| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"maff" |
| Date: |
13 Nov 2004 05:43:17 AM |
| Object: |
OT: Talking tough in Gaza |
Talking tough in Gaza
http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,2763,1348936,00.html
Ariel Sharon has won the first vote in the Israeli parliament for his
plan to evacuate the settlements in the Gaza Strip. There have been
accusations of betrayal and even talk of civil war. Are the Gaza
settlers really considering taking up arms to resist eviction? Linda
Grant went to their towns and villages to find out
Read part two of Talking tough in Gaza
http://www.guardian.co.uk/weekend/story/0,3605,1348920,00.html
Saturday November 13, 2004
The Guardian
At 8.30 in the evening, two-and-a-half weeks ago, the Knesset, the
Israeli parliament in Jerusalem, voted with a sizeable majority to
evacuate Israeli settlers from the occupied Gaza Strip. Around the
world, people watched on television as an angry mob of baying
protesters outside the building screamed abuse and waved the yellow
flags of the banned far-right organisation Kach. Framed by the TV
screen, they seemed to number in their thousands, a fanatical army
determined to thwart the will of their elected representatives with
dire warnings of civil war, assassination of the prime minister, Ariel
Sharon, and cries of "Death to the Arabs". But on the ground another
picture was visible, a thin line of no more than 100 or so who were
outnumbered by press and police. Few were from Gaza itself.
Linda Grant
http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&selm=18510aff.0404080138.70698a57%40posting.google.com
Gaza
http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&selm=18510aff.0410180216.22f435a%40posting.google.com
Israel
http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&selm=18510aff.0410220151.2c256ad%40posting.google.com
Palestine
http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&selm=18510aff.0411120115.5a4f5f6a%40posting.google.com
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| User: "Rune Børsjø" |
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| Title: Re: OT: Talking tough in Gaza |
13 Nov 2004 07:07:35 AM |
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On 13 Nov 2004 03:43:17 -0800, (maff) wrote:
Ariel Sharon has won the first vote in the Israeli parliament for his
plan to evacuate the settlements in the Gaza Strip. There have been
accusations of betrayal and even talk of civil war. Are the Gaza
settlers really considering taking up arms to resist eviction? Linda
Grant went to their towns and villages to find out
Why should they move? To please the muslims who will not recognize
Israel, and it's people's, right to exist in the first place? Israel
won it fair and square in one of their many defensive wars. Areas that
are important in creating a security barrier around the rest of
Israel.
What is this prevailing hysteria and hypocrisy that makes it alright
to defend yourself, life, liberty... unless you're jewish?
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| User: "Meteorite Debris" |
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| Title: Re: OT: Talking tough in Gaza |
13 Nov 2004 04:48:45 PM |
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On Sat, 13 Nov 2004 14:07:35 +0100 the ET form known as Rune
Børsjø<buggeroffm@te.com> sent a radio signal across the vast expanse
of deep space -._.--._.--._.--._.--._.--._.
On 13 Nov 2004 03:43:17 -0800, (maff) wrote:
Ariel Sharon has won the first vote in the Israeli parliament for his
plan to evacuate the settlements in the Gaza Strip. There have been
accusations of betrayal and even talk of civil war. Are the Gaza
settlers really considering taking up arms to resist eviction? Linda
Grant went to their towns and villages to find out
Why should they move? To please the muslims who will not recognize
Israel, and it's people's, right to exist in the first place? Israel
won it fair and square in one of their many defensive wars. Areas that
are important in creating a security barrier around the rest of
Israel.
Gaza and the West Bank constitute just 22% of what was Palestine. But
that 22% is cris crossed with Israeli towns connected with Israeli
only roads. To move from one town to another town Palestinians must
wait hours at check points, even if on the way to hospital. One female
terrorist was an ambulance worker who watched a mother die in labour
as Israeli soldiers laughed at her suffering as they made the
expectant mother wait in pain and eventually die. This is an everyday
taunt. This humiliation is everyday. Kids get shot at on the street
and then the Israeli military use their propaganda to lie it away.
Journalists and other independent witnesses are not allowed into these
areas but when they have defied the authorities and gone there anyway
their reports have always differed from the official Israeli position.
85% of the West Bank's water is diverted to Israeli settlements and to
Israel proper while Palestinians go without for 3 or 4 days at a time.
At an absolute minimum the Israelis should leave the West Bank and
Gaza. Sure it might please Muslims. It might also please the
Christians who are also Palestinians. And it might also please
peace activists who do not believe that conquest should be
rewarded by condoned exploitation of conquered territory. This is
stolen land land from the 1967 war. They have absolutely no right to
it. The West Bank is about water and so is the Golan Heights. Remember
that Israel bombed a dam building site of the Syrians in the Golan
Heights in 1965.
Unfortunately we know that Israel can not give up its' conquered
territory because Israel simply needs the water. A better life for
Palestinians would mean water shortages for Israel. Palestinians
therefore have to go without. Michael T Klare, author of Resource
Wars, has identified Israel/Palestine as one of four water critical
areas in the world likely to erupt in conflict.
What is this prevailing hysteria and hypocrisy that makes it alright
to defend yourself, life, liberty... unless you're jewish?
Rune, this is unfair. Conquering territory is criticised no matter who
does it. Detention without trial is criticised around the world no
matter who does it. Firing rockets into crowded streets is criticized
no matter who does it. Israel has a long history of terrorism starting
in 1948. The King David hotel bombing was done by a terrorist who
latter became Prime Minister - Menachem Begin. You might call bombing
hotels "fair and square" but I call it a war crime. You might call
kidnapping enemies in other countries "fair and square" but I call it
illegal. Whatever happened to extradition and the process of law?
I think what the Israelis have been doing might be called self defence
if apartheid and all the abuses of power that went with it can be
called self defence. Killing people in crowded street from helicopter
gunships is a war crime. Imagine Rune if someone wanted, maybe wanted
for something really serious like terrorism, is on a street if the
police launched a missile from a helicopter gunship killing him, seven
others nearby, and wounding 20 others as well. Imagine you are
witnessing this with a little child holding your hand. Whatever
happened to the idea of arrest and trial, you know those old fashioned
concepts.
--
epicurus1*at*optusnet*dot*com*dot*au
apatriot #1, atheist #1417,
Chief EAC prophet
http://members.optusnet.com.au/~pk1956/
Apatriotism Yahoo Group
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/apatriotism
"Properly read, the Bible is the most potent force for atheism ever
conceived." - Isaac Asimov
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| User: "Christopher A. Lee" |
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| Title: Re: OT: Talking tough in Gaza |
13 Nov 2004 07:18:06 AM |
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On Sat, 13 Nov 2004 14:07:35 +0100, Rune Børsjø <buggeroffm@te.com>
wrote:
On 13 Nov 2004 03:43:17 -0800, (maff) wrote:
Ariel Sharon has won the first vote in the Israeli parliament for his
plan to evacuate the settlements in the Gaza Strip. There have been
accusations of betrayal and even talk of civil war. Are the Gaza
settlers really considering taking up arms to resist eviction? Linda
Grant went to their towns and villages to find out
More of the same ethnic cleansing Sharon has been doing for more than
50 years.
Why should they move? To please the muslims who will not recognize
Israel, and it's people's, right to exist in the first place? Israel
won it fair and square in one of their many defensive wars. Areas that
are important in creating a security barrier around the rest of
Israel.
No. They didn't.
The "International Community" gave land that wasn't theirs to give, to
create the new country. The Palestinians are the people who were
already there.
Sharon was a terrorist prior to the new country, and afterwards
ethnically cleansed the previous inhabitants.
What is this prevailing hysteria and hypocrisy that makes it alright
to defend yourself, life, liberty... unless you're jewish?
Strawman.
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| User: "Rune Børsjø" |
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| Title: Re: OT: Talking tough in Gaza |
13 Nov 2004 08:04:36 AM |
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On Sat, 13 Nov 2004 13:18:06 GMT, Christopher A. Lee
<calee@optonline.net> wrote:
The "International Community" gave land that wasn't theirs to give, to
create the new country. The Palestinians are the people who were
already there.
There were both palestinians and jews. There are still, both
palestinians and jews. What's done is done. Get on with it, for fucks
sake. Or do you also advocate throwing out and displacing all
americans and returning the land to the natives? "Oh no, that's
_different_." The ***** it is.
Sharon was a terrorist prior to the new country, and afterwards
ethnically cleansed the previous inhabitants.
You support the ethnic cleansing of albanians by serbs though, don't
you? I mean, after all, it was serbian land. They were just defending
themselves from occupation. Right?
Geeze Christopher, you gotta lighten up on the double standards and
doubletalk. If you really want to believe in peace, liberty and
justice for all, get your facts straight before you start ranting.
Strawman.
How so? There is clearly a huge double standard at work.
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| User: "Christopher A. Lee" |
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| Title: Re: OT: Talking tough in Gaza |
13 Nov 2004 08:32:09 AM |
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On Sat, 13 Nov 2004 15:04:36 +0100, Rune Børsjø <buggeroffm@te.com>
wrote:
On Sat, 13 Nov 2004 13:18:06 GMT, Christopher A. Lee
<calee@optonline.net> wrote:
The "International Community" gave land that wasn't theirs to give, to
create the new country. The Palestinians are the people who were
already there.
There were both palestinians and jews.
Mostly Palestinians. The Country was called Palestine.
There are still, both
palestinians and jews. What's done is done. Get on with it, for fucks
sake. Or do you also advocate throwing out and displacing all
americans and returning the land to the natives? "Oh no, that's
_different_." The ***** it is.
If I'd meant that I would have said it.
Sharon was a terrorist prior to the new country, and afterwards
ethnically cleansed the previous inhabitants.
You support the ethnic cleansing of albanians by serbs though, don't
you? I mean, after all, it was serbian land. They were just defending
themselves from occupation. Right?
Where did I say that, liar?
Geeze Christopher, you gotta lighten up on the double standards and
doubletalk. If you really want to believe in peace, liberty and
justice for all, get your facts straight before you start ranting.
What "double standards and double talk", liar?
Strawman.
How so? There is clearly a huge double standard at work.
Why do you lie.
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| User: "Dubh Ghall" |
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| Title: Re: OT: Talking tough in Gaza |
14 Nov 2004 10:35:52 AM |
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On Sat, 13 Nov 2004 14:07:35 +0100, Rune Børsjø <buggeroffm@te.com> wrote:
On 13 Nov 2004 03:43:17 -0800, (maff) wrote:
Ariel Sharon has won the first vote in the Israeli parliament for his
plan to evacuate the settlements in the Gaza Strip. There have been
accusations of betrayal and even talk of civil war. Are the Gaza
settlers really considering taking up arms to resist eviction? Linda
Grant went to their towns and villages to find out
Why should they move? To please the muslims who will not recognize
Israel, and it's people's, right to exist in the first place? Israel
won it fair and square in one of their many defensive wars. Areas that
are important in creating a security barrier around the rest of
Israel.
Yea. Fighter planes, rockets, tanks, and helicopter gunships, against beggar's
bullets.
Some war, some need for defense.
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| User: "maff" |
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| Title: OT: Sudetenland |
13 Nov 2004 03:04:24 PM |
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Rune Børsjø <buggeroffm@te.com> wrote in message news:<nj1cp0dl21tr99nvv96knu945kr2i2njvj@4ax.com>...
On 13 Nov 2004 03:43:17 -0800, (maff) wrote:
Ariel Sharon has won the first vote in the Israeli parliament for his
plan to evacuate the settlements in the Gaza Strip. There have been
accusations of betrayal and even talk of civil war. Are the Gaza
settlers really considering taking up arms to resist eviction? Linda
Grant went to their towns and villages to find out
Why should they move? To please the muslims who will not recognize
Israel, and it's people's, right to exist in the first place? Israel
won it fair and square in one of their many defensive wars. Areas that
are important in creating a security barrier around the rest of
Israel.
What is this prevailing hysteria and hypocrisy that makes it alright
to defend yourself, life, liberty... unless you're jewish?
So would you say Nazi Germany won Sudetenland and most of Europe fair
and square? No one is above International law.
Sudetenland
http://news.google.com/news?num=100&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=Sudetenland&sa=N&tab=gn
http://www.google.com/search?num=100&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=Sudetenland&sa=N&tab=nw
http://www.google.com/search?num=100&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=Sudetenland&sa=N&tab=wd&cat=gwd%2FTop
http://groups.google.com/groups?num=100&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&cat=&q=Sudetenland&sa=N&tab=dg
Albert Einstein's words must be heeded......
http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&selm=3d4d8607_1%40news.iprimus.com.au
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| User: "Rune Børsjø" |
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| Title: Re: OT: Sudetenland |
14 Nov 2004 12:41:44 AM |
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On 13 Nov 2004 13:04:24 -0800, (maff) wrote:
So would you say Nazi Germany won Sudetenland and most of Europe fair
and square? No one is above International law.
Try to understand the difference, Maff. Israel waged 8 defensive wars,
in which these areas were frequently used to launch mortars into
israeli towns and cities, and as strategic staging grounds. When
you're charged with the defense of six million people and you're
surrounded by hundreds of million who want to kill you, and have tried
to do so on a regular basis, you do what you can to protect yourself.
Once again, I put it to you... why are jews not allowed to defend
themselves? If this was any other country they would have launched all
out invasions and occupations long ago.
So what's with the double standard?
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| User: "maff" |
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| Title: Re: OT: Sudetenland |
14 Nov 2004 08:30:02 AM |
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Rune Børsjø <buggeroffm@te.com> wrote in message news:<n9vdp05d6247032gjn7hfc6n5ua1ihlifv@4ax.com>...
On 13 Nov 2004 13:04:24 -0800, (maff) wrote:
So would you say Nazi Germany won Sudetenland and most of Europe fair
and square? No one is above International law.
Try to understand the difference, Maff. Israel waged 8 defensive wars,
That's Nazis also said in every war they engaged in. Have you known
any Arab country wage war on Europe and won in the last 200 years? For
all purposes, Israel is an European country.
Israel's violent birth
http://www.guardian.co.uk/weblog/special/0,10627,533512,00.html
From the long archives of Atlantic Monthly, this is an account by US
artist George Biddle of his visit to the year-old state of Israel. He
describes the 'misery' of the Arab population after defeat in the 1948
war, but mostly expresses himself in terms of western political
objectives: 'I felt then, as events have shown, that the Arabs were
about as dangerous as so many North American Indians in modern
mechanised war.'
The six-day war
http://www.theatlantic.com/unbound/flashbks/mideast/yost.htm
Israel twice attempted to take control of the Sinai peninsula:
temporarily in 1956, with the help of Britain and France, after Nasser
had nationalised the Suez canal; and successfully in 1967, inflicting
a crushing defeat during the six-day war. In 1969 - 10 years before
Israel again withdrew - Charles Yost outlined in Atlantic Monthly the
dogmatic 'myths' that remained obstacles to peace. It is interesting
to count how few of these dogmas have been renounced.
in which these areas were frequently used to launch mortars into
israeli towns and cities, and as strategic staging grounds. When
you're charged with the defense of six million people and you're
surrounded by hundreds of million who want to kill you, and have tried
to do so on a regular basis, you do what you can to protect yourself.
Are you an apologist for Bushie fascists? That's what they also say.
Likudnik fascists have more in common with the Nazis than anyone else.
Why do you think Einstein wrote that letter to New York Times?
Once again, I put it to you... why are jews not allowed to defend
themselves? If this was any other country they would have launched all
out invasions and occupations long ago.
So what's with the double standard?
There are no double standards in International law. It's Likudnik
fascists and Bushie fascists who are flouting International law.
You're conflating Jews with Israel. They aren't the same.
Israel is the Superpower in the region.It's Israel who's occupying
other countries and territories. Sooner or later, those war criminals
have to pay the price like the Nazis.
Sooner or later, the rest of the World is going to say 'enough is
enough'.
Israelis fear war crimes arrests
http://www.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,3604,838160,00.html
Chris McGreal in Jerusalem
November 12 2002
The Israeli government has ordered an urgent assessment of whether its
politicians and soldiers could face arrest and trial for war crimes
while travelling abroad.
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