| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"Jim Warren" |
| Date: |
08 Dec 2003 03:45:36 PM |
| Object: |
O.T. Son has DUI please help |
I am not a catholic so I can not turn to a priest.
I am not protestant and can not seek the advice of a pastor.
I am not jewish so I can not go to a rabbi.
I am an atheist so I am turning to this community.
My son is an Electrical Engineer in Virginia. He works on circuit
boards all day and plays video games at night. He doesn't carouse.
He was speeding last Saturday night.
That was wrong. He knows it.
He drinks moderately with friends on Saturday night.
He watched a fight that ended early, finished his beer and left.
He was pulled over by the local police and blew a .9.
In Virginia a .8 is legal intoxicated.
He understands that drinking and driving are wrong. Usually he and his
friends have a designated driver.
From my understanding if you drink only one beer you will blow a 1.0.
He spent the night in jail, was photographed, finger printed, and his
crime was published in the paper.
He has learned his lesson.
Is there anyway we can keep this from becoming a permenant part of his
recorded? I live in Michigan.
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| User: "JTEM" |
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| Title: Re: O.T. Son has DUI please help |
08 Dec 2003 05:13:57 PM |
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"Jim Warren" <jmwarren@mail.msu.edu> wrote
Is there anyway we can keep this from becoming a
permenant part of his recorded?
If you're too cheap to higher a lawyer, all I can do is suggest
that you ask someone with expierence with this sort of thing.
George Bush, for example, could offer a wealth of advice.
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| User: "Jim Warren" |
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| Title: Re: O.T. Son has DUI please help |
08 Dec 2003 05:16:36 PM |
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On Mon, 8 Dec 2003 18:13:57 -0500, "JTEM" <jaytem@yahoo.com> wrote:
"Jim Warren" <jmwarren@mail.msu.edu> wrote
Is there anyway we can keep this from becoming a
permenant part of his recorded?
If you're too cheap to higher a lawyer, all I can do is suggest
that you ask someone with expierence with this sort of thing.
George Bush, for example, could offer a wealth of advice.
We do not know any lawyers in VA how do we find a competent one?
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| User: "Al Klein" |
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| Title: Re: O.T. Son has DUI please help |
08 Dec 2003 10:27:14 PM |
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On Mon, 08 Dec 2003 18:16:36 -0500, Jim Warren <jmwarren@mail.msu.edu>
posted in alt.atheism:
We do not know any lawyers in VA how do we find a competent one?
Contact a competent attorney in your home state who handles DWI cases.
He can handle getting a Virginia attorney for you. The cost to you
will be the same either way. Bottom line, though, is that there's no
way to get a DWI (or even DUI) conviction off your (or his) record.
--
"We should do unto others as we would want them to do unto us. If I were an unborn
fetus I would want others to use force to protect me, therefore using force against
abortionists is *justifiable homocide*."
- "Pro-Life" doctor killer and corpse Paul Hill
(random sig, produced by SigChanger)
rukbat at optonline dot net
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| User: "Rv Cloim" |
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| Title: Re: O.T. Son has DUI please help |
08 Dec 2003 05:44:52 PM |
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On Mon, 08 Dec 2003 18:16:36 -0500, Jim Warren wrote:
On Mon, 8 Dec 2003 18:13:57 -0500, "JTEM" <jaytem@yahoo.com> wrote:
"Jim Warren" <jmwarren@mail.msu.edu> wrote
Is there anyway we can keep this from becoming a
permenant part of his recorded?
If you're too cheap to higher a lawyer, all I can do is suggest
that you ask someone with expierence with this sort of thing.
George Bush, for example, could offer a wealth of advice.
We do not know any lawyers in VA how do we find a competent one?
There should be a state bar association that can give recommendations.
Alternatively ask one where *you live about how to find one in VA.
As far as what can be done, that all depends upon the jurisdiction, the
prosecutor and the judge. A lawyer is your best bet.
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| User: "Ron Baker" |
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| Title: Re: O.T. Son has DUI please help |
10 Dec 2003 12:49:38 AM |
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"Jim Warren" <jmwarren@mail.msu.edu> wrote in message
news:6gr9tvs94scb3el96qoo220fh1mlaanmq8@4ax.com...
<>
My son is an Electrical Engineer in Virginia.
So I'm guessing he is early 20s.
<>
He was pulled over by the local police and blew a .9.
In Virginia a .8 is legal intoxicated.
0.08, but we understand.
He understands that drinking and driving are wrong. Usually he and his
friends have a designated driver.
From my understanding if you drink only one beer you will blow a 1.0.
That is a scare story. One beer will not actually
raise you blood alcohol level that high.
If you gargle with Listerine you'll peg the meter
for the next 15 minutes.
Likewise if you siphon gas and get some in you mouth.
He spent the night in jail, was photographed, finger printed, and his
crime was published in the paper.
Bummer. He'll have to get over it.
He has learned his lesson.
He has learned the first part of the lesson.
Is there anyway we can keep this from becoming a permenant part of his
recorded? I live in Michigan.
Very unlikely unless you have some serious political
connections.
Your son will live. If he keeps his nose clean
the consequences can be minimal.
I was busted for marijuana 30 years ago.
I learned some then but not the whole lesson.
I actually quit the weed 5 years later.
My past hasn't prevented me from getting a
security clearance.
(But I didn't apply for that until more
than a decade after the incident.)
I have a friend (in another state now)
who is a basket case.
He has had 3 DUIs.
On his third they took his license away
for 7 years.
He didn't drive during that time because
he was facing serious jail time, but he
has remained an alky.
When I talk to him on the phone he is
barely coherent.
I am afraid he will drive drunk again and
take some innocents out.
If he is lucky he will die in such an incident.
The going rate for DUI representation was
about $1000 ten or so years ago.
It is unlikely that any lawyer can get your son off.
The lawyer's function will be show that you
are upstanding citizens enough to hire a lawyer
and support the legal system.
How big a town was you son caught in?
See if you can find a lawyer from a known family.
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| User: "John Popelish" |
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| Title: Re: O.T. Son has DUI please help |
10 Dec 2003 10:08:31 AM |
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Ron Baker wrote:
(snip)
If you gargle with Listerine you'll peg the meter
for the next 15 minutes.
Likewise if you siphon gas and get some in you mouth.
(ship)
Whatever you do, if you get pulled over, don't take a hit of Binaca
just to have fresh breath for the policeman.
--
John Popelish
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| User: "Mark K. Bilbo" |
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| Title: Re: O.T. Son has DUI please help |
09 Dec 2003 09:30:04 AM |
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And so upon Mon, 08 Dec 2003 16:45:36 -0500 didst Jim Warren speak thusly:
Is there anyway we can keep this from becoming a permenant part of his
recorded? I live in Michigan.
I don't see why you should "enable" his behavior. Part of growing up is
living with the consequences of your actions.
--
Mark K. Bilbo - a.a. #1423
EAC Department of Linguistic Subversion
http://nullusfides.blogspot.com/
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| User: "No 33 Secretary" |
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| Title: Re: O.T. Son has DUI please help |
08 Dec 2003 04:50:07 PM |
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Jim Warren <jmwarren@mail.msu.edu> wrote in
news:6gr9tvs94scb3el96qoo220fh1mlaanmq8@4ax.com:
I am not a catholic so I can not turn to a priest.
I am not protestant and can not seek the advice of a pastor.
I am not jewish so I can not go to a rabbi.
I am an atheist so I am turning to this community.
My son is an Electrical Engineer in Virginia. He works on circuit
boards all day and plays video games at night. He doesn't carouse.
He was speeding last Saturday night.
That was wrong. He knows it.
He drinks moderately with friends on Saturday night.
He watched a fight that ended early, finished his beer and left.
He was pulled over by the local police and blew a .9.
In Virginia a .8 is legal intoxicated.
He understands that drinking and driving are wrong. Usually he and his
friends have a designated driver.
From my understanding if you drink only one beer you will blow a 1.0.
*****. Takes several, at least, in a short period of time.
He spent the night in jail, was photographed, finger printed, and his
crime was published in the paper.
He has learned his lesson.
Is there anyway we can keep this from becoming a permenant part of his
recorded? I live in Michigan.
Hope the judge likes blowjobs?
--
Terry Austin
taustin@hyperbooks.com
www.hyperbooks.com
Roleplaying Stuff
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| User: "Enkidu" |
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| Title: Re: O.T. Son has DUI please help |
09 Dec 2003 08:24:20 AM |
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Jim Warren wrote:
I am not a catholic so I can not turn to a priest.
I am not protestant and can not seek the advice of a pastor.
I am not jewish so I can not go to a rabbi.
I am an atheist so I am turning to this community.
My son is an Electrical Engineer in Virginia. He works on circuit
boards all day and plays video games at night. He doesn't carouse.
He was speeding last Saturday night.
That was wrong. He knows it.
He drinks moderately with friends on Saturday night.
He watched a fight that ended early, finished his beer and left.
He was pulled over by the local police and blew a .9.
In Virginia a .8 is legal intoxicated.
He understands that drinking and driving are wrong. Usually he and his
friends have a designated driver.
From my understanding if you drink only one beer you will blow a 1.0.
He spent the night in jail, was photographed, finger printed, and his
crime was published in the paper.
He has learned his lesson.
Is there anyway we can keep this from becoming a permenant part of his
recorded? I live in Michigan.
Why would you want to? If he's learned his lesson, then there will be no
repeat, and nobody will care. Sadly, many drunk drivers learn their lesson
again and again and again, until somebody dies.
--
Enkidu
hhe1mxo02@sneakemail.com
PGP KeyID 0xC5FEABDF
-----
Of all things, good sense is the most fairly distributed: everyone
thinks he is so well supplied with it that even those who are the
hardest to satisfy in every other respect never desire more of it than
they already have.
René Descartes, Discours de la Méthode. 1637.
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| User: "Gregory Gadow" |
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| Title: Re: O.T. Son has DUI please help |
08 Dec 2003 04:21:33 PM |
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Jim Warren wrote:
I am not a catholic so I can not turn to a priest.
I am not protestant and can not seek the advice of a pastor.
I am not jewish so I can not go to a rabbi.
I am an atheist so I am turning to this community.
My son is an Electrical Engineer in Virginia. He works on circuit
boards all day and plays video games at night. He doesn't carouse.
He was speeding last Saturday night.
That was wrong. He knows it.
He drinks moderately with friends on Saturday night.
He watched a fight that ended early, finished his beer and left.
He was pulled over by the local police and blew a .9.
In Virginia a .8 is legal intoxicated.
He understands that drinking and driving are wrong. Usually he and his
friends have a designated driver.
From my understanding if you drink only one beer you will blow a 1.0.
The numbers represent a percentage of alcohol in the bloodstream. I
believe that your figures are off by a magnitude of ten; 0.08 (that is to
say, a blood alcohol level of 0.08%) is the legal limit in most states.
People vary widely in how they react, but the average person of average
weight will need about three servings of alcohol to become legally
intoxicated. One serving is roughly the equivalent to an 8oz beer, a 4oz
glass of wine or a 1oz shot of the hard stuff. A single serving is enough
to impare your judgement, balance and senses, however.
He spent the night in jail, was photographed, finger printed, and his
crime was published in the paper.
He has learned his lesson.
Is there anyway we can keep this from becoming a permenant part of his
recorded? I live in Michigan.
Probably not. Many states have increasing penalties for repeat offenders;
the police record will show that pattern. Too many drunk driving incidents
in too small a time frame will likely result in a suspended license. Also,
insurance companies will greatly increase the premiums for anyone with a
drunk driving conviction, as they are at significantly higher risk for
being in traffic accidents. Even if his DMV record gets cleaned, his
insurance company is not likely to be so forgiving (and yes, you can bet
that his carrier has already been notified.)
I don't mean to sound harsh, but if your son knows that what he did was
wrong and has learned his lesson, he should be willing to accept the
penalty of his mistakes. Hopefully (and this is the whole point of all the
penalties), he really *has* learned his lesson and won't ever drive drunk
again.
--
Gregory Gadow
techbear@serv.net
http://www.serv.net/~techbear
"If you make yourself a sheep, the wolves will eat you."
-- Benjamin Franklin
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| User: "Orhan Orgun" |
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| Title: Re: O.T. Son has DUI please help |
09 Dec 2003 08:27:42 PM |
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On Mon, 08 Dec 2003 14:21:33 -0800, Gregory Gadow <techbear@serv.net>
wrote:
Even if his DMV record gets cleaned, his
insurance company is not likely to be so forgiving (and yes, you can bet
that his carrier has already been notified.)
This is true. Once his DMV record is clean (3 to 7 years, depending on
the state, I believe), he can buy insurance from a new company.
Insurance companies are not supposed to keep charging you extra once
your DMV record stops showing your DUI--that's the whole point of
cleaning the record--but many do.
Other than that, I concur with the other posters. He should live with
the consequences. Learning a lesson doesn't apply if there are no
consequences. He (and you) should be glad you don't live in Norway,
where I understand the penalty for even a first time DUI is
proportional to your total net worth and they make sure it hurts bad.
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| User: "Jim Warren" |
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| Title: Re: O.T. Son has DUI please help |
09 Dec 2003 09:57:17 PM |
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On Tue, 09 Dec 2003 18:27:42 -0800, Orhan Orgun
<orhanorgun@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
On Mon, 08 Dec 2003 14:21:33 -0800, Gregory Gadow <techbear@serv.net>
wrote:
Even if his DMV record gets cleaned, his
insurance company is not likely to be so forgiving (and yes, you can bet
that his carrier has already been notified.)
This is true. Once his DMV record is clean (3 to 7 years, depending on
the state, I believe), he can buy insurance from a new company.
Insurance companies are not supposed to keep charging you extra once
your DMV record stops showing your DUI--that's the whole point of
cleaning the record--but many do.
Other than that, I concur with the other posters. He should live with
the consequences. Learning a lesson doesn't apply if there are no
consequences. He (and you) should be glad you don't live in Norway,
where I understand the penalty for even a first time DUI is
proportional to your total net worth and they make sure it hurts bad.
I don't want him to go unpunished! Especially after I found out it
was six beers in 1 hour that gave him the blood alcohol of .09.
What I don't want is a life time of him living with the scarlet DUI.
He is a good moral peron.
If he does it again will be shocked.
I quit drinking about twenty years ago when I noticed that I was
drinking in an attempt to have fun. I looked around the bar and it
appeared that everyone was attempting to have fun by drinking.
I now figure out what is actually fun and do it without Alcohol.
That isn't real coherent but I can't really describe the feeling.
I really appreciate the help and advice I have received from this
forum. This was very devestating. He has never been in any kind of
trouble before.
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| User: "Douglas Berry" |
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| Title: Re: O.T. Son has DUI please help |
10 Dec 2003 02:08:36 AM |
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Lo, many moons past, on Tue, 09 Dec 2003 22:57:17 -0500, a stranger
called by some Jim Warren <jmwarren@mail.msu.edu> came forth and told
this tale in alt.atheism
I don't want him to go unpunished! Especially after I found out it
was six beers in 1 hour that gave him the blood alcohol of .09.
You don't understand.. after going to a funeral of a girl I really
loved after a seven-time drunk snashed into her car one night, I do
want him punished. Drunk driving kills people. It destroys lives.
And if it costs your sone several thousand dollars, a year of taking
the bus to work, and sky-high insurance rates to pound in that point
to him and his friends, so be it!
What I don't want is a life time of him living with the scarlet DUI.
He is a good moral peron.
Then why did he drink seven beers in four hours and drive?
If he does it again will be shocked.
If he does it again and somebody dies, what we you say to the
survivors?
I quit drinking about twenty years ago when I noticed that I was
drinking in an attempt to have fun. I looked around the bar and it
appeared that everyone was attempting to have fun by drinking.
I now figure out what is actually fun and do it without Alcohol.
Good for you. Your son is getting a much harsher lesson.
--
Douglas Berry Do the OBVIOUS thing to send e-mail
Atheist #2147, Atheist Vet #5
Ezekiel 13:20 "Wherefore thus saith the
Lord GOD; Behold, I am against your pillows"
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| User: "Jim Warren" |
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| Title: Re: O.T. Son has DUI please help |
10 Dec 2003 07:35:38 AM |
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On Wed, 10 Dec 2003 08:08:36 GMT, Douglas Berry
<penguin_boy@mindOBVIOUSspring.com> wrote:
Lo, many moons past, on Tue, 09 Dec 2003 22:57:17 -0500, a stranger
called by some Jim Warren <jmwarren@mail.msu.edu> came forth and told
this tale in alt.atheism
I don't want him to go unpunished! Especially after I found out it
was six beers in 1 hour that gave him the blood alcohol of .09.
You don't understand.. after going to a funeral of a girl I really
loved after a seven-time drunk snashed into her car one night, I do
want him punished. Drunk driving kills people. It destroys lives.
And if it costs your sone several thousand dollars, a year of taking
the bus to work, and sky-high insurance rates to pound in that point
to him and his friends, so be it!
What I don't want is a life time of him living with the scarlet DUI.
He is a good moral peron.
Then why did he drink seven beers in four hours and drive?
If he does it again will be shocked.
If he does it again and somebody dies, what we you say to the
survivors?
I quit drinking about twenty years ago when I noticed that I was
drinking in an attempt to have fun. I looked around the bar and it
appeared that everyone was attempting to have fun by drinking.
I now figure out what is actually fun and do it without Alcohol.
Good for you. Your son is getting a much harsher lesson.
I am an atheist I seek truth and fairplay.
Christians, Jews and Muslims seek justice.
I do not know you and you do not know my son.
You seek justice.
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| User: "Robibnikoff" |
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| Title: Re: O.T. Son has DUI please help |
10 Dec 2003 08:33:58 AM |
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In article <g58etvcu7nlcqg8nvbq8gfenot964khpok@4ax.com>, Jim Warren says...
On Wed, 10 Dec 2003 08:08:36 GMT, Douglas Berry
<penguin_boy@mindOBVIOUSspring.com> wrote:
Lo, many moons past, on Tue, 09 Dec 2003 22:57:17 -0500, a stranger
called by some Jim Warren <jmwarren@mail.msu.edu> came forth and told
this tale in alt.atheism
I don't want him to go unpunished! Especially after I found out it
was six beers in 1 hour that gave him the blood alcohol of .09.
You don't understand.. after going to a funeral of a girl I really
loved after a seven-time drunk snashed into her car one night, I do
want him punished. Drunk driving kills people. It destroys lives.
And if it costs your sone several thousand dollars, a year of taking
the bus to work, and sky-high insurance rates to pound in that point
to him and his friends, so be it!
What I don't want is a life time of him living with the scarlet DUI.
He is a good moral peron.
Then why did he drink seven beers in four hours and drive?
If he does it again will be shocked.
If he does it again and somebody dies, what we you say to the
survivors?
I quit drinking about twenty years ago when I noticed that I was
drinking in an attempt to have fun. I looked around the bar and it
appeared that everyone was attempting to have fun by drinking.
I now figure out what is actually fun and do it without Alcohol.
Good for you. Your son is getting a much harsher lesson.
I am an atheist I seek truth and fairplay.
Christians, Jews and Muslims seek justice.
I do not know you and you do not know my son.
You seek justice.
Personally, I think the bottom line is that your son broke the law and now has
to pay the price. There are a lot worse things in the world than having a DUI on
one's record - Like killing someone while driving drunk, for instance.
I think both you and your son should grow up and face reality. Be thankful that
something worse didn't happen.
Robyn
Resident Witchypoo & EAC Spellcaster
#1557
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| User: "Enkidu" |
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| Title: Re: O.T. Son has DUI please help |
10 Dec 2003 08:28:23 AM |
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Jim Warren wrote:
On Wed, 10 Dec 2003 08:08:36 GMT, Douglas Berry
<penguin_boy@mindOBVIOUSspring.com> wrote:
Lo, many moons past, on Tue, 09 Dec 2003 22:57:17 -0500, a stranger
called by some Jim Warren <jmwarren@mail.msu.edu> came forth and
told this tale in alt.atheism
I don't want him to go unpunished! Especially after I found out it
was six beers in 1 hour that gave him the blood alcohol of .09.
You don't understand.. after going to a funeral of a girl I really
loved after a seven-time drunk snashed into her car one night, I do
want him punished. Drunk driving kills people. It destroys lives.
And if it costs your sone several thousand dollars, a year of taking
the bus to work, and sky-high insurance rates to pound in that point
to him and his friends, so be it!
What I don't want is a life time of him living with the scarlet DUI.
He is a good moral peron.
Then why did he drink seven beers in four hours and drive?
If he does it again will be shocked.
If he does it again and somebody dies, what we you say to the
survivors?
I quit drinking about twenty years ago when I noticed that I was
drinking in an attempt to have fun. I looked around the bar and it
appeared that everyone was attempting to have fun by drinking.
I now figure out what is actually fun and do it without Alcohol.
Good for you. Your son is getting a much harsher lesson.
I am an atheist I seek truth and fairplay.
Christians, Jews and Muslims seek justice.
I do not know you and you do not know my son.
You seek justice.
No, he seeks a long, happy, healthy life for his family and friends. Drunk
drivers threaten all that. He wishes to hit your son with a big enough
stick to insure he never does this again. And ask yourself, "Is this really
the first time he's done this, or only the first time he's been caught?"
--
Enkidu
hhe1mxo02@sneakemail.com
PGP KeyID 0xC5FEABDF
-----
Of all things, good sense is the most fairly distributed: everyone
thinks he is so well supplied with it that even those who are the
hardest to satisfy in every other respect never desire more of it than
they already have.
René Descartes, Discours de la Méthode. 1637.
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| User: "lizzard woman" |
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| Title: Re: O.T. Son has DUI please help |
10 Dec 2003 08:56:12 AM |
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"Enkidu" <hhe1mxo02@sneakemail.com> wrote in message
news:W3GBb.19342$yf.14207@fed1read01...
Jim Warren wrote:
I am an atheist I seek truth and fairplay.
Christians, Jews and Muslims seek justice.
I do not know you and you do not know my son.
You seek justice.
No, he seeks a long, happy, healthy life for his family and friends.
Drunk
drivers threaten all that. He wishes to hit your son with a big enough
stick to insure he never does this again. And ask yourself, "Is this
really
the first time he's done this, or only the first time he's been caught?"
That last question is of course a key one.
Jim, when you say you seek truth and fairplay, it sounds like you have it in
your mind that others get off with lesser punishments than your son is faced
with and you want the same for him. That's a normal reaction for a father
and its probably the case that there is some plasticity in how thee cases
are handled depending on any number of things. But really, if your son does
somehow get some lesser punishment, what's that going to do? It might
embolden him to think he can risk it again.
The obvious problem is that the more you drink, the less you can access your
good reasoning ability. A harsher punishment now could save him immense
grief down the road.
Just my spit in the wind...
--
sharon, aa #2153
"(of creationism) ... Only apocryphal tales told by goat herders around the
campfire after it became too dark to continue to molest their charges." --
TvG (Rec.Equestrian, 2003)
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| User: "Jim Warren" |
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| Title: Re: O.T. Son has DUI please help |
10 Dec 2003 12:06:14 PM |
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On Wed, 10 Dec 2003 14:56:12 GMT, "lizzard woman" <kimosabe@shaw.ca>
wrote:
"Enkidu" <hhe1mxo02@sneakemail.com> wrote in message
news:W3GBb.19342$yf.14207@fed1read01...
Jim Warren wrote:
I am an atheist I seek truth and fairplay.
Christians, Jews and Muslims seek justice.
I do not know you and you do not know my son.
You seek justice.
No, he seeks a long, happy, healthy life for his family and friends.
Drunk
drivers threaten all that. He wishes to hit your son with a big enough
stick to insure he never does this again. And ask yourself, "Is this
really
the first time he's done this, or only the first time he's been caught?"
That last question is of course a key one.
Jim, when you say you seek truth and fairplay, it sounds like you have it in
your mind that others get off with lesser punishments than your son is faced
with and you want the same for him. That's a normal reaction for a father
and its probably the case that there is some plasticity in how thee cases
are handled depending on any number of things. But really, if your son does
somehow get some lesser punishment, what's that going to do? It might
embolden him to think he can risk it again.
The obvious problem is that the more you drink, the less you can access your
good reasoning ability. A harsher punishment now could save him immense
grief down the road.
Just my spit in the wind...
Hi Sharon,
I agree and in no way condone his behavior or anyone who drinks or
drives. But he is my concern and my main concern is that he is treated
fairly.
I will be happy if he gets what he deserves.
Not from the Vox Pox but from the legal system.
I of course, as his father, want this to be scrupulously fair.
He is scared straight.
If he ever does this again, I will take the advice of the more
stringent responders.
I have never been in a criminal action and do not know anyone who has.
I have been in some civil litigations and have met some very honest
and competent lawyers. Sometimes they were on my side.
In one case I was the defendant and the plaintiff was vindictive
towards me. They made a real show of hiring the best numero uno lawyer
to sue me. They were paying 400.00 and hour and I was duly impressed.
I thought this guy would get up and quote scholarly law and use
impeccable logic.
This guy got up and without actually addressing the issue, started to
state the nastiest cheap shots directed at me personally.
The judge in language couched in legalize showed contempt for this
attorney. Called the plaintiff a liar and we won hands down without
saying a word.
I asked my attorney why if he was the greatest attorney in town would
he behave like that. She said that he was doing the best for his
client. That's what all attorneys do for their client and there was
nothing he did to warrant criticism
I then asked her what the difference between fair and just was.
She did not have to ponder this. She said courts strive for fairness
and if fairness is not possible justice is rendered.
I want my son to receive fairness not justice.
The idea that my son or I consider DUI not that big of a deal is
ridiculous. This is the worst thing that has happened to us.
I have contacted my lawyer and have been given good advice. My son has
narrowed his choice of lawyers to two local lawyers. He will be
arraigned Friday.
I did not want to debate DUI, I just wanted my son to be able to
defend himself as best he could. Which is everyone's right.
I am truly sorry for anyone's loss to a drunk driver and am very
thankful that my son did not harm himself or anyone else.
He is my son and I truly love him and will stand by him in his time of
trouble.
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| User: "lizzard woman" |
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| Title: Re: O.T. Son has DUI please help |
10 Dec 2003 01:11:09 PM |
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"Jim Warren" <jmwarren@mail.msu.edu> wrote in message
news:lhmetvsjnukcdq6q7asbpn5tsqgpv3eggh@4ax.com...
I agree and in no way condone his behavior or anyone who drinks or
drives. But he is my concern and my main concern is that he is treated
fairly.
I guess I don't understand why you think he will not be treated fairly.
What unfair treatment to do foresee?
By the way, you sound like a very caring father, very much like my own.
--
sharon, aa #2153
"(of creationism) ... Only apocryphal tales told by goat herders around the
campfire after it became too dark to continue to molest their charges." --
TvG (Rec.Equestrian, 2003)
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| User: "Jim Warren" |
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| Title: Re: O.T. Son has DUI please help |
10 Dec 2003 03:31:38 PM |
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On Wed, 10 Dec 2003 19:11:09 GMT, "lizzard woman" <kimosabe@shaw.ca>
wrote:
"Jim Warren" <jmwarren@mail.msu.edu> wrote in message
news:lhmetvsjnukcdq6q7asbpn5tsqgpv3eggh@4ax.com...
I agree and in no way condone his behavior or anyone who drinks or
drives. But he is my concern and my main concern is that he is treated
fairly.
I guess I don't understand why you think he will not be treated fairly.
What unfair treatment to do foresee?
By the way, you sound like a very caring father, very much like my own.
Probably from watching too many "Duke's of Hazards" episodes. Everyone
has their favorite small town southern justice stories and I am sure
that southerners have there share of northern justice stories.
Justice if you will costs money and picking the correct attorney and
getting the right judge on the right day..
A society can let its upper classes and lower classes do what ever
they want, but they must control their middle class.
I think middle class people when they mess up are treated more harshly
than the rich or poor.
I was horrified when my son said he spent the night in jail. I asked
what kind of people were in the jail and he said that all of them were
either engineers like himself or technicians. No upper or lower class.
I realized that I can not draw a valid conclusion from the fact that
everyone in the cell was middle class, but it gives me an uneasy
feeling as does his yankee accent in a souther court.
Anyway I have gone through all my phases. Denial, anger and the others
and I can get on with my life.
I am very grateful that there were so many reasoned responses.
Thank you from the bottom of my heart.
Thanks
Jim
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| User: "Douglas Berry" |
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| Title: Re: O.T. Son has DUI please help |
10 Dec 2003 07:03:19 PM |
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Lo, many moons past, on Wed, 10 Dec 2003 16:31:38 -0500, a stranger
called by some Jim Warren <jmwarren@mail.msu.edu> came forth and told
this tale in alt.atheism
I was horrified when my son said he spent the night in jail. I asked
what kind of people were in the jail and he said that all of them were
either engineers like himself or technicians. No upper or lower class.
That's where people under arrest go, sir. Why are you so horrified?
Would you have prefered the cops let him drive off?
I realized that I can not draw a valid conclusion from the fact that
everyone in the cell was middle class, but it gives me an uneasy
feeling as does his yankee accent in a souther court.
In Virginia? LOL! Depending on what part of the Commonwealth he's
in, his accent may be unoticable. And if he lives there, he might be
devloping a twang of his own.
--
Douglas Berry Do the OBVIOUS thing to send e-mail
Atheist #2147, Atheist Vet #5
Ezekiel 13:20 "Wherefore thus saith the
Lord GOD; Behold, I am against your pillows"
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| User: "Douglas Berry" |
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| Title: Re: O.T. Son has DUI please help |
10 Dec 2003 12:12:44 PM |
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Lo, many moons past, on Wed, 10 Dec 2003 08:35:38 -0500, a stranger
called by some Jim Warren <jmwarren@mail.msu.edu> came forth and told
this tale in alt.atheism
I am an atheist I seek truth and fairplay.
Christians, Jews and Muslims seek justice.
I do not know you and you do not know my son.
You seek justice.
OK, your son violated the laws of Virginia. The truth is he should
pay the proce and you shopuld stop complaining about it.
Oh, and where the hell do you get the idea that atheists don't seek
justice? After seeing first hand what drunks do, I think he should be
taking the bus to work for a year.
--
Douglas Berry Do the OBVIOUS thing to send e-mail
Atheist #2147, Atheist Vet #5
Ezekiel 13:20 "Wherefore thus saith the
Lord GOD; Behold, I am against your pillows"
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| User: "Jim Warren" |
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| Title: Re: O.T. Son has DUI please help |
10 Dec 2003 03:41:15 PM |
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On Wed, 10 Dec 2003 18:12:44 GMT, Douglas Berry
<penguin_boy@mindOBVIOUSspring.com> wrote:
Lo, many moons past, on Wed, 10 Dec 2003 08:35:38 -0500, a stranger
called by some Jim Warren <jmwarren@mail.msu.edu> came forth and told
this tale in alt.atheism
I am an atheist I seek truth and fairplay.
Christians, Jews and Muslims seek justice.
I do not know you and you do not know my son.
You seek justice.
OK, your son violated the laws of Virginia. The truth is he should
pay the proce and you shopuld stop complaining about it.
Oh, and where the hell do you get the idea that atheists don't seek
justice? After seeing first hand what drunks do, I think he should be
taking the bus to work for a year.
I think justice is religious dogma.
An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.
How do you define justice?
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| User: "Douglas Berry" |
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| Title: Re: O.T. Son has DUI please help |
10 Dec 2003 07:00:46 PM |
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Lo, many moons past, on Wed, 10 Dec 2003 16:41:15 -0500, a stranger
called by some Jim Warren <jmwarren@mail.msu.edu> came forth and told
this tale in alt.atheism
On Wed, 10 Dec 2003 18:12:44 GMT, Douglas Berry
<penguin_boy@mindOBVIOUSspring.com> wrote:
OK, your son violated the laws of Virginia. The truth is he should
pay the proce and you shopuld stop complaining about it.
Oh, and where the hell do you get the idea that atheists don't seek
justice? After seeing first hand what drunks do, I think he should be
taking the bus to work for a year.
I think justice is religious dogma.
An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.
How do you define justice?
Appropriate punishment for the offense, and inusring that the right
person is punished.
In this case, your son violated the drunk driving law. He should pay
a fine, and have his license suspended for the prescribed time. If he
does it again, the punishments should increase in severity.
--
Douglas Berry Do the OBVIOUS thing to send e-mail
Atheist #2147, Atheist Vet #5
Ezekiel 13:20 "Wherefore thus saith the
Lord GOD; Behold, I am against your pillows"
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| User: "Jim Warren" |
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| Title: Re: O.T. Son has DUI please help |
10 Dec 2003 07:56:45 PM |
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On Thu, 11 Dec 2003 01:00:46 GMT, Douglas Berry
<penguin_boy@mindOBVIOUSspring.com> wrote:
Lo, many moons past, on Wed, 10 Dec 2003 16:41:15 -0500, a stranger
called by some Jim Warren <jmwarren@mail.msu.edu> came forth and told
this tale in alt.atheism
On Wed, 10 Dec 2003 18:12:44 GMT, Douglas Berry
<penguin_boy@mindOBVIOUSspring.com> wrote:
OK, your son violated the laws of Virginia. The truth is he should
pay the proce and you shopuld stop complaining about it.
Oh, and where the hell do you get the idea that atheists don't seek
justice? After seeing first hand what drunks do, I think he should be
taking the bus to work for a year.
I think justice is religious dogma.
An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.
How do you define justice?
Appropriate punishment for the offense, and inusring that the right
person is punished.
In this case, your son violated the drunk driving law. He should pay
a fine, and have his license suspended for the prescribed time. If he
does it again, the punishments should increase in severity.
Appropriate punishment would be welcomed.
Where does the appropriate punishment come from?
Laws.
What are these laws based on in the common wealth of Virginia?
More than likely the bible.
Whether either one of us like it or not he will have his day in
court. My job as a parent is to see that it is as fair and just as
possible.
Thanks
Jim
Atheist viet nam combat infantry unnumbered as of yet.
1968-1969 the fun years
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| User: "Douglas Berry" |
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| Title: Re: O.T. Son has DUI please help |
11 Dec 2003 10:20:46 AM |
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Lo, many moons past, on Wed, 10 Dec 2003 20:56:45 -0500, a stranger
called by some Jim Warren <jmwarren@mail.msu.edu> came forth and told
this tale in alt.atheism
On Thu, 11 Dec 2003 01:00:46 GMT, Douglas Berry
<penguin_boy@mindOBVIOUSspring.com> wrote:
Lo, many moons past, on Wed, 10 Dec 2003 16:41:15 -0500, a stranger
called by some Jim Warren <jmwarren@mail.msu.edu> came forth and told
this tale in alt.atheism
On Wed, 10 Dec 2003 18:12:44 GMT, Douglas Berry
<penguin_boy@mindOBVIOUSspring.com> wrote:
OK, your son violated the laws of Virginia. The truth is he should
pay the proce and you shopuld stop complaining about it.
Oh, and where the hell do you get the idea that atheists don't seek
justice? After seeing first hand what drunks do, I think he should be
taking the bus to work for a year.
I think justice is religious dogma.
An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.
How do you define justice?
Appropriate punishment for the offense, and inusring that the right
person is punished.
In this case, your son violated the drunk driving law. He should pay
a fine, and have his license suspended for the prescribed time. If he
does it again, the punishments should increase in severity.
Appropriate punishment would be welcomed.
Where does the appropriate punishment come from?
Laws.
What are these laws based on in the common wealth of Virginia?
More than likely the bible.
Ever spent a day in Virginia? They've reached the 21st Century, just
like the rest opf the nation.
You can also do research, this took three minutes on Google.
From
http://www.virginiadrunkdrivinglawyers.com/frequentlyAskedQuestions.cfm
"10. Q: What are the penalties for driving while under the influence?
A: Drunk driving penalties have become very severe in the past few
years. For a first offense, the maximum possible penalties the court
could impose are:
* (1) 6 months in the county jail:
* (2) $1,000 fine plus up to an additional $1,950 in penalty
assessments;
* (3) 6 months driver's license suspension;
* (4) Your car impounded for 30 days.
Second, third and fourth offenses within 7 years are punished by
increasingly more harsh penalties. For third and fourth convictions,
your license must be revoked for 3 and 4 years respectively. A fourth
offense can even be prosecuted against you as a felony carrying a
maximum term of 3 years in state prison along with your car being
ordered sold and the proceeds going to the state. In addition to all
of the above penalties, the price of auto insurance increases
drastically after any conviction for a driving under the influence
offense. The bottom line legal and practical advice to draw from all
of all of the above is very clear:
IT IS NEVER WORTH IT TO DRINK AND DRIVE."
So, that's the maximum. Since you say your son has never been in
trouble before, his best bet is to own up, admit he made a stupid,
potentionally fatal mistake, and through himself on the mercy of the
court. Considering the overcrowded nature of most county jails, I
doubt he'll spend another night behind bars. (He might get time, but
it will be suspended.)
Far more likely he'll get (2) and (3) levied on him. He'll take a
hit in the bank account and his ***** will be on the bus, but hopefully
he'll learn his lesson.
Oh, and there's nothing Biblical about those laws that I can see.
Whether either one of us like it or not he will have his day in
court. My job as a parent is to see that it is as fair and just as
possible.
He's an adult. It's his job to face the music.
--
Douglas Berry Do the OBVIOUS thing to send e-mail
Atheist #2147, Atheist Vet #5
Ezekiel 13:20 "Wherefore thus saith the
Lord GOD; Behold, I am against your pillows"
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| User: "Jim Warren" |
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| Title: Re: O.T. Son has DUI please help |
11 Dec 2003 07:00:18 PM |
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Ever spent a day in Virginia? They've reached the 21st Century, just
like the rest opf the nation.
You can also do research, this took three minutes on Google.
From
http://www.virginiadrunkdrivinglawyers.com/frequentlyAskedQuestions.cfm
"10. Q: What are the penalties for driving while under the influence?
A: Drunk driving penalties have become very severe in the past few
years. For a first offense, the maximum possible penalties the court
could impose are:
* (1) 6 months in the county jail:
* (2) $1,000 fine plus up to an additional $1,950 in penalty
assessments;
* (3) 6 months driver's license suspension;
* (4) Your car impounded for 30 days.
Second, third and fourth offenses within 7 years are punished by
increasingly more harsh penalties. For third and fourth convictions,
your license must be revoked for 3 and 4 years respectively. A fourth
offense can even be prosecuted against you as a felony carrying a
maximum term of 3 years in state prison along with your car being
ordered sold and the proceeds going to the state. In addition to all
of the above penalties, the price of auto insurance increases
drastically after any conviction for a driving under the influence
offense. The bottom line legal and practical advice to draw from all
of all of the above is very clear:
IT IS NEVER WORTH IT TO DRINK AND DRIVE."
So, that's the maximum. Since you say your son has never been in
trouble before, his best bet is to own up, admit he made a stupid,
potentionally fatal mistake, and through himself on the mercy of the
court. Considering the overcrowded nature of most county jails, I
doubt he'll spend another night behind bars. (He might get time, but
it will be suspended.)
Far more likely he'll get (2) and (3) levied on him. He'll take a
hit in the bank account and his ***** will be on the bus, but hopefully
he'll learn his lesson.
Oh, and there's nothing Biblical about those laws that I can see.
I haven't read the bible in four decades. But I think I remember
Gluttony, Sloth, Drunkenness etc.
Whether either one of us like it or not he will have his day in
court. My job as a parent is to see that it is as fair and just as
possible.
He's an adult. It's his job to face the music.
As he is an adult, he is entitle to the same rights as anyone else.
If I didn't agree totally with MADD I would join DAMM (Drunks against
Mad Mothers)
Spent a week in Virginia.
The town I was in was half Corporate and Half Antebellum.
The people were extremely friendly. I wouldn't mind living there.
Even with Karoke.
The three lawyers that he contacted said that there was no way he
needed a lawyer. In that particular county (not the one he lives in)
DUI is theire main source of revenue for that county.
No justice, just a turnstile. You pays your money and you loose your
license. It appears that the fine will be much lower than you had
hoped, but the length of the loss of license will cheer you up.
Thanks for your interest
Have an interesting life.
.
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| User: "Douglas Berry" |
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| Title: Re: O.T. Son has DUI please help |
12 Dec 2003 12:19:01 PM |
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Lo, many moons past, on Thu, 11 Dec 2003 20:00:18 -0500, a stranger
called by some Jim Warren <jmwarren@mail.msu.edu> came forth and told
this tale in alt.atheism
Oh, and there's nothing Biblical about those laws that I can see.
I haven't read the bible in four decades. But I think I remember
Gluttony, Sloth, Drunkenness etc.
Amazing. So since the bible mentions drunkeness, all DUI laws are
Biblically based? Odd, I would prefer Dionysian-based drunkeness
laws.
He's an adult. It's his job to face the music.
As he is an adult, he is entitle to the same rights as anyone else.
If I didn't agree totally with MADD I would join DAMM (Drunks against
Mad Mothers)
Yup. And he has them.
The three lawyers that he contacted said that there was no way he
needed a lawyer. In that particular county (not the one he lives in)
DUI is theire main source of revenue for that county.
What county is this?
No justice, just a turnstile. You pays your money and you loose your
license. It appears that the fine will be much lower than you had
hoped, but the length of the loss of license will cheer you up.
Well, then it appears that he shouldn't have driven drunk in the dirst
place!
--
Douglas Berry Do the OBVIOUS thing to send e-mail
Atheist #2147, Atheist Vet #5
Ezekiel 13:20 "Wherefore thus saith the
Lord GOD; Behold, I am against your pillows"
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| User: "Jim Warren" |
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| Title: Re: O.T. Son has DUI please help |
12 Dec 2003 04:55:44 PM |
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On Fri, 12 Dec 2003 18:19:01 GMT, Douglas Berry
<penguin_boy@mindOBVIOUSspring.com> wrote:
Lo, many moons past, on Thu, 11 Dec 2003 20:00:18 -0500, a stranger
called by some Jim Warren <jmwarren@mail.msu.edu> came forth and told
this tale in alt.atheism
Oh, and there's nothing Biblical about those laws that I can see.
I haven't read the bible in four decades. But I think I remember
Gluttony, Sloth, Drunkenness etc.
Amazing. So since the bible mentions drunkeness, all DUI laws are
Biblically based? Odd, I would prefer Dionysian-based drunkeness
laws.
He's an adult. It's his job to face the music.
As he is an adult, he is entitle to the same rights as anyone else.
If I didn't agree totally with MADD I would join DAMM (Drunks against
Mad Mothers)
Yup. And he has them.
The three lawyers that he contacted said that there was no way he
needed a lawyer. In that particular county (not the one he lives in)
DUI is theire main source of revenue for that county.
What county is this?
No justice, just a turnstile. You pays your money and you loose your
license. It appears that the fine will be much lower than you had
hoped, but the length of the loss of license will cheer you up.
Well, then it appears that he shouldn't have driven drunk in the dirst
place!
Virginia may or may not have had the .08 blood alcohol standard prior
to the federal mandate.
I do not know of a way of judging someone with out a standard.
I am really sure that the standard for judgement in Virginia is based
on the Christian Judeo religion and I bet they are quite proud of it.
I know that the DUI is the current Mc Carthyism. A DUI driving on
every street. The vast majority ending in tragedy.
I will not be put in a position of defending drunk driving. As the
Virginia faq pointed out, you do not have to be drunk to be DUI.
Thank you for point out that FAQ, that was actually quite nice.
I found that faq a few minutes after my son told me about the DUI.
Any way in a secular humanist society a person commiting DUI for the
first time would be given points, consueling, pay a fine. A second
offense they would go Old Testament on him.
I think like many fundementalist, you have a problem with ambiquity.
I have a problem with people who deal in absolutes.
Anyway he will have to sell his beloved car because of the cost of
risk insurance.
Enjoy.
Again it was Stafford County.
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| User: "AngryJohn" |
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| Title: Re: O.T. Son has DUI please help |
11 Dec 2003 07:52:50 PM |
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On Thu, 11 Dec 2003 20:00:18 -0500, Jim Warren <jmwarren@mail.msu.edu>
wrote:
[much snipped]
As he is an adult, he is entitle to the same rights as anyone else.
If I didn't agree totally with MADD I would join DAMM (Drunks against
Mad Mothers)
Yes everyone has rights.
Spent a week in Virginia.
The town I was in was half Corporate and Half Antebellum.
The people were extremely friendly. I wouldn't mind living there.
Even with Karoke.
The three lawyers that he contacted said that there was no way he
needed a lawyer. In that particular county (not the one he lives in)
DUI is theire main source of revenue for that county.
A lawyer telling you he didn't need a lawyer? OK, so this whole thing
is utter billshit.
No justice, just a turnstile. You pays your money and you loose your
license. It appears that the fine will be much lower than you had
hoped, but the length of the loss of license will cheer you up.
Thanks for your interest
Have an interesting life.
------------------------------
aa#2106
Remove Belief to reply
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