| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"Uncle Clover" |
| Date: |
15 Oct 2006 01:18:16 AM |
| Object: |
OT: Physics q re: gravity control and light speed |
When it comes to speculation about objects which somehow manage to
travel at or near the speed of light, we're well aware that some pretty strange
effects can be expected to occur. Time dilation, infinite mass, etc... etc...
etc....
Research is ongoing into methods of controlling gravity. I don't think
we've actually made -any- real-world attempts, we're still very much at the
speculation & design stage. One thing I'm fairly sure of is that once we've
achieved gravity control, the ability to make portholes and wormholes won't be
very long in following.
It's all just theory at this point, of course, but the theory of it all
is fascinating. What I'm curious to know is if gravity control could be used to
alter some of the effects which go along with travelling at the velocity of
light. Could gravity be manipulated in such a way as to somehow "undilate" time
for the c traveller? Could it somehow be used to reduce the amount of fuel
needed to attain light speeds from "all the energy in the universe" to something
a bit more manageable - like, say, a star or two? Are any answers actually
known for this line of questioning?
Just curious... Thanks for your time. :-)
--
L8r,
Uncle Clover
************************************************
The true mark of a civilized society is that its
citizens know how to hate each other peacefully.
************************************************
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| User: "Josef Balluch" |
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| Title: Re: OT: Physics q re: gravity control and light speed |
15 Oct 2006 11:13:24 AM |
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In a message sent 'round the world, Uncle Clover poured fuel on the fire
with the following:
....
What I'm curious to know is if gravity control could be used to
alter some of the effects which go along with travelling at the velocity of
light. Could gravity be manipulated in such a way as to somehow "undilate" time
for the c traveller?
Einstein's relativity tells us that the observer can consider himself to
be at rest, so the observer does not experience time dilation. IOW, time
dilation happens to "someone else". In any case, what problems do you
see for the "c traveller" wrt time dilation?
Could it somehow be used to reduce the amount of fuel
needed to attain light speeds from "all the energy in the universe" to something
a bit more manageable - like, say, a star or two?
Strictly speaking, this is a problem of "inertia control" rather than
"gravity control". To control inertia we first need to know why some
things have the property called "mass". If we could reduce or eliminate
mass then we certainly could make things move along quite nicely near or
at the speed of light.
....
Regards,
Josef
What is not in nature can never be true.
-- Voltaire
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| User: "Mike" |
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| Title: Re: OT: Physics q re: gravity control and light speed |
15 Oct 2006 01:48:23 AM |
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Uncle Clover wrote:
When it comes to speculation about objects which somehow manage to
travel at or near the speed of light, we're well aware that some pretty strange
effects can be expected to occur. Time dilation, infinite mass, etc... etc...
etc....
Research is ongoing into methods of controlling gravity.
Beg pardon? What kind of research and where is it going on? You've
been reading too much science fiction rather than science exposition.
I don't think
we've actually made -any- real-world attempts, we're still very much at the
speculation & design stage.
We are still at the pure fantasy science fiction stage. Do you have a
link to provide that would substantiate your idea that any scientist
anywhere in the world is studying "methods to control gravity"?
One thing I'm fairly sure of is that once we've
achieved gravity control, the ability to make portholes and wormholes won't be
very long in following.
Did you say ONCE we've achieved gravity control? And praytell, how
are we to control localized space-time curvature? You may have a false
idea that science progresses by proving new things to be possible.
That is often the case, but science also progresses by proving things
impossible. The theory of thermodynamics proved impossible the old
dream of creating a perpetual motion machine. But instead of lamenting
the impossibility of perpetual motion machines we can rejoice that the
newfold understanding of thermodynamics made it possible to conceive of
how to make a refrigerator. Einstein showed that the speed of light
cannot be exceeded by a massive object. But instead of lamenting the
impossibility of faster-than-light travel we can rejoice in the fact
that we now have nuclear bombs! (Well, I'll have to think about that
one.)
It's all just theory at this point, of course, but the theory of it all
is fascinating.
If you have genuine "theory" in the proper scientific meaning of the
word, I would be fascinated to hear it.
What I'm curious to know is if gravity control could be used to
alter some of the effects which go along with travelling at the velocity of
light. Could gravity be manipulated in such a way as to somehow "undilate" time
for the c traveller?
Quite the contrary. General relativity shows that gravity produces its
own time dilation that could augment time dilation do to velocity, but
certainly not reduce it.
Could it somehow be used to reduce the amount of fuel
needed to attain light speeds from "all the energy in the universe" to something
a bit more manageable - like, say, a star or two? Are any answers actually
known for this line of questioning?
Line of fantasizing is more appropriate.
Just curious... Thanks for your time. :-)
--
Mike
"A mind is not a vessel to be filled, but a fire to be kindled."
(Plutarch)
L8r,
Uncle Clover
************************************************
The true mark of a civilized society is that its
citizens know how to hate each other peacefully.
************************************************
.
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| User: "Uncle Clover" |
|
| Title: Re: OT: Physics q re: gravity control and light speed |
15 Oct 2006 03:05:40 AM |
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On 14 Oct 2006 23:48:23 -0700, "Mike" <matmzc@hofstra.edu> wrote:
Uncle Clover wrote:
When it comes to speculation about objects which somehow manage to
travel at or near the speed of light, we're well aware that some pretty strange
effects can be expected to occur. Time dilation, infinite mass, etc... etc...
etc....
Research is ongoing into methods of controlling gravity.
Beg pardon? What kind of research and where is it going on? You've
been reading too much science fiction rather than science exposition.
I don't think
we've actually made -any- real-world attempts, we're still very much at the
speculation & design stage.
We are still at the pure fantasy science fiction stage. Do you have a
link to provide that would substantiate your idea that any scientist
anywhere in the world is studying "methods to control gravity"?
Sure, try NASA:
http://www.nasa.gov/centers/glenn/research/warp/gravstat.html
One thing I'm fairly sure of is that once we've
achieved gravity control, the ability to make portholes and wormholes won't be
very long in following.
Did you say ONCE we've achieved gravity control? And praytell, how
are we to control localized space-time curvature?
If I knew that, there would be no reason for anyone to research the matter. ;-)
Really, though, it -was- a speculative "once we have..." I know it seems to
imply that I'm certain we will find such a thing, my bad, but really, I'm quite
well aware that it may not in fact be possible.
You may have a false
idea that science progresses by proving new things to be possible.
That is often the case, but science also progresses by proving things
impossible. The theory of thermodynamics proved impossible the old
dream of creating a perpetual motion machine. But instead of lamenting
the impossibility of perpetual motion machines we can rejoice that the
newfold understanding of thermodynamics made it possible to conceive of
how to make a refrigerator. Einstein showed that the speed of light
cannot be exceeded by a massive object. But instead of lamenting the
impossibility of faster-than-light travel we can rejoice in the fact
that we now have nuclear bombs! (Well, I'll have to think about that
one.)
It's all just theory at this point, of course, but the theory of it all
is fascinating.
If you have genuine "theory" in the proper scientific meaning of the
word, I would be fascinated to hear it.
What I'm curious to know is if gravity control could be used to
alter some of the effects which go along with travelling at the velocity of
light. Could gravity be manipulated in such a way as to somehow "undilate" time
for the c traveller?
Quite the contrary. General relativity shows that gravity produces its
own time dilation that could augment time dilation do to velocity, but
certainly not reduce it.
Could it somehow be used to reduce the amount of fuel
needed to attain light speeds from "all the energy in the universe" to something
a bit more manageable - like, say, a star or two? Are any answers actually
known for this line of questioning?
Line of fantasizing is more appropriate.
But of course. How do you think we got to where we are today? By obsessing on
things as they are or things as they "might" be? Sometimes it takes us down a
dead end and sometimes it actually gets us somewhere. That anyone would seem to
insinuate that such a thing is in some way "inferior" or whatever, that's a
puzzle in itself. :-?
--
L8r,
Uncle Clover
************************************************
The true mark of a civilized society is that its
citizens know how to hate each other peacefully.
************************************************
.
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| User: "Mike" |
|
| Title: Re: OT: Physics q re: gravity control and light speed |
15 Oct 2006 03:17:00 AM |
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Uncle Clover wrote:
On 14 Oct 2006 23:48:23 -0700, "Mike" <matmzc@hofstra.edu> wrote:
Uncle Clover wrote:
When it comes to speculation about objects which somehow manage to
travel at or near the speed of light, we're well aware that some pretty strange
effects can be expected to occur. Time dilation, infinite mass, etc... etc...
etc....
Research is ongoing into methods of controlling gravity.
Beg pardon? What kind of research and where is it going on? You've
been reading too much science fiction rather than science exposition.
I don't think
we've actually made -any- real-world attempts, we're still very much at the
speculation & design stage.
We are still at the pure fantasy science fiction stage. Do you have a
link to provide that would substantiate your idea that any scientist
anywhere in the world is studying "methods to control gravity"?
Sure, try NASA:
http://www.nasa.gov/centers/glenn/research/warp/gravstat.html
Well, I'm surprised to see this on a NASA website. But notice that
they labled this in the low end of the "speculation" range. It would
require one hell of a breakthrough in fundamental physics to even get
started. The website seemed to imply that one could exploit the
not-yet-understood connection (if one exists) between electromagnetism
and gravity to somehow develop a drive. But unless one wants to repeal
the conservation of mass-energy law, one would have to input ENORMOUS
amounts of electromagnetic energy to do this (assuming the physical
universe allows the phenomenon).
One thing I'm fairly sure of is that once we've
achieved gravity control, the ability to make portholes and wormholes won't be
very long in following.
Did you say ONCE we've achieved gravity control? And praytell, how
are we to control localized space-time curvature?
If I knew that, there would be no reason for anyone to research the matter. ;-)
Really, though, it -was- a speculative "once we have..." I know it seems to
imply that I'm certain we will find such a thing, my bad, but really, I'm quite
well aware that it may not in fact be possible.
You may have a false
idea that science progresses by proving new things to be possible.
That is often the case, but science also progresses by proving things
impossible. The theory of thermodynamics proved impossible the old
dream of creating a perpetual motion machine. But instead of lamenting
the impossibility of perpetual motion machines we can rejoice that the
newfold understanding of thermodynamics made it possible to conceive of
how to make a refrigerator. Einstein showed that the speed of light
cannot be exceeded by a massive object. But instead of lamenting the
impossibility of faster-than-light travel we can rejoice in the fact
that we now have nuclear bombs! (Well, I'll have to think about that
one.)
It's all just theory at this point, of course, but the theory of it all
is fascinating.
If you have genuine "theory" in the proper scientific meaning of the
word, I would be fascinated to hear it.
What I'm curious to know is if gravity control could be used to
alter some of the effects which go along with travelling at the velocity of
light. Could gravity be manipulated in such a way as to somehow "undilate" time
for the c traveller?
Quite the contrary. General relativity shows that gravity produces its
own time dilation that could augment time dilation do to velocity, but
certainly not reduce it.
Could it somehow be used to reduce the amount of fuel
needed to attain light speeds from "all the energy in the universe" to something
a bit more manageable - like, say, a star or two? Are any answers actually
known for this line of questioning?
Line of fantasizing is more appropriate.
But of course. How do you think we got to where we are today? By obsessing on
things as they are or things as they "might" be? Sometimes it takes us down a
dead end and sometimes it actually gets us somewhere. That anyone would seem to
insinuate that such a thing is in some way "inferior" or whatever, that's a
puzzle in itself. :-?
--
L8r,
Uncle Clover
************************************************
The true mark of a civilized society is that its
citizens know how to hate each other peacefully.
************************************************
.
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