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Topic: Religions > Atheism
User: "G-Ride"
Date: 30 Aug 2006 09:55:28 PM
Object: OT: Olbermann on Rumsfeld
More like this please:
http://www.crooksandliars.com/2006/08/30/keith-olbermann-delivers-one-hell-of-a-commentary-on-rumsfeld/
***
The man who sees absolutes, where all other men see nuances and shades of
meaning, is either a prophet, or a quack.
Donald H. Rumsfeld is not a prophet.
Mr. Rumsfeld's remarkable speech to the American Legion yesterday demands
the deep analysis-and the sober contemplation-of every American.
For it did not merely serve to impugn the morality or intelligence --
indeed, the loyalty -- of the majority of Americans who oppose the transient
occupants of the highest offices in the land. Worse, still, it credits those
same transient occupants -- our employees -- with a total omniscience; a
total omniscience which neither common sense, nor this administration's
track record at home or abroad, suggests they deserve.
Dissent and disagreement with government is the life's blood of human
freedom; and not merely because it is the first roadblock against the kind
of tyranny the men Mr. Rumsfeld likes to think of as "his" troops still
fight, this very evening, in Iraq.
It is also essential. Because just every once in awhile it is right and the
power to which it speaks, is wrong.
In a small irony, however, Mr. Rumsfeld's speechwriter was adroit in
invoking the memory of the appeasement of the Nazis. For in their time,
there was another government faced with true peril-with a growing
evil-powerful and remorseless.
That government, like Mr. Rumsfeld's, had a monopoly on all the facts. It,
too, had the "secret information." It alone had the true picture of the
threat. It too dismissed and insulted its critics in terms like Mr. Rumsfeld
's -- questioning their intellect and their morality.
That government was England's, in the 1930's.
It knew Hitler posed no true threat to Europe, let alone England.
It knew Germany was not re-arming, in violation of all treaties and accords.
It knew that the hard evidence it received, which contradicted its own
policies, its own conclusions - its own omniscience -- needed to be
dismissed.
The English government of Neville Chamberlain already knew the truth.
Most relevant of all - it "knew" that its staunchest critics needed to be
marginalized and isolated. In fact, it portrayed the foremost of them as a
blood-thirsty war-monger who was, if not truly senile, at best morally or
intellectually confused.
That critic's name was Winston Churchill.
Sadly, we have no Winston Churchills evident among us this evening. We have
only Donald Rumsfelds, demonizing disagreement, the way Neville Chamberlain
demonized Winston Churchill.
History - and 163 million pounds of Luftwaffe bombs over England - have
taught us that all Mr. Chamberlain had was his certainty - and his own
confusion. A confusion that suggested that the office can not only make the
man, but that the office can also make the facts.
Thus, did Mr. Rumsfeld make an apt historical analogy.
Excepting the fact, that he has the battery plugged in backwards.
His government, absolute -- and exclusive -- in its knowledge, is not the
modern version of the one which stood up to the Nazis.
It is the modern version of the government of Neville Chamberlain.
But back to today's Omniscient ones.
That, about which Mr. Rumsfeld is confused is simply this: This is a
Democracy. Still. Sometimes just barely.
And, as such, all voices count -- not just his.
Had he or his president perhaps proven any of their prior claims of
omniscience - about Osama Bin Laden's plans five years ago, about Saddam
Hussein's weapons four years ago, about Hurricane Katrina's impact one year
ago - we all might be able to swallow hard, and accept their "omniscience"
as a bearable, even useful recipe, of fact, plus ego.
But, to date, this government has proved little besides its own arrogance,
and its own hubris.
Mr. Rumsfeld is also personally confused, morally or intellectually, about
his own standing in this matter. From Iraq to Katrina, to the entire "Fog of
Fear" which continues to envelop this nation, he, Mr. Bush, Mr. Cheney, and
their cronies have - inadvertently or intentionally - profited and
benefited, both personally, and politically.
And yet he can stand up, in public, and question the morality and the
intellect of those of us who dare ask just for the receipt for the Emporer's
New Clothes?
In what country was Mr. Rumsfeld raised? As a child, of whose heroism did he
read? On what side of the battle for freedom did he dream one day to fight?
With what country has he confused the United States of America?
The confusion we -- as its citizens- must now address, is stark and
forbidding.
But variations of it have faced our forefathers, when men like Nixon and
McCarthy and Curtis LeMay have darkened our skies and obscured our flag.
Note -- with hope in your heart - that those earlier Americans always found
their way to the light, and we can, too.
The confusion is about whether this Secretary of Defense, and this
administration, are in fact now accomplishing what they claim the terrorists
seek: The destruction of our freedoms, the very ones for which the same
veterans Mr. Rumsfeld addressed yesterday in Salt Lake City, so valiantly
fought.
And about Mr. Rumsfeld's other main assertion, that this country faces a
"new type of fascism."
As he was correct to remind us how a government that knew everything could
get everything wrong, so too was he right when he said that -- though
probably not in the way he thought he meant it.
This country faces a new type of fascism - indeed.
Although I presumptuously use his sign-off each night, in feeble tribute, I
have utterly no claim to the words of the exemplary journalist Edward R.
Murrow.
But never in the trial of a thousand years of writing could I come close to
matching how he phrased a warning to an earlier generation of us, at a time
when other politicians thought they (and they alone) knew everything, and
branded those who disagreed: "confused" or "immoral."
Thus, forgive me, for reading Murrow, in full:
"We must not confuse dissent with disloyalty," he said, in 1954. "We must
remember always that accusation is not proof, and that conviction depends
upon evidence and due process of law.
"We will not walk in fear, one of another. We will not be driven by fear
into an age of unreason, if we dig deep in our history and our doctrine, and
remember that we are not descended from fearful men, not from men who feared
to write, to speak, to associate, and to defend causes that were for the
moment unpopular."
And so good night, and good luck.
***
--
Aloha, G-Ride
The force that's forcing you to feel like busting up a Starbucks.
.

User: "Michelle Malkin"

Title: Re: Olbermann on Rumsfeld 30 Aug 2006 02:31:53 AM
"G-Ride" <gride42nospam@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:4ln1hbF2nir6U1@individual.net...

More like this please:

http://www.crooksandliars.com/2006/08/30/keith-olbermann-delivers-one-hell-of-a-commentary-on-rumsfeld/


***
The man who sees absolutes, where all other men see nuances and shades of
meaning, is either a prophet, or a quack.

Donald H. Rumsfeld is not a prophet.

Mr. Rumsfeld's remarkable speech to the American Legion yesterday demands
the deep analysis-and the sober contemplation-of every American.

For it did not merely serve to impugn the morality or intelligence --
indeed, the loyalty -- of the majority of Americans who oppose the
transient
occupants of the highest offices in the land. Worse, still, it credits
those
same transient occupants -- our employees -- with a total omniscience; a
total omniscience which neither common sense, nor this administration's
track record at home or abroad, suggests they deserve.

Dissent and disagreement with government is the life's blood of human
freedom; and not merely because it is the first roadblock against the kind
of tyranny the men Mr. Rumsfeld likes to think of as "his" troops still
fight, this very evening, in Iraq.

It is also essential. Because just every once in awhile it is right and
the
power to which it speaks, is wrong.

In a small irony, however, Mr. Rumsfeld's speechwriter was adroit in
invoking the memory of the appeasement of the Nazis. For in their time,
there was another government faced with true peril-with a growing
evil-powerful and remorseless.

That government, like Mr. Rumsfeld's, had a monopoly on all the facts. It,
too, had the "secret information." It alone had the true picture of the
threat. It too dismissed and insulted its critics in terms like Mr.
Rumsfeld
's -- questioning their intellect and their morality.

That government was England's, in the 1930's.

It knew Hitler posed no true threat to Europe, let alone England.

It knew Germany was not re-arming, in violation of all treaties and
accords.

It knew that the hard evidence it received, which contradicted its own
policies, its own conclusions - its own omniscience -- needed to be
dismissed.

The English government of Neville Chamberlain already knew the truth.

Most relevant of all - it "knew" that its staunchest critics needed to be
marginalized and isolated. In fact, it portrayed the foremost of them as a
blood-thirsty war-monger who was, if not truly senile, at best morally or
intellectually confused.

That critic's name was Winston Churchill.

Sadly, we have no Winston Churchills evident among us this evening. We
have
only Donald Rumsfelds, demonizing disagreement, the way Neville
Chamberlain
demonized Winston Churchill.

History - and 163 million pounds of Luftwaffe bombs over England - have
taught us that all Mr. Chamberlain had was his certainty - and his own
confusion. A confusion that suggested that the office can not only make
the
man, but that the office can also make the facts.

Thus, did Mr. Rumsfeld make an apt historical analogy.

Excepting the fact, that he has the battery plugged in backwards.

His government, absolute -- and exclusive -- in its knowledge, is not the
modern version of the one which stood up to the Nazis.

It is the modern version of the government of Neville Chamberlain.

But back to today's Omniscient ones.

That, about which Mr. Rumsfeld is confused is simply this: This is a
Democracy. Still. Sometimes just barely.

And, as such, all voices count -- not just his.

Had he or his president perhaps proven any of their prior claims of
omniscience - about Osama Bin Laden's plans five years ago, about Saddam
Hussein's weapons four years ago, about Hurricane Katrina's impact one
year
ago - we all might be able to swallow hard, and accept their "omniscience"
as a bearable, even useful recipe, of fact, plus ego.

But, to date, this government has proved little besides its own arrogance,
and its own hubris.

Mr. Rumsfeld is also personally confused, morally or intellectually, about
his own standing in this matter. From Iraq to Katrina, to the entire "Fog
of
Fear" which continues to envelop this nation, he, Mr. Bush, Mr. Cheney,
and
their cronies have - inadvertently or intentionally - profited and
benefited, both personally, and politically.

And yet he can stand up, in public, and question the morality and the
intellect of those of us who dare ask just for the receipt for the
Emporer's
New Clothes?

In what country was Mr. Rumsfeld raised? As a child, of whose heroism did
he
read? On what side of the battle for freedom did he dream one day to
fight?
With what country has he confused the United States of America?

The confusion we -- as its citizens- must now address, is stark and
forbidding.

But variations of it have faced our forefathers, when men like Nixon and
McCarthy and Curtis LeMay have darkened our skies and obscured our flag.
Note -- with hope in your heart - that those earlier Americans always
found
their way to the light, and we can, too.

The confusion is about whether this Secretary of Defense, and this
administration, are in fact now accomplishing what they claim the
terrorists
seek: The destruction of our freedoms, the very ones for which the same
veterans Mr. Rumsfeld addressed yesterday in Salt Lake City, so valiantly
fought.

And about Mr. Rumsfeld's other main assertion, that this country faces a
"new type of fascism."

As he was correct to remind us how a government that knew everything could
get everything wrong, so too was he right when he said that -- though
probably not in the way he thought he meant it.

This country faces a new type of fascism - indeed.

Although I presumptuously use his sign-off each night, in feeble tribute,
I
have utterly no claim to the words of the exemplary journalist Edward R.
Murrow.

But never in the trial of a thousand years of writing could I come close
to
matching how he phrased a warning to an earlier generation of us, at a
time
when other politicians thought they (and they alone) knew everything, and
branded those who disagreed: "confused" or "immoral."

Thus, forgive me, for reading Murrow, in full:

"We must not confuse dissent with disloyalty," he said, in 1954. "We must
remember always that accusation is not proof, and that conviction depends
upon evidence and due process of law.

"We will not walk in fear, one of another. We will not be driven by fear
into an age of unreason, if we dig deep in our history and our doctrine,
and
remember that we are not descended from fearful men, not from men who
feared
to write, to speak, to associate, and to defend causes that were for the
moment unpopular."

And so good night, and good luck.
***

--
Aloha, G-Ride

The force that's forcing you to feel like busting up a Starbucks.


Darn! I was hoping to post this. Olberman was marvelous,
and not for the first time. He is a very brave man and has
my deep admiration.
--
^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^
Michelle Malkin (Mickey) aa list#1
BAAWA Knight & Bible Thumper Thumper
^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^ ^^
.
User: "Mark K. Bilbo"

Title: Re: Olbermann on Rumsfeld 31 Aug 2006 07:29:54 PM
On Wed, 30 Aug 2006 03:31:53 -0400, Michelle Malkin wrote:

Darn! I was hoping to post this. Olberman was marvelous,
and not for the first time. He is a very brave man and has
my deep admiration.

I'm behind on watching Countdown (I Tivo them but, the move, the house,
the usual). I just now saw his commentary.
Wow.
I didn't think there were journalists like that anymore. He did Murrow
proud last night.
By the way, the reich wing will be shrieking. I've already sent emails off
to MSNBC in praise of Olbermann's courage to, as they put it, "speak truth
to power." The email addys are:
viewerservices@msnbc.com
letters@msnbc.com
countdown@msnbc.com
KOlbermann@msnbc.com
dabrams@msnbc.com
If anybody wants to comment...
--
Mark K. Bilbo
--------------------------------------------------
"As hip as it is for outsiders to blame New Orleans
for everything bad that happened during and after
Hurricane Katrina, the truth is that the people
who lived here were much more prepared for a big
storm than the federal government that promised
us flood protection." [Jarvis DeBerry]
http://makeashorterlink.com/?V180525DC
"Everything New Orleans"
http://www.nola.com
.
User: "stoney"

Title: Re: Olbermann on Rumsfeld 01 Sep 2006 10:14:12 PM
On Fri, 01 Sep 2006 00:29:54 -0000, "Mark K. Bilbo" <gmail@com.mkbilbo>
wrote in alt.atheism

On Wed, 30 Aug 2006 03:31:53 -0400, Michelle Malkin wrote:

Darn! I was hoping to post this. Olberman was marvelous,
and not for the first time. He is a very brave man and has
my deep admiration.


I'm behind on watching Countdown (I Tivo them but, the move, the house,
the usual). I just now saw his commentary.

Wow.

I didn't think there were journalists like that anymore. He did Murrow
proud last night.

By the way, the reich wing will be shrieking. I've already sent emails off
to MSNBC in praise of Olbermann's courage to, as they put it, "speak truth
to power." The email addys are:

viewerservices@msnbc.com
letters@msnbc.com
countdown@msnbc.com
KOlbermann@msnbc.com
dabrams@msnbc.com

If anybody wants to comment...

Done.
--
Fundies and trolls are cordially invited to
shove a wooden cross up their arses and rotate
at a high rate of speed. I trust you'll
be 'blessed' with a plethora of splinters.
.


User: "Mark K. Bilbo"

Title: Re: Olbermann on Rumsfeld 31 Aug 2006 04:59:24 PM
On Wed, 30 Aug 2006 03:31:53 -0400, Michelle Malkin wrote:

Darn! I was hoping to post this. Olberman was marvelous,
and not for the first time. He is a very brave man and has
my deep admiration.

I'm getting to really like Olbermann.
Especially when he goes after the Big Giant Head. <G>
--
Mark K. Bilbo
--------------------------------------------------
"As hip as it is for outsiders to blame New Orleans
for everything bad that happened during and after
Hurricane Katrina, the truth is that the people
who lived here were much more prepared for a big
storm than the federal government that promised
us flood protection." [Jarvis DeBerry]
http://makeashorterlink.com/?V180525DC
"Everything New Orleans"
http://www.nola.com
.
User: "Fred Stone"

Title: Re: Olbermann on Rumsfeld 31 Aug 2006 05:23:09 PM
"Mark K. Bilbo" <gmail@com.mkbilbo> wrote in news:12femtset86k825
@news.supernews.com:

On Wed, 30 Aug 2006 03:31:53 -0400, Michelle Malkin wrote:

Darn! I was hoping to post this. Olberman was marvelous,
and not for the first time. He is a very brave man and has
my deep admiration.


I'm getting to really like Olbermann.

Especially when he goes after the Big Giant Head. <G>

Until you compare Olbermann's diatribe to what Rumsfeld actually said, then
it gets a little more shaky. But hey, he's real good at the liberal
strawmen, which should appeal to all the straw pushers around here just
fine.
--
Fred Stone
aa# 1369
"It is staggering that anyone could be so self-infatuated as to single out
their own particular policy preferences as "anti-war." Anyone who is not a
sadist or an idiot is anti-war. The only serious issue is how best to
limit, deter or conclude war. But responsibility for confronting this issue
is evaded by those preoccupied with the moral preening of being "anti-
war.""
--
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
.

User: "johac"

Title: Re: Olbermann on Rumsfeld 02 Sep 2006 01:59:06 AM
In article <12femtset86k825@news.supernews.com>,
"Mark K. Bilbo" <gmail@com.mkbilbo> wrote:

On Wed, 30 Aug 2006 03:31:53 -0400, Michelle Malkin wrote:

Darn! I was hoping to post this. Olberman was marvelous,
and not for the first time. He is a very brave man and has
my deep admiration.


I'm getting to really like Olbermann.

Especially when he goes after the Big Giant Head. <G>

I'm starting to watch him more myself. He is good.
--
John Hachmann aa #1782
"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities"
-Voltaire
Contact - Throw a .net over the .com
.
User: "Mark K. Bilbo"

Title: Re: Olbermann on Rumsfeld 02 Sep 2006 06:29:16 AM
On Fri, 01 Sep 2006 23:59:06 -0700, johac wrote:

In article <12femtset86k825@news.supernews.com>,
"Mark K. Bilbo" <gmail@com.mkbilbo> wrote:

On Wed, 30 Aug 2006 03:31:53 -0400, Michelle Malkin wrote:

Darn! I was hoping to post this. Olberman was marvelous,
and not for the first time. He is a very brave man and has
my deep admiration.


I'm getting to really like Olbermann.

Especially when he goes after the Big Giant Head. <G>


I'm starting to watch him more myself. He is good.

He's been getting feistier as he's gone along. I like it. Apparently, he
didn't get the memo that "journalism" today amounts to "what's your
favorite color?" followed by a titter...
--
Mark K. Bilbo
--------------------------------------------------
"As hip as it is for outsiders to blame New Orleans
for everything bad that happened during and after
Hurricane Katrina, the truth is that the people
who lived here were much more prepared for a big
storm than the federal government that promised
us flood protection." [Jarvis DeBerry]
http://makeashorterlink.com/?V180525DC
"Everything New Orleans"
http://www.nola.com
.
User: "johac"

Title: Re: Olbermann on Rumsfeld 02 Sep 2006 11:44:34 PM
In article <12fiqocqv6m3417@news.supernews.com>,
"Mark K. Bilbo" <gmail@com.mkbilbo> wrote:

On Fri, 01 Sep 2006 23:59:06 -0700, johac wrote:

In article <12femtset86k825@news.supernews.com>,
"Mark K. Bilbo" <gmail@com.mkbilbo> wrote:

On Wed, 30 Aug 2006 03:31:53 -0400, Michelle Malkin wrote:

Darn! I was hoping to post this. Olberman was marvelous,
and not for the first time. He is a very brave man and has
my deep admiration.


I'm getting to really like Olbermann.

Especially when he goes after the Big Giant Head. <G>


I'm starting to watch him more myself. He is good.


He's been getting feistier as he's gone along. I like it. Apparently, he
didn't get the memo that "journalism" today amounts to "what's your
favorite color?" followed by a titter...

Yeah. I wonder how long he's going to last? Can't have journalists who
are smart and independent. It's against their union rules.
--
John Hachmann aa #1782
"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities"
-Voltaire
Contact - Throw a .net over the .com
.





User: "Kevin Anthoney"

Title: Re: OT: Olbermann on Rumsfeld 31 Aug 2006 11:48:31 AM
G-Ride wrote:

More like this please:


http://www.crooksandliars.com/2006/08/30/keith-olbermann-delivers-one-hell-of-a-commentary-on-rumsfeld/



Don't forget to let MSNBC know.
http://dailykos.com/storyonly/2006/8/31/82620/4825
--
Kevin Anthoney
kanthoney[a]dsl.pipex.com
.
User: "Doc Smartass"

Title: Re: OT: Olbermann on Rumsfeld 31 Aug 2006 07:22:12 PM
Kevin Anthoney <kevin_anthoney@hotmail.com> wrote in
news:t9GdnY1lVvh8j2rZnZ2dnUVZ8s-dnZ2d@pipex.net:

G-Ride wrote:

More like this please:


http://www.crooksandliars.com/2006/08/30/keith-olbermann-delivers-one-h
ell-of-a-commentary-on-rumsfeld/




Don't forget to let MSNBC know.

http://dailykos.com/storyonly/2006/8/31/82620/4825

Done.
--
Doc Smartass
All morality is relative--especially the absolute ones.
.


User: "stoney"

Title: Re: OT: Olbermann on Rumsfeld 01 Sep 2006 09:58:01 PM
On Wed, 30 Aug 2006 16:55:28 -1000, "G-Ride" <gride42nospam@yahoo.com>
wrote in alt.atheism

More like this please:

http://www.crooksandliars.com/2006/08/30/keith-olbermann-delivers-one-hell-of-a-commentary-on-rumsfeld/


***
The man who sees absolutes, where all other men see nuances and shades of
meaning, is either a prophet, or a quack.

Donald H. Rumsfeld is not a prophet.

[]
Bang on! However, I'm curious as to why Curtis LeMay was ranked with
Nixon and McCarthy?
--
Fundies and trolls are cordially invited to
shove a wooden cross up their arses and rotate
at a high rate of speed. I trust you'll
be 'blessed' with a plethora of splinters.
.
User: "The Chief Instigator"

Title: Re: OT: Olbermann on Rumsfeld 01 Sep 2006 10:13:43 PM
stoney <stoney@the.net> writes:

On Wed, 30 Aug 2006 16:55:28 -1000, "G-Ride" <gride42nospam@yahoo.com>
wrote in alt.atheism

More like this please:
http://www.crooksandliars.com/2006/08/30/keith-olbermann-delivers-one-hell-of-a-commentary-on-rumsfeld/
***
The man who sees absolutes, where all other men see nuances and shades of
meaning, is either a prophet, or a quack.
Donald H. Rumsfeld is not a prophet.

[]
Bang on! However, I'm curious as to why Curtis LeMay was ranked with
Nixon and McCarthy?

Aside from his opinions of use of nukes in Vietnam, I'd imagine his running as
Wallace's VP in '68 had something to do with it...
--
Patrick "The Chief Instigator" Humphrey (patrick@io.com) Houston, Texas
chiefinstigator.us.tt/aeros.php (TCI's 2006-07 Houston Aeros)
LAST GAME: Milwaukee 4, Houston 2 (May 9)
NEXT GAME: Saturday, October 7 vs. Grand Rapids, 7:35
.
User: "stoney"

Title: Re: OT: Olbermann on Rumsfeld 03 Sep 2006 12:29:04 PM
On 01 Sep 2006 22:13:43 -0500, The Chief Instigator <patrick@io.com>
wrote in alt.atheism

stoney <stoney@the.net> writes:

On Wed, 30 Aug 2006 16:55:28 -1000, "G-Ride" <gride42nospam@yahoo.com>
wrote in alt.atheism


More like this please:


http://www.crooksandliars.com/2006/08/30/keith-olbermann-delivers-one-hell-of-a-commentary-on-rumsfeld/


***
The man who sees absolutes, where all other men see nuances and shades of
meaning, is either a prophet, or a quack.


Donald H. Rumsfeld is not a prophet.


[]


Bang on! However, I'm curious as to why Curtis LeMay was ranked with
Nixon and McCarthy?


Aside from his opinions of use of nukes in Vietnam, I'd imagine his running as
Wallace's VP in '68 had something to do with it...

Don't recall either. Was that when Wallace was shot?
--
Fundies and trolls are cordially invited to
shove a wooden cross up their arses and rotate
at a high rate of speed. I trust you'll
be 'blessed' with a plethora of splinters.
.
User: "Free Lunch"

Title: Re: OT: Olbermann on Rumsfeld 03 Sep 2006 12:35:16 PM
On Sun, 03 Sep 2006 10:29:04 -0700, in alt.atheism
stoney <stoney@the.net> wrote in
<364mf2duc3tgmnd4bpa7880t6jsoogf8mb@4ax.com>:

On 01 Sep 2006 22:13:43 -0500, The Chief Instigator <patrick@io.com>
wrote in alt.atheism

stoney <stoney@the.net> writes:

On Wed, 30 Aug 2006 16:55:28 -1000, "G-Ride" <gride42nospam@yahoo.com>
wrote in alt.atheism


More like this please:


http://www.crooksandliars.com/2006/08/30/keith-olbermann-delivers-one-hell-of-a-commentary-on-rumsfeld/


***
The man who sees absolutes, where all other men see nuances and shades of
meaning, is either a prophet, or a quack.


Donald H. Rumsfeld is not a prophet.


[]


Bang on! However, I'm curious as to why Curtis LeMay was ranked with
Nixon and McCarthy?


Aside from his opinions of use of nukes in Vietnam, I'd imagine his running as
Wallace's VP in '68 had something to do with it...


Don't recall either. Was that when Wallace was shot?

No, Wallace was shot in '72 -- while running in the Democratic
primaries.
.
User: "stoney"

Title: Re: OT: Olbermann on Rumsfeld 13 Sep 2006 01:22:53 PM
On Sun, 03 Sep 2006 12:35:16 -0500, Free Lunch <lunch@nofreelunch.us>
wrote in alt.atheism

On Sun, 03 Sep 2006 10:29:04 -0700, in alt.atheism
stoney <stoney@the.net> wrote in
<364mf2duc3tgmnd4bpa7880t6jsoogf8mb@4ax.com>:

On 01 Sep 2006 22:13:43 -0500, The Chief Instigator <patrick@io.com>
wrote in alt.atheism

stoney <stoney@the.net> writes:

On Wed, 30 Aug 2006 16:55:28 -1000, "G-Ride" <gride42nospam@yahoo.com>
wrote in alt.atheism


More like this please:


http://www.crooksandliars.com/2006/08/30/keith-olbermann-delivers-one-hell-of-a-commentary-on-rumsfeld/


***
The man who sees absolutes, where all other men see nuances and shades of
meaning, is either a prophet, or a quack.


Donald H. Rumsfeld is not a prophet.


[]


Bang on! However, I'm curious as to why Curtis LeMay was ranked with
Nixon and McCarthy?


Aside from his opinions of use of nukes in Vietnam, I'd imagine his running as
Wallace's VP in '68 had something to do with it...


Don't recall either. Was that when Wallace was shot?


No, Wallace was shot in '72 -- while running in the Democratic
primaries.

Thank you.
--
Fundies and trolls are cordially invited to
shove a wooden cross up their arses and rotate
at a high rate of speed. I trust you'll
be 'blessed' with a plethora of splinters.
.


User: "The Chief Instigator"

Title: Re: OT: Olbermann on Rumsfeld 03 Sep 2006 01:50:57 PM
stoney <stoney@the.net> writes:

On 01 Sep 2006 22:13:43 -0500, The Chief Instigator <patrick@io.com>
wrote in alt.atheism

stoney <stoney@the.net> writes:

On Wed, 30 Aug 2006 16:55:28 -1000, "G-Ride" <gride42nospam@yahoo.com>
wrote in alt.atheism

More like this please:
http://www.crooksandliars.com/2006/08/30/keith-olbermann-delivers-one-hell-of-a-commentary-on-rumsfeld/
***
The man who sees absolutes, where all other men see nuances and shades of
meaning, is either a prophet, or a quack.
Donald H. Rumsfeld is not a prophet.

[]
Bang on! However, I'm curious as to why Curtis LeMay was ranked with
Nixon and McCarthy?

Aside from his opinions of use of nukes in Vietnam, I'd imagine his running
as Wallace's VP in '68 had something to do with it...

Don't recall either. Was that when Wallace was shot?

Actually, Wallace was shot in '72...but LeMay was bonkers in the '68 campaign,
advocating use of nukes against then-North Vietnam. (Had he and Wallace
somehow managed to win that race, we likely wouldn't be sitting here pondering
the possibilities.)
--
Patrick "The Chief Instigator" Humphrey (patrick@io.com) Houston, Texas
chiefinstigator.us.tt/aeros.php (TCI's 2006-07 Houston Aeros)
LAST GAME: Milwaukee 4, Houston 2 (May 9)
NEXT GAME: Saturday, October 7 vs. Grand Rapids, 7:35
.
User: "stoney"

Title: Re: OT: Olbermann on Rumsfeld 13 Sep 2006 01:23:41 PM
On 03 Sep 2006 13:50:57 -0500, The Chief Instigator <patrick@io.com>
wrote in alt.atheism

stoney <stoney@the.net> writes:

On 01 Sep 2006 22:13:43 -0500, The Chief Instigator <patrick@io.com>
wrote in alt.atheism


stoney <stoney@the.net> writes:


On Wed, 30 Aug 2006 16:55:28 -1000, "G-Ride" <gride42nospam@yahoo.com>
wrote in alt.atheism


More like this please:


http://www.crooksandliars.com/2006/08/30/keith-olbermann-delivers-one-hell-of-a-commentary-on-rumsfeld/


***
The man who sees absolutes, where all other men see nuances and shades of
meaning, is either a prophet, or a quack.


Donald H. Rumsfeld is not a prophet.


[]


Bang on! However, I'm curious as to why Curtis LeMay was ranked with
Nixon and McCarthy?


Aside from his opinions of use of nukes in Vietnam, I'd imagine his running
as Wallace's VP in '68 had something to do with it...


Don't recall either. Was that when Wallace was shot?


Actually, Wallace was shot in '72...but LeMay was bonkers in the '68 campaign,
advocating use of nukes against then-North Vietnam. (Had he and Wallace
somehow managed to win that race, we likely wouldn't be sitting here pondering
the possibilities.)

Thank you.
--
Fundies and trolls are cordially invited to
shove a wooden cross up their arses and rotate
at a high rate of speed. I trust you'll
be 'blessed' with a plethora of splinters.
.
User: "The Chief Instigator"

Title: Re: OT: Olbermann on Rumsfeld 13 Sep 2006 03:10:56 PM
stoney <stoney@the.net> writes:

On 03 Sep 2006 13:50:57 -0500, The Chief Instigator <patrick@io.com>
wrote in alt.atheism

stoney <stoney@the.net> writes:

On 01 Sep 2006 22:13:43 -0500, The Chief Instigator <patrick@io.com>
wrote in alt.atheism

stoney <stoney@the.net> writes:

On Wed, 30 Aug 2006 16:55:28 -1000, "G-Ride" <gride42nospam@yahoo.com>
wrote in alt.atheism

More like this please:
http://www.crooksandliars.com/2006/08/30/keith-olbermann-delivers-one-hell-of-a-commentary-on-rumsfeld/
***
The man who sees absolutes, where all other men see nuances and shades of
meaning, is either a prophet, or a quack.
Donald H. Rumsfeld is not a prophet.

[]
Bang on! However, I'm curious as to why Curtis LeMay was ranked with
Nixon and McCarthy?

Aside from his opinions of use of nukes in Vietnam, I'd imagine his running
as Wallace's VP in '68 had something to do with it...

Don't recall either. Was that when Wallace was shot?

Actually, Wallace was shot in '72...but LeMay was bonkers in the '68
campaign, advocating use of nukes against then-North Vietnam. (Had he and
Wallace somehow managed to win that race, we likely wouldn't be sitting here
pondering the possibilities.)

Thank you.

You're welcome...that one, I remember, because it was during the summer
between my graduation from high school and my entry into YooHoo (a/k/a UHou).
--
Patrick "The Chief Instigator" Humphrey (patrick@io.com) Houston, Texas
chiefinstigator.us.tt/aeros.php (TCI's 2006-07 Houston Aeros)
LAST GAME: Milwaukee 4, Houston 2 (May 9)
NEXT GAME: Saturday, October 7 vs. Grand Rapids, 7:35
.





User: "JTEM"

Title: Re: OT: Olbermann on Rumsfeld 01 Sep 2006 10:52:06 PM
stoney wrote:

Bang on! However, I'm curious as to why Curtis LeMay
was ranked with Nixon and McCarthy?

LeMay was far worse then Nixon. He actually wanted a
nuclear war.
I can't tell you what is fact and what isn't, but it's widely
reported that LeMay even went to far as to send
unauthorized flights into Soviet airspace, in a deliberate
attempt to provoke a conflict.
The crazy Airforce general in "Dr. Strangelove" was
based on LeMay.
.
User: "JTEM"

Title: Re: OT: Olbermann on Rumsfeld 04 Sep 2006 06:12:09 PM
Emmanual Kann wrote:

JTEM eloquently composed:

The crazy Airforce general in "Dr. Strangelove" was
based on LeMay.


Was that the general who was obsessed with the purity
of his bodily fluids?

Yes. The general trying to start a nuclear war.
.

User: "stoney"

Title: Re: OT: Olbermann on Rumsfeld 03 Sep 2006 12:29:43 PM
On 1 Sep 2006 20:52:06 -0700, "JTEM" <jtem01@gmail.com> wrote in
alt.atheism


stoney wrote:

Bang on! However, I'm curious as to why Curtis LeMay
was ranked with Nixon and McCarthy?


LeMay was far worse then Nixon. He actually wanted a
nuclear war.

I can't tell you what is fact and what isn't, but it's widely
reported that LeMay even went to far as to send
unauthorized flights into Soviet airspace, in a deliberate
attempt to provoke a conflict.

The crazy Airforce general in "Dr. Strangelove" was
based on LeMay.

Thank you.
--
Fundies and trolls are cordially invited to
shove a wooden cross up their arses and rotate
at a high rate of speed. I trust you'll
be 'blessed' with a plethora of splinters.
.



User: "Yang, AthD h.c, Kicking AWOLs Cocaine Snorting Ass"

Title: Re: OT: Olbermann on Rumsfeld 30 Aug 2006 10:43:23 PM
On Wed, 30 Aug 2006 16:55:28 -1000, "G-Ride" <gride42nospam@yahoo.com>
wrote:

More like this please:

http://www.crooksandliars.com/2006/08/30/keith-olbermann-delivers-one-hell-of-a-commentary-on-rumsfeld/

Exactly. Those facist-NeoCons hate us for our First Amendment
freedoms.


***
The man who sees absolutes, where all other men see nuances and shades of
meaning, is either a prophet, or a quack.

Donald H. Rumsfeld is not a prophet.

Mr. Rumsfeld's remarkable speech to the American Legion yesterday demands
the deep analysis-and the sober contemplation-of every American.

For it did not merely serve to impugn the morality or intelligence --
indeed, the loyalty -- of the majority of Americans who oppose the transient
occupants of the highest offices in the land. Worse, still, it credits those
same transient occupants -- our employees -- with a total omniscience; a
total omniscience which neither common sense, nor this administration's
track record at home or abroad, suggests they deserve.

Dissent and disagreement with government is the life's blood of human
freedom; and not merely because it is the first roadblock against the kind
of tyranny the men Mr. Rumsfeld likes to think of as "his" troops still
fight, this very evening, in Iraq.

It is also essential. Because just every once in awhile it is right and the
power to which it speaks, is wrong.

In a small irony, however, Mr. Rumsfeld's speechwriter was adroit in
invoking the memory of the appeasement of the Nazis. For in their time,
there was another government faced with true peril-with a growing
evil-powerful and remorseless.

That government, like Mr. Rumsfeld's, had a monopoly on all the facts. It,
too, had the "secret information." It alone had the true picture of the
threat. It too dismissed and insulted its critics in terms like Mr. Rumsfeld
's -- questioning their intellect and their morality.

That government was England's, in the 1930's.

It knew Hitler posed no true threat to Europe, let alone England.

It knew Germany was not re-arming, in violation of all treaties and accords.

It knew that the hard evidence it received, which contradicted its own
policies, its own conclusions - its own omniscience -- needed to be
dismissed.

The English government of Neville Chamberlain already knew the truth.

Most relevant of all - it "knew" that its staunchest critics needed to be
marginalized and isolated. In fact, it portrayed the foremost of them as a
blood-thirsty war-monger who was, if not truly senile, at best morally or
intellectually confused.

That critic's name was Winston Churchill.

Sadly, we have no Winston Churchills evident among us this evening. We have
only Donald Rumsfelds, demonizing disagreement, the way Neville Chamberlain
demonized Winston Churchill.

History - and 163 million pounds of Luftwaffe bombs over England - have
taught us that all Mr. Chamberlain had was his certainty - and his own
confusion. A confusion that suggested that the office can not only make the
man, but that the office can also make the facts.

Thus, did Mr. Rumsfeld make an apt historical analogy.

Excepting the fact, that he has the battery plugged in backwards.

His government, absolute -- and exclusive -- in its knowledge, is not the
modern version of the one which stood up to the Nazis.

It is the modern version of the government of Neville Chamberlain.

But back to today's Omniscient ones.

That, about which Mr. Rumsfeld is confused is simply this: This is a
Democracy. Still. Sometimes just barely.

And, as such, all voices count -- not just his.

Had he or his president perhaps proven any of their prior claims of
omniscience - about Osama Bin Laden's plans five years ago, about Saddam
Hussein's weapons four years ago, about Hurricane Katrina's impact one year
ago - we all might be able to swallow hard, and accept their "omniscience"
as a bearable, even useful recipe, of fact, plus ego.

But, to date, this government has proved little besides its own arrogance,
and its own hubris.

Mr. Rumsfeld is also personally confused, morally or intellectually, about
his own standing in this matter. From Iraq to Katrina, to the entire "Fog of
Fear" which continues to envelop this nation, he, Mr. Bush, Mr. Cheney, and
their cronies have - inadvertently or intentionally - profited and
benefited, both personally, and politically.

And yet he can stand up, in public, and question the morality and the
intellect of those of us who dare ask just for the receipt for the Emporer's
New Clothes?

In what country was Mr. Rumsfeld raised? As a child, of whose heroism did he
read? On what side of the battle for freedom did he dream one day to fight?
With what country has he confused the United States of America?

The confusion we -- as its citizens- must now address, is stark and
forbidding.

But variations of it have faced our forefathers, when men like Nixon and
McCarthy and Curtis LeMay have darkened our skies and obscured our flag.
Note -- with hope in your heart - that those earlier Americans always found
their way to the light, and we can, too.

The confusion is about whether this Secretary of Defense, and this
administration, are in fact now accomplishing what they claim the terrorists
seek: The destruction of our freedoms, the very ones for which the same
veterans Mr. Rumsfeld addressed yesterday in Salt Lake City, so valiantly
fought.

And about Mr. Rumsfeld's other main assertion, that this country faces a
"new type of fascism."

As he was correct to remind us how a government that knew everything could
get everything wrong, so too was he right when he said that -- though
probably not in the way he thought he meant it.

This country faces a new type of fascism - indeed.

Although I presumptuously use his sign-off each night, in feeble tribute, I
have utterly no claim to the words of the exemplary journalist Edward R.
Murrow.

But never in the trial of a thousand years of writing could I come close to
matching how he phrased a warning to an earlier generation of us, at a time
when other politicians thought they (and they alone) knew everything, and
branded those who disagreed: "confused" or "immoral."

Thus, forgive me, for reading Murrow, in full:

"We must not confuse dissent with disloyalty," he said, in 1954. "We must
remember always that accusation is not proof, and that conviction depends
upon evidence and due process of law.

"We will not walk in fear, one of another. We will not be driven by fear
into an age of unreason, if we dig deep in our history and our doctrine, and
remember that we are not descended from fearful men, not from men who feared
to write, to speak, to associate, and to defend causes that were for the
moment unpopular."

And so good night, and good luck.
***

-----
Yang
a.a. #28
AthD (h.c.) conferred by the regents of the LCL
a.a. pastor #-273.15, the most frigid church of Celcius nee Kelvin
EAC Econometric Forecast and Sorcery Division
The Bush 'balanced' budget: -2 trillion and worsening
The Bush 'economic' policy: 12.5 million FEWER jobs than Clinton and counting
The Bush Iraq lie: -2637 GIs, one friend's co-worker's son and mounting
Having Bush ***** up my country: Worthless
-----
Contact duke's priest and ask
him why duke is such a racist:
http://www.stpatrickbr.org/
-----
newsgroups Yang promises not to revenge post
in response to Sound-of-Trumpet's *****:
rec.art.scifi.written
sci.archaeology
soc.history.what-if
.
User: "JTEM"

Title: Re: OT: Olbermann on Rumsfeld 30 Aug 2006 11:03:51 PM
Yang, AthD (h.c), Kicking AWOL's Cocaine Snorting ***** wrote:

Exactly. Those facist-NeoCons hate us for our First
Amendment freedoms.

The sad part being that you're not kidding.
Howard Dean got it right, calling Rumsfeld an object of
ridicule. At this point people are retiring from the
military just so they can bad mouth Rumsfeld, the latest
being the commander of the 1st Infantry Division in Iraq.
They should have got rid of Rumsfeld in the fist weeks of
the war, while he was openly blaming the military
commanders for the problems in Iraq.
.
User: "johac"

Title: Re: OT: Olbermann on Rumsfeld 31 Aug 2006 12:28:41 AM
In article <1156997031.829694.136340@h48g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>,
"JTEM" <jtem01@gmail.com> wrote:

Yang, AthD (h.c), Kicking AWOL's Cocaine Snorting ***** wrote:

Exactly. Those facist-NeoCons hate us for our First
Amendment freedoms.


The sad part being that you're not kidding.

Howard Dean got it right, calling Rumsfeld an object of
ridicule. At this point people are retiring from the
military just so they can bad mouth Rumsfeld, the latest
being the commander of the 1st Infantry Division in Iraq.

They should have got rid of Rumsfeld in the fist weeks of
the war, while he was openly blaming the military
commanders for the problems in Iraq.

I recently read "Cobra II: The Inside Story of the Invasion and
Occupation of Iraq" by Michael R. Gordon and Bernard E. Trainor.
According to the book, it's incredible how much Rummy screwed up. In any
other administration, he would have been gone a long time ago.
--
John Hachmann aa #1782
"Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities"
-Voltaire
Contact - Throw a .net over the .com
.




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