| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"Craig McDonald" |
| Date: |
17 Sep 2003 07:58:50 PM |
| Object: |
OT: Monkeys show sense of justice |
Interesting behavioural study:-
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/3116678.stm
Monkeys have a sense of justice. They will protest if they see another
monkey get paid more for the same task.
Researchers taught brown capuchin monkeys to swap tokens for food.
Usually they were happy to exchange this "money" for cucumber.
But if they saw another monkey getting a grape - a more-liked food -
they took offence. Some refused to work, others took the food and
refused to eat it.
Scientists say this work suggests that human's sense of justice is
inherited and not a social construct.
Differential reward experiment
The research was carried out at Emory University in the US, by Sarah
Brosnan and Frans de Waal, and is reported in the journal Nature.
"I'm extremely interested in the evolution of cooperation," Sarah
Brosnan told BBC News Online.
"One of the most interesting areas is the recent suggestion that human
cooperation is made more effective by a sense of fairness."
She wanted to find out if the human sense of fairness is an evolved
behaviour or a cultural construct - the result of society's rules.
So she and her colleagues devised an experiment using capuchin
monkeys.
Sarah Brosnan said: "I chose the capuchin because they are very
cooperative, and because they come from a very tolerant society.
"We designed a very simple experiment to see whether or not they react
to differential rewards and efforts."
Capuchins like cucumber, but they like grapes even more. So a system
was devised whereby pairs of capuchins were treated differently after
completing the same task.
"They had never before been in any sort of situation where they were
differentially rewarded," she said.
"We put pairs of capuchins side by side and one of them would get the
cucumber as a reward for a task."
The partner sometimes got the same food reward but on other occasions
got a grape, sometimes without even having to work for it."
'A highly unusual behaviour'
The response was dramatic, the researchers said.
"We were looking for a very objective reaction and we got one. They
typically refused the task they were set," Sarah Brosnan said.
"The other half of the time they would complete the task but wouldn't
take the reward. That is a highly unusual behaviour.
"Sometimes they ignored the reward, sometimes they took it and threw
it down," she added.
The researchers were not surprised that the monkeys showed a sense of
fairness, but they were taken aback that they would turn down an
otherwise acceptable reward.
"They never showed a reaction against their partner, they never blamed
them," Sarah Brosnan said.
Commenting on the results, experts in the subject told BBC News Online
that the idea of a long evolutionary history for a sense of fairness
was an exciting one.
However, they added that they would like to see more research
involving more than just the five subjects tested in the Nature study.
So does our instinctive feeling of fairness predate our species?
"It may well," Sarah Brosnan said, and further experiments are planned
to see how extensive a sense of justice in the animal world is.
"We are currently repeating the study on chimpanzees, a great ape
species, to learn something more about the evolutionary development of
the sense of fairness.
"I suspect that there are other non-primate species with tolerant
societies that will show the same behaviour."
Red Celt
aa#883
--
Boy, I've never seen an issue so divisive. It's like a civil war,
isn't it? Even amongst my friends, who are all very intelligent
people, they are totally divided on abortion. Some of my friends, for
instance, think these pro-life people are annoying idiots. Others of
my friends think these pro-life people are evil fucks.
How are we going to come to a consensus?
You want to hear the arguments around my house.
"They're annoying!"
"They're idiots!"
"They're evil!"
"They're fucks!"
Brothers, sisters come together! Can't we once just join hands and
think of them as evil annoying idiot fucks?
-- the late great Bill Hicks
"There are bits of banana peel floating up Belfast Lough that know
more about Irish politics than our JTEM." -- Chesney Christ
.
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| User: "johac" |
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| Title: Re: OT: Monkeys show sense of justice |
18 Sep 2003 12:42:16 AM |
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In article <nl0imvkvfrc62o5f2bbeikspir3i7rrb7e@4ax.com>,
Craig McDonald <rcd@craigmcdonald.com> wrote:
Interesting behavioural study:-
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/3116678.stm
Monkeys have a sense of justice. They will protest if they see another
monkey get paid more for the same task.
Researchers taught brown capuchin monkeys to swap tokens for food.
Usually they were happy to exchange this "money" for cucumber.
But if they saw another monkey getting a grape - a more-liked food -
they took offence. Some refused to work, others took the food and
refused to eat it.
Scientists say this work suggests that human's sense of justice is
inherited and not a social construct.
<snip>
"We were looking for a very objective reaction and we got one. They
typically refused the task they were set," Sarah Brosnan said.
"The other half of the time they would complete the task but wouldn't
take the reward. That is a highly unusual behaviour.
"Sometimes they ignored the reward, sometimes they took it and threw
it down," she added.
The researchers were not surprised that the monkeys showed a sense of
fairness, but they were taken aback that they would turn down an
otherwise acceptable reward.
"They never showed a reaction against their partner, they never blamed
them," Sarah Brosnan said.
Better than some humans that I know. If these monkeys have evolved a
sense of fairness, which up to now, most would consider to be a human
trait and what some might even consider to be a kind of - <gasp!> -
moral behavior, wouldn't that drive the creationists nuts?
--
John Hachmann, aa #1782
Pierre Laplace, when asked by Napoleon on why he made
no mention of a god in his book on astronomy: "Sire,
I have no need of that hypothesis."
.
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| User: "Therion Ware" |
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| Title: Re: OT: Monkeys show sense of justice |
18 Sep 2003 12:53:31 AM |
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On Wed, 17 Sep 2003 22:42:16 -0700 in alt.atheism, johac (johac
<jhachm@remove.ixpres.com>) said, directing the reply to alt.atheism
In article <nl0imvkvfrc62o5f2bbeikspir3i7rrb7e@4ax.com>,
Craig McDonald <rcd@craigmcdonald.com> wrote:
Interesting behavioural study:-
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/3116678.stm
Monkeys have a sense of justice. They will protest if they see another
monkey get paid more for the same task.
Researchers taught brown capuchin monkeys to swap tokens for food.
Usually they were happy to exchange this "money" for cucumber.
But if they saw another monkey getting a grape - a more-liked food -
they took offence. Some refused to work, others took the food and
refused to eat it.
Scientists say this work suggests that human's sense of justice is
inherited and not a social construct.
<snip>
"We were looking for a very objective reaction and we got one. They
typically refused the task they were set," Sarah Brosnan said.
"The other half of the time they would complete the task but wouldn't
take the reward. That is a highly unusual behaviour.
"Sometimes they ignored the reward, sometimes they took it and threw
it down," she added.
The researchers were not surprised that the monkeys showed a sense of
fairness, but they were taken aback that they would turn down an
otherwise acceptable reward.
"They never showed a reaction against their partner, they never blamed
them," Sarah Brosnan said.
Better than some humans that I know. If these monkeys have evolved a
sense of fairness, which up to now, most would consider to be a human
trait and what some might even consider to be a kind of - <gasp!> -
moral behavior, wouldn't that drive the creationists nuts?
Ah, but these monkeys are clearly only a step away from forming a
union, and becoming card-carrying communists, so clearly they're a
work of Satan!
--
"Do Unto Others As You Would Have Them Do Unto You."
- Attrib: Pauline Reage.
Inexpensive VHS & other video to CD/DVD conversion?
See: <http://www.Video2CD.com>. 35.00 gets your video on DVD.
all posts to this email address are automatically deleted without being read.
** atheist poster child #1 **
.
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| User: "Gregory Gadow" |
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| Title: Re: OT: Monkeys show sense of justice |
18 Sep 2003 09:11:30 AM |
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Therion Ware wrote:
On Wed, 17 Sep 2003 22:42:16 -0700 in alt.atheism, johac (johac
<jhachm@remove.ixpres.com>) said, directing the reply to alt.atheism
In article <nl0imvkvfrc62o5f2bbeikspir3i7rrb7e@4ax.com>,
Craig McDonald <rcd@craigmcdonald.com> wrote:
Interesting behavioural study:-
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/3116678.stm
Monkeys have a sense of justice. They will protest if they see another
monkey get paid more for the same task.
Researchers taught brown capuchin monkeys to swap tokens for food.
Usually they were happy to exchange this "money" for cucumber.
But if they saw another monkey getting a grape - a more-liked food -
they took offence. Some refused to work, others took the food and
refused to eat it.
Scientists say this work suggests that human's sense of justice is
inherited and not a social construct.
<snip>
"We were looking for a very objective reaction and we got one. They
typically refused the task they were set," Sarah Brosnan said.
"The other half of the time they would complete the task but wouldn't
take the reward. That is a highly unusual behaviour.
"Sometimes they ignored the reward, sometimes they took it and threw
it down," she added.
The researchers were not surprised that the monkeys showed a sense of
fairness, but they were taken aback that they would turn down an
otherwise acceptable reward.
"They never showed a reaction against their partner, they never blamed
them," Sarah Brosnan said.
Better than some humans that I know. If these monkeys have evolved a
sense of fairness, which up to now, most would consider to be a human
trait and what some might even consider to be a kind of - <gasp!> -
moral behavior, wouldn't that drive the creationists nuts?
Ah, but these monkeys are clearly only a step away from forming a
union, and becoming card-carrying communists, so clearly they're a
work of Satan!
Thereby proving that social justice, being found in nature, is something that is
abhorrent to "civilized" human society. Just like homosexuality.
--
Gregory Gadow
techbear@serv.net
http://www.serv.net/~techbear
Is your faith so weak and your god so powerless
that, without government endorsement of your
religion, all hell will break loose?
.
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| User: "johac" |
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| Title: Re: OT: Monkeys show sense of justice |
19 Sep 2003 12:23:09 AM |
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In article <3F69BD12.699E2ACE@serv.net>,
Gregory Gadow <techbear@serv.net> wrote:
Therion Ware wrote:
On Wed, 17 Sep 2003 22:42:16 -0700 in alt.atheism, johac (johac
<jhachm@remove.ixpres.com>) said, directing the reply to alt.atheism
In article <nl0imvkvfrc62o5f2bbeikspir3i7rrb7e@4ax.com>,
Craig McDonald <rcd@craigmcdonald.com> wrote:
Interesting behavioural study:-
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/3116678.stm
Monkeys have a sense of justice. They will protest if they see another
monkey get paid more for the same task.
Researchers taught brown capuchin monkeys to swap tokens for food.
Usually they were happy to exchange this "money" for cucumber.
But if they saw another monkey getting a grape - a more-liked food -
they took offence. Some refused to work, others took the food and
refused to eat it.
Scientists say this work suggests that human's sense of justice is
inherited and not a social construct.
<snip>
"We were looking for a very objective reaction and we got one. They
typically refused the task they were set," Sarah Brosnan said.
"The other half of the time they would complete the task but wouldn't
take the reward. That is a highly unusual behaviour.
"Sometimes they ignored the reward, sometimes they took it and threw
it down," she added.
The researchers were not surprised that the monkeys showed a sense of
fairness, but they were taken aback that they would turn down an
otherwise acceptable reward.
"They never showed a reaction against their partner, they never blamed
them," Sarah Brosnan said.
Better than some humans that I know. If these monkeys have evolved a
sense of fairness, which up to now, most would consider to be a human
trait and what some might even consider to be a kind of - <gasp!> -
moral behavior, wouldn't that drive the creationists nuts?
Ah, but these monkeys are clearly only a step away from forming a
union, and becoming card-carrying communists, so clearly they're a
work of Satan!
Thereby proving that social justice, being found in nature, is something that
is
abhorrent to "civilized" human society. Just like homosexuality.
Social justice? How perverted!
If homosexuality is found in nature, I wonder why they call it an
'unnatural' act? Never mind, I think I know the answer.
--
John Hachmann, aa #1782
Pierre Laplace, when asked by Napoleon on why he made
no mention of a god in his book on astronomy: "Sire,
I have no need of that hypothesis."
.
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| User: "Fear gan dia" |
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| Title: Re: OT: Monkeys show sense of justice |
18 Sep 2003 02:51:38 PM |
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Verily verily I say unto you, it is written by Craig McDonald <rcd@craigmcdonald.com>
in <nl0imvkvfrc62o5f2bbeikspir3i7rrb7e@4ax.com>:
# Interesting behavioural study:-
# http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/3116678.stm
#
#
# Monkeys have a sense of justice.
George Bush Jr. being an obvious exception.
--
Fear gan dia ### http://goddamliberal.blogspot.com
Director, EAC Division for Leaving the Toilet Seat up.
-No God for Ireland! he cried. We have had too much
God in Ireland. Away with God!
-James Joyce, _A Portrait of the Artist as a Young Man_
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| User: "Al Klein" |
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| Title: Re: OT: Monkeys show sense of justice |
18 Sep 2003 10:37:34 PM |
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On Thu, 18 Sep 2003 19:51:38 GMT, "Fear gan dia"
<nqnbhbqqxbnh@rbhtqlrdxqll.com> posted in alt.atheism:
Verily verily I say unto you, it is written by Craig McDonald <rcd@craigmcdonald.com>
in <nl0imvkvfrc62o5f2bbeikspir3i7rrb7e@4ax.com>:
# Monkeys have a sense of justice.
George Bush Jr. being an obvious exception.
Some monkeys just aren't as smart as other monkeys.
--
"To assume the existence of an unperceivable being ... does not facilitate understanding
the orderliness we find in the perceivable world."
- Letter to an Iowa student who asked, What is God? July, 1953; Einstein Archive 59-085
(random sig, produced by SigChanger)
rukbat at optonline dot net
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