The "nice" thing about the Cold War was that both sides had a
reasonably well developed instinct for self preservation and the
threat of nuclear mutually assured destruction held them back from the
brink. This time around there are extremist Muslims _and_ Christians
who positively welcome mutual destruction. Very, very scary indeed.

On Sun, 6 Jan 2008 19:51:01 -0000, "Les Hemmings"
<les.frontalclaire@lobesvirgin.net> wrote:

panamfloyd@hotmail.com wrote:

I know. Many of my "liberal" friends here in the US are astounded to
hear me speaking of Islam in a manner similar to our "conservative"
opponents. I tell them they just don't know religion like I do.

-PF, etc.

I used to think the barrier for our species was the cold war. We got
through
that without a nuclear exchange... just.

But then islam reared it's ugly head and I realised it was not the east /
west communist / market economy duopoly we had to fear. It was the
rational
/ religion divide that will be the conflict that will be the one we need
to
break through to make

The trouble is that it's not just the religious irrationality - we
have made them hate us because of our interference in their region. We
installed leaders for them who would provide us with the oil we needed
and did what was necessary to keep them in power. Iran didn't call us
the Great Satan for religious reasons but because of our installation
and support for the hated Shah. 9/11 wasn't because of Islamic
extremism but a political act - the religious part was that it
facilitated their suicide.

We suckered the Soviets into Afghanistan. It was Carter's National
Security Adviser, Zbigniew Brzezinski. We then encouraged and used
Islamic fundamentalist insurgents against the Soviets.

Brezezinski afterwards said

"Regret what? That secret operation was an excellent idea. It had the
effect of drawing the Russians into the Afghan trap and you want me to
regret it? The day that the Soviets officially crossed the border, I
wrote to President Carter, essentially: 'We now have the opportunity
of giving the USSR its Vietnam War.'"

and

"What is more important in world history? The Taliban or the collapse
of the Soviet empire? Some agitated Muslims or the liberation of
Central Europe and the end of the cold war?"

We're now seeing the results of what we fostered.

http://www.bidstrup.com/hate.htm

The worrying thing is that we here in the west are currently swinging
towards a theocracy as well as the middle east taliban maniacs. I never
foresaw the 21st century christian / islam fundamentalist conflict we are
now falling headlong into. America is such a frighteningly religious
country
and getting worse it seems. Casting off any progress made towards rational
thought during the reformation, matched only by the unreformed islamic
hoards who wish to take the planet back to the 14th century.

It's scary.

Especially as it is accompanies by a mixture of psychopathy and
sociopathy.

Idiots like Mile Huckabee, General Boykin etc make remarks to their
co-religionists that they imagine don't get reported to the rest of
the world.

And then they claim the remarks weren't intended for rational voters,
or for the Muslims whose co-operation Boykin needs. And even attack
those who take notice.

What are we supposed to do? Ignore what their real position is?

The fact that both sides are willing and able to go nuclear is overloading
my irony circuits. Creationists and muslims using the fruits of the
european
scientific revolution that started in the reformation to threaten this
species very existence is truly chilling. The very science both sides
refute
to pursue their deluded aims is a divided mindset Orwell would have been
proud of.

Thatcher had a guided nuclear missile submarine off Argentina during
the Falklands war. That was scary - she was supposed to be rational.
But it was a war she couldn't afford to lose.

Doublethink may well bring about the end of this civilisation. It's time
the
liberals woke up to the fact that this is not the time for respect of
others
beliefs, no more the misguided concept of multiculturalism or making
allowances for the other side's never ending ability to be "insulted".
It's
time to train, arm and fight for a technological, secular civilisation
that
we thought we had but is now being taken away from our grasp by the
religious morons on both sides.

It's more complicated than that. We have to undo decades of our
actions towards them, including rebuilding Iraq and Afghanistan.
Decontaminating them from the after effects of our weaponry. Etc.

Giving them back their countries. And if we don't like their
governments after that, it is their problem not ours because change
can only come from inside.

No more taking sides in their internal politics. No more imposing
leaders who do what we want, etc.

Because that will set things off again.

Nehemiah Scudder meets Big Brother meets Kenghis Khan

Unfortunately you get that with secular dictatorships as well. England
after the Falklands war had a lot of justified paranoia - remember the
old lady who grew roses, whose nephew worked in the Northwood bunker,
and who wrote a paper criticising nuclear power to read at the
Sizewell inquiry? The last two earned her subversion points that took
her over a threshold.

But if you couple that with religion it becomes orders of magnitude
worse. Blair consulted God before invading Iraq. God told Bush to
smite Afghanistan and then Iraq.

Les