| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"Therion Ware" |
| Date: |
22 Sep 2004 08:29:43 AM |
| Object: |
OT: What do you understand patriotism to be? |
Yep another of them questions!
So, what do you understand patriotism to be?
"My country, right or wrong?". Or something else? If so what?
Was it patriotic for ordinary Germans to support Hitler? For Russians
to support Stalin? For Americans to support the Vietnam war? And so on
and so forth.
Do you think you're a patriot?
Why?
But - as an outsider looking in - for those natives of alt.bible and
alt.religion.christian.roman-catholic at least, I think claims of
patriotism a bit problematic.
Presumably as believers your first, highest, and if it comes to it,
*only* and *final* allegiance is to God.
If that's true, how can you claim to be patriots in any rational
sense?
And no, I'm not trying to have a go at the believers here. Wonder of
wonders, I'd really like to know what they think about this.
--
"Do Unto Others As You Would Have Them Do Unto You."
- Attrib: Pauline Reage.
Inexpensive VHS & other video to CD/DVD conversion?
See: <http://www.Video2CD.com>. 35.00 gets your video on DVD.
all posts to this email address are automatically deleted without being read.
** atheist poster child #1 ** #442.
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| User: "Ike" |
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| Title: Re: What do you understand patriotism to be? |
22 Sep 2004 09:18:52 AM |
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"Therion Ware" <autodelete@city-of-dis.com> wrote in message
news:m1u2l0hfo2puos7og56jh1s0t1ojp4791k@4ax.com...
Yep another of them questions!
So, what do you understand patriotism to be?
"My country, right or wrong?". Or something else? If so what?
Patriotism is loyalty. There is no other place to go. If there is, be
patriotic to that place.
Was it patriotic for ordinary Germans to support Hitler? For Russians
to support Stalin? For Americans to support the Vietnam war? And so on
and so forth.
You speak in the past tense. They aren't all dead yet.
Do you think you're a patriot?
Yes.
Why?
a) Because if a foreign power attacks my people, I'm just lucky if it wasn't
me. b) I'm here, and obligated to the people around me, including
(especially) my family. c) I paid taxes and I'm still waiting for my money's
worth ('til Hell freezes over, no doubt).
But - as an outsider looking in - for those natives of alt.bible and
alt.religion.christian.roman-catholic at least, I think claims of
patriotism a bit problematic.
Presumably as believers your first, highest, and if it comes to it,
*only* and *final* allegiance is to God.
If that's true, how can you claim to be patriots in any rational
sense?
You talking to me?? Rational??
And no, I'm not trying to have a go at the believers here. Wonder of
wonders, I'd really like to know what they think about this.
Excusea me. Oh, beleeeeeevers! Somebody wants to talk to you.
--
Freedom of thought entails no "Intellectual Property".
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| User: "Callipygian Nullifidian" |
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| Title: Re: What do you understand patriotism to be? |
22 Sep 2004 10:14:10 AM |
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"Ike" <accordiondoc@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:gRf4d.42$zG1.21@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net...
:
: "Therion Ware" <autodelete@city-of-dis.com> wrote in message
: news:m1u2l0hfo2puos7og56jh1s0t1ojp4791k@4ax.com...
: >
: > Yep another of them questions!
: >
: > So, what do you understand patriotism to be?
: >
: > "My country, right or wrong?". Or something else? If so what?
: >
: Patriotism is loyalty. There is no other place to go. If there is,
be
: patriotic to that place.
Yer a loony.
: > Was it patriotic for ordinary Germans to support Hitler? For
Russians
: > to support Stalin? For Americans to support the Vietnam war? And
so on
: > and so forth.
: >
: You speak in the past tense. They aren't all dead yet.
Who isn't dead yet? Perhaps you should have actually read the
sentence, before replying to it.
: > Do you think you're a patriot?
: >
: Yes.
: > Why?
: >
: a) Because if a foreign power attacks my people, I'm just lucky if
it wasn't
: me. b) I'm here, and obligated to the people around me, including
: (especially) my family. c) I paid taxes and I'm still waiting for my
money's
: worth ('til Hell freezes over, no doubt).
Yes, you ARE a loony. None of these things are a REASON to think that
you're a patriot. These statements make you sound like a right-wing
dittohead, are you?
: > But - as an outsider looking in - for those natives of alt.bible
and
: > alt.religion.christian.roman-catholic at least, I think claims of
: > patriotism a bit problematic.
: >
: > Presumably as believers your first, highest, and if it comes to
it,
: > *only* and *final* allegiance is to God.
: >
: > If that's true, how can you claim to be patriots in any rational
: > sense?
: >
: You talking to me?? Rational??
See above.
: > And no, I'm not trying to have a go at the believers here. Wonder
of
: > wonders, I'd really like to know what they think about this.
: >
: Excusea me. Oh, beleeeeeevers! Somebody wants to talk to you.
I find this a bit odd, also.
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| User: "Ike" |
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| Title: Re: What do you understand patriotism to be? |
22 Sep 2004 04:57:08 PM |
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"Callipygian Nullifidian" <mulberry@ameritech.net> wrote in message
news:cis4s2$6if$1@news.ks.uiuc.edu...
"Ike" <accordiondoc@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:gRf4d.42$zG1.21@newsread3.news.pas.earthlink.net...
:
: "Therion Ware" <autodelete@city-of-dis.com> wrote in message
: news:m1u2l0hfo2puos7og56jh1s0t1ojp4791k@4ax.com...
: >
: > Yep another of them questions!
: >
: > So, what do you understand patriotism to be?
: >
: > "My country, right or wrong?". Or something else? If so what?
: >
: Patriotism is loyalty. There is no other place to go. If there is,
be
: patriotic to that place.
Yer a loony.
And??
: > Was it patriotic for ordinary Germans to support Hitler? For
Russians
: > to support Stalin? For Americans to support the Vietnam war? And
so on
: > and so forth.
: >
: You speak in the past tense. They aren't all dead yet.
Who isn't dead yet? Perhaps you should have actually read the
sentence, before replying to it.
Who isn't dead yet are all the people who supported Hitler Stalin or the
Vietnam war, the last group comprises both people on the communist and
anti-communist side and they still support whom or what they supported then.
: > Do you think you're a patriot?
: >
: Yes.
: > Why?
: >
: a) Because if a foreign power attacks my people, I'm just lucky if
it wasn't
: me. b) I'm here, and obligated to the people around me, including
: (especially) my family. c) I paid taxes and I'm still waiting for my
money's
: worth ('til Hell freezes over, no doubt).
Yes, you ARE a loony. None of these things are a REASON to think that
you're a patriot. These statements make you sound like a right-wing
dittohead, are you?
For you that's synonymous anyway.
: > But - as an outsider looking in - for those natives of alt.bible
and
: > alt.religion.christian.roman-catholic at least, I think claims of
: > patriotism a bit problematic.
: >
: > Presumably as believers your first, highest, and if it comes to
it,
: > *only* and *final* allegiance is to God.
: >
: > If that's true, how can you claim to be patriots in any rational
: > sense?
: >
: You talking to me?? Rational??
See above.
: > And no, I'm not trying to have a go at the believers here. Wonder
of
: > wonders, I'd really like to know what they think about this.
: >
: Excusea me. Oh, beleeeeeevers! Somebody wants to talk to you.
I find this a bit odd, also.
I find you more than a bit odd, nothing personal. Thanks fo helping me
waste my time.
--
Freedom of thought entails no "Intellectual Property".
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| User: "Clayton Sprained His Ankle The Useless Bastard!" |
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| Title: Re: What do you understand patriotism to be? |
22 Sep 2004 05:38:20 PM |
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"Therion Ware" <autodelete@city-of-dis.com> wrote in message
news:m1u2l0hfo2puos7og56jh1s0t1ojp4791k@4ax.com...
Yep another of them questions!
So, what do you understand patriotism to be?
That a peice of material in the form of a flag is the most sacred thing
imaginable, but the ideals that that flag are supposed to represent are
flexible dependant on one's own agenda. Burning a flag is a terrible,
terrible thing but shooting the person who is doing the burning is a
patriotic act!
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| User: "Terrell D Lewis" |
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| Title: Re: What do you understand patriotism to be? |
22 Sep 2004 06:05:57 PM |
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"Clayton Sprained His Ankle The Useless *****!"
<cjfat@SPAMBLOCKphonyemail.com> wrote in message
news:4151ff15$0$20126$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au...
"Therion Ware" <autodelete@city-of-dis.com> wrote in message
news:m1u2l0hfo2puos7og56jh1s0t1ojp4791k@4ax.com...
Yep another of them questions!
So, what do you understand patriotism to be?
That a peice of material in the form of a flag is the most sacred thing
imaginable, but the ideals that that flag are supposed to represent are
flexible dependant on one's own agenda. Burning a flag is a terrible,
terrible thing but shooting the person who is doing the burning is a
patriotic act!
I cannot agree. First off ... since I am posting from alt.bible, you have
just made the flag into an idol.
Secondly, I honor the flag. I remember way back in the mid to late 70s, I
was stationed in Turkey. At the time, the US had imposed an embargo on
Turkey for using planes we had sold them in Cyprus so, the Turkish
government took it out on us servicemen. One of the things we had to endure
was a prohibition on flying the flag on base. Then the last year I was
there (1979), for the 4th of July, they allowed us to have an honor guard
carry the flag to our base picnic. I wept.
That being said, burning the flag in protest (burning is the correct way of
disposing of a flag that is worn) is disturbing to me, but because it is
disturbing, it is an effective symbol of dissent that should be protected as
free speech. I don't like it when someone does it, but I served a little
over 8 years to help ensure that people have the right to do it. As the old
saying went: "I may not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to
my death your right to say it."
--
Terrell D Lewis
http://www.midihymnal.com
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| User: "GoDrex" |
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| Title: Re: What do you understand patriotism to be? |
22 Sep 2004 08:56:03 PM |
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"Therion Ware" <autodelete@city-of-dis.com> wrote in message
news:m1u2l0hfo2puos7og56jh1s0t1ojp4791k@4ax.com...
Yep another of them questions!
So, what do you understand patriotism to be?
how about Orwell's definition from this essay:
http://www.resort.com/~prime8/Orwell/nationalism.html
----
By "nationalism" I mean first of all the habit of assuming that human beings
can be classified like insects and that whole blocks of millions or tens of
millions of people can be confidently labelled "good" or "bad." But
secondly -- and this is much more important -- I mean the habit of
identifying oneself with a single nation or other unit, placing it beyond
good and evil and recognizing no other duty than that of advancing its
interests. Nationalism is not to be confused with patriotism. Both words are
normally used in so vague a way that any definition is liable to be
challenged, but one must draw a distinction between them, since two
different and even opposing ideas are involved. By "patriotism" I mean
devotion to a particular place and a particular way of life, which one
believes to be the best in the world but has no wish to force on other
people. Patriotism is of its nature defensive, both militarily and
culturally. Nationalism, on the other hand, is inseperable from the desire
for power. The abiding purpose of every nationalist is to secure more power
and more prestige, not for himself but for the nation or other unit in which
he has chosen to sink his own individuality.
-----
works for me...
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| User: "Schism" |
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| Title: Re: What do you understand patriotism to be? |
22 Sep 2004 01:21:45 PM |
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"Therion Ware" <autodelete@city-of-dis.com> wrote in message
news:m1u2l0hfo2puos7og56jh1s0t1ojp4791k@4ax.com...
Yep another of them questions!
So, what do you understand patriotism to be?
"A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his
government"
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| User: "Mark K. Bilbo" |
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| Title: Re: OT: What do you understand patriotism to be? |
22 Sep 2004 10:13:04 PM |
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On Wed, 22 Sep 2004 14:29:43 +0100 in episode
<m1u2l0hfo2puos7og56jh1s0t1ojp4791k@4ax.com> we saw our hero Therion Ware
<autodelete@city-of-dis.com>:
So, what do you understand patriotism to be?
What's "patriotism?"
--
Mark K. Bilbo - a.a. #1423
EAC Department of Linguistic Subversion
Alt-atheism website at: http://www.alt-atheism.org
-----------------------------------------------------------
"Being surprised at the fact that the universe
is fine tuned for life is akin to a puddle being
surprised at how well it fits its hole"
-- Douglas Adams
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| User: "Meteorite Debris" |
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| Title: Re: OT: What do you understand patriotism to be? |
24 Sep 2004 03:13:49 AM |
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On Wed, 22 Sep 2004 14:29:43 +0100 the ET form known as Therion
Ware<autodelete@city-of-dis.com> sent a radio signal across the vast
expanse of deep space -._.--._.--._.--._.--._.--._.
Yep another of them questions!
So, what do you understand patriotism to be?
I understand it to be something similar to religion.
see <http://members.optusnet.com.au/~pk1956/misc/apatriotism.htm>
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/apatriotism/>
"My country, right or wrong?". Or something else? If so what?
It is a bit like saying my mother drunk or somber, my father hit man
or not.
Was it patriotic for ordinary Germans to support Hitler? For Russians
to support Stalin? For Americans to support the Vietnam war? And so on
and so forth.
Germans no doubt saw it as their patriotic duty. Here is an example of
people doing in the name of their country what good people would not
normally do to others. In that it is like religion when people do in
the name of their god what they would usually not do. Organised
obedience has caused more harm in the world than sole villains.
Patriotism, like religion, comes in different strengths. From benign
to psycho madness and some patriots are inspired to great acts and
ideals just as some religious people are inspired to humanitarianism.
But also, just as there are mad fundamentalists in religion so you
will find nationalistic fascists. Very often they are the same people.
But as for the good I would say to copy/paste from my own web page "If
an act or idea has merit without appealing to patriotism then the
patriotic appeal is surplus and if it has merit ONLY in the context of
patriotism then you're talking about a war crime, genocide or some
lessor violation of human rights."
Do you think you're a patriot?
No. I am an apatriot.
Why?
For the reasons above.
But - as an outsider looking in - for those natives of alt.bible and
alt.religion.christian.roman-catholic at least, I think claims of
patriotism a bit problematic.
I have noticed that the most religious countries also tend to be over
the top in jingoism. Where one is you will find the other. And the two
become one keep a good look over your shoulder and take care about who
you talk to.
Presumably as believers your first, highest, and if it comes to it,
*only* and *final* allegiance is to God.
If that's true, how can you claim to be patriots in any rational
sense?
And no, I'm not trying to have a go at the believers here. Wonder of
wonders, I'd really like to know what they think about this.
--
epicurus1*at*optusnet*dot*com*dot*au
apatriot #1, atheist #1417,
Chief EAC prophet
http://members.optusnet.com.au/~pk1956/
Apatriotism Yahoo Group
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/apatriotism
"Properly read, the Bible is the most potent force for atheism ever
conceived." - Isaac Asimov
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| User: "Daniel Kolle" |
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| Title: Re: OT: What do you understand patriotism to be? |
22 Sep 2004 05:42:11 PM |
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On Wed, 22 Sep 2004 14:29:43 +0100, Therion Ware
<autodelete@city-of-dis.com> thought hard and said:
Yep another of them questions!
So, what do you understand patriotism to be?
"My country, right or wrong?". Or something else? If so what?
I define patriotism in the US as following the Constitition--something
neither the Republicans or Democrats can claim these days.
--
-Daniel "Mr. Brevity" Kolle; 16 A.A. #2035
Koji Kondo, Yo-Yo Ma, Gustav Mahler, Krzysztof Penderecki, and Geirr Tveitt are my Gods.
Head of EAC Denial Department and Madly Insane Scientist.
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| User: "Kate " |
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| Title: Re: OT: What do you understand patriotism to be? |
22 Sep 2004 07:51:10 PM |
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On Wed, 22 Sep 2004 14:29:43 +0100, Therion Ware
<autodelete@city-of-dis.com> wrote:
Yep another of them questions!
So, what do you understand patriotism to be?
"My country, right or wrong?". Or something else? If so what?
Was it patriotic for ordinary Germans to support Hitler? For Russians
to support Stalin? For Americans to support the Vietnam war? And so on
and so forth.
Do you think you're a patriot?
Why?
But - as an outsider looking in - for those natives of alt.bible and
alt.religion.christian.roman-catholic at least, I think claims of
patriotism a bit problematic.
Presumably as believers your first, highest, and if it comes to it,
*only* and *final* allegiance is to God.
If that's true, how can you claim to be patriots in any rational
sense?
And no, I'm not trying to have a go at the believers here. Wonder of
wonders, I'd really like to know what they think about this.
I think patriotism is loving your country enough to work hard and fix
it's problems and to help your fellow citizens and support those who
sacrafice for our country. I think ignoring it when the leaders are
wrong and doing things that are hurting our country or our military
men is extremely unpatriotic.
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: OT: What do you understand patriotism to be? |
22 Sep 2004 11:39:25 PM |
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On Wed, 22 Sep 2004 14:29:43 +0100, Therion Ware
<autodelete@city-of-dis.com> wrote:
Yep another of them questions!
So, what do you understand patriotism to be?
All too often the last resort of the scoundrel.
Verbage of control to get others to do what all too often the speaker
is too cowardly to do/have done.
"My country, right or wrong?". Or something else? If so what?
Was it patriotic for ordinary Germans to support Hitler? For Russians
to support Stalin? For Americans to support the Vietnam war? And so on
and so forth.
Do you think you're a patriot?
Why?
But - as an outsider looking in - for those natives of alt.bible and
alt.religion.christian.roman-catholic at least, I think claims of
patriotism a bit problematic.
Presumably as believers your first, highest, and if it comes to it,
*only* and *final* allegiance is to God.
If that's true, how can you claim to be patriots in any rational
sense?
And no, I'm not trying to have a go at the believers here. Wonder of
wonders, I'd really like to know what they think about this.
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| User: "Jos Flachs" |
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| Title: Re: OT: What do you understand patriotism to be? |
22 Sep 2004 08:37:29 PM |
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On Wed, 22 Sep 2004 14:29:43 +0100, Therion Ware
<autodelete@city-of-dis.com> wrote:
Do you think you're a patriot?
I think in some minor way I am. I am a Dutchman, and more or less
proud about it. I served - with pride.
But patriotism and chauvinism are awfully close together. Today I see
US patriotism acting as blatant chauvinism.
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| User: "John Ings" |
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| Title: Re: OT: What do you understand patriotism to be? |
22 Sep 2004 09:12:03 AM |
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On Wed, 22 Sep 2004 14:29:43 +0100, Therion Ware
<autodelete@city-of-dis.com> wrote:
So, what do you understand patriotism to be?
The veneration of real estate above principles
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| User: "Therion Ware" |
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| Title: Re: OT: What do you understand patriotism to be? |
22 Sep 2004 09:17:40 AM |
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On Wed, 22 Sep 2004 07:12:03 -0700 in alt.atheism, John Ings (John
Ings <nodamned@spam.org>) said, directing the reply to alt.atheism
On Wed, 22 Sep 2004 14:29:43 +0100, Therion Ware
<autodelete@city-of-dis.com> wrote:
So, what do you understand patriotism to be?
The veneration of real estate above principles
Ouch.
Unexpected, but ... yes, I like that. Makes me thin.
But don't you think the administration of the real estate might have
something to do with it?
--
"Do Unto Others As You Would Have Them Do Unto You."
- Attrib: Pauline Reage.
Inexpensive VHS & other video to CD/DVD conversion?
See: <http://www.Video2CD.com>. 35.00 gets your video on DVD.
all posts to this email address are automatically deleted without being read.
** atheist poster child #1 ** #442.
.
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| User: "John Ings" |
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| Title: Re: OT: What do you understand patriotism to be? |
22 Sep 2004 09:08:41 PM |
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On Wed, 22 Sep 2004 15:17:40 +0100, Therion Ware
<autodelete@city-of-dis.com> wrote:
So, what do you understand patriotism to be?
The veneration of real estate above principles
But don't you think the administration of the real estate might have
something to do with it?
Patriotism is a kind of religion; it is the egg from which wars are
hatched. ~Guy de Maupassant
It is lamentable, that to be a good patriot one must become the enemy
of the rest of mankind. ~Voltaire
Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind.
~Albert Einstein, The World As I See It, 1934
Patriotism is your conviction that this country is superior to all
other countries because you were born in it. [...]You'll never have a
quiet world till you knock the patriotism out of the human race.
~George Bernard Shaw
It is not easy to see how the more extreme forms of nationalism can
long survive when men have seen the Earth in its true perspective as a
single small globe against the stars. ~Arthur C. Clarke
Our country is not the only thing to which we owe our allegiance. It
is also owed to justice and to humanity. Patriotism consists not in
waving the flag, but in striving that our country shall be righteous
as well as strong. ~James Bryce
## There is no they, only us.
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| User: "Meteorite Debris" |
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| Title: Re: OT: What do you understand patriotism to be? |
24 Sep 2004 03:20:42 AM |
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On Wed, 22 Sep 2004 19:08:41 -0700 the ET form known as John
Ings<nodamned@spam.org> sent a radio signal across the vast expanse of
deep space -._.--._.--._.--._.--._.--._.
Patriotism is a kind of religion; it is the egg from which wars are
hatched. ~Guy de Maupassant
It is lamentable, that to be a good patriot one must become the enemy
of the rest of mankind. ~Voltaire
Nationalism is an infantile disease. It is the measles of mankind.
~Albert Einstein, The World As I See It, 1934
Patriotism is your conviction that this country is superior to all
other countries because you were born in it. [...]You'll never have a
quiet world till you knock the patriotism out of the human race.
~George Bernard Shaw
It is not easy to see how the more extreme forms of nationalism can
long survive when men have seen the Earth in its true perspective as a
single small globe against the stars. ~Arthur C. Clarke
Our country is not the only thing to which we owe our allegiance. It
is also owed to justice and to humanity. Patriotism consists not in
waving the flag, but in striving that our country shall be righteous
as well as strong. ~James Bryce
## There is no they, only us.
I like these quotes.
--
epicurus1*at*optusnet*dot*com*dot*au
apatriot #1, atheist #1417,
Chief EAC prophet
http://members.optusnet.com.au/~pk1956/
Apatriotism Yahoo Group
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/apatriotism
"Properly read, the Bible is the most potent force for atheism ever
conceived." - Isaac Asimov
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| User: "towelie" |
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| Title: Re: What do you understand patriotism to be? |
22 Sep 2004 08:41:02 AM |
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TV's Therion Ware wrote:
Yep another of them questions!
So, what do you understand patriotism to be?
"My country, right or wrong?". Or something else? If so what?
I'd say "My country, right it when it's wrong."
Was it patriotic for ordinary Germans to support Hitler? For Russians
to support Stalin? For Americans to support the Vietnam war? And so on
and so forth.
For USAians to support Dumbya?
Do you think you're a patriot?
I don't consider myself patriotic.
Why?
Because I consider myself a citizen of this planet, not just an individual
country. The only geographical boundaries I use for self-identification is
the city or state I live in. I'm an Earthiling, and an Arkansan.
"American" is a meaningless label.
Political boundaries only separate us.
But - as an outsider looking in - for those natives of alt.bible and
alt.religion.christian.roman-catholic at least, I think claims of
patriotism a bit problematic.
Because Gawd is always on (my country's) side no matter what it does.
Presumably as believers your first, highest, and if it comes to it,
*only* and *final* allegiance is to God.
If that's true, how can you claim to be patriots in any rational
sense?
Breach of rules: use of "believers" and "rational" in the same question.
And no, I'm not trying to have a go at the believers here. Wonder of
wonders, I'd really like to know what they think about this.
Something that somebody else told them to think, no doubt.
--
If you don't like my lyrics you can press fast forward. - Jay-Z
aa #2133
ap #19
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| User: "Woden wodencharternet" |
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| Title: Re: OT: What do you understand patriotism to be? |
22 Sep 2004 07:24:32 PM |
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Therion Ware <autodelete@city-of-dis.com> wrote in
news:m1u2l0hfo2puos7og56jh1s0t1ojp4791k@4ax.com:
Yep another of them questions!
So, what do you understand patriotism to be?
A irrational belief leading to support some imaginary concept called
nation or state.
"My country, right or wrong?". Or something else? If so what?
"My Country, no big deal - my own personal freedom and that of others,
damn important.
Was it patriotic for ordinary Germans to support Hitler? For Russians
to support Stalin? For Americans to support the Vietnam war? And so on
and so forth.
Obviously they believed it was patriotic.
Do you think you're a patriot?
Not really. Although if my homeland was invaded, I would probably be
willing to fight to defend my liberties.
Why?
Like religion, "patriotism" is a tool for politicians to use to control
and manipulate the masses.
But - as an outsider looking in - for those natives of alt.bible and
alt.religion.christian.roman-catholic at least, I think claims of
patriotism a bit problematic.
Presumably as believers your first, highest, and if it comes to it,
*only* and *final* allegiance is to God.
If that's true, how can you claim to be patriots in any rational
sense?
"rational"? You're asking "believers".
And no, I'm not trying to have a go at the believers here. Wonder of
wonders, I'd really like to know what they think about this.
--
Woden
"religion is a socio-political system for controlling people's thoughts,
lives and actions based on ancient myths and superstitions, perpetrated
through generations of subtle yet pervasive brainwashing."
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| User: "Daniel Kolle" |
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| Title: Re: OT: What do you understand patriotism to be? |
22 Sep 2004 08:42:16 PM |
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On Thu, 23 Sep 2004 00:24:32 -0000, Woden <wodencharternet> thought
hard and said:
Therion Ware <autodelete@city-of-dis.com> wrote in
news:m1u2l0hfo2puos7og56jh1s0t1ojp4791k@4ax.com:
Yep another of them questions!
So, what do you understand patriotism to be?
A irrational belief leading to support some imaginary concept called
nation or state.
Do I smell a communist?
--
-Daniel "Mr. Brevity" Kolle; 16 A.A. #2035
Koji Kondo, Yo-Yo Ma, Gustav Mahler, Krzysztof Penderecki, and Geirr Tveitt are my Gods.
Head of EAC Denial Department and Madly Insane Scientist.
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| User: "Woden wodencharternet" |
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| Title: Re: OT: What do you understand patriotism to be? |
22 Sep 2004 09:12:13 PM |
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Daniel Kolle <DKolle@hotmail.com> wrote in
news:dfa4l05qj0dab6rr2t5n1ns5ctptsatba4@4ax.com:
On Thu, 23 Sep 2004 00:24:32 -0000, Woden <wodencharternet> thought
hard and said:
Therion Ware <autodelete@city-of-dis.com> wrote in
news:m1u2l0hfo2puos7og56jh1s0t1ojp4791k@4ax.com:
Yep another of them questions!
So, what do you understand patriotism to be?
A irrational belief leading to support some imaginary concept called
nation or state.
Do I smell a communist?
Ah, another of those imaginary concepts that people use as an excuse to
do bad things to their fellow man.
--
Woden
"religion is a socio-political system for controlling people's thoughts,
lives and actions based on ancient myths and superstitions, perpetrated
through generations of subtle yet pervasive brainwashing."
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| User: "Jos Flachs" |
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| Title: Re: OT: What do you understand patriotism to be? |
23 Sep 2004 07:47:18 PM |
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On Wed, 22 Sep 2004 20:42:16 -0500, Daniel Kolle <DKolle@hotmail.com>
wrote:
On Thu, 23 Sep 2004 00:24:32 -0000, Woden <wodencharternet> thought
hard and said:
Therion Ware <autodelete@city-of-dis.com> wrote in
news:m1u2l0hfo2puos7og56jh1s0t1ojp4791k@4ax.com:
Yep another of them questions!
So, what do you understand patriotism to be?
A irrational belief leading to support some imaginary concept called
nation or state.
Do I smell a communist?
<sniff, sniff>
Nope. You don't.
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| User: "AnotherObserver®" |
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| Title: Re: OT: What do you understand patriotism to be? |
22 Sep 2004 11:09:47 AM |
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Therion Ware <autodelete@city-of-dis.com> wrote:
Yep another of them questions!
Oh goody!
So, what do you understand patriotism to be?
Just another stupid farking religion that's drenched with a flavor of
dogma in it's own rite.
"My country, right or wrong?". Or something else? If so what?
My country?! That's a joke. It's me and those immediately around me
to begin and end with. Everything else is out of hand.
Was it patriotic for ordinary Germans to support Hitler? For Russians
to support Stalin? For Americans to support the Vietnam war? And so on
and so forth.
Sure, it was very patriotic in a brainwashed, follow the leader and
the dogma sort of way.
Do you think you're a patriot?
No. I do get flustered when people the world over insult America
though. America is flawed, it's current leaders are flawed, all of
it's past leaders were flawed. People are flawed. Why argue over
every single detail? The peasantry never gets it's way anyhow, why
worry?
Why?
Because I despise any form of dogma or propaganda. We're always left
with the one thing most important, our opinions (informed or
supposed). Proof and information are falsifiable and can't be
trusted. It's laughable that so many people accept a copy of records
as a form of proof, knowing full well that those records are of the
past and easily manipulated or even created. Seeing isn't always
believing, why trust biased documentation as a form of proof for
anything when there is no way to ever be an eyewitness in most of
cases?
But - as an outsider looking in - for those natives of alt.bible and
alt.religion.christian.roman-catholic at least, I think claims of
patriotism a bit problematic.
Naw. "Give unto Ceasar what is Ceasar's." No matter the facts, most
xers think that America is God's country, he allowed the process so
his children could worship him, the one true, in the way he was
calling them to worship. I think that's the protestant side of it
though.
Presumably as believers your first, highest, and if it comes to it,
*only* and *final* allegiance is to God.
As a theist, I would argue many things with preachers who were
educated within their particular dogma. I'd argue that Jesus told us
that nothing going through the mouth defiles us, only the vile remarks
that spew out from the heart. I argued that cannabis was a good and
natural thing, that it produces seeds and must certainly be for our
use. That drinking alcohol was perfectly normal. These religiously
educated people couldn't answer the questions besides the famous
"mysterious ways" *****. To them, an unlawful man of the state is
an ungodly man. Proverbs 31 prescribes alcohol and they'd continue
the dialog that "it's a sin, a harm to the body and mind, to drink any
form of alcohol." I'd reply, "no worse than that caffeine in your
hand." Cannabis is illegal, so it too is a sin, nevermind the medical
side effects. Never have I been so frustrated as when trying to make
sense of my theism and application to life as I live it. I'm going to
hell for having a drink, a toke and sex out of wedlock? What a
bunch-o-moronic philosophers they are.
If that's true, how can you claim to be patriots in any rational
sense?
Shifting the position can't be rational when the process never
changes. The blood god of the OT rationalized war for them, yet the
multitudes of wives and concubines no longer apply for a promiscuous
person who isn't content with just one flavor.
And no, I'm not trying to have a go at the believers here. Wonder of
wonders, I'd really like to know what they think about this.
Good luck! I'm sure you're looking for thought provoked answers and
it's very doubtful that you'll get even one from them.
--
Davidwd
~~~~~~~~~
irreligionist
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| User: "Christopher A. Lee" |
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| Title: Re: OT: What do you understand patriotism to be? |
22 Sep 2004 11:30:57 AM |
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On Wed, 22 Sep 2004 12:09:47 -0400, AnotherObserver® wrote:
Therion Ware <autodelete@city-of-dis.com> wrote:
Yep another of them questions!
Oh goody!
So, what do you understand patriotism to be?
Just another stupid farking religion that's drenched with a flavor of
dogma in it's own rite.
"My country, right or wrong?". Or something else? If so what?
My country?! That's a joke. It's me and those immediately around me
to begin and end with. Everything else is out of hand.
Was it patriotic for ordinary Germans to support Hitler? For Russians
to support Stalin? For Americans to support the Vietnam war? And so on
and so forth.
Sure, it was very patriotic in a brainwashed, follow the leader and
the dogma sort of way.
Do you think you're a patriot?
No. I do get flustered when people the world over insult America
though. America is flawed, it's current leaders are flawed, all of
it's past leaders were flawed. People are flawed. Why argue over
every single detail? The peasantry never gets it's way anyhow, why
worry?
Because it is perceived outside the USA as an international bully with
double standards.
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| User: "AnotherObserver®" |
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| Title: Re: OT: What do you understand patriotism to be? |
22 Sep 2004 12:09:20 PM |
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Christopher A. Lee <calee@optonline.net> wrote:
On Wed, 22 Sep 2004 12:09:47 -0400, AnotherObserver® wrote:
Therion Ware <autodelete@city-of-dis.com> wrote:
Yep another of them questions!
Oh goody!
So, what do you understand patriotism to be?
Just another stupid farking religion that's drenched with a flavor of
dogma in it's own rite.
"My country, right or wrong?". Or something else? If so what?
My country?! That's a joke. It's me and those immediately around me
to begin and end with. Everything else is out of hand.
Was it patriotic for ordinary Germans to support Hitler? For Russians
to support Stalin? For Americans to support the Vietnam war? And so on
and so forth.
Sure, it was very patriotic in a brainwashed, follow the leader and
the dogma sort of way.
Do you think you're a patriot?
No. I do get flustered when people the world over insult America
though. America is flawed, it's current leaders are flawed, all of
it's past leaders were flawed. People are flawed. Why argue over
every single detail? The peasantry never gets it's way anyhow, why
worry?
Because it is perceived outside the USA as an international bully with
double standards.
Christopher, I agree with the perception that the USA is an
international bully and does have double standards. Consequentially,
all leaders of any sized flock are forced to keep double standards.
The USA is the leading supper power in the world and I can understand
the UK's aberration in dealing with this fact. I also happen to think
that this condition is a natural negation to the good that the USA
attempts to provide. The problem is that good is subjective among
individuals. The leaders of countries aren't speaking for the
individuals within them, why must all Americans be criticized,
excepting those that agree with *you of course. All things positive
are negative, else zero, action/reaction type of stuff.
Friends to everyone is a friend to none.
Bush will likely win the election. I think this because of the
serious flaw Kerry committed when he chose Edwards as a running mate.
Edwards?! The hick from NC?! Regardless of Edwards' professional
success and his connections, this was Kerry's utmost fatalis.
I'm lacking the skill on this subject and the desire to go into
substantial details right now. Only left to ask is, if Kerry holds
next term and he bows down to suck everyone's ***** by creating an
irrational international policy, do you think criticism will subside
during his term and that a single issue of globally significant degree
will be rectified?
--
Davidwd
~~~~~~~~~
irreligionist
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| User: "Apostate" |
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| Title: Re: OT: What do you understand patriotism to be? |
22 Sep 2004 03:24:58 PM |
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On Wed, 22 Sep 2004 13:09:20 -0400, AnotherObserver® wrote:
Christopher A. Lee <calee@optonline.net> wrote:
On Wed, 22 Sep 2004 12:09:47 -0400, AnotherObserver® wrote:
Therion Ware <autodelete@city-of-dis.com> wrote:
Yep another of them questions!
Oh goody!
So, what do you understand patriotism to be?
Just another stupid farking religion that's drenched with a flavor of
dogma in it's own rite.
"My country, right or wrong?". Or something else? If so what?
My country?! That's a joke. It's me and those immediately around me
to begin and end with. Everythingelseisoutofhand.
Was it patriotic for ordinary Germans to support Hitler? For Russians
to support Stalin? For Americans to support the Vietnam war? And so on
and so forth.
Sure, it was very patriotic in a brainwashed, follow the leader and
the dogma sort of way.
Do you think you're a patriot?
No. I do get flustered when people the world over insult America
though. America is flawed, it's current leaders are flawed, all of
it's past leaders were flawed. People are flawed. Why argue over
every single detail? The peasantry never gets it's way anyhow, why
worry?
Because it is perceived outside the USA as an international bully with
double standards.
Christopher, I agree with the perception that the USA is an
international bully and does have double standards. Consequentially,
all leaders of any sized flock are forced to keep double standards.
The USA is the leading supper power in the world
Industrialization and corporatization of farming, you know.
--
/Apostate
atheist #1931 I've found it!
BAAWA Knife AND SMASHer
EAC Supernumerary Deputy Director, Department of Redundancy Department
plonked by Lani_girl, first post; Billions Served!
I doubt, therefore I might be.
For e-mail, hold that tiger!
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| User: "Mike Smith" |
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| Title: Re: OT: What do you understand patriotism to be? |
22 Sep 2004 04:52:28 PM |
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Therion Ware <autodelete@city-of-dis.com> wrote:
=Yep another of them questions!
=So, what do you understand patriotism to be?
I'm usually suspicious of it. I mean, being proud
of your country is one thing, but it turns into "we're
better than you" and escalates from there.
__________________________________________
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
Mike Smith | aa #1164 | Founder of SMASH
__________________________________________
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
"Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them
that stand here, which shall not taste of death,
till they have seen the kingdom of God come with
power." - Mark 9:1
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| User: "Arturo Magidin" |
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| Title: Re: OT: What do you understand patriotism to be? |
22 Sep 2004 04:51:50 PM |
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In article <1us3l0pasp34dha732uc3omhtmgflk0k7r@4ax.com>,
Mike Smith <mikesmith@godisdead.com> wrote:
Therion Ware <autodelete@city-of-dis.com> wrote:
=Yep another of them questions!
=So, what do you understand patriotism to be?
I'm usually suspicious of it. I mean, being proud
of your country is one thing, but it turns into "we're
better than you" and escalates from there.
In Spanish (or at least, in Mexico), there are two words: "patriota" y
"patriotero". The first means "patriot" in the usual, positive
sense. The latter is meant to encompass the bad things, and
particularly the overly public insistence of your own worth as a
patriot and the worth of your country beyond warrant.
--
======================================================================
"It's not denial. I'm just very selective about
what I accept as reality."
--- Calvin ("Calvin and Hobbes")
======================================================================
Arturo Magidin
magidin@math.berkeley.edu
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| User: "Mike Smith" |
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| Title: Re: OT: What do you understand patriotism to be? |
23 Sep 2004 03:18:29 PM |
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(Arturo Magidin) wrote:
=In Spanish (or at least, in Mexico), there are two
=words: "patriota" y "patriotero". The first means
="patriot" in the usual, positive sense. The latter
=is meant to encompass the bad things, and
=particularly the overly public insistence of your
=own worth as a patriot and the worth of your
=country beyond warrant.
We could use more than one form of the word, too.
__________________________________________
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
Mike Smith | aa #1164 | Founder of SMASH
__________________________________________
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
"If affirmative action means what I just described,
what I'm for, then I'm for it." -GWB, St. Louis, MO,
10/18/00
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| User: "Lord Calvert" |
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| Title: Re: OT: What do you understand patriotism to be? |
23 Sep 2004 05:53:21 PM |
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=In Spanish (or at least, in Mexico), there are two
=words: "patriota" y "patriotero". The first means
="patriot" in the usual, positive sense. The latter
=is meant to encompass the bad things, and
=particularly the overly public insistence of your
=own worth as a patriot and the worth of your
=country beyond warrant.
We could use more than one form of the word, too.
Well, there is pseudo-patriot. A pseudo-patriot is one who waves the flag,
loudly sings the anthem, listens to Toby Keith and then ruthlessly attacks the
principles that made this country great.
Rich Goranson, Amherst, NY, USA (aa#MCMXCIX, a-vet#1)
EAC Department of Applied Rattan Use
"Without faith we might relapse into scientific or rational thinking, which
leads by a slippery slope toward constitutional democracy." - Robert Anton
Wilson
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