhachm@ixpres.com> wrote:

In article <84qc01likgri8e3g8rp61ugebmgg1290cb@4ax.com>,
Al Klein <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote:


On Fri, 04 Feb 2005 23:50:42 -0800, johac <jhachm@ixpres.com> said in
alt.atheism:

I wonder if what I'm feeling is what the Romans felt in the last days of
their republic, or more recent what the democratic Germans felt in the
last days of Weimar.


More likely what our ancestors felt 100,000 years ago as the ice
sheets descended on Europe. This is going to be global, non-fixable
climate change.


I'm certain that it will take more than our lifetimes to repair the
damage that this administration has done to the country and the world.


Much of the damage will never be repaired. I doubt the U.S. federal
government
has any chance left of not going bankrupt within the next ten years or so.
We'll see in a couple of years when deficits approach a full trillion per
year with half of it going towards interest payments.


It'll be interesting to see a 'Bank Reposession' sign on the lawn of
the Brown House (former White House).

I think that before that happens, they'll put the country up for auction
on eBay.
--
John Hachmann aa #1782
Intelligent Design has as much to do with science as reality
television has to do with reality. - Barry Lynn on CNN 12/25/04
.
User: "stoney"

Title: Re: OT: Mark Morford 09 Feb 2005 09:25:59 AM
On Tue, 08 Feb 2005 21:56:49 -0800, johac <jhachm@ixpres.com> wrote:

In article <9vph01pm4d02lkm2e7cd7ss9ce3hvdutbq@4ax.com>,
stoney <stoney@the.net> wrote:

On Sun, 06 Feb 2005 23:19:24 -0600, TCS
<The-Central-Scrutinizer@p.o.b.o.x.com> wrote:

On Sun, 06 Feb 2005 21:05:40 -0800, johac <jhachm@ixpres.com> wrote:

In article <84qc01likgri8e3g8rp61ugebmgg1290cb@4ax.com>,
Al Klein <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote:


On Fri, 04 Feb 2005 23:50:42 -0800, johac <jhachm@ixpres.com> said in
alt.atheism:

I wonder if what I'm feeling is what the Romans felt in the last days of
their republic, or more recent what the democratic Germans felt in the
last days of Weimar.


More likely what our ancestors felt 100,000 years ago as the ice
sheets descended on Europe. This is going to be global, non-fixable
climate change.


I'm certain that it will take more than our lifetimes to repair the
damage that this administration has done to the country and the world.


Much of the damage will never be repaired. I doubt the U.S. federal
government
has any chance left of not going bankrupt within the next ten years or so.
We'll see in a couple of years when deficits approach a full trillion per
year with half of it going towards interest payments.


It'll be interesting to see a 'Bank Reposession' sign on the lawn of
the Brown House (former White House).


I think that before that happens, they'll put the country up for auction
on eBay.

Without warranty.
--
Contempt of Congress meter reading-offscale.
Hello, theocracy with a fundamentalist US Supreme
Court who will ensure church and state are joined
at the hip like clergy and altar boys.
America 1776-Jan 2001 RIP
.
User: "johac"

Title: Re: OT: Mark Morford 10 Feb 2005 12:43:36 AM
In article <qrak015kjp0vb8b3c76cde0s75r94b9au3@4ax.com>,
stoney <stoney@the.net> wrote:

On Tue, 08 Feb 2005 21:56:49 -0800, johac <jhachm@ixpres.com> wrote:

In article <9vph01pm4d02lkm2e7cd7ss9ce3hvdutbq@4ax.com>,
stoney <stoney@the.net> wrote:

On Sun, 06 Feb 2005 23:19:24 -0600, TCS
<The-Central-Scrutinizer@p.o.b.o.x.com> wrote:

On Sun, 06 Feb 2005 21:05:40 -0800, johac <jhachm@ixpres.com> wrote:

In article <84qc01likgri8e3g8rp61ugebmgg1290cb@4ax.com>,
Al Klein <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote:


On Fri, 04 Feb 2005 23:50:42 -0800, johac <jhachm@ixpres.com> said in
alt.atheism:

I wonder if what I'm feeling is what the Romans felt in the last days
of
their republic, or more recent what the democratic Germans felt in
the
last days of Weimar.


More likely what our ancestors felt 100,000 years ago as the ice
sheets descended on Europe. This is going to be global, non-fixable
climate change.


I'm certain that it will take more than our lifetimes to repair the
damage that this administration has done to the country and the world.


Much of the damage will never be repaired. I doubt the U.S. federal
government
has any chance left of not going bankrupt within the next ten years or
so.
We'll see in a couple of years when deficits approach a full trillion per
year with half of it going towards interest payments.


It'll be interesting to see a 'Bank Reposession' sign on the lawn of
the Brown House (former White House).


I think that before that happens, they'll put the country up for auction
on eBay.


Without warranty.

'As is.'
--
John Hachmann aa #1782
Intelligent Design has as much to do with science as reality
television has to do with reality. - Barry Lynn on CNN 12/25/04
.
User: "Tukla Ratte"

Title: Re: OT: Mark Morford 10 Feb 2005 01:03:36 PM
johac wrote:

In article <qrak015kjp0vb8b3c76cde0s75r94b9au3@4ax.com>,
stoney <stoney@the.net> wrote:

On Tue, 08 Feb 2005 21:56:49 -0800, johac <jhachm@ixpres.com> wrote:

In article <9vph01pm4d02lkm2e7cd7ss9ce3hvdutbq@4ax.com>,
stoney <stoney@the.net> wrote:

< snip >

It'll be interesting to see a 'Bank Reposession' sign on the lawn of
the Brown House (former White House).


I think that before that happens, they'll put the country up for auction
on eBay.


Without warranty.


'As is.'

Who would want it "as is"?
--
Tukla, Eater of Theists, Squeaker of Chew Toys
Official Mascot of Alt.Atheism, aa 1347
.
User: "johac"

Title: Re: OT: Mark Morford 12 Feb 2005 01:04:54 AM
In article <371pgbF53thg2U1@individual.net>,
Tukla Ratte <tukla_ratte@tukla.net> wrote:

johac wrote:

In article <qrak015kjp0vb8b3c76cde0s75r94b9au3@4ax.com>,
stoney <stoney@the.net> wrote:

On Tue, 08 Feb 2005 21:56:49 -0800, johac <jhachm@ixpres.com> wrote:

In article <9vph01pm4d02lkm2e7cd7ss9ce3hvdutbq@4ax.com>,
stoney <stoney@the.net> wrote:


< snip >

It'll be interesting to see a 'Bank Reposession' sign on the lawn of
the Brown House (former White House).


I think that before that happens, they'll put the country up for auction
on eBay.


Without warranty.


'As is.'


Who would want it "as is"?

Maybe for scrap metal?
--
John Hachmann aa #1782
Intelligent Design has as much to do with science as reality
television has to do with reality. - Barry Lynn on CNN 12/25/04
.





User: "TCS"

Title: Re: OT: Mark Morford 08 Feb 2005 11:39:49 AM
On Tue, 08 Feb 2005 08:26:16 -0800, stoney <stoney@the.net> wrote:

On Sun, 06 Feb 2005 23:19:24 -0600, TCS
<The-Central-Scrutinizer@p.o.b.o.x.com> wrote:


Much of the damage will never be repaired. I doubt the U.S. federal government
has any chance left of not going bankrupt within the next ten years or so.
We'll see in a couple of years when deficits approach a full trillion per
year with half of it going towards interest payments.

It'll be interesting to see a 'Bank Reposession' sign on the lawn of
the Brown House (former White House).

Actually, I was ignoring the power the the aristocracy. Something convenient
for them will occur. If the debt is written off,
i'll screw those who hold treasury bonds. I guess it'll be mostly
foreigners who'll get the shaft. Maybe after the economic collapse, it
won't seem such a good idea to buy foreign goods on borrowed money.
.
User: "Al Klein"

Title: Re: OT: Mark Morford 08 Feb 2005 11:20:29 PM
On Tue, 08 Feb 2005 11:39:49 -0600, TCS
<The-Central-Scrutinizer@p.o.b.o.x.com> said in alt.atheism:

Actually, I was ignoring the power the the aristocracy. Something convenient
for them will occur. If the debt is written off,
i'll screw those who hold treasury bonds. I guess it'll be mostly
foreigners who'll get the shaft.

Unless those foreigners stop buying treasuries first. Then the
economy will collapse.
Euros, anyone?
--
"We should do unto others as we would want them to do unto us. If I were an unborn
fetus I would want others to use force to protect me, therefore using force against
abortionists is *justifiable homocide*."
- "Pro-Life" doctor killer and corpse Paul Hill
(random sig, produced by SigChanger)
rukbat at verizon dot net
.
User: "stoney"

Title: Re: OT: Mark Morford 09 Feb 2005 09:25:27 AM
On Wed, 09 Feb 2005 05:20:29 GMT, Al Klein <rukbat@pern.invalid>
wrote:

On Tue, 08 Feb 2005 11:39:49 -0600, TCS
<The-Central-Scrutinizer@p.o.b.o.x.com> said in alt.atheism:

Actually, I was ignoring the power the the aristocracy. Something convenient
for them will occur. If the debt is written off,
i'll screw those who hold treasury bonds. I guess it'll be mostly
foreigners who'll get the shaft.


Unless those foreigners stop buying treasuries first. Then the
economy will collapse.

Euros, anyone?

I suspect the world switch to Euros is already in progress.
--
Contempt of Congress meter reading-offscale.
Hello, theocracy with a fundamentalist US Supreme
Court who will ensure church and state are joined
at the hip like clergy and altar boys.
America 1776-Jan 2001 RIP
.


User: "stoney"

Title: Re: OT: Mark Morford 09 Feb 2005 09:23:41 AM
On Tue, 08 Feb 2005 11:39:49 -0600, TCS
<The-Central-Scrutinizer@p.o.b.o.x.com> wrote:

On Tue, 08 Feb 2005 08:26:16 -0800, stoney <stoney@the.net> wrote:

On Sun, 06 Feb 2005 23:19:24 -0600, TCS
<The-Central-Scrutinizer@p.o.b.o.x.com> wrote:



Much of the damage will never be repaired. I doubt the U.S. federal government
has any chance left of not going bankrupt within the next ten years or so.
We'll see in a couple of years when deficits approach a full trillion per
year with half of it going towards interest payments.


It'll be interesting to see a 'Bank Reposession' sign on the lawn of
the Brown House (former White House).


Actually, I was ignoring the power the the aristocracy.

Certainly.

Something convenient for them will occur. If the debt is written off,
i'll screw those who hold treasury bonds.

A flat declaration by the Fuher the debt is null and void wouldn't be
unexpected.

I guess it'll be mostly
foreigners who'll get the shaft. Maybe after the economic collapse, it
won't seem such a good idea to buy foreign goods on borrowed money.

--
Contempt of Congress meter reading-offscale.
Hello, theocracy with a fundamentalist US Supreme
Court who will ensure church and state are joined
at the hip like clergy and altar boys.
America 1776-Jan 2001 RIP
.






User: "stoney"

Title: Re: OT: Mark Morford 05 Feb 2005 10:55:35 AM
On Fri, 04 Feb 2005 23:50:42 -0800, johac <jhachm@ixpres.com> wrote:

In article <bt670156jfosqjr8ca8sj91ufof4eoept0@4ax.com>,
stoney <stoney@the.net> wrote:

On Thu, 03 Feb 2005 22:51:21 -0800, johac <jhachm@ixpres.com> wrote:

In article <7lq401lbaviidalgqco830q412e5rvu7u6@4ax.com>,
stoney <stoney@the.net> wrote:

http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/g/a/2005/02/02/notes020205.DTL

Subject: Mark Morford: Come See Our Brutal Democracy
From: SF Gate Newsletters <mmorford@sfgate.com>
Date: Wed, Feb 2 2005 7:25:52 AM -0800

Come See Our Brutal Democracy
Freedom rings in Iraq! Bush was right all along! American wins! Or,
you know, not
- By Mark Morford, SF Gate Columnist
Wednesday, February 2, 2005

Ah, the violent march of democracy.

Beautiful thing, really, seeing repressed and weary Iraqis vote for
the first time, and dance in the bloody bombed-out streets, and avoid
the suicide bombers and of course not be able to travel between
provinces or drive anywhere in their locked-down nation and by the way
watch out for the snipers on the roofs.

[]

You really want to protect democracy, Dubya? Ensure its survival? You
really want to have a lasting legacy, one not tainted with blood and
war and humiliating claims of "mission accomplished?" Here's a tiny
reminder: that $80 bil you just asked for to kill more Iraqis is 17
times higher than the EPA's entire budget. Maybe, just maybe,
something is just a little off in our nation's priorities? Just, you
know, a thought. Go democracy!

(c) 2005 SF Gate


Moford got this one right on.


Sadly.


I wonder if what I'm feeling is what the Romans felt in the last days of
their republic, or more recent what the democratic Germans felt in the
last days of Weimar.

More than likely.
--
Contempt of Congress meter reading-offscale.
Hello, theocracy with a fundamentalist US Supreme
Court who will ensure church and state are joined
at the hip like clergy and altar boys.
America 1776-Jan 2001 RIP
.





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