| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"Young, Free and British without breasts" |
| Date: |
17 Sep 2003 08:16:20 AM |
| Object: |
OT: One of them moral dilemmas |
Hi, this doesn't directly concern religion, but I am posting here
because I am looking for sound advice not based on any particular
faith and since this newsgroup seems to be full of moral, intelligent,
areligious people who I have come across before, I thought I'd ask
around.
I have just discovered that my dear sweet mother(a Scottish housewife
who crys at the end of ET, is all you need to know) has been suffering
in blissful ignorance, long-term betrayal at the hands of my father,
husband of 21 years. I do not live with either of them, so from a
selfish point of view this does not affect my practical life, but
draft emails left on his computer, although not overly explicit, lay
bare the incredible and shameless extent of the betrayal, reveal where
lies took place, and basically is the worst concievable act of
extramarital deceit. I have been told just as incredible lies as it's
me that he got to enable the email system in the first place for that
purpose.
Both parents are not very computer literate, least of all my mother,
which is why it was easy for me to stumble upon the Word documents and
why it is difficult(although not impossible) to let the emails speak
for themselves to my mother, unless I actually print them out.
Although she does shop online.
My father plans to cheat on my mother until her dying day(she is 50).
They are supposed to be in a happy marriage, and although it's not
100% they get on pretty okay.
This has been going on for a minimum of 6 months as this is when the
emails date from although it could easily be 6 years for all i know.
I am not resigned to doing nothing. I want to do something but I am
looking for practical advice. I do not want to command or even advise
any of my parents, just to let the truth come out. I hardly spend any
time over there so i have a shortage of moments to "choose" from. At
any rate, I see marriage under false pretenses as immoral, and cannot
allow this to continue. Even if he were to end it, which doesnt seem
likely, I still see a fraudulent marriage unless the truth about the
past is out.
I personally do not feel hurt but I feel anger and anger at betrayal,
not to mention sorrow for my mother. I do not wish to see my mother
kept inside the Truman show any longer.
Note that I do not overly wish a divorce on her as she only has a
low-wage job(although is a qualified nurse in the past), but rather
that than this.
I understand that sometimes relationship overlaps are necessary in the
case of one person leaving some person for another, as opposed to
jumping to conclusions, but this is not the case.
--
Iain
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| User: "L. Raymond" |
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| Title: Re: OT: One of them moral dilemmas |
17 Sep 2003 10:01:41 AM |
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(Young, Free and British without breasts)
wrote:
I have just discovered that my dear sweet mother(a Scottish housewife
who crys at the end of ET, is all you need to know) has been suffering
in blissful ignorance, long-term betrayal at the hands of my father,
husband of 21 years. I do not live with either of them, so from a
selfish point of view this does not affect my practical life, but
draft emails left on his computer, although not overly explicit, lay
bare the incredible and shameless extent of the betrayal, reveal where
lies took place, and basically is the worst concievable act of
extramarital deceit. I have been told just as incredible lies as it's
me that he got to enable the email system in the first place for that
purpose.
In a case like this, I'd say the best thing would be for your father
himself to admit to her what is going on. You should be able to force
the issue by accidently running into him at the rendevous which you
got from his e-mail, meeting the woman and leaving him with the
knowledge that if he does not tell your mother, you will.
By no means mention the e-mails. Since you are out to punish him
for abusing your mother's trust, it would be a bad tactic to admit you
learned of it by violating your father's privacy.
--
L. Raymond
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| User: "Young Free and /british without Breasts" |
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| Title: Re: OT: One of them moral dilemmas |
17 Sep 2003 12:45:30 PM |
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L. Raymond <badaddress@mylinuxisp.com> wrote in message
news:3f68762c.1094327@news.mylinuxisp.com...
iain_inkster@hotmail.com (Young, Free and British without breasts)
wrote:
I have just discovered that my dear sweet mother(a Scottish housewife
who crys at the end of ET, is all you need to know) has been suffering
in blissful ignorance, long-term betrayal at the hands of my father,
husband of 21 years. I do not live with either of them, so from a
selfish point of view this does not affect my practical life, but
draft emails left on his computer, although not overly explicit, lay
bare the incredible and shameless extent of the betrayal, reveal where
lies took place, and basically is the worst concievable act of
extramarital deceit. I have been told just as incredible lies as it's
me that he got to enable the email system in the first place for that
purpose.
In a case like this, I'd say the best thing would be for your father
himself to admit to her what is going on. You should be able to force
the issue by accidently running into him at the rendevous which you
got from his e-mail, meeting the woman and leaving him with the
knowledge that if he does not tell your mother, you will.
By no means mention the e-mails. Since you are out to punish him
for abusing your mother's trust, it would be a bad tactic to admit you
learned of it by violating your father's privacy.
There are 3 flaws with this. One is that there is AFAIK no consistent future
meeting place, only an "october rendevous" probably outside the state. No
pretext for me being there. Secondly, I have not invaded his privacy as
such...it is a shared computer which my mother uses to do online shopping.
He is just such a dolt he forgot to delete the MS Word copies of his email
drafts. The files were there for everyone to see, and could have been
something of mine for all I knew. It's just I am the only other person with
the confidence to actually recognise and click on a word file.
--
Iain
.
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| User: "L. Raymond" |
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| Title: Re: OT: One of them moral dilemmas |
17 Sep 2003 03:01:33 PM |
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wrote:
L. Raymond <badaddress@mylinuxisp.com> wrote
wrote:
In a case like this, I'd say the best thing would be for your father
himself to admit to her what is going on. You should be able to force
the issue by accidently running into him at the rendevous which you
got from his e-mail, meeting the woman and leaving him with the
knowledge that if he does not tell your mother, you will.
By no means mention the e-mails. Since you are out to punish him
for abusing your mother's trust, it would be a bad tactic to admit you
learned of it by violating your father's privacy.
There are 3 flaws with this. One is that there is AFAIK no consistent future
meeting place, only an "october rendevous" probably outside the state. No
pretext for me being there.
No pretext is required. And being out of state should not matter.
If it disturbs you as much as you say it does, then the effort would
be negligible compared to the result.
Secondly, I have not invaded his privacy as
such...it is a shared computer which my mother uses to do online shopping.
He is just such a dolt he forgot to delete the MS Word copies of his email
drafts. The files were there for everyone to see, and could have been
something of mine for all I knew. It's just I am the only other person with
the confidence to actually recognise and click on a word file.
You said you do not live in the house and that the computer belongs
to your parents. It does not matter that you may have left something
on their hard drive, if you took the liberty of opening a file you did
not recognize on a computer you do not own and you read it, then you
certainly did invade their privacy. Aside from the etiquette
involved, the significance of this you wish to berate your father for
betraying your mother's trust when you only found out about it by
betraying his. You should either decide to own up to what you did by
discussing it directly with your father, produce the evidence for your
mother and let her decide how to react, or back off and let things
take their course.
--
L. Raymond
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| User: "Young Free and /british without Breasts" |
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| Title: Re: OT: One of them moral dilemmas |
17 Sep 2003 07:13:39 PM |
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L. Raymond <badaddress@mylinuxisp.com> wrote in message
news:3f68bafe.237241@news.mylinuxisp.com...
iain_inkster@hotmail.com wrote:
L. Raymond <badaddress@mylinuxisp.com> wrote
iain_inkster@hotmail.com wrote:
In a case like this, I'd say the best thing would be for your father
himself to admit to her what is going on. You should be able to force
the issue by accidently running into him at the rendevous which you
got from his e-mail, meeting the woman and leaving him with the
knowledge that if he does not tell your mother, you will.
By no means mention the e-mails. Since you are out to punish him
for abusing your mother's trust, it would be a bad tactic to admit you
learned of it by violating your father's privacy.
There are 3 flaws with this. One is that there is AFAIK no consistent
future
meeting place, only an "october rendevous" probably outside the state. No
pretext for me being there.
No pretext is required. And being out of state should not matter.
If it disturbs you as much as you say it does, then the effort would
be negligible compared to the result.
Secondly, I have not invaded his privacy as
such...it is a shared computer which my mother uses to do online
shopping.
He is just such a dolt he forgot to delete the MS Word copies of his
email
drafts. The files were there for everyone to see, and could have been
something of mine for all I knew. It's just I am the only other person
with
the confidence to actually recognise and click on a word file.
You said you do not live in the house and that the computer belongs
to your parents. It does not matter that you may have left something
on their hard drive, if you took the liberty of opening a file you did
not recognize on a computer you do not own and you read it, then you
certainly did invade their privacy. Aside from the etiquette
involved, the significance of this you wish to berate your father for
betraying your mother's trust when you only found out about it by
betraying his. You should either decide to own up to what you did by
discussing it directly with your father, produce the evidence for your
mother and let her decide how to react, or back off and let things
take their course.
Hmm, a computer I am permitted to use and have used for about 5 years...my
brother does not own it either, yet he is allowed to browse the desktop
contents. I open recycle bin, look at deleted Word doc with indescript name,
could be mine, my brothers, my mother's. My father's work is not something
private which he has trusted I stay out of, nor is the recycle bin. Only
just now he informed me the computer is free to use.
He has not established any privacy for me to violate in the first place. I
shall "own up". Idly clicking on a Windows desktop doesn't quite compare to
marital deciet.
--
Iain
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| User: "jwk" |
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| Title: Re: OT: One of them moral dilemmas |
17 Sep 2003 02:52:35 PM |
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(Young, Free and British without breasts) wrote in message news:<6feb9a89.0309170516.20aaa1bd@posting.google.com>...
[snip]
I'm always torn between answering these things and pretending I didn't
see them. Guess I'll answer this one.
You already have very strong opinions of what you want to do. I'd
advise taking a while to calm down first.
You feel betrayed. Are you sure that ruining your mother's life will
make you feel better? Maybe that is not what you will be doing; you
know the situation best. Just make sure you consider the
consequences, to your mother (and to your father as well), of your
actions before you act.
Things to consider:
Maybe she knows. The internet is not going to be the only indicator
of adultery. She might have her own ideas of what response is
appropriate. If you get in the middle, however, she might have to
take other actions because she feels they are expected of her. Don't
force her to take actions she doesn't want to.
She might not care or might not object. Some women feel this way; I
don't know about your mother so please don't take offense. I know
there are women who would be glad to let some other person take over
the "chore" of sex. But they aren't quite as happy to let people
know.
Maybe your father needs a little understanding here. Do you even care
why this is happening? The common assumption is that men are bad and
women are victims. That seems simplistic to me. Why is he having an
affair? Is it only that he found a better looking woman? (The common
assumption.) He has to have reasons, bad or good. Whether you can
find them out is another matter. If you *have to tell Mom, you'd be
smart to confront Dad first. Don't let her know that he knows that
you know when you let her know what you know. (Sorry. I just had
to.:))
Would your mother really be better off without her husband? Even if
he has a mistress? If you tell her, you will almost force her to do
*something. Even if she already knew, *your telling her changes
things. If you just have to tell her, don't tell anyone else, and let
her know you won't say anything more. Let her decide what is the best
response. Let her know you are out of it unless she wants you to
stick your nose back in. Don't force her into the action you feel she
should take.
I doubt any of that was helpful. Good luck.
jwk
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| User: "Young Free and /british without Breasts" |
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| Title: Re: One of them moral dilemmas |
17 Sep 2003 06:33:00 PM |
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In response to posts so far: I do not pretend to know what is right for
their marriage, but I know my mother is being betrayed and that she would
want me to have *informed* her of the truth. If she's happy with it, fine.
They can have an open marriage and adopt a hippo for all I care.
How can I be ruining anyones life by stating truth of that nature? If your
friend's brother dies, are you ruining his life by telling him? No! It was
an act of nature/car crash/murder , whatever. I shall not "interfere", take
sides or get between anyone. Does a teenager's life get ruined by his poor
exam marks or the letter he gets in the post which lists them? This
messenger cannot be shot.
As for the consequences of divorce and my mother's future income, if Jack
the ripper was your landlord, and someone who supported you and gave you
food and money, you'd still want to know his true nature.
Would it really be intrusive, irresponsible, or clumsy? Just me stating a
cold solid, significant, relevant true fact? Then saying nothing thereafter?
If I do nothing, this could well go on for 5 more years, she then finds out
somehow, and it's an even bigger issue for her. More of her life has been
stolen. I have a moral responsability. Yes, I have held my breath and
counted to ten, but any consequences that arises will be the choice of my
mother and father based on the truth.
I cannot alone let my father confess, for he could downplay the extent of
the betrayal to anything he likes. His emails lay this bare. Secondly, this
is not hacking, privacy invading, etc. This are email drafts on a family
computer in MS Word files left clumsily for anyone to see.
I posted here to discuss the practicalities of letting my fragile minded
mother know the truth, for she still has a valued life ahead of her. My
reasons for dawdling on the issue is that this is one massive marriage
amongst a large extended family and not something to be taken lightly. I
cannot continue to keep this from her as this would be a betrayal as a son.
--
Iain
Young, Free and British without breasts <iain_inkster@hotmail.com> wrote in
message news:6feb9a89.0309170516.20aaa1bd@posting.google.com...
Hi, this doesn't directly concern religion, but I am posting here
because I am looking for sound advice not based on any particular
faith and since this newsgroup seems to be full of moral, intelligent,
areligious people who I have come across before, I thought I'd ask
around.
I have just discovered that my dear sweet mother(a Scottish housewife
who crys at the end of ET, is all you need to know) has been suffering
in blissful ignorance, long-term betrayal at the hands of my father,
husband of 21 years. I do not live with either of them, so from a
selfish point of view this does not affect my practical life, but
draft emails left on his computer, although not overly explicit, lay
bare the incredible and shameless extent of the betrayal, reveal where
lies took place, and basically is the worst concievable act of
extramarital deceit. I have been told just as incredible lies as it's
me that he got to enable the email system in the first place for that
purpose.
Both parents are not very computer literate, least of all my mother,
which is why it was easy for me to stumble upon the Word documents and
why it is difficult(although not impossible) to let the emails speak
for themselves to my mother, unless I actually print them out.
Although she does shop online.
My father plans to cheat on my mother until her dying day(she is 50).
They are supposed to be in a happy marriage, and although it's not
100% they get on pretty okay.
This has been going on for a minimum of 6 months as this is when the
emails date from although it could easily be 6 years for all i know.
I am not resigned to doing nothing. I want to do something but I am
looking for practical advice. I do not want to command or even advise
any of my parents, just to let the truth come out. I hardly spend any
time over there so i have a shortage of moments to "choose" from. At
any rate, I see marriage under false pretenses as immoral, and cannot
allow this to continue. Even if he were to end it, which doesnt seem
likely, I still see a fraudulent marriage unless the truth about the
past is out.
I personally do not feel hurt but I feel anger and anger at betrayal,
not to mention sorrow for my mother. I do not wish to see my mother
kept inside the Truman show any longer.
Note that I do not overly wish a divorce on her as she only has a
low-wage job(although is a qualified nurse in the past), but rather
that than this.
I understand that sometimes relationship overlaps are necessary in the
case of one person leaving some person for another, as opposed to
jumping to conclusions, but this is not the case.
--
Iain
.
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| User: "Kronk" |
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| Title: Re: OT: One of them moral dilemmas |
17 Sep 2003 02:30:57 PM |
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On 17 Sep 2003 06:16:20 -0700, (Young, Free
and British without breasts) wrote:
Hi, this doesn't directly concern religion, but I am posting here
because I am looking for sound advice not based on any particular
faith and since this newsgroup seems to be full of moral, intelligent,
areligious people who I have come across before, I thought I'd ask
around.
I have just discovered that my dear sweet mother(a Scottish housewife
who crys at the end of ET, is all you need to know) has been suffering
in blissful ignorance, long-term betrayal at the hands of my father,
husband of 21 years.
Meaning she has been suffering betrayal without knowing she is
suffering?
<...>
I am not resigned to doing nothing. I want to do something but I am
looking for practical advice. I do not want to command or even advise
any of my parents, just to let the truth come out.
To "let" the truth come out? So if the truth is the agent acting to
reveal itself, that would neatly let you off the hook for any
responsiblity for the consequences, wouldn't it? Don't kid yourself.
You have to decide which is more important to you--keeping your hands
clean (in which case you should keep out) or forcing the truth out (in
which case you have to accept the responsibility for what happens).
I see marriage under false pretenses as immoral, and cannot
allow this to continue.
Is this because you feel entitled to wade into any marriage that has
problems (presumably under the theory that marriage is a public
institution and a petition to the community at large to make the
couple honor their commitments to each other) or is this because you
feel your kinship makes you a late-arriving full partner in their
marriage? Is your view of marriage the only one that matters here?
What is their view of marriage, and of your place in their marriage in
particular? If they don't consider you a full partner, and they don't
subscribe to the marriage-as-a-public-institution view, then I would
say you could only interfere by giving your view of marriage priority
over theirs.
Even if he were to end it, which doesnt seem likely, I still see a
fraudulent marriage unless the truth about the past is out.
And this offense to you matters more than any consequences to your
parents' or their marriage. Right?
I personally do not feel hurt but I feel anger and anger at betrayal,
not to mention sorrow for my mother. I do not wish to see my mother
kept inside the Truman show any longer.
Is there anything about this betrayal that physically endangers your
mother? If not, I would make her wishes my first priority. I would
do everything I could to make sure this is something she would want to
know about before I did anything. Some people, most people I would
say, prefer to live with comfortable lies.
Note that I do not overly wish a divorce on her as she only has a
low-wage job(although is a qualified nurse in the past), but rather
that than this.
What you mean by that--and what you are trying to avoid saying--is
that *you'd* rather have that than this. Is this all about you?
Kronk
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