matts2@ix.netcom.com wrote in alt.atheism

Elroy Willis wrote:

Christopher A.Lee <calee@optonline.net> wrote in alt.atheism

<snip>

The use of nukes will upset even Americans.

Not enough to abandon support for Israel. There's too many religious
people in the country and government that will never abandon Israel,
since they think it's some holy land and tied in with the end of times
or Armageddon.

Jebus is comin' back to rule from the temple mount there, so we gotta
help protect it, no matter what, don't ya know?

Do you really think that "Jesus is coming back" is the only reason
people support Israel?

Of course not. I never said it was the only reason, did I?

Or do you simply let the Fundamentalists decide your personal views
and you oppose everything they support?

Not quite, but I do oppose quite a few things they support. I
actually support a few things they support as well, so we have a few
things in common.

In how many Middle Eastern countries do you think you can survive
as a public atheist? How many will let you stand on a street corner and
denounce the government? Etc.

Without you being stoned to death or killed on the spot? What do you
mean by "survive?"

matts2@ix.netcom.com wrote:

Elroy Willis wrote:

Christopher A.Lee <calee@optonline.net> wrote in alt.atheism

Elroy Willis <elroywillis@swbell.net> wrote:

Christopher A.Lee <calee@optonline.net> wrote in alt.atheism

Elroy Willis <elroywillis@swbell.net> wrote:

Christopher A.Lee <calee@optonline.net> wrote in alt.atheism

It was major international news at the time. As well as an act of war.
But being the local version of the international bully, with the
almost unconditional support of the world's international bully they
got away with it scot free.

Which countries actually supported them at the time? The show I
watched didn't get into that part of it.

If they use nukes this time they will become the international pariah.

I'm pretty sure the US would probably look the other way since so many
fundies insist on supporting Israel no matter what they do.

They looked the other way last time. But they won't be able to this
time.

Why not? What's to stop them?

The use of nukes will upset even Americans.

Not enough to abandon support for Israel. There's too many religious
people in the country and government that will never abandon Israel,
since they think it's some holy land and tied in with the end of times
or Armageddon.

Jebus is comin' back to rule from the temple mount there, so we gotta
help protect it, no matter what, don't ya know?

Do you really think that "Jesus is coming back" is the only reason
people support Israel?

Speaking as an American (should make that clear, since there are
non-Americans in this thread), I think there are several legitimate
reasons to support Israel, and several legitimate reasons to oppose it.

Israel is an ally (it gets some leeway for that reason); it is in a
strategically important part of the world; it has, roughly speaking, a
democracy; there are many American citizens who want it supported and
*we* have, roughly, a democracy; finally, there is some leeway from the
circumstances of its founding, when the Holocaust so shocked the
conscience that many nations decided to do something about the
stateless yet cohesive nature of Jews. (To the detriment, of course, of
the people who had a country there already. Why oh why couldn't we
have just given them Idaho instead?)

Further, their opponents do not make themselves look good. Terrorism is
a tactic of desperation in asymmetric warfare, but it still doesn't
endear you to anyone.

And just in terms of rhetoric, spewing hatred
against any ethnic group is dumb, but spewing hatred against Jews in a
world where there is still living memory of the Holocaust is enough to
make every ethical person respond with obloquy and outrage.

There are, on the other hand, reasons to oppose Israel; some criticisms
of Israel are important to make precisely because of the bad arguments
in its favor. For example: anyone who supports Israel right or wrong,
especially their military adventures, because of (in decreasing order
of awfulness) (a) eschatology, (b) racist discrimination against
Persians or Arabs, (c) racist discrimination in favor of Zionism, or
(d) cultural discrimination of Judaism over Islam -- those people need
to be shouted down (not shut up, never shut up, but shouted down.)

Also, Israel hasn't made herself look particularly good either.

There
are valid ethical justifiations for military responses to
state-sponsored terrorism; there is no ethical rationale for conquest
and nontemporary occupation of sovereign territory.

And let us not forget; there are elements of theocracy in the Israeli
nation and government -- no stronger, perhaps, than here, but present
nonetheless.

I despise theocracy, whether Jewish, Christian, or
Muslim.

There's also, partly because of the religious and cultural
elements, a disproprotionate passion among some groups in the US (both
Christian and Jewish) that Israel must be supported more uncritically
than our own nation is. Knee-jerk politics serves no one well.

One day Israel's enemies will have nuclear bombs, whether Iran's
current ambitions are slowed or not. Detente is not one political
position; it is a prerequisite to survival. Everyone in the Middle
East has long memories; everyone there has a ton of slights to revisit
from the past; everyone has a different idea where to draw boundaries;
but everyone there has to live together or die together. Eventually
they'll do one or the other.

As an American, my interest is in minimizing American damage and
international fallout while the Middle East tries to figure out which
one of those it's going to do. It of course complicates matters that
this is the place of the (if not birth than at least) conception of
western civilization (and thus the holy land to two of the world's four
most prominent and influential religions, as well as most of the
adherents of one of them), and the ground under many of Israel's
enemies contains most of the world's deposits of a fluid mineral that
we run the world's technology on.

To make at least some reference to the topic of the thread: everyone
with nukes has plans to nuke everybody else. The question, which I
haven't seen addressed, is just how far along these Iran plans were.

On 8 Jan 2007 08:14:35 -0800,

Do you really think that "Jesus is coming back" is the only reason
people support Israel?

That is the original reason for forming the state, to bring on the end times.

On 8 Jan 2007 08:14:35 -0800,

Do you really think that "Jesus is coming back" is the only reason
people support Israel?

That is the original reason for forming the state, to bring on the end times.

Elroy Willis wrote:

Elroy Willis wrote:

<snip>

What did the US do when they found out Israel was developing nuclear
weapons of mass destruction?

Kind of a difficult question to answer. First, the term "weapons of
mass destruction" is a propaganda game developed by Shrub. Second,
it is not at all clear when the U.S. discovered that Israel had the
program.

They did a good job of keeping it a secret? Didn't the French help
Israel build its first nuclear plant? You'd think the US would've
caught wind of that.

The nuclear power program was public and, unlike Iran's, made obvious
sense.* It was the likely weapon's program that was not public. It is
possible that the U.S. knew or suspected, but we don't have evidence of
that.

*It is also possible that Iran is serious that they primarily want
nuclear power rather than a weapon. If so, and there is good evidence
for this as well, then we are in *bigger* trouble. We are running out
of oil and perhaps sooner rather than later. Some big (as in the
biggest in the world) oil fields have hit peak capacity recently. If
*Iran* has an oil shortage you can imagine what the rest of us will
experience. As scary as Iran with a nuke is, Iran with no oil is
scarier.