| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"maff" |
| Date: |
20 Oct 2007 03:54:24 PM |
| Object: |
OT: Sorry for the Torture -- Let's Keep on Torturing |
Sorry for the Torture -- Let's Keep on Torturing
http://matthewyglesias.theatlantic.com/archives/2007/10/sorry_for_the_tortu=
re_lets_kee.php
19 Oct 2007 11:03 pm
Maher Arar wasn't able to appear in person at a congressional hearing
on his case because he's still on a US government watchlist. He was,
however, available via videoconference. Bill Delahunt (D-MA)
apologized personally, doing what the Bush administration won't do on
behalf of the country. And then:
Republican Dana Rohrabacher also apologized, but said he would fight
any efforts by Democrats to end the practice of extraordinary
rendition, whereby terror suspects are grabbed by government agents
and taken to another country where local authorities may torture
confessions out of them.
"Yes, we should be ashamed" of what happened in the case, Rohrabacher
said. "That is no excuse to end a program which has protected the
lives of hundreds of thousands if not millions of American lives."
Jittery donors want Obama to step it up
http://www.politico.com/news/stories/1007/6457.html
By: Ben Smith
Oct 19, 2007 06:51 PM EST
They might have a war chest in the bank and a candidate who draws rock
star crowds, but that doesn't mean Barack Obama supporters aren't
getting the jitters as primary season rapidly approaches.
After all, despite the good press and enthusiasm surrounding Obama,
Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton has stayed solidly ahead in both polls and
conventional wisdom.
Remainders: Flying monkeys
http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/
Peggy Noonan says (really?) that she and other conservative women
could like Hillary, if not for the flying monkeys.
Judith Warner, going the other direction, wonders whether the income
gap hasn't created a mental gap in which the Haves worry about Monica
and the Have Nots care about issues. (Has she been talking to Mark
Penn?)
Obama's Gospel Tour
http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/10/19/obamas-gospel-tour/
Barack Obama is bringing a gospel tour through South Carolina. A music
critic for The Times gives us his take on the lineup.
Sweet blog extra: Sweet home Obama, campaign launches gospel tour in
S=2EC.
http://blogs.suntimes.com/sweet/2007/10/sweet_blog_extra_sweet_home_ob.html
NEAR BATAVIA, ILL.(ON RTE. 88)--There are many ways to try to jazz up
voters--and the campaign of White House hopeful Sen. Barack Obama (D-
Ill.) is launching a gospel music tour next week to whip up the
crucial African-American in South Carolina, an early primary state.
Obama: Less Black Than Hillary?
http://headingright.com/2007/10/19/obama-less-black-than-hillary/
It's the nadir of ethnic politics and at the same time a repudiation
of them, but Barack Obama somehow has managed to come across to
African-American voters as less black than Hillary Clinton. CNN's
Roland Martin delivers that analysis, which scolds Obama for his
emotional "detachment" and focus on policy rather than engagement in
exploitative histrionics that Martin apparently believes black voters
want. According to CNN's poll, Martin has it correct that something
appears to be missing from Obama's campaign:
For Obama, a convenient truth: There's no sign Gore will run
http://www.socialdailynews.com/2007/10/for-obama-a-convenient-truth-theres-=
no-sign-gore-will-run/
By admin on Oct 19, 2007 in General
Former Vice President Al Gore, in Chicago on Wednesday, gave no
indication he wants to run for the White House again as he delivered
the best stump speech I have heard in the 2008 presidential season.
Gore talked about change in its most useful context, attached to a
subject - the climate. He also, in his dismal predictions, gave reason
for hope.
Obama in Madison
http://www.progressive.org/mag_wxld101907
By Elizabeth DiNovella, October 19, 2007
What's there not to like about Obama? Even my conservative father from
Chicago wanted to hear about Obama's visit to Madison. I think my
father has a soft spot for Obama since papa's a self-made man, too.
After making the 3000+ crowd wait an hour, Obama was greeted by a
roar. "Never before have these many Packer fans cheered for a Bears
fan," he said.
Fundraising 101 at 'Obama U'
http://www.swamppolitics.com/news/politics/blog/2007/10/fundraising_101_at_=
obama_u.html
by John McCormick
Gathered in a Chicago hotel ballroom, the 100 or so students had come
from across the nation to learn from some of the top names in the
business: Solomont, Kearney, Barzun.
While not household names, they are some of the top players in the
presidential money game, where the bundling of contributions by elite
fundraisers is an essential part in financing the growing cost of
national campaigns.
Barack Obama: He is the Message!!!
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2007/10/19/163944/56
by bigpappa10834
Fri Oct 19, 2007 at 02:38:46 PM PDT
Uh huh...that's right...my man Barack Obama is oh so close to closing
the gap. Obama has just raised 2 MILLION DOLLARS in just 3 days. 3
DAYS!!! That's less than a work week. Who would have thought? I don't
know about any of you, but that's what I call people-powered politics.
The kind of politics that we here at DailyKos are supposed to promote.
The kind of politics that we here at DailyKos are supposed to engage
in. The kind of politics that we here at DailyKos are supposed to be
proud of. That is the kind of campaign that my man, Barack Obama, is
running. It is from the ground-up. We the people...wait...let me say
that again...we the people are in charge of his campaign, and when he
becomes President, WE THE PEOPLE are going to run this country.
Because, if history serves me right, the government is formed of the
people, by the people, and for the people.
Obama and Clinton Appealing to Different Democratic Voters
http://liberalvaluesblog.com/?p=3D2281
The previous post dealt with those of us who do not entirely agree
with the orthodoxy of either political party. This year Barack Obama
is receiving the support of some voters who fit this description.
Ronald Brownstein compares the views of Obama and Hillary Clinton,
finding that Clinton's views are more characteristic of the old New
Deal coalition while ironically Obama appeals more to the new
Democratic voters who Bill Clinton brought into the party:
Proposal by proposal, Hillary Rodham Clinton and Barack Obama are
constructing policy agendas that present their party with mirror-image
choices.
Commentary: Barack Obama's black wakeup call
http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/10/18/roland.martin/index.html
By Roland S. Martin
CNN Contributor
(CNN) -- If the advisers around Sen. Barack Obama want to continue to
delude themselves into thinking they have lots of time for black
voters to get around to figuring out their candidate's record on
issues they care about, then the latest CNN poll surely must be the
kind of slap in the face to bring them back to reality.
There was a general assumption when Obama announced for the presidency
that he was going to garner a lion's share of the black vote. In a
normal presidential race, sure. But with Sen. Hillary Clinton in the
race, the reality of the affection -- real and perceived -- that black
folks have for the Clintons is clearly what has her storming out to a
strong lead over Obama.
Tech Workers Give It Up to Democrats
http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1895,2201984,00.asp
By Roy Mark
October 18, 2007
Bill Gates likes Obama but Microsoft workers favor Clinton.
Google employees are in the tank for Barack Obama. So is Bill Gates.
But the Microsoft rank and file prefer Hillary Clinton. Cisco CEO John
Chambers backs John McCain, although his employees are supporting
Clinton.
In an eWEEK analysis of individual political contributors at the
nation's largest technology and telecom firms, tech workers are
overwhelmingly betting their presidential dollars on the Democrats.
Obama Works with Ethnic Social Sites to Remove Bad Ad Potential
http://clickz.com/showPage.html?page=3D3627352
By Kate Kaye, The ClickZ Network, Oct 19, 2007
Democratic Presidential hopeful Barack Obama would probably rather not
have ads promoting "Asian Girl Photos" on his AsianAve.com profile.
That's one reason his campaign worked directly with the Asian social
network site's publisher to ensure a potential reputation damaging
situation like that doesn't occur.
Though Community Connect VP of Marketing Kay Madati thinks it's good
idea for political campaigns to create profiles on the site without
the company's consultation, he understands why they might not want
to.
Barack Obama's black wakeup call
http://essence.typepad.com/news/2007/10/barack-obamas-b.html
If the advisers around Sen. Barack Obama want to continue to delude
themselves into thinking they have lots of time for black voters to
get around to figuring out their candidates record on issues they care
about, then the latest CNN poll surely must be the kind of slap in the
face to bring them back to reality.
There was a general assumption when Obama announced for the presidency
that he was going to garner a lion's share of the black vote. In a
normal presidential election, sure. But with Sen. Hillary Clinton in
the race, the reality of the affection - real and perceived - that
black folks have for the Clintons is clearly what has her storming out
to a strong lead over Obama.
Obama offers plan to aid smaller farms, expand renewable fuels
industry
http://www.agweekly.com/articles/2007/10/17/news/ag_news/news03.txt
By MIKE GLOVER, Associated Press Writer
FAIRFAX, Iowa - Democratic presidential candidate Barack Obama,
seeking votes in Iowa, on Tuesday offered a plan to aid smaller farms,
expand the renewable fuels industry and establish incentives for
organic production.
The Illinois senator called for a goal of producing 2 billion gallons
of cellulosic ethanol by 2013 while ensuring that such an expansion
doesn't increase pollution. Iowa leads the nation in ethanol
production.
Much ado about nothing?
http://incertus.blogspot.com/2007/10/much-ado-about-nothing-maybe-not.html
Maybe not. Barack Obama is getting some heat for his Gospel Tour,
named "Embrace the Change," in large part because of one of the
performers, Donnie McClurkin, is a bit of a nut.
A Bush supporter, McClurkin performed for the President at the
Republican National Convention last year. "There is a moral aspect
that was overwhelmingly a part of Bush's appeal," said McClurkin, who
also appeared in Michigan with Bush during the campaign. Shortly
after, he was quoted on the Christian Broadcasting Network's (Pat
Robertson?s organization) web site saying: "I'm not in the mood to
play with those who are trying to kill our children." So now gays are
trying to kill children. That's completely absurd and there?s no proof
to validate that statement.
Can Hillary Clinton win?
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/chi-electability_bdoct21,1,7=
278460,full.story
Opponents try to cast doubt on her electability
By Jill Zuckman | Tribune national correspondent
1:54 PM CDT, October 20, 2007
WHEAT RIDGE, Colo.-Steve Valdez, a retired high school history
teacher, is keeping an eye on the presidential campaign and wondering
about Sen. Hillary Clinton's chances.
"Is history ready?" asks Valdez, an independent voter, unsure whether
voters will embrace the controversial former first lady for president.
Hillary or Obama?
http://www.sharkle.com/video/142150/
SodaHead.com and Ross "The Intern" Mathews interviews celebrities on
their pick for the 2008 Presidential race.
Obama's Gospel Tour
http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/10/19/obamas-gospel-tour/
By Sarah Wheaton
As religious conservatives gather in Washington this weekend for the
"Values Voters Summit," Senator Barack Obama's campaign announced its
latest effort to attract people of faith to the campaign: a gospel
concert tour.
Obama Camp Ramps Up Its War Room
http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/10/18/obama-campaign-staffs-a-war-r=
oom/
By Jeff Zeleny
The campaign of Senator Barack Obama, it seems, is bracing for
bruising days ahead.
Obama vs. the anger mongers
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/columnists/chi-071020chapman,1,6346777.c=
olumn
Though this is the time to voice his discontent, the contender is
content to not heat up the hustings
Steve Chapman
October 21, 2007
TIPTON, IOWA-Barack Obama has been campaigning since early this
morning, and as he addresses his last audience of the day, he
professes some strong emotions about the distance many Americans feel
from their government. "It makes me angry when folks feel they have no
one working for them," he declares to some 250 people who have
gathered on a Tuesday evening at the Cedar County Fairgrounds.
As he invariably does when outlining his discontent with the status
quo, the Illinois senator sounds firm. He sounds sincere. What he
doesn't sound is angry.
State of the States: Spats and Shifts
http://www.politico.com/news/stories/1007/6451.html
By: Politico Partners
Oct 20, 2007 10:06 AM EST
This week, our state correspondents report on spats between underdogs
and front-runners in the early primary states.
In South Carolina, Sen. John McCain attacked Mitt Romney. And the
third-quarter fundraising numbers painted a new picture of who might
be gaining an advantage there-Barack Obama is spending, and it seems
as though Rudy Giuliani has a lot of friends. The McCain-Romney spat
began earlier in New Hampshire, where Romney blasted McCain for
praising the state's Democratic governor.
Federico Pe=F1a Launches Nevada Latinos for Obama with Events in Reno
http://www.kolotv.com/home/headlines/10690111.html
Posted: 9:17 AM Oct 20, 2007
Last Updated: 9:17 AM Oct 20, 2007
Federico Pe=F1a, former Clinton administration Energy and Transportation
Secretary, launched Nevada Latinos for Obama today.
Secretary Pe=F1a joined with Latino supporters and volunteers in Reno
and Las Vegas to expand the grassroots movement for Barack Obama
within the Latino community in Nevada.
Obama's Right: Politicians Must Justify their Values
http://www.americanchronicle.com/articles/viewArticle.asp?articleID=3D40587
Rodney Smith
October 20, 2007
I read that Barack Obama started a novel idea. Instead of demagogues
just chanting mantras while the other side covers its ear and says "la
la la", debate should be moved back to open discussion. Freedom of
speech should again be allowed, including tolerance and open
listening. The nation has been successfully split by people making
issues and condemning those that don't agree with the new
protagonists. Even if Senator Obama did not say so, it's a good idea
to go back to letting people speak and promote ideas even if they are
not popular with socially dominant judges, education managers and
mainstream media.
It would be great to hear the Democrats explain why it is good to have
foreign dictators speak at our universities while American spokesmen
and students are banned. Why should radio hosts be censored while
Democrats reap money from Hollywood? It would be wonderful if the
Democrats could explain why the first right in the constitution was
cancelled for an article of faith called "privacy", so that abortion
is promoted by the government. How can they be proponents for open
ideas when their beliefs in evolution and human caused global warming
cannot be questioned?
Obama: No cowboy diplomacy with Iran
http://www.presstv.ir/detail.aspx?id=3D27812§ionid=3D3510203
Sat, 20 Oct 2007 04:47:26
US presidential hopeful Barack Obama has slammed George W Bush's
recent rhetoric against Iran, saying the cowboy diplomacy is no use.
"Five years after the original war after the Iraq vote we should have
all learned that cowboy diplomacy doesn't work," Obama told to a crowd
of about 2,000 people.
.
|
|
| User: "Greywolf" |
|
| Title: Re: Sorry for the Torture -- Let's Keep on Torturing |
20 Oct 2007 05:50:21 PM |
|
|
"maff" <maff91@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1192913664.231618.56920@y27g2000pre.googlegroups.com...
Sorry for the Torture -- Let's Keep on Torturing
http://matthewyglesias.theatlantic.com/archives/2007/10/sorry_for_the_torture_lets_kee.php
19 Oct 2007 11:03 pm
Maher Arar wasn't able to appear in person at a congressional hearing
on his case because he's still on a US government watchlist. He was,
however, available via videoconference. Bill Delahunt (D-MA)
apologized personally, doing what the Bush administration won't do on
behalf of the country. And then:
Republican Dana Rohrabacher also apologized, but said he would fight
any efforts by Democrats to end the practice of extraordinary
rendition, whereby terror suspects are grabbed by government agents
and taken to another country where local authorities may torture
confessions out of them.
"Yes, we should be ashamed" of what happened in the case, Rohrabacher
said. "That is no excuse to end a program which has protected the
lives of hundreds of thousands if not millions of American lives."
Jittery donors want Obama to step it up
http://www.politico.com/news/stories/1007/6457.html
By: Ben Smith
Oct 19, 2007 06:51 PM EST
They might have a war chest in the bank and a candidate who draws rock
star crowds, but that doesn't mean Barack Obama supporters aren't
getting the jitters as primary season rapidly approaches.
After all, despite the good press and enthusiasm surrounding Obama,
Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton has stayed solidly ahead in both polls and
conventional wisdom.
Remainders: Flying monkeys
http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/
Peggy Noonan says (really?) that she and other conservative women
could like Hillary, if not for the flying monkeys.
Judith Warner, going the other direction, wonders whether the income
gap hasn't created a mental gap in which the Haves worry about Monica
and the Have Nots care about issues. (Has she been talking to Mark
Penn?)
Obama's Gospel Tour
http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/10/19/obamas-gospel-tour/
Barack Obama is bringing a gospel tour through South Carolina. A music
critic for The Times gives us his take on the lineup.
Sweet blog extra: Sweet home Obama, campaign launches gospel tour in
S.C.
http://blogs.suntimes.com/sweet/2007/10/sweet_blog_extra_sweet_home_ob.html
NEAR BATAVIA, ILL.(ON RTE. 88)--There are many ways to try to jazz up
voters--and the campaign of White House hopeful Sen. Barack Obama (D-
Ill.) is launching a gospel music tour next week to whip up the
crucial African-American in South Carolina, an early primary state.
Obama: Less Black Than Hillary?
http://headingright.com/2007/10/19/obama-less-black-than-hillary/
It's the nadir of ethnic politics and at the same time a repudiation
of them, but Barack Obama somehow has managed to come across to
African-American voters as less black than Hillary Clinton. CNN's
Roland Martin delivers that analysis, which scolds Obama for his
emotional "detachment" and focus on policy rather than engagement in
exploitative histrionics that Martin apparently believes black voters
want. According to CNN's poll, Martin has it correct that something
appears to be missing from Obama's campaign:
For Obama, a convenient truth: There's no sign Gore will run
http://www.socialdailynews.com/2007/10/for-obama-a-convenient-truth-theres-no-sign-gore-will-run/
By admin on Oct 19, 2007 in General
Former Vice President Al Gore, in Chicago on Wednesday, gave no
indication he wants to run for the White House again as he delivered
the best stump speech I have heard in the 2008 presidential season.
Gore talked about change in its most useful context, attached to a
subject - the climate. He also, in his dismal predictions, gave reason
for hope.
Obama in Madison
http://www.progressive.org/mag_wxld101907
By Elizabeth DiNovella, October 19, 2007
What's there not to like about Obama? Even my conservative father from
Chicago wanted to hear about Obama's visit to Madison. I think my
father has a soft spot for Obama since papa's a self-made man, too.
After making the 3000+ crowd wait an hour, Obama was greeted by a
roar. "Never before have these many Packer fans cheered for a Bears
fan," he said.
Well Packer fans will even cheer when an injured Bear player whose just had
the snot knocked out of him get up (after regaining consciousness) and go
off the field under his own power too! Shows Packer fans have 'class', and
plenty of it.
Obama shouldn't have been surprised. Packer fans appreciate a politician
with loads of dignity and grace.
Greywolf
Fundraising 101 at 'Obama U'
http://www.swamppolitics.com/news/politics/blog/2007/10/fundraising_101_at_obama_u.html
by John McCormick
Gathered in a Chicago hotel ballroom, the 100 or so students had come
from across the nation to learn from some of the top names in the
business: Solomont, Kearney, Barzun.
While not household names, they are some of the top players in the
presidential money game, where the bundling of contributions by elite
fundraisers is an essential part in financing the growing cost of
national campaigns.
Barack Obama: He is the Message!!!
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2007/10/19/163944/56
by bigpappa10834
Fri Oct 19, 2007 at 02:38:46 PM PDT
Uh huh...that's right...my man Barack Obama is oh so close to closing
the gap. Obama has just raised 2 MILLION DOLLARS in just 3 days. 3
DAYS!!! That's less than a work week. Who would have thought? I don't
know about any of you, but that's what I call people-powered politics.
The kind of politics that we here at DailyKos are supposed to promote.
The kind of politics that we here at DailyKos are supposed to engage
in. The kind of politics that we here at DailyKos are supposed to be
proud of. That is the kind of campaign that my man, Barack Obama, is
running. It is from the ground-up. We the people...wait...let me say
that again...we the people are in charge of his campaign, and when he
becomes President, WE THE PEOPLE are going to run this country.
Because, if history serves me right, the government is formed of the
people, by the people, and for the people.
Obama and Clinton Appealing to Different Democratic Voters
http://liberalvaluesblog.com/?p=2281
The previous post dealt with those of us who do not entirely agree
with the orthodoxy of either political party. This year Barack Obama
is receiving the support of some voters who fit this description.
Ronald Brownstein compares the views of Obama and Hillary Clinton,
finding that Clinton's views are more characteristic of the old New
Deal coalition while ironically Obama appeals more to the new
Democratic voters who Bill Clinton brought into the party:
Proposal by proposal, Hillary Rodham Clinton and Barack Obama are
constructing policy agendas that present their party with mirror-image
choices.
Commentary: Barack Obama's black wakeup call
http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/10/18/roland.martin/index.html
By Roland S. Martin
CNN Contributor
(CNN) -- If the advisers around Sen. Barack Obama want to continue to
delude themselves into thinking they have lots of time for black
voters to get around to figuring out their candidate's record on
issues they care about, then the latest CNN poll surely must be the
kind of slap in the face to bring them back to reality.
There was a general assumption when Obama announced for the presidency
that he was going to garner a lion's share of the black vote. In a
normal presidential race, sure. But with Sen. Hillary Clinton in the
race, the reality of the affection -- real and perceived -- that black
folks have for the Clintons is clearly what has her storming out to a
strong lead over Obama.
Tech Workers Give It Up to Democrats
http://www.eweek.com/article2/0,1895,2201984,00.asp
By Roy Mark
October 18, 2007
Bill Gates likes Obama but Microsoft workers favor Clinton.
Google employees are in the tank for Barack Obama. So is Bill Gates.
But the Microsoft rank and file prefer Hillary Clinton. Cisco CEO John
Chambers backs John McCain, although his employees are supporting
Clinton.
In an eWEEK analysis of individual political contributors at the
nation's largest technology and telecom firms, tech workers are
overwhelmingly betting their presidential dollars on the Democrats.
Obama Works with Ethnic Social Sites to Remove Bad Ad Potential
http://clickz.com/showPage.html?page=3627352
By Kate Kaye, The ClickZ Network, Oct 19, 2007
Democratic Presidential hopeful Barack Obama would probably rather not
have ads promoting "Asian Girl Photos" on his AsianAve.com profile.
That's one reason his campaign worked directly with the Asian social
network site's publisher to ensure a potential reputation damaging
situation like that doesn't occur.
Though Community Connect VP of Marketing Kay Madati thinks it's good
idea for political campaigns to create profiles on the site without
the company's consultation, he understands why they might not want
to.
Barack Obama's black wakeup call
http://essence.typepad.com/news/2007/10/barack-obamas-b.html
If the advisers around Sen. Barack Obama want to continue to delude
themselves into thinking they have lots of time for black voters to
get around to figuring out their candidates record on issues they care
about, then the latest CNN poll surely must be the kind of slap in the
face to bring them back to reality.
There was a general assumption when Obama announced for the presidency
that he was going to garner a lion's share of the black vote. In a
normal presidential election, sure. But with Sen. Hillary Clinton in
the race, the reality of the affection - real and perceived - that
black folks have for the Clintons is clearly what has her storming out
to a strong lead over Obama.
Obama offers plan to aid smaller farms, expand renewable fuels
industry
http://www.agweekly.com/articles/2007/10/17/news/ag_news/news03.txt
By MIKE GLOVER, Associated Press Writer
FAIRFAX, Iowa - Democratic presidential candidate Barack Obama,
seeking votes in Iowa, on Tuesday offered a plan to aid smaller farms,
expand the renewable fuels industry and establish incentives for
organic production.
The Illinois senator called for a goal of producing 2 billion gallons
of cellulosic ethanol by 2013 while ensuring that such an expansion
doesn't increase pollution. Iowa leads the nation in ethanol
production.
Much ado about nothing?
http://incertus.blogspot.com/2007/10/much-ado-about-nothing-maybe-not.html
Maybe not. Barack Obama is getting some heat for his Gospel Tour,
named "Embrace the Change," in large part because of one of the
performers, Donnie McClurkin, is a bit of a nut.
A Bush supporter, McClurkin performed for the President at the
Republican National Convention last year. "There is a moral aspect
that was overwhelmingly a part of Bush's appeal," said McClurkin, who
also appeared in Michigan with Bush during the campaign. Shortly
after, he was quoted on the Christian Broadcasting Network's (Pat
Robertson?s organization) web site saying: "I'm not in the mood to
play with those who are trying to kill our children." So now gays are
trying to kill children. That's completely absurd and there?s no proof
to validate that statement.
Can Hillary Clinton win?
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/chi-electability_bdoct21,1,7278460,full.story
Opponents try to cast doubt on her electability
By Jill Zuckman | Tribune national correspondent
1:54 PM CDT, October 20, 2007
WHEAT RIDGE, Colo.-Steve Valdez, a retired high school history
teacher, is keeping an eye on the presidential campaign and wondering
about Sen. Hillary Clinton's chances.
"Is history ready?" asks Valdez, an independent voter, unsure whether
voters will embrace the controversial former first lady for president.
Hillary or Obama?
http://www.sharkle.com/video/142150/
SodaHead.com and Ross "The Intern" Mathews interviews celebrities on
their pick for the 2008 Presidential race.
Obama's Gospel Tour
http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/10/19/obamas-gospel-tour/
By Sarah Wheaton
As religious conservatives gather in Washington this weekend for the
"Values Voters Summit," Senator Barack Obama's campaign announced its
latest effort to attract people of faith to the campaign: a gospel
concert tour.
Obama Camp Ramps Up Its War Room
http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/10/18/obama-campaign-staffs-a-war-room/
By Jeff Zeleny
The campaign of Senator Barack Obama, it seems, is bracing for
bruising days ahead.
Obama vs. the anger mongers
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/columnists/chi-071020chapman,1,6346777.column
Though this is the time to voice his discontent, the contender is
content to not heat up the hustings
Steve Chapman
October 21, 2007
TIPTON, IOWA-Barack Obama has been campaigning since early this
morning, and as he addresses his last audience of the day, he
professes some strong emotions about the distance many Americans feel
from their government. "It makes me angry when folks feel they have no
one working for them," he declares to some 250 people who have
gathered on a Tuesday evening at the Cedar County Fairgrounds.
As he invariably does when outlining his discontent with the status
quo, the Illinois senator sounds firm. He sounds sincere. What he
doesn't sound is angry.
State of the States: Spats and Shifts
http://www.politico.com/news/stories/1007/6451.html
By: Politico Partners
Oct 20, 2007 10:06 AM EST
This week, our state correspondents report on spats between underdogs
and front-runners in the early primary states.
In South Carolina, Sen. John McCain attacked Mitt Romney. And the
third-quarter fundraising numbers painted a new picture of who might
be gaining an advantage there-Barack Obama is spending, and it seems
as though Rudy Giuliani has a lot of friends. The McCain-Romney spat
began earlier in New Hampshire, where Romney blasted McCain for
praising the state's Democratic governor.
Federico Peņa Launches Nevada Latinos for Obama with Events in Reno
http://www.kolotv.com/home/headlines/10690111.html
Posted: 9:17 AM Oct 20, 2007
Last Updated: 9:17 AM Oct 20, 2007
Federico Peņa, former Clinton administration Energy and Transportation
Secretary, launched Nevada Latinos for Obama today.
Secretary Peņa joined with Latino supporters and volunteers in Reno
and Las Vegas to expand the grassroots movement for Barack Obama
within the Latino community in Nevada.
Obama's Right: Politicians Must Justify their Values
http://www.americanchronicle.com/articles/viewArticle.asp?articleID=40587
Rodney Smith
October 20, 2007
I read that Barack Obama started a novel idea. Instead of demagogues
just chanting mantras while the other side covers its ear and says "la
la la", debate should be moved back to open discussion. Freedom of
speech should again be allowed, including tolerance and open
listening. The nation has been successfully split by people making
issues and condemning those that don't agree with the new
protagonists. Even if Senator Obama did not say so, it's a good idea
to go back to letting people speak and promote ideas even if they are
not popular with socially dominant judges, education managers and
mainstream media.
It would be great to hear the Democrats explain why it is good to have
foreign dictators speak at our universities while American spokesmen
and students are banned. Why should radio hosts be censored while
Democrats reap money from Hollywood? It would be wonderful if the
Democrats could explain why the first right in the constitution was
cancelled for an article of faith called "privacy", so that abortion
is promoted by the government. How can they be proponents for open
ideas when their beliefs in evolution and human caused global warming
cannot be questioned?
Obama: No cowboy diplomacy with Iran
http://www.presstv.ir/detail.aspx?id=27812§ionid=3510203
Sat, 20 Oct 2007 04:47:26
US presidential hopeful Barack Obama has slammed George W Bush's
recent rhetoric against Iran, saying the cowboy diplomacy is no use.
"Five years after the original war after the Iraq vote we should have
all learned that cowboy diplomacy doesn't work," Obama told to a crowd
of about 2,000 people.
.
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| User: "Al Klein" |
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| Title: Re: Sorry for the Torture -- Let's Keep on Torturing |
20 Oct 2007 08:18:10 PM |
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On Sat, 20 Oct 2007 17:50:21 -0500, "Greywolf" <greywolf@cybrzn.com>
wrote:
"maff" <maff91@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1192913664.231618.56920@y27g2000pre.googlegroups.com...
Sorry for the Torture -- Let's Keep on Torturing
http://matthewyglesias.theatlantic.com/archives/2007/10/sorry_for_the_torture_lets_kee.php
19 Oct 2007 11:03 pm
Maher Arar wasn't able to appear in person at a congressional hearing
on his case because he's still on a US government watchlist. He was,
however, available via videoconference. Bill Delahunt (D-MA)
apologized personally, doing what the Bush administration won't do on
behalf of the country. And then:
Republican Dana Rohrabacher also apologized, but said he would fight
any efforts by Democrats to end the practice of extraordinary
rendition, whereby terror suspects are grabbed by government agents
and taken to another country where local authorities may torture
confessions out of them.
"Yes, we should be ashamed" of what happened in the case, Rohrabacher
said. "That is no excuse to end a program which has protected the
lives of hundreds of thousands if not millions of American lives."
Exactly which confessions led to arresting or stopping exactly which
terrorists?
Is "none" close?
--
Al at Webdingers dot com
"...I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do.
When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand
why I dismiss yours."
- Stephen F. Roberts
.
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| User: "Greywolf" |
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| Title: Re: Sorry for the Torture -- Let's Keep on Torturing |
21 Oct 2007 01:20:40 AM |
|
|
"Al Klein" <rukbat@pern.invalid> wrote in message
news:b5alh35ql0hiurlv4pk22rvhgf3hm23obe@4ax.com...
On Sat, 20 Oct 2007 17:50:21 -0500, "Greywolf" <greywolf@cybrzn.com>
wrote:
"maff" <maff91@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1192913664.231618.56920@y27g2000pre.googlegroups.com...
Sorry for the Torture -- Let's Keep on Torturing
http://matthewyglesias.theatlantic.com/archives/2007/10/sorry_for_the_torture_lets_kee.php
19 Oct 2007 11:03 pm
Maher Arar wasn't able to appear in person at a congressional hearing
on his case because he's still on a US government watchlist. He was,
however, available via videoconference. Bill Delahunt (D-MA)
apologized personally, doing what the Bush administration won't do on
behalf of the country. And then:
Republican Dana Rohrabacher also apologized, but said he would fight
any efforts by Democrats to end the practice of extraordinary
rendition, whereby terror suspects are grabbed by government agents
and taken to another country where local authorities may torture
confessions out of them.
"Yes, we should be ashamed" of what happened in the case, Rohrabacher
said. "That is no excuse to end a program which has protected the
lives of hundreds of thousands if not millions of American lives."
Exactly which confessions led to arresting or stopping exactly which
terrorists?
Is "none" close?
--
Al at Webdingers dot com
"...I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god
than you do.
When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will
understand
why I dismiss yours."
- Stephen F. Roberts
I actually was replying to a reference OBama made in regards to Green Bay
Packer fans further on down in Maff's post.
Greywolf
.
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| User: "Michael Ejercito" |
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| Title: Re: OT: Sorry for the Torture -- Let's Keep on Torturing |
20 Oct 2007 08:47:44 PM |
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On Oct 20, 1:54 pm, maff <maf...@yahoo.com> wrote:
Sorry for the Torture -- Let's Keep on Torturinghttp://matthewyglesias.theatlantic.com/archives/2007/10/sorry_for_the...
19 Oct 2007 11:03 pm
Maher Arar wasn't able to appear in person at a congressional hearing
on his case because he's still on a US government watchlist. He was,
however, available via videoconference. Bill Delahunt (D-MA)
apologized personally, doing what the Bush administration won't do on
behalf of the country. And then:
Republican Dana Rohrabacher also apologized, but said he would fight
any efforts by Democrats to end the practice of extraordinary
rendition, whereby terror suspects are grabbed by government agents
and taken to another country where local authorities may torture
confessions out of them.
The local authorities bear responsibility for the torture.
Michael
.
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| User: "Free Lunch" |
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| Title: Re: OT: Sorry for the Torture -- Let's Keep on Torturing |
20 Oct 2007 09:06:18 PM |
|
|
On Sat, 20 Oct 2007 18:47:44 -0700, in alt.atheism
Michael Ejercito <mejercit@hotmail.com> wrote in
<1192931264.087934.116060@e9g2000prf.googlegroups.com>:
On Oct 20, 1:54 pm, maff <maf...@yahoo.com> wrote:
Sorry for the Torture -- Let's Keep on Torturinghttp://matthewyglesias.theatlantic.com/archives/2007/10/sorry_for_the...
19 Oct 2007 11:03 pm
Maher Arar wasn't able to appear in person at a congressional hearing
on his case because he's still on a US government watchlist. He was,
however, available via videoconference. Bill Delahunt (D-MA)
apologized personally, doing what the Bush administration won't do on
behalf of the country. And then:
Republican Dana Rohrabacher also apologized, but said he would fight
any efforts by Democrats to end the practice of extraordinary
rendition, whereby terror suspects are grabbed by government agents
and taken to another country where local authorities may torture
confessions out of them.
The local authorities bear responsibility for the torture.
So do the Americans who turn the people over knowing they will be
tortured.
.
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|
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| User: "Michael Ejercito" |
|
| Title: Re: OT: Sorry for the Torture -- Let's Keep on Torturing |
22 Oct 2007 04:24:18 PM |
|
|
On Oct 20, 7:06 pm, Free Lunch <lu...@nofreelunch.us> wrote:
On Sat, 20 Oct 2007 18:47:44 -0700, in alt.atheism
Michael Ejercito <mejer...@hotmail.com> wrote in
<1192931264.087934.116...@e9g2000prf.googlegroups.com>:
On Oct 20, 1:54 pm, maff <maf...@yahoo.com> wrote:
Sorry for the Torture -- Let's Keep on Torturinghttp://matthewyglesias.theatlantic.com/archives/2007/10/sorry_for_the...
19 Oct 2007 11:03 pm
Maher Arar wasn't able to appear in person at a congressional hearing
on his case because he's still on a US government watchlist. He was,
however, available via videoconference. Bill Delahunt (D-MA)
apologized personally, doing what the Bush administration won't do on
behalf of the country. And then:
Republican Dana Rohrabacher also apologized, but said he would fight
any efforts by Democrats to end the practice of extraordinary
rendition, whereby terror suspects are grabbed by government agents
and taken to another country where local authorities may torture
confessions out of them.
The local authorities bear responsibility for the torture.
So do the Americans who turn the people over knowing they will be
tortured.
The Americans do not bear the GUILT though.
I know this because according to the Bible, God turns people over
to the lake of fire knowing that they will be tortured forever and
ever. If people bore guilt of torture for turning people over knowing
that they will be tortured, then this means God bears the guilt for
the torture in Hell - a contradiction.
Michael
.
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| User: "Cary Kittrell" |
|
| Title: Re: OT: Sorry for the Torture -- Let's Keep on Torturing |
22 Oct 2007 04:45:58 PM |
|
|
In article <1192998070.626574.149010@e34g2000pro.googlegroups.com> Michael Ejercito <mejercit@hotmail.com> writes:
On Oct 20, 7:06 pm, Free Lunch <lu...@nofreelunch.us> wrote:
On Sat, 20 Oct 2007 18:47:44 -0700, in alt.atheism
Michael Ejercito <mejer...@hotmail.com> wrote in
<1192931264.087934.116...@e9g2000prf.googlegroups.com>:
On Oct 20, 1:54 pm, maff <maf...@yahoo.com> wrote:
Sorry for the Torture -- Let's Keep on Torturinghttp://matthewyglesias.theatlantic.com/archives/2007/10/sorry_for_the...
19 Oct 2007 11:03 pm
Maher Arar wasn't able to appear in person at a congressional hearing
on his case because he's still on a US government watchlist. He was,
however, available via videoconference. Bill Delahunt (D-MA)
apologized personally, doing what the Bush administration won't do on
behalf of the country. And then:
Republican Dana Rohrabacher also apologized, but said he would fight
any efforts by Democrats to end the practice of extraordinary
rendition, whereby terror suspects are grabbed by government agents
and taken to another country where local authorities may torture
confessions out of them.
The local authorities bear responsibility for the torture.
So do the Americans who turn the people over knowing they will be
tortured.
The Americans do not bear the GUILT though.
I know this because according to the Bible, God turns people over
to the lake of fire knowing that they will be tortured forever and
ever. If people bore guilt of torture for turning people over knowing
that they will be tortured, then this means God bears the guilt for
the torture in Hell - a contradiction.
Thus the Catholic Church bears no guilt for all the "witches",
heretics, apostates it turned over to the state to be burned
to death?
-- cary
.
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| User: "Michael Ejercito" |
|
| Title: Re: OT: Sorry for the Torture -- Let's Keep on Torturing |
22 Oct 2007 08:46:47 PM |
|
|
On Oct 22, 2:45 pm, (Cary Kittrell) wrote:
In article <1192998070.626574.149...@e34g2000pro.googlegroups.com> Michael Ejercito <mejer...@hotmail.com> writes:
On Oct 20, 7:06 pm, Free Lunch <lu...@nofreelunch.us> wrote:
On Sat, 20 Oct 2007 18:47:44 -0700, in alt.atheism
Michael Ejercito <mejer...@hotmail.com> wrote in
<1192931264.087934.116...@e9g2000prf.googlegroups.com>:
On Oct 20, 1:54 pm, maff <maf...@yahoo.com> wrote:
Sorry for the Torture -- Let's Keep on Torturinghttp://matthewyglesias.theatlantic.com/archives/2007/10/sorry_for_the...
19 Oct 2007 11:03 pm
Maher Arar wasn't able to appear in person at a congressional hearing
on his case because he's still on a US government watchlist. He was,
however, available via videoconference. Bill Delahunt (D-MA)
apologized personally, doing what the Bush administration won't do on
behalf of the country. And then:
Republican Dana Rohrabacher also apologized, but said he would fight
any efforts by Democrats to end the practice of extraordinary
rendition, whereby terror suspects are grabbed by government agents
and taken to another country where local authorities may torture
confessions out of them.
The local authorities bear responsibility for the torture.
So do the Americans who turn the people over knowing they will be
tortured.
The Americans do not bear the GUILT though.
I know this because according to the Bible, God turns people over
to the lake of fire knowing that they will be tortured forever and
ever. If people bore guilt of torture for turning people over knowing
that they will be tortured, then this means God bears the guilt for
the torture in Hell - a contradiction.
Thus the Catholic Church bears no guilt for all the "witches",
heretics, apostates it turned over to the state to be burned
to death?
It depends on if the Church requested or ordered the burnings.
Michael
.
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| User: "Rev. Karl E. Taylor" |
|
| Title: Re: OT: Sorry for the Torture -- Let's Keep on Torturing |
22 Oct 2007 04:39:39 PM |
|
|
Michael Ejercito wrote:
On Oct 20, 7:06 pm, Free Lunch <lu...@nofreelunch.us> wrote:
On Sat, 20 Oct 2007 18:47:44 -0700, in alt.atheism
Michael Ejercito <mejer...@hotmail.com> wrote in
<1192931264.087934.116...@e9g2000prf.googlegroups.com>:
On Oct 20, 1:54 pm, maff <maf...@yahoo.com> wrote:
Sorry for the Torture -- Let's Keep on Torturinghttp://matthewyglesias.theatlantic.com/archives/2007/10/sorry_for_the...
19 Oct 2007 11:03 pm
Maher Arar wasn't able to appear in person at a congressional hearing
on his case because he's still on a US government watchlist. He was,
however, available via videoconference. Bill Delahunt (D-MA)
apologized personally, doing what the Bush administration won't do on
behalf of the country. And then:
Republican Dana Rohrabacher also apologized, but said he would fight
any efforts by Democrats to end the practice of extraordinary
rendition, whereby terror suspects are grabbed by government agents
and taken to another country where local authorities may torture
confessions out of them.
The local authorities bear responsibility for the torture.
So do the Americans who turn the people over knowing they will be
tortured.
The Americans do not bear the GUILT though.
I know this because according to the Bible, God turns people over
to the lake of fire knowing that they will be tortured forever and
ever. If people bore guilt of torture for turning people over knowing
that they will be tortured, then this means God bears the guilt for
the torture in Hell - a contradiction.
Yes, a contradictions that you are too ignorant to accept.
Funny how you find fault with people, but none with your magical sky
pixie. Yet you seem to be able to write the fault in your postings.
Obviously, you were dropped on your head a few to many times as a child.
--
There are none more ignorant and useless,
than they that seek answers on their knees,
with their eyes closed.
____________________________________________________________________
Rev. Karl E. Taylor
A.A #1143 PLONKED by Bob
Apostle of Dr. Lao EAC: Virgin Conversion Unit Director
____________________________________________________________________
.
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| User: "Dubh Ghall" |
|
| Title: Re: OT: Sorry for the Torture -- Let's Keep on Torturing |
23 Oct 2007 01:22:26 PM |
|
|
On 22 Oct 2007 14:24:18 -0700, Michael Ejercito <mejercit@hotmail.com>
wrote:
On Oct 20, 7:06 pm, Free Lunch <lu...@nofreelunch.us> wrote:
On Sat, 20 Oct 2007 18:47:44 -0700, in alt.atheism
Michael Ejercito <mejer...@hotmail.com> wrote in
<1192931264.087934.116...@e9g2000prf.googlegroups.com>:
On Oct 20, 1:54 pm, maff <maf...@yahoo.com> wrote:
Sorry for the Torture -- Let's Keep on Torturinghttp://matthewyglesias.theatlantic.com/archives/2007/10/sorry_for_the...
19 Oct 2007 11:03 pm
Maher Arar wasn't able to appear in person at a congressional hearing
on his case because he's still on a US government watchlist. He was,
however, available via videoconference. Bill Delahunt (D-MA)
apologized personally, doing what the Bush administration won't do on
behalf of the country. And then:
Republican Dana Rohrabacher also apologized, but said he would fight
any efforts by Democrats to end the practice of extraordinary
rendition, whereby terror suspects are grabbed by government agents
and taken to another country where local authorities may torture
confessions out of them.
The local authorities bear responsibility for the torture.
So do the Americans who turn the people over knowing they will be
tortured.
The Americans do not bear the GUILT though.
Yes, they do.
--
The spelling like any opinion stated here
is purely my own
#162 BAAWA Knight.
Kill Filed by David Morgan, and his Mam.
.
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| User: "Michael Ejercito" |
|
| Title: Re: OT: Sorry for the Torture -- Let's Keep on Torturing |
23 Oct 2007 09:17:00 PM |
|
|
On Oct 23, 11:22 am, Dubh Ghall <p...@pooks.hill.fey> wrote:
On 22 Oct 2007 14:24:18 -0700, Michael Ejercito <mejer...@hotmail.com>
wrote:
On Oct 20, 7:06 pm, Free Lunch <lu...@nofreelunch.us> wrote:
On Sat, 20 Oct 2007 18:47:44 -0700, in alt.atheism
Michael Ejercito <mejer...@hotmail.com> wrote in
<1192931264.087934.116...@e9g2000prf.googlegroups.com>:
On Oct 20, 1:54 pm, maff <maf...@yahoo.com> wrote:
Sorry for the Torture -- Let's Keep on Torturinghttp://matthewyglesias.theatlantic.com/archives/2007/10/sorry_for_the...
19 Oct 2007 11:03 pm
Maher Arar wasn't able to appear in person at a congressional hearing
on his case because he's still on a US government watchlist. He was,
however, available via videoconference. Bill Delahunt (D-MA)
apologized personally, doing what the Bush administration won't do on
behalf of the country. And then:
Republican Dana Rohrabacher also apologized, but said he would fight
any efforts by Democrats to end the practice of extraordinary
rendition, whereby terror suspects are grabbed by government agents
and taken to another country where local authorities may torture
confessions out of them.
The local authorities bear responsibility for the torture.
So do the Americans who turn the people over knowing they will be
tortured.
The Americans do not bear the GUILT though.
Yes, they do.
How are they responsible for what the sovereign authorities of
other countries do?
Michael
.
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| User: "Free Lunch" |
|
| Title: Re: OT: Sorry for the Torture -- Let's Keep on Torturing |
23 Oct 2007 09:22:59 PM |
|
|
On Tue, 23 Oct 2007 19:17:00 -0700, in alt.atheism
Michael Ejercito <mejercit@hotmail.com> wrote in
<1193192220.975854.143870@q5g2000prf.googlegroups.com>:
On Oct 23, 11:22 am, Dubh Ghall <p...@pooks.hill.fey> wrote:
On 22 Oct 2007 14:24:18 -0700, Michael Ejercito <mejer...@hotmail.com>
wrote:
On Oct 20, 7:06 pm, Free Lunch <lu...@nofreelunch.us> wrote:
On Sat, 20 Oct 2007 18:47:44 -0700, in alt.atheism
Michael Ejercito <mejer...@hotmail.com> wrote in
<1192931264.087934.116...@e9g2000prf.googlegroups.com>:
On Oct 20, 1:54 pm, maff <maf...@yahoo.com> wrote:
Sorry for the Torture -- Let's Keep on Torturinghttp://matthewyglesias.theatlantic.com/archives/2007/10/sorry_for_the...
19 Oct 2007 11:03 pm
Maher Arar wasn't able to appear in person at a congressional hearing
on his case because he's still on a US government watchlist. He was,
however, available via videoconference. Bill Delahunt (D-MA)
apologized personally, doing what the Bush administration won't do on
behalf of the country. And then:
Republican Dana Rohrabacher also apologized, but said he would fight
any efforts by Democrats to end the practice of extraordinary
rendition, whereby terror suspects are grabbed by government agents
and taken to another country where local authorities may torture
confessions out of them.
The local authorities bear responsibility for the torture.
So do the Americans who turn the people over knowing they will be
tortured.
The Americans do not bear the GUILT though.
Yes, they do.
How are they responsible for what the sovereign authorities of
other countries do?
In the same way you are responsible for sending someone into an alley
when you know they will be mugged.
.
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|
|
| User: "" |
|
| Title: Re: OT: Sorry for the Torture -- Let's Keep on Torturing |
23 Oct 2007 09:21:31 PM |
|
|
On Tue, 23 Oct 2007 18:22:26 GMT, Dubh Ghall <puck@pooks.hill.fey>
wrote:
On 22 Oct 2007 14:24:18 -0700, Michael Ejercito <mejercit@hotmail.com>
wrote:
On Oct 20, 7:06 pm, Free Lunch <lu...@nofreelunch.us> wrote:
On Sat, 20 Oct 2007 18:47:44 -0700, in alt.atheism
Michael Ejercito <mejer...@hotmail.com> wrote in
<1192931264.087934.116...@e9g2000prf.googlegroups.com>:
On Oct 20, 1:54 pm, maff <maf...@yahoo.com> wrote:
Sorry for the Torture -- Let's Keep on Torturinghttp://matthewyglesias.theatlantic.com/archives/2007/10/sorry_for_the...
19 Oct 2007 11:03 pm
Maher Arar wasn't able to appear in person at a congressional hearing
on his case because he's still on a US government watchlist. He was,
however, available via videoconference. Bill Delahunt (D-MA)
apologized personally, doing what the Bush administration won't do on
behalf of the country. And then:
Republican Dana Rohrabacher also apologized, but said he would fight
any efforts by Democrats to end the practice of extraordinary
rendition, whereby terror suspects are grabbed by government agents
and taken to another country where local authorities may torture
confessions out of them.
The local authorities bear responsibility for the torture.
So do the Americans who turn the people over knowing they will be
tortured.
The Americans do not bear the GUILT though.
Yes, they do.
Tell us about the kinds of torture that our enemies under go. We
already know what kind they dish out. They've murdered every American
Soldier they've captured, but that doesn't mean a thing to scum like
you. Huh, boy?
.
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| User: "Free Lunch" |
|
| Title: Re: OT: Sorry for the Torture -- Let's Keep on Torturing |
22 Oct 2007 05:29:39 PM |
|
|
On 22 Oct 2007 14:24:18 -0700, in alt.atheism
Michael Ejercito <mejercit@hotmail.com> wrote in
<1192998070.626574.149010@e34g2000pro.googlegroups.com>:
On Oct 20, 7:06 pm, Free Lunch <lu...@nofreelunch.us> wrote:
On Sat, 20 Oct 2007 18:47:44 -0700, in alt.atheism
Michael Ejercito <mejer...@hotmail.com> wrote in
<1192931264.087934.116...@e9g2000prf.googlegroups.com>:
On Oct 20, 1:54 pm, maff <maf...@yahoo.com> wrote:
Sorry for the Torture -- Let's Keep on Torturinghttp://matthewyglesias.theatlantic.com/archives/2007/10/sorry_for_the...
19 Oct 2007 11:03 pm
Maher Arar wasn't able to appear in person at a congressional hearing
on his case because he's still on a US government watchlist. He was,
however, available via videoconference. Bill Delahunt (D-MA)
apologized personally, doing what the Bush administration won't do on
behalf of the country. And then:
Republican Dana Rohrabacher also apologized, but said he would fight
any efforts by Democrats to end the practice of extraordinary
rendition, whereby terror suspects are grabbed by government agents
and taken to another country where local authorities may torture
confessions out of them.
The local authorities bear responsibility for the torture.
So do the Americans who turn the people over knowing they will be
tortured.
The Americans do not bear the GUILT though.
Yes, they do.
I know this because according to the Bible, God turns people over
to the lake of fire knowing that they will be tortured forever and
ever. If people bore guilt of torture for turning people over knowing
that they will be tortured, then this means God bears the guilt for
the torture in Hell - a contradiction.
You are wrong.
.
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| User: "Michael Ejercito" |
|
| Title: Re: OT: Sorry for the Torture -- Let's Keep on Torturing |
21 Oct 2007 03:22:17 PM |
|
|
On Oct 20, 7:06 pm, Free Lunch <lu...@nofreelunch.us> wrote:
On Sat, 20 Oct 2007 18:47:44 -0700, in alt.atheism
Michael Ejercito <mejer...@hotmail.com> wrote in
<1192931264.087934.116...@e9g2000prf.googlegroups.com>:
On Oct 20, 1:54 pm, maff <maf...@yahoo.com> wrote:
Sorry for the Torture -- Let's Keep on Torturinghttp://matthewyglesias.theatlantic.com/archives/2007/10/sorry_for_the...
19 Oct 2007 11:03 pm
Maher Arar wasn't able to appear in person at a congressional hearing
on his case because he's still on a US government watchlist. He was,
however, available via videoconference. Bill Delahunt (D-MA)
apologized personally, doing what the Bush administration won't do on
behalf of the country. And then:
Republican Dana Rohrabacher also apologized, but said he would fight
any efforts by Democrats to end the practice of extraordinary
rendition, whereby terror suspects are grabbed by government agents
and taken to another country where local authorities may torture
confessions out of them.
The local authorities bear responsibility for the torture.
So do the Americans who turn the people over knowing they will be
tortured.
The Americans do not bear the GUILT though.
I know this because according to the Bible, God turns people over
to the lake of fire knowing that they will be tortured forever and
ever. If people bore guilt of torture for turning people over knowing
that they will be tortured, then this means God bears the guilt for
the torture in Hell - a contradiction.
Michael
.
|
|
|
| User: "Al Klein" |
|
| Title: Re: OT: Sorry for the Torture -- Let's Keep on Torturing |
21 Oct 2007 07:01:33 PM |
|
|
On Sun, 21 Oct 2007 13:22:17 -0700, Michael Ejercito
<mejercit@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Oct 20, 7:06 pm, Free Lunch <lu...@nofreelunch.us> wrote:
On Sat, 20 Oct 2007 18:47:44 -0700, in alt.atheism
Michael Ejercito <mejer...@hotmail.com> wrote in
<1192931264.087934.116...@e9g2000prf.googlegroups.com>:
On Oct 20, 1:54 pm, maff <maf...@yahoo.com> wrote:
Sorry for the Torture -- Let's Keep on Torturinghttp://matthewyglesias.theatlantic.com/archives/2007/10/sorry_for_the...
19 Oct 2007 11:03 pm
Maher Arar wasn't able to appear in person at a congressional hearing
on his case because he's still on a US government watchlist. He was,
however, available via videoconference. Bill Delahunt (D-MA)
apologized personally, doing what the Bush administration won't do on
behalf of the country. And then:
Republican Dana Rohrabacher also apologized, but said he would fight
any efforts by Democrats to end the practice of extraordinary
rendition, whereby terror suspects are grabbed by government agents
and taken to another country where local authorities may torture
confessions out of them.
The local authorities bear responsibility for the torture.
So do the Americans who turn the people over knowing they will be
tortured.
The Americans do not bear the GUILT though.
I know this because according to the Bible
The Bible is *****.
God turns people over
to the lake of fire knowing that they will be tortured forever and
ever.
Making him the most immoral torturer of all time.
If people bore guilt of torture for turning people over knowing
that they will be tortured, then this means God bears the guilt for
the torture in Hell - a contradiction.
Only to the terminally stupid.
--
Al at Webdingers dot com
"For aught we know a priori, matter may contain the source, or spring, of order
originating within itself, as well as the mind does."
- David Hume, Dialogues Concerning Natural Religion
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| User: "Michael Ejercito" |
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| Title: Re: OT: Sorry for the Torture -- Let's Keep on Torturing |
21 Oct 2007 10:16:32 PM |
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On Oct 21, 5:01 pm, Al Klein <ruk...@pern.invalid> wrote:
On Sun, 21 Oct 2007 13:22:17 -0700, Michael Ejercito
<mejer...@hotmail.com> wrote:
On Oct 20, 7:06 pm, Free Lunch <lu...@nofreelunch.us> wrote:
On Sat, 20 Oct 2007 18:47:44 -0700, in alt.atheism
Michael Ejercito <mejer...@hotmail.com> wrote in
<1192931264.087934.116...@e9g2000prf.googlegroups.com>:
On Oct 20, 1:54 pm, maff <maf...@yahoo.com> wrote:
Sorry for the Torture -- Let's Keep on Torturinghttp://matthewyglesias.theatlantic.com/archives/2007/10/sorry_for_the...
19 Oct 2007 11:03 pm
Maher Arar wasn't able to appear in person at a congressional hearing
on his case because he's still on a US government watchlist. He was,
however, available via videoconference. Bill Delahunt (D-MA)
apologized personally, doing what the Bush administration won't do on
behalf of the country. And then:
Republican Dana Rohrabacher also apologized, but said he would fight
any efforts by Democrats to end the practice of extraordinary
rendition, whereby terror suspects are grabbed by government agents
and taken to another country where local authorities may torture
confessions out of them.
The local authorities bear responsibility for the torture.
So do the Americans who turn the people over knowing they will be
tortured.
The Americans do not bear the GUILT though.
I know this because according to the Bible
The Bible is *****.
God turns people over
to the lake of fire knowing that they will be tortured forever and
ever.
Making him the most immoral torturer of all time.
Show me where in the Bible that it is stated that God administers
the tortures, and I will reconsider my position.
If people bore guilt of torture for turning people over knowing
that they will be tortured, then this means God bears the guilt for
the torture in Hell - a contradiction.
Only to the terminally stupid.
It is a proof by contradiction; it is no my fault you do not
understand the concept of proof by contradiction.
Michael
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| User: "Al Klein" |
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| Title: Re: OT: Sorry for the Torture -- Let's Keep on Torturing |
22 Oct 2007 07:41:36 AM |
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On Sun, 21 Oct 2007 20:16:32 -0700, Michael Ejercito
<mejercit@hotmail.com> wrote:
Show me where in the Bible that it is stated that God administers
the tortures, and I will reconsider my position.
No you won't. Your religion claims that ALL things are your god's
will. "All" doesn't leave any room for things that aren't. Therefore,
he administers the tortures, he decides who gets tortured, he created
the tortures, etc. It's ALL his doing, so it's ALL his
responsibility.
If people bore guilt of torture for turning people over knowing
that they will be tortured, then this means God bears the guilt for
the torture in Hell - a contradiction.
Only to the terminally stupid.
It is a proof by contradiction; it is no my fault you do not
understand the concept of proof by contradiction.
No, it's proof by redefinition, which is a fallacy. You can't SHOW
that anything your god does is good, all you can do is DEFINE it so.
--
Al at Webdingers dot com
"Sarah, if the American people had ever known the truth about what we Bushes have done
to this nation, we would be chased down in the streets and lynched."
-George H. W. Bush, spoken in an interview with Sarah McClendon, June 1992
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| User: "Michael Ejercito" |
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| Title: Re: OT: Sorry for the Torture -- Let's Keep on Torturing |
22 Oct 2007 11:05:21 AM |
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On Oct 22, 5:41 am, Al Klein <ruk...@pern.invalid> wrote:
On Sun, 21 Oct 2007 20:16:32 -0700, Michael Ejercito
<mejer...@hotmail.com> wrote:
Show me where in the Bible that it is stated that God administers
the tortures, and I will reconsider my position.
No you won't. Your religion claims that ALL things are your god's
will. "All" doesn't leave any room for things that aren't. Therefore,
he administers the tortures, he decides who gets tortured, he created
the tortures, etc. It's ALL his doing, so it's ALL his
responsibility.
If all things are God's will, then we do not have free will. If we
do not have free will, then we would not be capable of sin, which
would contradict what Christian theology teaches.
If people bore guilt of torture for turning people over knowing
that they will be tortured, then this means God bears the guilt for
the torture in Hell - a contradiction.
Only to the terminally stupid.
It is a proof by contradiction; it is no my fault you do not
understand the concept of proof by contradiction.
No, it's proof by redefinition, which is a fallacy. You can't SHOW
that anything your god does is good, all you can do is DEFINE it so.
f course I define it so.
God, by virtue of His station as Lord of Lords and King of Kings,
DEFINES good.
Michael
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| User: "Rev. Karl E. Taylor" |
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| Title: Re: OT: Sorry for the Torture -- Let's Keep on Torturing |
22 Oct 2007 04:29:02 PM |
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Michael Ejercito wrote:
On Oct 22, 5:41 am, Al Klein <ruk...@pern.invalid> wrote:
On Sun, 21 Oct 2007 20:16:32 -0700, Michael Ejercito
<mejer...@hotmail.com> wrote:
Show me where in the Bible that it is stated that God administers
the tortures, and I will reconsider my position.
No you won't. Your religion claims that ALL things are your god's
will. "All" doesn't leave any room for things that aren't. Therefore,
he administers the tortures, he decides who gets tortured, he created
the tortures, etc. It's ALL his doing, so it's ALL his
responsibility.
If all things are God's will, then we do not have free will. If we
do not have free will, then we would not be capable of sin, which
would contradict what Christian theology teaches.
If people bore guilt of torture for turning people over knowing
that they will be tortured, then this means God bears the guilt for
the torture in Hell - a contradiction.
Only to the terminally stupid.
It is a proof by contradiction; it is no my fault you do not
understand the concept of proof by contradiction.
No, it's proof by redefinition, which is a fallacy. You can't SHOW
that anything your god does is good, all you can do is DEFINE it so.
f course I define it so.
God, by virtue of His station as Lord of Lords and King of Kings,
DEFINES good.
Only in your imagination. The voices in your head mean nothing to the
rest of the world, other then to cause much laughter at your foolishness.
Consider yourself fortunate. You have value only as comedic relief.
--
There are none more ignorant and useless,
than they that seek answers on their knees,
with their eyes closed.
____________________________________________________________________
Rev. Karl E. Taylor
A.A #1143 PLONKED by Bob
Apostle of Dr. Lao EAC: Virgin Conversion Unit Director
____________________________________________________________________
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| User: "Michael Ejercito" |
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| Title: Re: OT: Sorry for the Torture -- Let's Keep on Torturing |
22 Oct 2007 08:45:30 PM |
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On Oct 22, 2:29 pm, "Rev. Karl E. Taylor" <ktaylo...@getnet.net>
wrote:
Michael Ejercito wrote:
On Oct 22, 5:41 am, Al Klein <ruk...@pern.invalid> wrote:
On Sun, 21 Oct 2007 20:16:32 -0700, Michael Ejercito
<mejer...@hotmail.com> wrote:
Show me where in the Bible that it is stated that God administers
the tortures, and I will reconsider my position.
No you won't. Your religion claims that ALL things are your god's
will. "All" doesn't leave any room for things that aren't. Therefore,
he administers the tortures, he decides who gets tortured, he created
the tortures, etc. It's ALL his doing, so it's ALL his
responsibility.
If all things are God's will, then we do not have free will. If we
do not have free will, then we would not be capable of sin, which
would contradict what Christian theology teaches.
If people bore guilt of torture for turning people over knowing
that they will be tortured, then this means God bears the guilt for
the torture in Hell - a contradiction.
Only to the terminally stupid.
It is a proof by contradiction; it is no my fault you do not
understand the concept of proof by contradiction.
No, it's proof by redefinition, which is a fallacy. You can't SHOW
that anything your god does is good, all you can do is DEFINE it so.
f course I define it so.
God, by virtue of His station as Lord of Lords and King of Kings,
DEFINES good.
Only in your imagination. The voices in your head mean nothing to the
rest of the world, other then to cause much laughter at your foolishness.
Billions of people worship the same God that I do.
Michael
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| User: "Rev. Karl E. Taylor" |
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| Title: Re: OT: Sorry for the Torture -- Let's Keep on Torturing |
22 Oct 2007 08:58:41 PM |
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Michael Ejercito wrote:
On Oct 22, 2:29 pm, "Rev. Karl E. Taylor" <ktaylo...@getnet.net>
wrote:
Michael Ejercito wrote:
On Oct 22, 5:41 am, Al Klein <ruk...@pern.invalid> wrote:
On Sun, 21 Oct 2007 20:16:32 -0700, Michael Ejercito
<mejer...@hotmail.com> wrote:
Show me where in the Bible that it is stated that God administers
the tortures, and I will reconsider my position.
No you won't. Your religion claims that ALL things are your god's
will. "All" doesn't leave any room for things that aren't. Therefore,
he administers the tortures, he decides who gets tortured, he created
the tortures, etc. It's ALL his doing, so it's ALL his
responsibility.
If all things are God's will, then we do not have free will. If we
do not have free will, then we would not be capable of sin, which
would contradict what Christian theology teaches.
If people bore guilt of torture for turning people over knowing
that they will be tortured, then this means God bears the guilt for
the torture in Hell - a contradiction.
Only to the terminally stupid.
It is a proof by contradiction; it is no my fault you do not
understand the concept of proof by contradiction.
No, it's proof by redefinition, which is a fallacy. You can't SHOW
that anything your god does is good, all you can do is DEFINE it so.
f course I define it so.
God, by virtue of His station as Lord of Lords and King of Kings,
DEFINES good.
Only in your imagination. The voices in your head mean nothing to the
rest of the world, other then to cause much laughter at your foolishness.
Billions of people worship the same God that I do.
And out of 6.7 billion people in this world, you're still the minority.
You are wrong and will fail.
Grow up.
--
There are none more ignorant and useless,
than they that seek answers on their knees,
with their eyes closed.
____________________________________________________________________
Rev. Karl E. Taylor
A.A #1143 PLONKED by Bob
Apostle of Dr. Lao EAC: Virgin Conversion Unit Director
____________________________________________________________________
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| User: "Ye Old One" |
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| Title: Re: Re: OT: Sorry for the Torture -- Let's Keep on Torturing |
23 Oct 2007 03:44:39 AM |
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On Mon, 22 Oct 2007 18:45:30 -0700, Michael Ejercito
<mejercit@hotmail.com> enriched this group when s/he wrote:
On Oct 22, 2:29 pm, "Rev. Karl E. Taylor" <ktaylo...@getnet.net>
wrote:
Michael Ejercito wrote:
On Oct 22, 5:41 am, Al Klein <ruk...@pern.invalid> wrote:
On Sun, 21 Oct 2007 20:16:32 -0700, Michael Ejercito
<mejer...@hotmail.com> wrote:
Show me where in the Bible that it is stated that God administers
the tortures, and I will reconsider my position.
No you won't. Your religion claims that ALL things are your god's
will. "All" doesn't leave any room for things that aren't. Therefore,
he administers the tortures, he decides who gets tortured, he created
the tortures, etc. It's ALL his doing, so it's ALL his
responsibility.
If all things are God's will, then we do not have free will. If we
do not have free will, then we would not be capable of sin, which
would contradict what Christian theology teaches.
If people bore guilt of torture for turning people over knowing
that they will be tortured, then this means God bears the guilt for
the torture in Hell - a contradiction.
Only to the terminally stupid.
It is a proof by contradiction; it is no my fault you do not
understand the concept of proof by contradiction.
No, it's proof by redefinition, which is a fallacy. You can't SHOW
that anything your god does is good, all you can do is DEFINE it so.
f course I define it so.
God, by virtue of His station as Lord of Lords and King of Kings,
DEFINES good.
Only in your imagination. The voices in your head mean nothing to the
rest of the world, other then to cause much laughter at your foolishness.
Billions of people worship the same God that I do.
But more worship others.
Michael
--
Bob.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: OT: Sorry for the Torture -- Let's Keep on Torturing |
23 Oct 2007 08:59:20 PM |
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On Tue, 23 Oct 2007 08:44:39 GMT, Ye Old One <usenet@mcsuk.net> wrote:
On Mon, 22 Oct 2007 18:45:30 -0700, Michael Ejercito
<mejercit@hotmail.com> enriched this group when s/he wrote:
On Oct 22, 2:29 pm, "Rev. Karl E. Taylor" <ktaylo...@getnet.net>
wrote:
Michael Ejercito wrote:
On Oct 22, 5:41 am, Al Klein <ruk...@pern.invalid> wrote:
On Sun, 21 Oct 2007 20:16:32 -0700, Michael Ejercito
<mejer...@hotmail.com> wrote:
Show me where in the Bible that it is stated that God administers
the tortures, and I will reconsider my position.
No you won't. Your religion claims that ALL things are your god's
will. "All" doesn't leave any room for things that aren't. Therefore,
he administers the tortures, he decides who gets tortured, he created
the tortures, etc. It's ALL his doing, so it's ALL his
responsibility.
If all things are God's will, then we do not have free will. If we
do not have free will, then we would not be capable of sin, which
would contradict what Christian theology teaches.
If people bore guilt of torture for turning people over knowing
that they will be tortured, then this means God bears the guilt for
the torture in Hell - a contradiction.
Only to the terminally stupid.
It is a proof by contradiction; it is no my fault you do not
understand the concept of proof by contradiction.
No, it's proof by redefinition, which is a fallacy. You can't SHOW
that anything your god does is good, all you can do is DEFINE it so.
f course I define it so.
God, by virtue of His station as Lord of Lords and King of Kings,
DEFINES good.
Only in your imagination. The voices in your head mean nothing to the
rest of the world, other then to cause much laughter at your foolishness.
Billions of people worship the same God that I do.
But more worship others.
And if all those people are even close to being right you atheists are
in deep, DEEP *****.
Michael
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| User: "Ye Old One" |
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| Title: Re: Re: OT: Sorry for the Torture -- Let's Keep on Torturing |
24 Oct 2007 04:33:15 AM |
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On Wed, 24 Oct 2007 01:59:20 GMT, enriched this
group when s/he wrote:
On Tue, 23 Oct 2007 08:44:39 GMT, Ye Old One <usenet@mcsuk.net> wrote:
On Mon, 22 Oct 2007 18:45:30 -0700, Michael Ejercito
<mejercit@hotmail.com> enriched this group when s/he wrote:
On Oct 22, 2:29 pm, "Rev. Karl E. Taylor" <ktaylo...@getnet.net>
wrote:
Michael Ejercito wrote:
On Oct 22, 5:41 am, Al Klein <ruk...@pern.invalid> wrote:
On Sun, 21 Oct 2007 20:16:32 -0700, Michael Ejercito
<mejer...@hotmail.com> wrote:
Show me where in the Bible that it is stated that God administers
the tortures, and I will reconsider my position.
No you won't. Your religion claims that ALL things are your god's
will. "All" doesn't leave any room for things that aren't. Therefore,
he administers the tortures, he decides who gets tortured, he created
the tortures, etc. It's ALL his doing, so it's ALL his
responsibility.
If all things are God's will, then we do not have free will. If we
do not have free will, then we would not be capable of sin, which
would contradict what Christian theology teaches.
If people bore guilt of torture for turning people over knowing
that they will be tortured, then this means God bears the guilt for
the torture in Hell - a contradiction.
Only to the terminally stupid.
It is a proof by contradiction; it is no my fault you do not
understand the concept of proof by contradiction.
No, it's proof by redefinition, which is a fallacy. You can't SHOW
that anything your god does is good, all you can do is DEFINE it so.
f course I define it so.
God, by virtue of His station as Lord of Lords and King of Kings,
DEFINES good.
Only in your imagination. The voices in your head mean nothing to the
rest of the world, other then to cause much laughter at your foolishness.
Billions of people worship the same God that I do.
But more worship others.
And if all those people are even close to being right you atheists are
in deep, DEEP *****.
Why?
--
Bob.
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