(note also that I liked "24"

In article <dulbkh$2lg3$1@bunyip2.cc.uq.edu.au>,
John Wilkins <john@wilkins.id.au> wrote:
...

The America I know and love (and it is not hard for me to say that there are
aspects of the US I do love) is not the America that condones torture. But
you now have (if not before) a military culture that is entirely contrary
to the > principles of rule of law and democracy, aided and encouraged by a
government that is likewise.

Actually, I think the military culture is nowhere _near_ as much to blame
as the current government/administration, and its "cultural"/ideological
roots. There was substantial dislike, and some resistance, to the blithe
disregard of supposed American values that was shoved at them -- and one
main reason that resistance was as "futile" as it proved in fact, was
the over-riding value in American military culture in favor of civilian
control of policy.

And no, I _don't_ think things would have been better here if there had
been a military coup in reaction to the horrors. But I _wish_ devoutly
that American had (it does not) the kind of "political conscience" in
its civil and military service that would lead to public, protesting
resignations when that "civilian policy making" is as wrong/evil as it
has proved to be in our current situation. UK, and I suspect the rest
of the Commonwealth has a bit of backbone in that regard that we are
sadly lacking here.

In article <dulbkh$2lg3$1@bunyip2.cc.uq.edu.au>,
John Wilkins <john@wilkins.id.au> wrote:
....

The America I know and love (and it is not hard for me to say that there are
aspects of the US I do love) is not the America that condones torture. But
you now have (if not before) a military culture that is entirely contrary
to the > principles of rule of law and democracy, aided and encouraged by a
government that is likewise.

Actually, I think the military culture is nowhere _near_ as much to blame
as the current government/administration, and its "cultural"/ideological
roots. There was substantial dislike, and some resistance, to the blithe
disregard of supposed American values that was shoved at them -- and one
main reason that resistance was as "futile" as it proved in fact, was
the over-riding value in American military culture in favor of civilian
control of policy.

And no, I _don't_ think things would have been better here if there had
been a military coup in reaction to the horrors. But I _wish_ devoutly
that American had (it does not) the kind of "political conscience" in
its civil and military service that would lead to public, protesting
resignations when that "civilian policy making" is as wrong/evil as it
has proved to be in our current situation. UK, and I suspect the rest
of the Commonwealth has a bit of backbone in that regard that we are
sadly lacking here.

John Wilkins wrote:

Matt Silberstein wrote:

On Wed, 08 Mar 2006 10:44:42 +1000, in alt.atheism , John Wilkins
<john@wilkins.id.au> in <dul9ci$qq4$3@bunyip2.cc.uq.edu.au> wrote:

Dan Luke wrote:

<MitchAlsup@aol.com> wrote:

magilla wrote:

From the article:

*********************
Indeed, of the 98 deaths documented in "Command's Responsibility,"
more than two-thirds were in U.S. custody in places other than Abu
Ghraib. Four years since the first known death, only 12 detainee
deaths
have resulted in punishment of any kind for any U.S. official. For
the
torture-related deaths - cases where people were suffocated, beaten
to
death, or, as in at least one case, effectively crucified - the
highest
sentence anyone has received is five months in jail. Critically, no
officer above the rank of major has been charged in any detainee
death.

The system of military justice is supposed to reflect and give
force
to America's values, even in wartime.

Well, GW Bush's values but not the average American's values.

I wonder.

Perhaps I am unduly influenced by the benighted cultural circumstances
in which I live, but I have detected exactly zero concern among my
fellow Americans over reports of torture by U. S. soldiers. In fact,
the only time I've heard it mentioned, the comment was to the effect
that the media were traitors for exposing such things.

And it is probably due to my enlightened cultural circumstances, but
that and other horrors of this war are frequently discussed.

And if we ever see the fall of American dominance, this will be one of the
primary indicators of a morally bankrupt government and possibly society that
historians refer to for the next few centuries. You know, like we do for
fascist nations of the past century.

I really want to get offended by that remark. I can't because it is
all too terribly likely to be accurate, but I want to.

Thing is, Matt, just as in those fascist nations there were enlightened
liberals (and leftwing fascistic resisters like in Yugoslavia) who are not
covered by the attributes of their "nation". Nations don't have characters,
but institutions like governments, parties, and other organisations
(administrations) do.

But most importantly, people have characters.

I for one am not offended by your remark. I reserve my feeling of
offense for the government officials who have brought us to this pass.

However, it would sadden me to no end if there was not something in
future histories that pointed out that we were not always like this.
There was a time- most recently, I think, 1940-1945- when the might of
America wasn't turned toward cowing the weak, but protecting them and
lifting them up. The reconstruction of Japan and the Marshall Plan are
two of the things I wish the USA to be remembered for.

However, this all depends on the failure of the US. I for one do not
plan on letting that happen without some sort of determined resistance.
"When in the course of human events, it becomes neccessary....".

The America I know and love (and it is not hard for me to say that there are
aspects of the US I do love) is not the America that condones torture. But you
now have (if not before) a military culture that is entirely contrary to the

We had it before, under Nixon, and Johnson. It comes and goes,
unfortunately. I am not sure there's a way to keep it away permanently.

principles of rule of law and democracy, aided and encouraged by a government
that is likewise. It seems to me that there is something fundamentally wrong
with American democratic structures that permits this sort of behaviour
without public scrutiny.

Here is where we disagree. We are talking about it, aren't we? The
government has resisted tooth and nail, yet the stories are coming out.
Damn, I have more and more respect- and gratitude- for the people who
passed the Freedom of Information Act over here. Is there a comparable
piece of legislation in the UK or Australia (I feel sure there must
be). Anyway, at least part of the story is surfacing. Slow, but it is
coming.

If you want a simple answer, it is in the fact that
Americans are not required to vote as a civic duty. There are many other
things (the failure of American education) that contribute, but if you want a
democracy in which governments are held accountable, you better make sure that
they are so held.

I disagree here. We NEVER were required to vote. But it's only
recently, I think, that things have been this bad. No, voting isn't the
issue, nor is it education, since most people, I really believe, are
decent folk. No, the problem is money, pure and simple. The USA has too
damn much of it, and too damn many people want more of it, when they've
already got too damn much of it already. And to get it, they're willing
to damn themselves and too damn many other people.

--
John S. Wilkins, Postdoctoral Research Fellow, Biohumanities Project
University of Queensland - Blog: evolvethought.blogspot.com
Servum tui ero, ipse vespera

Chris

And here when I saw you guys responding back and forth, I thought it
had to be a pun cascade. Damn you.

On Wed, 08 Mar 2006, John Wilkins <john@wilkins.id.au> wrote:

The America I know and love (and it is not hard for me to say that
there are aspects of the US I do love) is not the America that
condones torture. But you now have (if not before) a military
culture that is entirely contrary to the principles of rule of law
and democracy, aided and encouraged by a government that is
likewise. It seems to me that there is something fundamentally wrong
with American democratic structures that permits this sort of
behaviour without public scrutiny. If you want a simple answer, it
is in the fact that Americans are not required to vote as a civic
duty. There are many other things (the failure of American
education) that contribute, but if you want a democracy in which
governments are held accountable, you better make sure that they are
so held.

Basically, the USA isn't mature enough to operate as a democracy any
more than Iraq or the Palestinian Authority is.

You not only need traditions of civic responsibility and the rule of
law, you need people who care about more than "who's going to do what
for me". So long as we keep voting for whoever promises the best
tax cuts and "get tough on X" stance, there's nothing to slow the
slide into fascism.