| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"Bob Dog" |
| Date: |
26 May 2004 03:12:31 AM |
| Object: |
[OT] The last of the triumvirate speaks out |
Following in the footsteps of his contemporaries and personal
friends Harry Belafonte and Sidney Poitier, Bill Cosby finally
speaks out on the problems of blacks in the US. I thought no
less of him for not speaking out before, but it's nice to see
a man of such distinguished character and respect speaking out
because people have to take this funny man seriously.
Bravo, Bill. You have always been one of my personal heroes.
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=1317&ncid=742&e=11&u=/ucas/20040526/cm_ucas/billcosbyspointedremarksmaysparkmuchneededdebate
And keep on topic a little, Cosby is a religious man who keeps
it to himself, never flouting it in public. His "Noah and god"
comedy sketches don't count toward that.
Bob Dog
-----------------------------------------------------------------
BILL COSBY'S POINTED REMARKS MAY SPARK MUCH-NEEDED DEBATE
Tue May 25, 8:02 PM ET
By Cynthia Tucker
Never mind Howard University. The administration of the
Washington, D.C., institution is apparently in a bit of a huff
because Bill Cosby used its podium to criticize the failings of
black America -- especially its underclass. Howard's leaders,
who won't release a transcript of Cosby's speech, are still not
prepared to have a public discussion of self-inflicted wounds.
But much of black America, especially its middle class, is ready
to have that conversation. In that sense, Cosby's speech was a
watershed event -- a sign that black America is now comfortable
enough with its accomplishments to discuss its shortcomings.
"Perhaps Bill did us a favor," says NAACP President Kweisi
Mfume, who attended the ceremony, "and more people will now be
prepared to step forward. It'll be a tough-love conversation,
whether or not people want to have it. And it will take opinion
leaders to say those things that should be said."
Not all black Americans agree with the remarks Cosby made at a
May 17 celebration of the 50th anniversary of the U.S. Supreme
Court's Brown v. Board of Education decision. Indeed, his
criticism of everything from speech patterns to spending habits
among the black poor was pointedly politically incorrect.
"Ladies and gentlemen, the lower economic people are not holding
up their end in this deal," he said. "These people are not
parenting. They are buying things for kids -- $500 sneakers for
what? And won't spend $200 for 'Hooked on Phonics'" to improve
their children's reading and speech. Of the disproportionate
number of blacks in prison, Cosby had this to say: "These are
not political criminals. These are people going around stealing
Coca-Cola. People getting shot in the back of the head over a
piece of pound cake, and then we run out and we are outraged,
saying, 'The cops shouldn't have shot him.' What in the hell
was he doing with the pound cake in his hand?"
After the speech, Theodore Shaw, head of the NAACP legal defense
fund, rushed to the podium to serve up a rejoinder, noting that
larger (read "white") American society still bears some
responsibility for the failure of so many black Americans to
join the economic and cultural mainstream. That is clearly so.
But isn't it about time that black Americans acknowledge that,
at the dawn of the 21st century, personal responsibility has at
least as much to do with success in modern America as race? Isn't
it only fair to note that the landmark Supreme Court ruling of 50
years ago did roll back much of systemic racism?
After all, if you believe that racism continues to largely limit
black success, that will certainly prove itself true. "There is
no reason that black students have to do poorly in math and
science, in speech, in cognitive abilities," Mfume said. "When
you're quiet about those (shortcomings), young people notice,
and it sounds like you're giving your approval."
Some blacks have recoiled from Cosby's pointed remarks not
because they disagree but because they don't want to discuss
certain ignominious truths in front of white folks. They fear
such painful self-analysis will only provide fodder to the race-
baiters -- the Neal Boortzes and Rush Limbaughs -- who work hard
at stoking a white backlash. I'm sure Boortz and Limbaugh have
already made ample use of Cosby's speech to stir up racist rants
among a certain segment of their listeners. So what? They'd look
for excuses to poke the tender wounds of race, no matter what
Cosby had said.
It is more important that black Americans have a spirited debate
about the challenges of the post-civil rights era: How do we
raise the academic achievement of black students? How do we curb
black-on-black crime? How do we attack the AIDS epidemic
spreading like wildfire in black America?
In a way, Cosby's speech was an eloquent reminder of the stunning
success of the civil rights movement that followed the Brown
decision: Black America is strong enough and successful enough to
admit its shortcomings and gird itself for the work ahead.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
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| User: "SMChristenson" |
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| Title: Re: [OT] The last of the triumvirate speaks out |
26 May 2004 07:16:57 AM |
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On Wed, 26 May 2004 01:12:31 -0700, Bob Dog wrote:
Following in the footsteps of his contemporaries and personal friends
Harry Belafonte and Sidney Poitier, Bill Cosby finally speaks out on the
problems of blacks in the US. I thought no less of him for not speaking
out before, but it's nice to see a man of such distinguished character
and respect speaking out because people have to take this funny man
seriously.
Bravo, Bill. You have always been one of my personal heroes.
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=1317&ncid=742&e=11&u=/ucas/20040526/cm_ucas/billcosbyspointedremarksmaysparkmuchneededdebate
And keep on topic a little, Cosby is a religious man who keeps it to
himself, never flouting it in public. His "Noah and god" comedy
sketches don't count toward that.
Bob Dog
I'm a liberal who accepts that there are silly areas of blind political
correctness. And I think Cosby is right on target with this:
knuckledheaded parents.
The issue isn't "ebonics". How many countries are multicultural and
multi-language? If kids want to talk street talk among themselves, who
cares? And what educated person says the U.S. can't survive without being
a Roman lockstep monoculture?
But it falls precisely upon the parents to stress that their kids must
speak in the "educated" manner of the dominant culture at work, at school
and in the public forum if they want to be taken seriously. It seems to
me that the rest of the world recognizes this as obvious. A black family
in South Africa might speak Sotho yet still want their kids to speak
English properly and eloquently. The question is precisely why so many
African-American families seem to be so knuckleheaded in failing to see
the importance of this. Good for Cosby.
.
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| User: "Bob Dog" |
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| Title: Re: [OT] The last of the triumvirate speaks out |
27 May 2004 03:40:07 AM |
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SMChristenson <smchris@visi.com> wrote in message news:<pan.2004.05.26.12.16.56.336581@visi.com>...
On Wed, 26 May 2004 01:12:31 -0700, Bob Dog wrote:
Following in the footsteps of his contemporaries and personal friends
Harry Belafonte and Sidney Poitier, Bill Cosby finally speaks out on the
problems of blacks in the US. I thought no less of him for not speaking
out before, but it's nice to see a man of such distinguished character
and respect speaking out because people have to take this funny man
seriously.
Bravo, Bill. You have always been one of my personal heroes.
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=1317&ncid=742&e=11&u=/ucas/20040526/cm_ucas/billcosbyspointedremarksmaysparkmuchneededdebate
I'm a liberal who accepts that there are silly areas of blind political
correctness. And I think Cosby is right on target with this:
knuckledheaded parents.
It's not just the parents, it's everyone.
The issue isn't "ebonics". How many countries are multicultural and
multi-language? If kids want to talk street talk among themselves, who
cares? And what educated person says the U.S. can't survive without being
a Roman lockstep monoculture?
But it falls precisely upon the parents to stress that their kids must
speak in the "educated" manner of the dominant culture at work, at school
and in the public forum if they want to be taken seriously.
A la Harper Lee's "To Kill A Mockingbird", hm? It's less
about manner and more about who one is speaking to: talk
to your audience, not at them. I am equally appalled by
"rappahs" saying "y'knowwhati'msaying" every other sentence
as I am by British upper-crust snobs: this "drive to be
different" (read: better or cooler than you) isn't done to
bring people together, it's done to ostracize.
It seems to
me that the rest of the world recognizes this as obvious. A black family
in South Africa might speak Sotho yet still want their kids to speak
English properly and eloquently. The question is precisely why so many
African-American families seem to be so knuckleheaded in failing to see
the importance of this. Good for Cosby.
A writer, I forget whom, noted that Carribean and African
immigrants who come in with no money and start on the same
footing as black welfare recipients in the US work harder
and are successful employees or entrepreneurs. This has
nothing to do with skin, it's a created dependence on the
state that is now in its second generation. Many people
(in Canada too) have grown up on welfare and know no other
way, and the school system with it's "pass the class and
send them out on their *****" attitude doesn't encourage
individual achievement. We're all to blame, and we all
need to contribute to solve the problem.
Bob Dog
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| User: "anne marie hovgaard" |
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| Title: Re: [OT] The last of the triumvirate speaks out |
27 May 2004 11:25:58 AM |
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(Bob Dog) wrote in message news:<4fa573de.0405270040.807b2e3@posting.google.com>...
SMChristenson <smchris@visi.com> wrote in message news:<pan.2004.05.26.12.16.56.336581@visi.com>...
On Wed, 26 May 2004 01:12:31 -0700, Bob Dog wrote:
Following in the footsteps of his contemporaries and personal friends
Harry Belafonte and Sidney Poitier, Bill Cosby finally speaks out on the
problems of blacks in the US. I thought no less of him for not speaking
out before, but it's nice to see a man of such distinguished character
and respect speaking out because people have to take this funny man
seriously.
Bravo, Bill. You have always been one of my personal heroes.
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=1317&ncid=742&e=11&u=/ucas/20040526/cm_ucas/billcosbyspointedremarksmaysparkmuchneededdebate
I'm a liberal who accepts that there are silly areas of blind political
correctness. And I think Cosby is right on target with this:
knuckledheaded parents.
It's not just the parents, it's everyone.
The issue isn't "ebonics". How many countries are multicultural and
multi-language? If kids want to talk street talk among themselves, who
cares? And what educated person says the U.S. can't survive without being
a Roman lockstep monoculture?
But it falls precisely upon the parents to stress that their kids must
speak in the "educated" manner of the dominant culture at work, at school
and in the public forum if they want to be taken seriously.
A la Harper Lee's "To Kill A Mockingbird", hm? It's less
about manner and more about who one is speaking to: talk
to your audience, not at them. I am equally appalled by
"rappahs" saying "y'knowwhati'msaying" every other sentence
as I am by British upper-crust snobs: this "drive to be
different" (read: better or cooler than you) isn't done to
bring people together, it's done to ostracize.
It seems to
me that the rest of the world recognizes this as obvious. A black family
in South Africa might speak Sotho yet still want their kids to speak
English properly and eloquently. The question is precisely why so many
African-American families seem to be so knuckleheaded in failing to see
the importance of this. Good for Cosby.
A writer, I forget whom, noted that Carribean and African
immigrants who come in with no money and start on the same
footing as black welfare recipients in the US work harder
and are successful employees or entrepreneurs. This has
nothing to do with skin, it's a created dependence on the
state that is now in its second generation. Many people
(in Canada too) have grown up on welfare and know no other
way, and the school system with it's "pass the class and
send them out on their *****" attitude doesn't encourage
individual achievement. We're all to blame, and we all
need to contribute to solve the problem.
Bob Dog
It's not really fair to compare the average welfare recipient with
immigrants, who tend to be above average in several areas - especially
drive and initiative, obviously, as leaving your country to find a
better life elsewhere takes more than a little initiative in itself!
Still, I agree with you: welfare systems often seem designed to keep
people "in their place" not help them become independent, and if you
grow up on welfare and most of your neighbours are on welfare it
becomes "normal", not a last resort. And there might be room for
improvement in the Am. school system :) Schools should not be storage
facilities or sports clubs.
.
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| User: "Bob Dog" |
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| Title: Re: [OT] The last of the triumvirate speaks out |
28 May 2004 01:15:17 PM |
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(anne marie hovgaard) wrote in message news:<705782b9.0405270825.1f06b954@posting.google.com>...
bg12345@apexmail.com (Bob Dog) wrote in message news:<4fa573de.0405270040.807b2e3@posting.google.com>...
A writer, I forget whom, noted that Carribean and African
immigrants who come in with no money and start on the same
footing as black welfare recipients in the US work harder
and are successful employees or entrepreneurs. This has
nothing to do with skin, it's a created dependence on the
state that is now in its second generation. Many people
(in Canada too) have grown up on welfare and know no other
way, and the school system with it's "pass the class and
send them out on their *****" attitude doesn't encourage
individual achievement. We're all to blame, and we all
need to contribute to solve the problem.
It's not really fair to compare the average welfare recipient with
immigrants, who tend to be above average in several areas - especially
drive and initiative, obviously, as leaving your country to find a
better life elsewhere takes more than a little initiative in itself!
That's the whole point: people as badly off, sometimes worse,
with no money and resources, work hard and become successful,
and some who have access to programs and know where to get
help or direction don't do it. It *is* fair to compare; the
people who have the advantages and knowledge are willing to
do nothing; they have no pride and no drive to change theirs
or their children's lives for the better.
Still, I agree with you: welfare systems often seem designed to keep
people "in their place" not help them become independent, and if you
grow up on welfare and most of your neighbours are on welfare it
becomes "normal", not a last resort. And there might be room for
improvement in the Am. school system :) Schools should not be storage
facilities or sports clubs.
Welfare systems are not designed to keep people on them,
but they certainly aren't designed to get people off. In
most places, the rule is the same: for every dollar you
earn in a job, you lose a dollar off your welfare cheque.
Where's the incentive to work? They gain no money yet
expend more energy for the same money (or less, since the
money earned has taxes removed).
There's an easy way to give people incentive, but the bean
counters in government I've talked to expect to account for
every dollar: Deduct $1 for every $2 earned up to a certain
amount, say $400. Example: a person gets $800 per month on
welfare and works part-time for $400:
no work old way my way
welfare rate $800 $800 $800
earnings 0 400 400
deducted 0 -400 -200 (1 for 2)
welfare paid $800 $400 $600
total income $800 $800 $1000
People won't work for $400 if they gain nothing. If they
won't work, the government (meaning, the taxpayers) pays
more welfare. But I bet people would work for extra money
in their pocket. The government and taxpayers win (less
welfare paid), businesses win (part-time jobs get filled
and more money is spent), and the welfare recipients win
(they have more money to spend). I guess it makes too
much sense; we *are* talking about governments here....
Bob Dog
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| User: "stoney" |
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| Title: Re: [OT] The last of the triumvirate speaks out |
30 May 2004 08:04:18 AM |
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On 27 May 2004 01:40:07 -0700, (Bob Dog), Message
ID: <4fa573de.0405270040.807b2e3@posting.google.com> wrote in
alt.atheism;
SMChristenson <smchris@visi.com> wrote in message news:<pan.2004.05.26.12.16.56.336581@visi.com>...
On Wed, 26 May 2004 01:12:31 -0700, Bob Dog wrote:
Following in the footsteps of his contemporaries and personal friends
Harry Belafonte and Sidney Poitier, Bill Cosby finally speaks out on the
problems of blacks in the US. I thought no less of him for not speaking
out before, but it's nice to see a man of such distinguished character
and respect speaking out because people have to take this funny man
seriously.
Bravo, Bill. You have always been one of my personal heroes.
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=1317&ncid=742&e=11&u=/ucas/20040526/cm_ucas/billcosbyspointedremarksmaysparkmuchneededdebate
I'm a liberal who accepts that there are silly areas of blind political
correctness. And I think Cosby is right on target with this:
knuckledheaded parents.
It's not just the parents, it's everyone.
The issue isn't "ebonics". How many countries are multicultural and
multi-language? If kids want to talk street talk among themselves, who
cares? And what educated person says the U.S. can't survive without being
a Roman lockstep monoculture?
But it falls precisely upon the parents to stress that their kids must
speak in the "educated" manner of the dominant culture at work, at school
and in the public forum if they want to be taken seriously.
A la Harper Lee's "To Kill A Mockingbird", hm? It's less
about manner and more about who one is speaking to: talk
to your audience, not at them. I am equally appalled by
"rappahs" saying "y'knowwhati'msaying" every other sentence
as I am by British upper-crust snobs: this "drive to be
different" (read: better or cooler than you) isn't done to
bring people together, it's done to ostracize.
It seems to
me that the rest of the world recognizes this as obvious. A black family
in South Africa might speak Sotho yet still want their kids to speak
English properly and eloquently. The question is precisely why so many
African-American families seem to be so knuckleheaded in failing to see
the importance of this. Good for Cosby.
A writer, I forget whom, noted that Carribean and African
immigrants who come in with no money and start on the same
footing as black welfare recipients in the US work harder
and are successful employees or entrepreneurs. This has
nothing to do with skin, it's a created dependence on the
state that is now in its second generation. Many people
(in Canada too) have grown up on welfare and know no other
way, and the school system with it's "pass the class and
send them out on their *****" attitude doesn't encourage
individual achievement. We're all to blame, and we all
need to contribute to solve the problem.
In the U.S., education isn't valued. Excelling in meat sports-the
'entertainment industry' is. Want new equipment for the science labs?
Updated books? Top-notch teachers? Forget it.
However, a set of new bleachers, or a football stadium quickly finds
funding.
Nor does the general 'memorize and regurgitate on command' and the
aiming of things to the 'class rock' encourage individual achievement.
Stoney
"Designated Rascal and Rapscallion
and
SCAMPERMEISTER!"
When in doubt, SCAMPER about!
When things are fair, SCAMPER everywhere!
When things are rough, can't SCAMPER enough!
/end humour alert
alt.atheism military veteran #11
{so much for the 'no atheists in foxholes' rubbish}
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| User: "SMChristenson" |
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| Title: Re: [OT] The last of the triumvirate speaks out |
27 May 2004 07:20:24 AM |
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On Thu, 27 May 2004 01:40:07 -0700, Bob Dog wrote:
A writer, I forget whom, noted that Carribean and African immigrants who
come in with no money and start on the same footing as black welfare
recipients in the US work harder and are successful employees or
entrepreneurs. This has
I have read that Zimbabwian musician Thomas Mapfumo doesn't let his kids
listen to rap.
Actually, I worked alongside a student worker from Nigeria decades ago
-- cousin of some prince. He was hilarious. He got a second job working
evenings at a St. Louis ghetto liquor store and had no idea what it
meant to be "black". He said blacks would come into the store all the
time and say, "Bro -- you're one of us. Can't you slip me something?"
And in his most proper colonial English, he would respond, "Brother? I am
not your brother. I have my honor and an obligation of fair dealing with
this establishment!" Imagine their shock.
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| User: "Therion Ware" |
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| Title: Re: [OT] The last of the triumvirate speaks out |
27 May 2004 08:21:18 AM |
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On Thu, 27 May 2004 07:20:24 -0500 in alt.atheism, SMChristenson
(SMChristenson <smchris@visi.com>) said, directing the reply to
alt.atheism
On Thu, 27 May 2004 01:40:07 -0700, Bob Dog wrote:
A writer, I forget whom, noted that Carribean and African immigrants who
come in with no money and start on the same footing as black welfare
recipients in the US work harder and are successful employees or
entrepreneurs. This has
I have read that Zimbabwian musician Thomas Mapfumo doesn't let his kids
listen to rap.
Actually, I worked alongside a student worker from Nigeria decades ago
-- cousin of some prince. He was hilarious. He got a second job working
evenings at a St. Louis ghetto liquor store and had no idea what it
meant to be "black". He said blacks would come into the store all the
time and say, "Bro -- you're one of us. Can't you slip me something?"
And in his most proper colonial English, he would respond, "Brother? I am
not your brother. I have my honor and an obligation of fair dealing with
this establishment!" Imagine their shock.
Sounds like a proper gentleman to me.
Still, it;'s probably not a politically correct tale, but true none
the less.
In the middle 90s, I worked as IT manager for an Incoming Tour
operator in Kenya. Basically that means retail tour companies - the
ones who do the ads run the travel shops and so on, send "pax" (i.e.
customers, i.e. you) through such local organisations without having
the bother of setting up their own local operation. It's a
particularly popular way of doing things in the third world, and
elsewhere, come to that. Because it's cheap. Ah, inexpensive...
Anyway, we used to get a fair few black American pax. Some, though by
no means all, were rather surprised that they were treated as rich
Americans as opposed to ."Africans".
Mind you, I was all for giving each and every incoming tourist the
lecture I got when I started.
(after running through radio procedures)
"Now," said the local, seriously, hard man in charge of security, "if
you get mugged, or there's a riot, take this radio ..."
"Yes"
"... and throw it as hard as you can at the guy in front. At his head.
That'll give you time to run like hell".
"Ah. Ok then".
As it happened I was never touched, in some senses alas, or given the
HIV rate - thanks be to God - in Kenya. Most other expats got mugged
at one time or another. The general theory was that madmen are sacred
in certain cultures, and I happened to be working in one of them....
--
"Do Unto Others As You Would Have Them Do Unto You."
- Attrib: Pauline Reage.
Inexpensive VHS & other video to CD/DVD conversion?
See: <http://www.Video2CD.com>. 35.00 gets your video on DVD.
all posts to this email address are automatically deleted without being read.
** atheist poster child #1 ** #442.
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| User: "stoney" |
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| Title: Re: [OT] The last of the triumvirate speaks out |
30 May 2004 08:05:07 AM |
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On Thu, 27 May 2004 07:20:24 -0500, SMChristenson <smchris@visi.com>,
Message ID: <pan.2004.05.27.12.20.23.870463@visi.com> wrote in
alt.atheism;
On Thu, 27 May 2004 01:40:07 -0700, Bob Dog wrote:
A writer, I forget whom, noted that Carribean and African immigrants who
come in with no money and start on the same footing as black welfare
recipients in the US work harder and are successful employees or
entrepreneurs. This has
I have read that Zimbabwian musician Thomas Mapfumo doesn't let his kids
listen to rap.
Actually, I worked alongside a student worker from Nigeria decades ago
-- cousin of some prince. He was hilarious. He got a second job working
evenings at a St. Louis ghetto liquor store and had no idea what it
meant to be "black". He said blacks would come into the store all the
time and say, "Bro -- you're one of us. Can't you slip me something?"
And in his most proper colonial English, he would respond, "Brother? I am
not your brother. I have my honor and an obligation of fair dealing with
this establishment!" Imagine their shock.
:)
Stoney
"Designated Rascal and Rapscallion
and
SCAMPERMEISTER!"
When in doubt, SCAMPER about!
When things are fair, SCAMPER everywhere!
When things are rough, can't SCAMPER enough!
/end humour alert
alt.atheism military veteran #11
{so much for the 'no atheists in foxholes' rubbish}
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