| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"" |
| Date: |
02 Mar 2006 12:15:55 AM |
| Object: |
Other Messiahs from Roman occupied Judea |
Heard on the Mark Steel Lectures
(http://www.bbc.co.uk/comedy/guide/articles/m/marksteellectures_999031007.shtml)
a few months ago about the other "messiahs" that were kicking around
Judea around the time of the Roman occupation.
I was surprised to hear that Jesus was one of several pretenders to the
throne of "King of the Jews" and that several miracles attributed to
the famous caucasian-palestinian had been prviously attributed to
several other (not so well publicised) potential messiahs; walking on
water, water into wine etc.
I've tried to find further evidence of these 'alternate messiahs', but
have so far drawn a blank. I was just wondering if anyone could point
me to any sources where I could read about them.
Thanks in advance,
JP
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| User: "Donald E. Flood" |
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| Title: Re: Other Messiahs from Roman occupied Judea |
02 Mar 2006 09:09:39 AM |
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<james.prendergast@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1141280155.204908.283740@p10g2000cwp.googlegroups.com...
Heard on the Mark Steel Lectures
(http://www.bbc.co.uk/comedy/guide/articles/m/marksteellectures_999031007.shtml)
a few months ago about the other "messiahs" that were kicking around
Judea around the time of the Roman occupation.
I was surprised to hear that Jesus was one of several pretenders to the
throne of "King of the Jews" and that several miracles attributed to
the famous caucasian-palestinian had been prviously attributed to
several other (not so well publicised) potential messiahs; walking on
water, water into wine etc.
I've tried to find further evidence of these 'alternate messiahs', but
have so far drawn a blank. I was just wondering if anyone could point
me to any sources where I could read about them.
Thanks in advance,
JP
I saw a program on the Biography Channel or the Biography International
Channel about one of these charlatans. Can't recall the name at the moment,
however. Check your local listings!
.
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| User: "Khubla" |
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| Title: Re: Other Messiahs from Roman occupied Judea |
02 Mar 2006 10:09:26 AM |
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Mr. Flood:
I have a paperback titled "Christianity Before Christ" written by John G
Jackson and published by American Atheist Press, Austin, TX 1985 which list
dozens of these so-called messiahs and gods of old. It addresses exactly
what you are looking for.
Khubla
"Donald E. Flood" <Jehanne@mchsi.com> wrote in message
news:TUDNf.797368$x96.86622@attbi_s72...
<james.prendergast@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1141280155.204908.283740@p10g2000cwp.googlegroups.com...
Heard on the Mark Steel Lectures
(http://www.bbc.co.uk/comedy/guide/articles/m/marksteellectures_999031007.shtml)
a few months ago about the other "messiahs" that were kicking around
Judea around the time of the Roman occupation.
I was surprised to hear that Jesus was one of several pretenders to the
throne of "King of the Jews" and that several miracles attributed to
the famous caucasian-palestinian had been prviously attributed to
several other (not so well publicised) potential messiahs; walking on
water, water into wine etc.
I've tried to find further evidence of these 'alternate messiahs', but
have so far drawn a blank. I was just wondering if anyone could point
me to any sources where I could read about them.
Thanks in advance,
JP
I saw a program on the Biography Channel or the Biography International
Channel about one of these charlatans. Can't recall the name at the
moment, however. Check your local listings!
.
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| User: "Donald E. Flood" |
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| Title: Re: Other Messiahs from Roman occupied Judea |
02 Mar 2006 11:51:33 AM |
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"Khubla" <khubla@adelphia.net> wrote in message
news:j6WdneZnJbsphZrZ4p2dnA@adelphia.com...
Mr. Flood:
I have a paperback titled "Christianity Before Christ" written by John G
Jackson and published by American Atheist Press, Austin, TX 1985 which
list dozens of these so-called messiahs and gods of old. It addresses
exactly what you are looking for.
Khubla
Thanks!
"Donald E. Flood" <Jehanne@mchsi.com> wrote in message
news:TUDNf.797368$x96.86622@attbi_s72...
<james.prendergast@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:1141280155.204908.283740@p10g2000cwp.googlegroups.com...
Heard on the Mark Steel Lectures
(http://www.bbc.co.uk/comedy/guide/articles/m/marksteellectures_999031007.shtml)
a few months ago about the other "messiahs" that were kicking around
Judea around the time of the Roman occupation.
I was surprised to hear that Jesus was one of several pretenders to the
throne of "King of the Jews" and that several miracles attributed to
the famous caucasian-palestinian had been prviously attributed to
several other (not so well publicised) potential messiahs; walking on
water, water into wine etc.
I've tried to find further evidence of these 'alternate messiahs', but
have so far drawn a blank. I was just wondering if anyone could point
me to any sources where I could read about them.
Thanks in advance,
JP
I saw a program on the Biography Channel or the Biography International
Channel about one of these charlatans. Can't recall the name at the
moment, however. Check your local listings!
.
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| User: "wbarwell" |
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| Title: Re: Other Messiahs from Roman occupied Judea |
02 Mar 2006 03:53:05 PM |
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Donald E. Flood wrote:
"Khubla" <khubla@adelphia.net> wrote in message
news:j6WdneZnJbsphZrZ4p2dnA@adelphia.com...
Mr. Flood:
I have a paperback titled "Christianity Before Christ" written by John G
Jackson and published by American Atheist Press, Austin, TX 1985 which
list dozens of these so-called messiahs and gods of old. It addresses
exactly what you are looking for.
Khubla
Thanks!
http://atheism.about.com/od/bookreviews/fr/JewishMessiahs.htm
....
Some 70 different messianic figures are dealt with in the book, although
some with greater detail than others. Some are tragic and some are comic,
but most have been forgotten. In many cases, their stories and original
documents are translated for the first time in this book, making it a
unique resource.
Some might find that his definition of ?messiah? is too broad because he
bases his thesis on the idea that the role of the messiah encompasses the
traditional Jewish roles of king, prophet and priest. Thus, many who are
believed to have filled any of those roles ? like Moses or David ? are
regarded as ?messiahs? as well. Criticisms of this are valid, but it is a
perspective which allows Lenowitz to place the messianic role more firmly
in Jewish history and tradition.
Some may also find that his scholarship and writing can be difficult at
times. Rather than simply engaging in historical analysis, he also writes a
fair amount on textual critique. Lenowitz even seems to feel that the very
life of a messiah is somehow a ?text? in and of itself:
?I came to see messianic movements as a variety of drama, a constantly
repeated ritual, a tragedy as I guess Jewish political life was.?
Jewish Messiahs: From the Galilee to Crown Heights
Because messianic movements rely upon, and produce, important religious
documents, there is some basis for approaching and critiquing them in such
a fashion. However, it is a perspective which may bore non-scholars and
should be kept in mind by anyone interested in the book.
--
An Inuit hunter asked the local missionary priest: "If I did not know about
God and sin, would I go to hell?" "No," said the priest, "not if you did
not know." "Then why," asked the Inuit earnestly, "did you tell me?"
-Annie Dillard, Pilgrim at Tinker Creek
Cheerful Charlie
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Other Messiahs from Roman occupied Judea |
02 Mar 2006 05:14:30 PM |
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wbarwell wrote:
Donald E. Flood wrote:
"Khubla" <khubla@adelphia.net> wrote in message
news:j6WdneZnJbsphZrZ4p2dnA@adelphia.com...
Mr. Flood:
I have a paperback titled "Christianity Before Christ" written by John G
Jackson and published by American Atheist Press, Austin, TX 1985 which
list dozens of these so-called messiahs and gods of old. It addresses
exactly what you are looking for.
Khubla
Thanks!
http://atheism.about.com/od/bookreviews/fr/JewishMessiahs.htm
...
Some 70 different messianic figures are dealt with in the book, although
some with greater detail than others. Some are tragic and some are comic,
but most have been forgotten. In many cases, their stories and original
documents are translated for the first time in this book, making it a
unique resource.
Some might find that his definition of ?messiah? is too broad because he
bases his thesis on the idea that the role of the messiah encompasses the
traditional Jewish roles of king, prophet and priest. Thus, many who are
believed to have filled any of those roles ? like Moses or David ? are
regarded as ?messiahs? as well. Criticisms of this are valid, but it is a
perspective which allows Lenowitz to place the messianic role more firmly
in Jewish history and tradition.
Some may also find that his scholarship and writing can be difficult at
times. Rather than simply engaging in historical analysis, he also writes a
fair amount on textual critique. Lenowitz even seems to feel that the very
life of a messiah is somehow a ?text? in and of itself:
?I came to see messianic movements as a variety of drama, a constantly
repeated ritual, a tragedy as I guess Jewish political life was.?
Jewish Messiahs: From the Galilee to Crown Heights
Because messianic movements rely upon, and produce, important religious
documents, there is some basis for approaching and critiquing them in such
a fashion. However, it is a perspective which may bore non-scholars and
should be kept in mind by anyone interested in the book.
--
An Inuit hunter asked the local missionary priest: "If I did not know about
God and sin, would I go to hell?" "No," said the priest, "not if you did
not know." "Then why," asked the Inuit earnestly, "did you tell me?"
-Annie Dillard, Pilgrim at Tinker Creek
Cheerful Charlie
Thanks for the info guys.
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| User: "wbarwell" |
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| Title: Re: Other Messiahs from Roman occupied Judea |
02 Mar 2006 03:47:14 PM |
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wrote:
Heard on the Mark Steel Lectures
(http://www.bbc.co.uk/comedy/guide/articles/m/marksteellectures_999031007.shtml)
a few months ago about the other "messiahs" that were kicking around
Judea around the time of the Roman occupation.
I was surprised to hear that Jesus was one of several pretenders to the
throne of "King of the Jews" and that several miracles attributed to
the famous caucasian-palestinian had been prviously attributed to
several other (not so well publicised) potential messiahs; walking on
water, water into wine etc.
I've tried to find further evidence of these 'alternate messiahs', but
have so far drawn a blank. I was just wondering if anyone could point
me to any sources where I could read about them.
Thanks in advance,
JP
Some are in the new testament, though little information is given.
More can be found in Josephus. The Dead Sea scrolls mention an
Essene "teacher of righteousness" who was executed. A century
later some Essenes were still expecting his return. There were
a few later prophets, the Bar Kocha revolt of 130 BCE saw
Bar Kocha as a messiah. The whole eschatalogical strain
in Judiasm goes back 2 centuries before Christ and can be
found in some Essene Dead Sea scroll documents. Josephus also
mentions John the Baptist in some detail.
There are a fair number of recent books that examine
all of this in some detail.
--
An Inuit hunter asked the local missionary priest: "If I did not know about
God and sin, would I go to hell?" "No," said the priest, "not if you did
not know." "Then why," asked the Inuit earnestly, "did you tell me?"
-Annie Dillard, Pilgrim at Tinker Creek
Cheerful Charlie
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