| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"stoney" |
| Date: |
18 Nov 2003 04:04:57 PM |
| Object: |
OT: Not a Womb In the House |
http://www.msnbc.com/news/991042.asp?0dm=L1DRO&cp1=1
Not a Womb In the House
By Anna Quindlen
How can President Bush understand the issue when he stacks the seats
with people who can never know what it feels like to be pregnant?
NEWSWEEK
Nov. 17 issue — Sometimes the pictures do tell the story. There
was a raft of wire-service photographs of invited guests saluting the
president as he signed a bill banning a late-abortion procedure.
Scarcely a working uterus in sight, not a person who could become
pregnant and be tortured and overwhelmed by the future.
ORRIN, RICK, JERRY, Tommy, John: the functional equivalent of signing a
bill affecting black Americans amid self-congratulatory white guys. Did
no one notice the essential disconnect of having a bunch of gray-haired
men passing judgment on the bodily functions of a nation’s young women?
Or was it just too tough to get female leaders to show up for the
celebration?
I am so tired of abortion. Discussions of it are the most
meretricious in modern public policy. Even as the president was vowing
to sign a bill that would outlaw a procedure that accounts for a handful
of the terminations in America, he was opining that the country was not
yet ready to make abortion illegal. He was using one hand to corral the
right wing and another to wave off the concerns of moderates. How dare
the father of two daughters play politics with the womb?
I am so tired of abortion. Its opponents too often have a hidden
agenda. Some of the men at that bill-signing support not only a ban on
all abortions, but the rolling back of other rights for the women of
America. They are people who have indicated by word and deed that modern
women have forgotten their proper place. They are clergy who have
twisted the word of God to turn it into an instrument of gender bigotry.
And they have clearly taken note of the fact that women who can control
their fertility are more able to control their future.
But those of us who support legal abortion are not immune from
criticism, particularly in the current debate over a procedure of half
delivering a fetus and crushing its skull, a procedure that has to repel
and unnerve even the staunchest believer. Say what you will about the
slippery anti-abortion slope: this is not the place to ask Americans to
make their stand on this issue. We can argue all we want that doctors
should be able to make their own decisions about what procedure to use.
We can argue all we want that this procedure is rare, and performed only
under wrenching circumstances. But by seeming to lump these abortions
with other, earlier ones, we have lost credibility. Because that is
clearly not how reasonable people see this.
Abortion-rights supporters have not kept pace with the
technology. As sophisticated sonograms become more widely used, as it is
possible to see the face of a fetus clearly, it will become ever more
important to be painfully honest about what really happens here.
Something dies when an abortion is performed. It is not yet a baby. It
is not remotely anyone else’s business. But something does die. In the
tension between woman and fetus, the woman has the right to choose. But
she cannot really choose to ignore that there are two important parts to
this equation. Biology tells her so.
By contrast, abortion opponents have never understood the psychology.
They do not understand that there are times when an embryo is an
embedded blessing, and times when it is an incubus, a nightmare, a
curse. They do not understand how deeply felt is the notion that the
right to the processes of your own body is the great inviolate right.
How can they? How can President Bush understand this issue when he
stacks the seats with people who can never know what it feels like to be
pregnant? Say this for President Clinton: when he vetoed this same bill,
it was with five women who had had late abortions at his side, to
testify to their feelings, their reasons and their pain. How many
ordinary women has George W. Bush ever heard discuss this matter? Why
was his wife not by his side when he signed this bill instead of Dennis
Hastert and Cardinal Egan?
It is like so much else in public policy: deciding what to
provide for the poor without speaking to poor people, deciding what to
do for the citizens of other nations without having any idea what they
want themselves. It is paternalistic and insulting. Like those
photographs. How can those men sit and smile and clap their hands when
somewhere a woman with a horribly deformed fetus may have to face a more
difficult and perhaps disfiguring procedure if she cannot bear to wait
until the end of its gestation to watch it die?
I am so tired of abortion, tired of the dishonesty of the
arguments, of the intractability of the conflict, mainly of the
insensibility of those who pass judgment. No matter what is legislated,
adjudicated or pontificated, women will continue to find a way to end
pregnancies that they cannot bear to turn, by the hospitality of their
own bodies, into children. They always have; they always will. Knitting
needles, caustic chemicals, medical residents, unlicensed doctors,
sympathetic nurses, bootleg curettes.
Let those old men try to comfort the parents and the children of
those women after they are dead. Let them offer them their version of
the words of God and see how much good they do. Let them say, “I
understand.” They will never understand.
(c) 2003 Newsweek Inc.
Stoney
"Designated Rascal and Rapscallion
and
SCAMPERMEISTER!"
When in doubt, SCAMPER about!
When things are fair, SCAMPER everywhere!
When things are rough, can't SCAMPER enough!
/end humour alert
alt.atheism military veteran #11
{so much for the 'no atheists in foxholes' rubbish}
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| User: "Beowulf" |
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| Title: Re: OT: Not a Womb In the House |
19 Nov 2003 11:03:12 AM |
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On Tue, 18 Nov 2003 14:04:57 -0800, stoney <stoney@the.net>
ejaculated:
http://www.msnbc.com/news/991042.asp?0dm=L1DRO&cp1=1
Not a Womb In the House
By Anna Quindlen
<Snip>
I am so tired of abortion. Its opponents too often have a hidden
agenda. Some of the men at that bill-signing support not only a ban on
all abortions, but the rolling back of other rights for the women of
America. They are people who have indicated by word and deed that modern
women have forgotten their proper place. They are clergy who have
twisted the word of God to turn it into an instrument of gender bigotry.
I have just one question for Ms Quindlen. Which words of god are
being "twisted"? Is it any of these:
"But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and
the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God"
(1 Cor 11:3)
"Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted
unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as
also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask
their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the
church." (1 Cor 14:34-5)
"Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.
For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of
the church: and he is the saviour of the body. Therefore as the church
is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in
every thing." (Eph 5:22-4)
"Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as it is fit in the
Lord." (Col 3:18)
"I will therefore that men pray every where, lifting up holy hands,
without wrath and doubting. In like manner also, that women adorn
themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not
with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array; But (which
becometh women professing godliness) with good works. Let the woman
learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to
teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For
Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the
woman being deceived was in the transgression. Notwithstanding she
shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity
and holiness with sobriety" (1 Tim 2:8ff)
--
Jesus is my crush.
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| User: "stoney" |
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| Title: Re: OT: Not a Womb In the House |
21 Nov 2003 09:19:55 PM |
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On Wed, 19 Nov 2003 12:03:12 -0500, Beowulf
<beowulf_is_not_here@hotmail.com>, Message ID:
<is7nrvof4e2f4s3jbgebdr194hed8f32e7@4ax.com> wrote in alt.atheism;
On Tue, 18 Nov 2003 14:04:57 -0800, stoney <stoney@the.net>
ejaculated:
http://www.msnbc.com/news/991042.asp?0dm=L1DRO&cp1=1
Not a Womb In the House
By Anna Quindlen
<Snip>
I am so tired of abortion. Its opponents too often have a hidden
agenda. Some of the men at that bill-signing support not only a ban on
all abortions, but the rolling back of other rights for the women of
America. They are people who have indicated by word and deed that modern
women have forgotten their proper place. They are clergy who have
twisted the word of God to turn it into an instrument of gender bigotry.
I have just one question for Ms Quindlen. Which words of god are
being "twisted"? Is it any of these:
"But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and
the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God"
(1 Cor 11:3)
"Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted
unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as
also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask
their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the
church." (1 Cor 14:34-5)
"Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.
For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of
the church: and he is the saviour of the body. Therefore as the church
is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in
every thing." (Eph 5:22-4)
"Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as it is fit in the
Lord." (Col 3:18)
"I will therefore that men pray every where, lifting up holy hands,
without wrath and doubting. In like manner also, that women adorn
themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not
with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array; But (which
becometh women professing godliness) with good works. Let the woman
learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to
teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For
Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the
woman being deceived was in the transgression. Notwithstanding she
shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity
and holiness with sobriety" (1 Tim 2:8ff)
You could send her an email and ask.
Stoney
"Designated Rascal and Rapscallion
and
SCAMPERMEISTER!"
When in doubt, SCAMPER about!
When things are fair, SCAMPER everywhere!
When things are rough, can't SCAMPER enough!
/end humour alert
alt.atheism military veteran #11
{so much for the 'no atheists in foxholes' rubbish}
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| User: "Adam Marczyk" |
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| Title: Re: Not a Womb In the House |
18 Nov 2003 04:35:55 PM |
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stoney <stoney@the.net> wrote in message
news:mv4lrv0a9e72hac9k678vpareihj43jdrq@4ax.com...
http://www.msnbc.com/news/991042.asp?0dm=L1DRO&cp1=1
Not a Womb In the House
By Anna Quindlen
[...]
I am so tired of abortion. Its opponents too often have a hidden
agenda. Some of the men at that bill-signing support not only a ban on
all abortions, but the rolling back of other rights for the women of
America. They are people who have indicated by word and deed that modern
women have forgotten their proper place. They are clergy who have
twisted
"Twisted"?
the word of God to turn it into
"Turn it into"?
an instrument of gender bigotry.
I wonder if Quindlen has ever read her own Bible. Someone should tell her
what it says about women speaking in church, teaching men, or giving birth
to female children.
--
"We have loved the stars too fondly | a.a. #2001
to be fearful of the night." | http://www.ebonmusings.org
--Tombstone epitaph of | e-mail: ebonmuse!hotmail.com
two amateur astronomers, | ICQ: 8777843
quoted in Carl Sagan's _Cosmos_ | PGP Key ID: 0x5C66F737
----------------------------------------------------------------------
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| User: "duke" |
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| Title: Re: Not a Womb In the House |
19 Nov 2003 04:57:20 AM |
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On Tue, 18 Nov 2003 22:35:55 GMT, "Adam Marczyk"
<ebonmuse@deletethis.hotmail.com> wrote:
I wonder if Quindlen has ever read her own Bible. Someone should tell her
what it says about women speaking in church, teaching men, or giving birth
to female children.
Which are words and attitudes specifically of men towards females still highly
reflected in the Middle East areas, and not the word of God, which is the true
message of the Bible.
How well you ignore the fact that the bible is the word of God, BUT written in
the hand of man. Not all words in the bible are the word of God.
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| User: "Wolf333" |
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| Title: TQOTM Nomination - was Re: Not a Womb In the House |
19 Nov 2003 07:47:52 PM |
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"duke" <duckgumbo32@cox.net> wrote in message
news:3uimrv4fffru4vl3d2f172oqqlov6c6vg6@4ax.com...
On Tue, 18 Nov 2003 22:35:55 GMT, "Adam Marczyk"
<ebonmuse@deletethis.hotmail.com> wrote:
I wonder if Quindlen has ever read her own Bible. Someone should tell her
what it says about women speaking in church, teaching men, or giving
birth
to female children.
Which are words and attitudes specifically of men towards females still
highly
reflected in the Middle East areas, and not the word of God, which is the
true
message of the Bible.
Begin nominated part...
How well you ignore the fact that the bible is the word of God, BUT
written in
the hand of man. Not all words in the bible are the word of God.
END
--
__________
"blood-red canal birds particular traffic climb" - anonymous, oddly Zen-like
spammer
Michael Wolfe
aa #1912
__________
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| User: "Tink" |
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| Title: Re: TQOTM Nomination - was Re: Not a Womb In the House |
20 Nov 2003 09:05:30 AM |
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Wolf333 wrote:
"duke" <duckgumbo32@cox.net> wrote in message
news:3uimrv4fffru4vl3d2f172oqqlov6c6vg6@4ax.com...
On Tue, 18 Nov 2003 22:35:55 GMT, "Adam Marczyk"
<ebonmuse@deletethis.hotmail.com> wrote:
I wonder if Quindlen has ever read her own Bible. Someone should tell her
what it says about women speaking in church, teaching men, or giving
birth
to female children.
Which are words and attitudes specifically of men towards females still
highly
reflected in the Middle East areas, and not the word of God, which is the
true
message of the Bible.
Begin nominated part...
How well you ignore the fact that the bible is the word of God, BUT
written in
the hand of man. Not all words in the bible are the word of God.
END
Seconded, In the category of hypocritical exposition.
--
It seems odd that those who scoff at sun worshippers are apt to worship
a vacuum.
The World Famous Tink. (I never heard of you either!!)
AA #2069 ASA#33 POPS# 8808
EAC Chairman, Division of Skydiving and Sushi consumption.
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| User: "*nemo*" |
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| Title: Re: TQOTM Nomination - was Re: Not a Womb In the House |
22 Nov 2003 05:34:41 AM |
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In article <n7KdnYRA2fGgRSGi4p2dnA@comcast.com>,
Tink <kjgrish@comcast.net> wrote:
Wolf333 wrote:
"duke" <duckgumbo32@cox.net> wrote in message
news:3uimrv4fffru4vl3d2f172oqqlov6c6vg6@4ax.com...
On Tue, 18 Nov 2003 22:35:55 GMT, "Adam Marczyk"
<ebonmuse@deletethis.hotmail.com> wrote:
I wonder if Quindlen has ever read her own Bible. Someone should tell her
what it says about women speaking in church, teaching men, or giving
birth
to female children.
Which are words and attitudes specifically of men towards females still
highly
reflected in the Middle East areas, and not the word of God, which is the
true
message of the Bible.
Begin nominated part...
How well you ignore the fact that the bible is the word of God, BUT
written in
the hand of man. Not all words in the bible are the word of God.
END
Seconded, In the category of hypocritical exposition.
Recorded.
--
Nemo - EAC Commissioner for Bible Belt Underwater Operations.
Atheist #1331 (the Palindrome of doom!)
BAAWA Knight! - One of those warm Southern Knights, y'all!
Charter member, SMASH!!
http://home.earthlink.net/~jehdjh/Relpg.html
Draco Dormiens Nunquam Titillandus
Quotemeister since March 2002
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| User: "SDG&E" |
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| Title: Re: Not a Womb In the House |
19 Nov 2003 12:00:12 PM |
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"duke" <duckgumbo32@cox.net> wrote in message
news:3uimrv4fffru4vl3d2f172oqqlov6c6vg6@4ax.com...
On Tue, 18 Nov 2003 22:35:55 GMT, "Adam Marczyk"
<ebonmuse@deletethis.hotmail.com> wrote:
I wonder if Quindlen has ever read her own Bible. Someone should tell her
what it says about women speaking in church, teaching men, or giving
birth
to female children.
Which are words and attitudes specifically of men towards females still
highly
reflected in the Middle East areas, and not the word of God, which is the
true
message of the Bible.
How well you ignore the fact that the bible is the word of God, BUT
written in
the hand of man. Not all words in the bible are the word of God.
Why is being "saved" all or nothing, but the manual you use isn't?
Don't you see how that in what you wrote re-enforces how nonsensical it
all is?
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| User: "Wolf333" |
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| Title: Re: Not a Womb In the House |
19 Nov 2003 07:52:54 PM |
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"duke" <duckgumbo32@cox.net> wrote in message
news:3uimrv4fffru4vl3d2f172oqqlov6c6vg6@4ax.com...
On Tue, 18 Nov 2003 22:35:55 GMT, "Adam Marczyk"
<ebonmuse@deletethis.hotmail.com> wrote:
I wonder if Quindlen has ever read her own Bible. Someone should tell her
what it says about women speaking in church, teaching men, or giving
birth
to female children.
Which are words and attitudes specifically of men towards females still
highly
reflected in the Middle East areas, and not the word of God, which is the
true
message of the Bible.
How well you ignore the fact that the bible is the word of God, BUT
written in
the hand of man. Not all words in the bible are the word of God.
So, in the beginning, god created "begat," which is one of the most annoying
words ever. The rest was made up.
--
__________
"blood-red canal birds particular traffic climb" - anonymous, oddly Zen-like
spammer
Michael Wolfe
aa #1912
__________
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| User: "Mekkala" |
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| Title: Re: Not a Womb In the House |
19 Nov 2003 12:40:52 PM |
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On 19 Nov 2003, duke <duckgumbo32@cox.net> screwed up his face, groaned,
pushed hard, and farted out the following message in
news:3uimrv4fffru4vl3d2f172oqqlov6c6vg6@4ax.com:
On Tue, 18 Nov 2003 22:35:55 GMT, "Adam Marczyk"
<ebonmuse@deletethis.hotmail.com> wrote:
I wonder if Quindlen has ever read her own Bible. Someone should tell
her what it says about women speaking in church, teaching men, or
giving birth to female children.
Which are words and attitudes specifically of men towards females
still highly reflected in the Middle East areas, and not the word of
God, which is the true message of the Bible.
How well you ignore the fact that the bible is the word of God, BUT
written in the hand of man. Not all words in the bible are the word
of God.
So, I take it, you have inside information on which parts are the Word
of God and which aren't? You should compile a comprehensive reference,
Duke. Could be very useful to know which words in the Bible truly came
from the mouth of God and which ones didn't. You know, it's so
conforting that I know someone (you, duke, you) with a direct hotline to
God and access to the most up-to-date information about just what the
Big Guy did and didn't say.
--
Mekkala, Atheist #2148
"When did I realize I was God? Well, I was praying and I suddenly
realized I was talking to myself!"
--Peter O'Toole.
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| User: "Beowulf" |
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| Title: Re: Re: Not a Womb In the House |
19 Nov 2003 11:05:25 AM |
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On Wed, 19 Nov 2003 04:57:20 -0600, duke <duckgumbo32@cox.net>
ejaculated:
On Tue, 18 Nov 2003 22:35:55 GMT, "Adam Marczyk"
<ebonmuse@deletethis.hotmail.com> wrote:
I wonder if Quindlen has ever read her own Bible. Someone should tell her
what it says about women speaking in church, teaching men, or giving birth
to female children.
Which are words and attitudes specifically of men towards females still highly
reflected in the Middle East areas, and not the word of God, which is the true
message of the Bible.
How well you ignore the fact that the bible is the word of God, BUT written in
the hand of man. Not all words in the bible are the word of God.
And how is it that Western cultures have managed to grant women a
modicum of equality and liberty? Was it by the application of
explicit teachings in God's Holy word or was it the consequence of the
ideas espoused by secular libertarians after the Enlightenment?
--
Jesus is my crush.
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| User: "Adam Marczyk" |
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| Title: Re: Not a Womb In the House |
19 Nov 2003 08:52:58 AM |
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duke <duckgumbo32@cox.net> wrote in message
news:3uimrv4fffru4vl3d2f172oqqlov6c6vg6@4ax.com...
On Tue, 18 Nov 2003 22:35:55 GMT, "Adam Marczyk"
<ebonmuse@deletethis.hotmail.com> wrote:
I wonder if Quindlen has ever read her own Bible. Someone should tell
her what it says about women speaking in church, teaching men, or
giving birth to female children.
Which are words and attitudes specifically of men towards females still
highly reflected in the Middle East areas, and not the word of God,
which is the true message of the Bible.
How well you ignore the fact that the bible is the word of God, BUT
written in the hand of man. Not all words in the bible are the word of
God.
Well, do tell us how you tell the difference.
--
"I'm materialist | a.a. #2001
Call me a humanist | http://www.ebonmusings.org
I guess I'm full of doubt | e-mail: ebonmuse!hotmail.com
So I'll gladly have it out with you..." | ICQ: 8777843
--Bad Religion, "Materialist" | PGP Key ID: 0x5C66F737
----------------------------------------------------------------------
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| User: "Wolf333" |
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| Title: Re: Not a Womb In the House |
19 Nov 2003 07:59:52 PM |
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"Adam Marczyk" <ebonmuse@deletethis.hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:etLub.19$F91.17@news02.roc.ny...
duke <duckgumbo32@cox.net> wrote in message
news:3uimrv4fffru4vl3d2f172oqqlov6c6vg6@4ax.com...
On Tue, 18 Nov 2003 22:35:55 GMT, "Adam Marczyk"
<ebonmuse@deletethis.hotmail.com> wrote:
I wonder if Quindlen has ever read her own Bible. Someone should tell
her what it says about women speaking in church, teaching men, or
giving birth to female children.
Which are words and attitudes specifically of men towards females still
highly reflected in the Middle East areas, and not the word of God,
which is the true message of the Bible.
How well you ignore the fact that the bible is the word of God, BUT
written in the hand of man. Not all words in the bible are the word of
God.
Well, do tell us how you tell the difference.
duke's bible has a little "g" in a circle after god's words. Strangely, my
atheistic, scientifically developed keyboard can't duplicate it.
--
__________
"blood-red canal birds particular traffic climb" - anonymous, oddly Zen-like
spammer
Michael Wolfe
aa #1912
__________
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| User: "JessHC" |
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| Title: Re: Not a Womb In the House |
19 Nov 2003 08:41:34 AM |
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duke <duckgumbo32@cox.net> wrote in message news:<3uimrv4fffru4vl3d2f172oqqlov6c6vg6@4ax.com>...
On Tue, 18 Nov 2003 22:35:55 GMT, "Adam Marczyk"
<ebonmuse@deletethis.hotmail.com> wrote:
I wonder if Quindlen has ever read her own Bible. Someone should tell her
what it says about women speaking in church, teaching men, or giving birth
to female children.
Which are words and attitudes specifically of men towards females still highly
reflected in the Middle East areas, and not the word of God, which is the true
message of the Bible.
How well you ignore the fact that the bible is the word of God, BUT written in
the hand of man. Not all words in the bible are the word of God.
And you have the secret decoder ring.
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| User: "jwk" |
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| Title: Re: Not a Womb In the House |
19 Nov 2003 10:09:44 AM |
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duke <duckgumbo32@cox.net> wrote in message news:<3uimrv4fffru4vl3d2f172oqqlov6c6vg6@4ax.com>...
On Tue, 18 Nov 2003 22:35:55 GMT, "Adam Marczyk"
<ebonmuse@deletethis.hotmail.com> wrote:
I wonder if Quindlen has ever read her own Bible. Someone should tell her
what it says about women speaking in church, teaching men, or giving birth
to female children.
Which are words and attitudes specifically of men towards females still highly
reflected in the Middle East areas, and not the word of God, which is the true
message of the Bible.
How well you ignore the fact that the bible is the word of God, BUT written in
the hand of man. Not all words in the bible are the word of God.
Boy *that's convenient! If it's barbaric, men did it. If it's nice,
it's the word of Gawd. Do you christers *really think we are stupid
enough to fall for that? (I guess you do, since you were stupid
enough to fall for it yourself.)
jwk
BAAWA
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