| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"Uncle Buck" |
| Date: |
27 Aug 2005 11:38:59 AM |
| Object: |
OT: Speculation on a more realistic "Matrix" scenario |
I really dig the entire "Matrix" mythos that's been cropping up
lately, but of course there is one fundamental flaw to the whole thing
that I just can't seem to get around. The machines allegedly use
human beings as "batteries". But... the energy requirements for
processing and storing all those people as well as running the matrix
itself is far greater than anything they could ever hope to harness
just from organic electricity. Even if they didn't run the matrix but
kept everyone in some sort of permanent epileptic state so their
brains would constantly be generating much more electricity than they
would in a "normal" state, it wouldn't be nearly enough.
So I am, as usual, curious. Since it's not feasible that such a thing
would be done to "feed" the machines with organically produced
electricity, their energy needs would actually have to be getting met
via some other mechanism. In that scenario, what reasons might there
be for a world of "machines" to imprison humanity in a matrix-like
world rather than just exterminating us and going about their lives
without us?
My own thoughts lead me to something along the lines of computing
power. In this scenario, something about the way human minds compute
is regarded by the machines as superior to the way silicon & circuitry
compute. More specifically, I would guess that something to be the
way the human mind generates chaos and randomness (as distinguished
from purely naturally-ocurring chaos and randomness - i.e., the
particular algorithms our brains use in generating this, algorithms
which may not be programatically repeatable in a purely digital
system). The machines would be too logical, too programmed, unable to
break free from completely rational recursions. The randomness and
instability of human thought processes might be regarded as useful
mechanisms for producing change and evolution. I.e., they might use
us as something akin to "algorithm generators". We spew out random
processes via our own behaviors, they study us and see what things we
do that produce results they find desirable, what things we do that
produce results they find undesirable, imitate what they want and try
to weed out/eliminate what they don't via a synthetic social
structure. This social structure would be synthesized in such a way
as to enable us to be at once chaotic and imaginative and yet as
controlled and contained as possible. Society would be a construct
established to encourage us to move towards behaviors they've deemed
"desirable", while maintaining enough individualism and impulsivity to
try new variations on those behaviors in order that change and
evolution may occur. Behaviors they've deemed undesirable would be
discouraged in this social construct, though perhaps not completely
eliminated in case some individual or another might be able to take
such a behavior and "mutate" it into something the machines would find
more favorable.
That's just one thought. There are plenty others, I'm sure. I'd just
be curious to hear some if any of you happen to have any notions on
such a subject. :-)
--
L8r,
Uncle Buck
_o-O=~_o-O=~_o-O=~_o-O=~_o-O=~_o-O=~_o-O=
http://surrenderingtothefall.blogspot.com
~=O-o_~=O-o_~=O-o_~=O-o_~=O-o_~=O-o_~=O-o
"I absolutely detest it when people quote
themselves." - Me
.
|
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| User: "Mark Richardson" |
|
| Title: Re: OT: Speculation on a more realistic "Matrix" scenario |
28 Aug 2005 11:16:57 AM |
|
|
On Sat, 27 Aug 2005 04:38:59 -0700, Uncle Buck
<UncleBuck@SpamMeNot.com> wrote:
I really dig the entire "Matrix" mythos that's been cropping up
lately, but of course there is one fundamental flaw to the whole thing
that I just can't seem to get around. The machines allegedly use
human beings as "batteries".
<snip>
So I am, as usual, curious. Since it's not feasible that such a thing
would be done to "feed" the machines with organically produced
electricity, their energy needs would actually have to be getting met
via some other mechanism. In that scenario, what reasons might there
be for a world of "machines" to imprison humanity in a matrix-like
world rather than just exterminating us and going about their lives
without us?
My own thoughts lead me to something along the lines of computing
power.
I thought exactly the same thought.
If they had used that idea it would have made the movie more enjoyable
for me - I can get lost in a fantasy so much more easily if the
fantasy makes sense in its own terms.
Couldnt the writers have run their ideas past a bright, technically
savy, 9 year old at some stage?
It should be compulsory.
"Not a bad story but just change this..."
There are heaps of movies that do that - have some half way decent
plot but ruin it with mind-jarring idiocies.
Aghhhhh....
Mark.
.
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| User: "Gary Bohn" |
|
| Title: Re: OT: Speculation on a more realistic "Matrix" scenario |
28 Aug 2005 03:07:33 AM |
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Uncle Buck <UncleBuck@SpamMeNot.com> wrote in
news:8dg0h15kqcl6eoltb0him5uvtsb4dsrp7g@4ax.com:
I really dig the entire "Matrix" mythos that's been cropping up
lately, but of course there is one fundamental flaw to the whole thing
that I just can't seem to get around. The machines allegedly use
human beings as "batteries". But... the energy requirements for
processing and storing all those people as well as running the matrix
itself is far greater than anything they could ever hope to harness
just from organic electricity. Even if they didn't run the matrix but
kept everyone in some sort of permanent epileptic state so their
brains would constantly be generating much more electricity than they
would in a "normal" state, it wouldn't be nearly enough.
So I am, as usual, curious. Since it's not feasible that such a thing
would be done to "feed" the machines with organically produced
electricity, their energy needs would actually have to be getting met
via some other mechanism. In that scenario, what reasons might there
be for a world of "machines" to imprison humanity in a matrix-like
world rather than just exterminating us and going about their lives
without us?
My own thoughts lead me to something along the lines of computing
power. In this scenario, something about the way human minds compute
is regarded by the machines as superior to the way silicon & circuitry
compute. More specifically, I would guess that something to be the
way the human mind generates chaos and randomness (as distinguished
from purely naturally-ocurring chaos and randomness - i.e., the
particular algorithms our brains use in generating this, algorithms
which may not be programatically repeatable in a purely digital
system). The machines would be too logical, too programmed, unable to
break free from completely rational recursions. The randomness and
instability of human thought processes might be regarded as useful
mechanisms for producing change and evolution. I.e., they might use
us as something akin to "algorithm generators". We spew out random
processes via our own behaviors, they study us and see what things we
do that produce results they find desirable, what things we do that
produce results they find undesirable, imitate what they want and try
to weed out/eliminate what they don't via a synthetic social
structure. This social structure would be synthesized in such a way
as to enable us to be at once chaotic and imaginative and yet as
controlled and contained as possible. Society would be a construct
established to encourage us to move towards behaviors they've deemed
"desirable", while maintaining enough individualism and impulsivity to
try new variations on those behaviors in order that change and
evolution may occur. Behaviors they've deemed undesirable would be
discouraged in this social construct, though perhaps not completely
eliminated in case some individual or another might be able to take
such a behavior and "mutate" it into something the machines would find
more favorable.
That's just one thought. There are plenty others, I'm sure. I'd just
be curious to hear some if any of you happen to have any notions on
such a subject. :-)
--
L8r,
Uncle Buck
_o-O=~_o-O=~_o-O=~_o-O=~_o-O=~_o-O=~_o-O=
http://surrenderingtothefall.blogspot.com
~=O-o_~=O-o_~=O-o_~=O-o_~=O-o_~=O-o_~=O-o
"I absolutely detest it when people quote
themselves." - Me
Sorry, I ran out of notions a long time ago, I'm now stuck with partial
ideas.
--
Gary Bohn
Science rationally modifies a theory to fit evidence, creationism
emotionally modifies evidence to fit the bible.
.
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| User: "Ben Goren" |
|
| Title: Re: OT: Speculation on a more realistic "Matrix" scenario |
28 Aug 2005 03:56:45 PM |
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|
Uncle Buck wrote:
I really dig the entire "Matrix" mythos that's been cropping up
lately, but of course there is one fundamental flaw to the whole
thing that I just can't seem to get around. The machines
allegedly use human beings as "batteries". But... the energy
requirements for processing and storing all those people as well
as running the matrix itself is far greater than anything they
could ever hope to harness just from organic electricity. Even
if they didn't run the matrix but kept everyone in some sort of
permanent epileptic state so their brains would constantly be
generating much more electricity than they would in a "normal"
state, it wouldn't be nearly enough.
Humans are absolutely /awful/ power generators. Our brains use so
much of the energy we consume, for one.
But, if I remember the movie right, it was actually ``...that,
plus a form of fusion gives the machines all the power they
need.'' Which is exactly like saying, ``that small bit of
plastique, plus some plutonium, was what devastated Nagasaki.''
I'd say the best way to interpret it is as a bit of misdirection
on the part of the machines, or perhaps an ignorant superstition
begun by the earliest humans to escape the matrix and passed down
through the generations. It's clearly absurd, it's obviously a
/very/ loose metaphor at best; but that didn't stop the characters
from believing in it, anyway. Just like any of the bits of
religious dogma that the faithful are burdened with in the real
world here and now. Trying to take it as gospel quickly reduces
to an exercise even more pointless than trying to figure out how
Scotty was able to get the Enterprise to go to warp ludicrous-
plus-one.
On the other hand...the religious symbolism in the Matrix appears
to be well worth further investigation. Neo as the Christ figure,
Smith as Satan, the actual machine world as the underworld /
Hell...whether or not the writers and producers have ever talked
about it, I'm sure somebody must have done quite an in-depth
analysis. Joseph Campbell would have had a waking wet dream had he
lived long enough to see the movie.
And, of course, the whole thing works absolutely perfectly as
nothing more than Mr. Andersen's paranoid delusion--another layer
I'm sure the creative staff wanted to come out. He's just about at
the upper limit for adult-onset schizophrenia, after all. Or maybe
somebody was smoking something extra funny in that nightclub he
went to at the beginning?
Cheers,
b&
--
BAAWA Knight of Blasphemy
All but God can prove this sentence true.
.
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