Religions > Atheism > Paganization Of The Youth Led By The Depraved Entertainment Industry
| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"Sound of Trumpet" |
| Date: |
23 Oct 2006 09:00:59 PM |
| Object: |
Paganization Of The Youth Led By The Depraved Entertainment Industry |
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=3D52540
Youth 'paganization' led by entertainment industry
Dr. Ted Baehr
Posted: October 21, 2006
1:00 a.m. Eastern
Your children and grandchildren are in danger of losing their Christian
faith, according to Mission America, the Barna Research Group and the
New York Times. Entertainment is a leading influence in the
paganization of today's youth. According to the Motion Picture
Association and A.C. Nielsen, the average child will spend up to 63,000
hours with the mass media of entertainment by the time he or she is 17
years old, but only 11,000 hours in school (most of which are
anti-Christian), 4,000 hours with their parents and 800 hours in church
if they never miss a Sunday.
The destruction of the Motion Picture Code in the 1960s, the advent of
the new movie ratings system in 1969, the degradation of television in
the 1970s and 1980s, and the advent of softcore and hardcore
pornography on the Internet all have resulted in a lowering of moral,
spiritual and intellectual standards. And now, even our public schools
are preaching sexual promiscuity and perversion. In fact, there are
32,000 cases of child sexual abuse by American school teachers each
year, according to statistics from the U.S. Dept. of Education
("Educator Sexual Misconduct," by Charol Shakeshaft, 2004).
To help you protect your children and grandchildren from this media
terrorism, MOVIEGUIDE=AE began publishing movie reviews for families
more than 21 years ago. Since then, several other publications and web
sites have attempted to serve the same or a similar purpose. Some did
not last. Some are still with us. This is fine. We believe in free
enterprise and competition.
The New York Times calls MOVIEGUIDE=AE the most conservative Christian
review service, which is extremely interesting since we are the most
familiar with the workings of the entertainment industry (I financed
five feature films and was the president of the organization that
produced the Emmy Award-winning "The Lion, The Witch and The Wardrobe"
for CBS Television in 1979 and 1980, besides producing hundreds of
other television programs) and the most degreed (Dr. Tom Snyder got his
Ph.D. from Northwestern in Film Studies and Dr. Ted Baehr is the
Chairman of the Advisory Board of the Christian Institute for the Study
of Media, at the Center for the Arts, Religion and Education (CARE), at
the Graduate Theological Union (GTU) at the University of California at
Berkeley). In this regard, the New York Times on Dec. 26, 2005 noted
that MOVIEGUIDE=AE called the homosexual movie "Brokeback Mountain"
abhorrent, while the Office for Film and Broadcasting of the United
States Conference of Catholic Bishops said, "The universal themes of
love and loss ring true."
The New York Times went on to say that Christianity Today "favorably
reviewed 'Vera Drake', about a British woman who secretly helps
terminate unwanted pregnancies, saying that it 'portrays immoral
behavior and leaves us to make up our minds about the film.' While Mr.
Moring said many readers objected to a Christian publication endorsing
a movie that showed abortion in a positive light, the site named 'Vera
Drake' as one of the Top 10 movies of 2004, a list headed by 'Eternal
Sunshine of the Spotless Mind.' ('The Passion of the Christ' did not
make the list. . .)." But, the "Passion of the Christ" did win the
Christian Film & Television Commission=99 MOVIEGUIDE Epiphany Prize of
$50,000!
Another family guide to movies is the Dove Foundation. They award Dove
Family Approved seals to movies they find fit for family viewing. In
the tradition originally established by MOVIEGUIDE=AE, they have codes
for the level of language, sex, violence, drugs, nudity, and the
occult. They include descriptions of content and give between one and
five doves based on how well they liked the movie. They also have a
section in which they supposedly explain the worldview of each movie.
MOVIEGUIDE=AE reviewers are trained to pay very close attention to a
movie's worldview. As Christians, we view the world through the
filter of God's Word, the Bible. We begin with a solid belief that God
created the world with both physical and moral laws that govern life.
We review movies with these laws foremost in mind. Many movies are made
by people who wish to promote another worldview. We consider it a vital
part of our work to expose themes in opposition to Christianity. Thus,
we will often give stern warnings against "family" films that promote
concepts in opposition to a Christian worldview.
The Dove Foundation gave its Dove Family Approved seal to "The Ant
Bully". Their "worldview" section opened with "This story is very cute"
and closed with, "The characters are delightful and this is a fun
filmgoing experience, approved by Dove." Even the secular Box Office
Mojo review said, "The idea - man is bad, ant is good, and the only
thing worth exterminating is one's individuality - sounds more like a
college professor's political science class or a Hezbollah training
video than a kids' movie."
MOVIEGUIDE=AE said:
"Simply, 'The Ant Bully' is very preachy. It mocks God. It extols
Communism. It also mocks human beings. As such, it also is one of the
most politically correct movies of the year. It also lacks any joy or
fun. There are a few exciting moments, but they are too few and far
between.
"In previous animated movies about bugs, 'Antz' and 'A Bug's Life', the
message was that the individual and the group are equally important. As
such, they solved the political problem of Society versus the
Individual in a way reflecting Christian values. They also pointed the
way to a solution to the philosophical problem of the Many and the One,
or the variety in the universe created by God compared to the unity of
God's creation. (By the way, God's revelation in Holy Scripture that He
is a Holy Trinity, or Triune, also solves these vexing intellectual
problems or logical contradictions for us.)
"'Ant Bully' shows that a lot of big stars, creative people and good
animation cannot save a mediocre, politically correct anti-human
environmentalist screed that violates God's revelation."
Moviegoers this year tended to agree with MOVIEGUIDE=AE's biblical
assessment. "Cars", our favorite animated movie of the year so far,
made $243 million, our second favorite, "Ice Age: The Meltdown" made
$195 million, "Over the Hedge" made $155 million, and our least
favorite "The Ant Bully" made $27 million.
The Dove Foundation also gave its Family Seal of Approval to such films
as "Lady in the Water" (New Age, mixed pagan worldview), "An
Inconvenient Truth" (strong environmentalist worldview with
anti-capitalist elements), "The Shaggy Dog" (very strong New Age pagan,
false religious worldview with very strong Americanized references to
Buddhist meditation and prayer), "Doogal" (strong pagan worldview), and
"Nanny McPhee" (very strong occult worldview).
Lowering standards like this puts your children and grandchildren at
risk.
If you want to protect the faith and values of your children and
grandchildren and are looking for reviews with a solid moral,
spiritual, and biblical foundation that you can trust, look no further
than MOVIEGUIDE=AE. Visit our website, www.movieguide.org, for reviews
you can trust and articles that can help your family become media-wise.
The standards that you defend today are the standards that will guide
your children and grandchildren tomorrow.
Editor's Note: David Outten, managing editor of MOVIEGUIDE, contributed
to this column.
Dr. Ted Baehr is the founder and publisher of MOVIEGUIDE=AE, chairman of
the Christian Film &Television Commission, and a well-known movie
critic, educator, lecturer and media pundit. He also is the author of
several books, including "Faith In God And Generals." For more
information, please call 800-899-6684 or go to the MOVIEGUIDE=AE website.
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| User: "Peter Bruells" |
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| Title: Re: Paganization Of The Youth Led By The Depraved Entertainment Industry |
24 Oct 2006 08:46:59 AM |
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"Sound of Trumpet" <soundoftrumpet@myway.com> writes:
Your children and grandchildren are in danger of losing their Christian
faith, according to Mission America, the Barna Research Group and the
New York Times. Entertainment is a leading influence in the
paganization of today's youth. According to the Motion Picture
Association and A.C. Nielsen, the average child will spend up to 63,000
hours with the mass media of entertainment
Wow. That's like 10 hours every day - from the cradle to age 17. I
wonder how they find time for their satanic masses.
by the time he or she is 17 years old, but only 11,000 hours in
school (most of which are anti-Christian),
Hmmm... Let's take 12 years of school. That's 916 hours of school in
a year. Let's say 5 hours of school per day at 5 days per week, 25
hrs/week. That's 36 weeks of shool per year. Hey, Americans, do you
really get that much vacation?
4,000 hours with their parents
Probably during black masses, see above,
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| User: "Midwinter" |
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| Title: Re: Paganization Of The Youth Led By The Depraved Entertainment Industry |
24 Oct 2006 05:54:15 AM |
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"Sound of Trumpet" <soundoftrumpet@myway.com> wrote:
Your children and grandchildren are in danger of losing their Christian
faith, according to Mission America
I'm actually British, so I live in a dodgy enough country as it is, but at
least it's not a theocracy. But in general, if my kids want to be
Christian, they're welcome to be Christian - if that's the religion they
think suits them best. Religion is a personal matter, after all.
If they want to be pagan, that's fine too. If they want to be atheist, and
think I'm a fool for believing what I do, then I've no problem with that.
But the moment they adopt a religion, or lack of religion, and then start
trying to force their views on someone else is the moment they risk being
disowned.
Association and A.C. Nielsen, the average child will spend up to 63,000
hours with the mass media of entertainment by the time he or she is 17
years old, but only 11,000 hours in school (most of which are
anti-Christian), 4,000 hours with their parents and 800 hours in church
if they never miss a Sunday.
Eight hundred hours sitting in a mansion of wood and stone looking for a
god who designed you to LIVE.
This is fine. We believe in free
enterprise and competition.
How endearingly reasonable of you.
The New York Times went on to say that Christianity Today "favorably
reviewed 'Vera Drake', about a British woman who secretly helps
terminate unwanted pregnancies, saying that it 'portrays immoral
behavior and leaves us to make up our minds about the film.' While Mr.
Moring said many readers objected to a Christian publication endorsing
a movie that showed abortion in a positive light
I'm sure most Christians, at least outside the USA, would welcome any
presentation that encourages people to think about issues of morality. God
didn't give you a brain just for a laugh. He gave it to you so that you
could use it.
We review movies with these laws foremost in mind. Many movies are made
by people who wish to promote another worldview. We consider it a vital
part of our work to expose themes in opposition to Christianity.
'Expose' implies conspiracy, which in turn implies immorality. In other
words, you try to prevent people from utilising that God-given brain by
telling them what you think they ought to believe about the film even
before they see it. All reviews do this to an extent, but reviews based on
a specific, fundamentalist religious 'morality' are of even less use.
Moviegoers this year tended to agree with MOVIEGUIDEŽ's biblical
assessment. "Cars", our favorite animated movie of the year so far,
made $243 million, our second favorite, "Ice Age: The Meltdown" made
$195 million, "Over the Hedge" made $155 million, and our least
favorite "The Ant Bully" made $27 million.
It may be that there were other reasons for this. For example, it may be,
however difficult it might be for a radical religionist to grasp, that Ant
Bully simply wasn't very good, whereas Ice Age 2 and Cars were.
One thing I've noticed about fundamentalists is their keenness to attribute
religious awareness to people who show no sign of it. If 'Ant Bully' is
unpopular, then in the mind of this reviewer it's *obviously* because
people saw in it the same non-Biblical message that he did, and rejected it
as un-Christian. Likewise, at this time of year we're subjected to the
usual whinging from fundamentalists who're convinced that people are
engaging in Devil worship and rebelling against Christ when they join in
Hallowe'en games.
The possibility that most people who went to see 'Ant Bully', or who stayed
away, didn't notice any religious message in it at all is entirely beyond
such people. Similarly, the fact that a huge number of people don't
consider any Christian or pagan significance in Hallowe'en is equally
unthinkable.
Lowering standards like this puts your children and grandchildren at
risk.
Danger, Will Robinson: Your children are at risk of learning to think for
themselves!
The standards that you defend today are the standards that will guide
your children and grandchildren tomorrow.
Standards are one thing. Narrow-minded religious intolerance is something
else.
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| User: "Nosterill" |
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| Title: Re: Paganization Of The Youth Led By The Depraved Entertainment Industry |
24 Oct 2006 07:40:19 AM |
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Midwinter wrote:
"Sound of Trumpet" <soundoftrumpet@myway.com> wrote:
Your children and grandchildren are in danger of losing their Christian
faith, according to Mission America
I'm actually British, so I live in a dodgy enough country as it is, but at
least it's not a theocracy. But in general, if my kids want to be
Christian, they're welcome to be Christian - if that's the religion they
think suits them best. Religion is a personal matter, after all.
If they want to be pagan, that's fine too. If they want to be atheist, and
think I'm a fool for believing what I do, then I've no problem with that.
Excellent principles with which I wholeheartedly agree, but is it
practical? Can you really give children a faith neutral upbringing? A
parent's beliefs, even if not consciously made an issue of, must form
the basis of a young child's world view and will, in some way, colour
the way they develop. I did not intentionally set out to raise my sons
as atheists, but since I didn't raise them in any faith either then
atheists they will be.
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| User: "Midwinter" |
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| Title: Re: Paganization Of The Youth Led By The Depraved Entertainment Industry |
24 Oct 2006 07:04:39 PM |
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"Nosterill" <fladgate@hotmail.com> wrote:
Excellent principles with which I wholeheartedly agree, but is it
practical? Can you really give children a faith neutral upbringing? A
parent's beliefs, even if not consciously made an issue of, must form
the basis of a young child's world view and will, in some way, colour
the way they develop. I did not intentionally set out to raise my sons
as atheists, but since I didn't raise them in any faith either then
atheists they will be.
Fair point. Probably I can't be entirely neutral. After all, there's no
reason why I should hide my beliefs from them. But that's a long way,
though - at least in my mind - from telling them that this or that is what
they *must* believe.
I want to allow them to make their own decisions as far as religion is
concerned - but I don't need to pretend religion doesn't exist to do that.
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| User: "Martin Kaletsch" |
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| Title: Re: Paganization Of The Youth Led By The Depraved Entertainment Industry |
24 Oct 2006 08:30:44 AM |
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Nosterill wrote:
Midwinter wrote:
"Sound of Trumpet" <soundoftrumpet@myway.com> wrote:
Your children and grandchildren are in danger of losing their Christian
faith, according to Mission America
I'm actually British, so I live in a dodgy enough country as it is, but
at
least it's not a theocracy. But in general, if my kids want to be
Christian, they're welcome to be Christian - if that's the religion they
think suits them best. Religion is a personal matter, after all.
If they want to be pagan, that's fine too. If they want to be atheist,
and think I'm a fool for believing what I do, then I've no problem with
that.
Excellent principles with which I wholeheartedly agree, but is it
practical? Can you really give children a faith neutral upbringing? A
parent's beliefs, even if not consciously made an issue of, must form
the basis of a young child's world view and will, in some way, colour
the way they develop. I did not intentionally set out to raise my sons
as atheists, but since I didn't raise them in any faith either then
atheists they will be.
Don't be to sure, I know at least three young people who were raised by
atheist parents but became convinced christians!
(Two of them became intollerant fundamentalists - one is open, friendly,
tollerant to all other believes and a great person!)
I personally don't think it is possible to give children a "faith neutral"
upbringing, but there is a wide difference between influencing them by
showing them the way you see the world and actively trying to bind them to
a certain faith.
--
Martin Kaletsch
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| User: "Howard Brazee" |
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| Title: Re: Paganization Of The Youth Led By The Depraved Entertainment Industry |
24 Oct 2006 05:05:15 PM |
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On Tue, 24 Oct 2006 15:30:44 +0200, Martin Kaletsch <mano_mk@gmx.de>
wrote:
I personally don't think it is possible to give children a "faith neutral"
upbringing, but there is a wide difference between influencing them by
showing them the way you see the world and actively trying to bind them to
a certain faith.
Certainly not if "faith neutral" means all religions have equal
exposure and opportunity.
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| User: "Al Klein" |
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| Title: Re: Paganization Of The Youth Led By The Depraved Entertainment Industry |
24 Oct 2006 07:49:04 PM |
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On Tue, 24 Oct 2006 22:05:15 GMT, Howard Brazee <howard@brazee.net>
wrote:
On Tue, 24 Oct 2006 15:30:44 +0200, Martin Kaletsch <mano_mk@gmx.de>
wrote:
I personally don't think it is possible to give children a "faith neutral"
upbringing, but there is a wide difference between influencing them by
showing them the way you see the world and actively trying to bind them to
a certain faith.
Certainly not if "faith neutral" means all religions have equal
exposure and opportunity.
But certainly yes if it means that all religion is just ignored. More
than one of us posting to aa has been raised that way.
--
rukbat at optonline dot net
Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise
as false, and by the rulers as useful."
- Seneca the Younger
(random sig, produced by SigChanger)
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| User: "Nosterill" |
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| Title: Re: Paganization Of The Youth Led By The Depraved Entertainment Industry |
25 Oct 2006 08:33:11 AM |
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Al Klein wrote:
On Tue, 24 Oct 2006 22:05:15 GMT, Howard Brazee <howard@brazee.net>
wrote:
On Tue, 24 Oct 2006 15:30:44 +0200, Martin Kaletsch <mano_mk@gmx.de>
wrote:
I personally don't think it is possible to give children a "faith neutral"
upbringing, but there is a wide difference between influencing them by
showing them the way you see the world and actively trying to bind them to
a certain faith.
Certainly not if "faith neutral" means all religions have equal
exposure and opportunity.
But certainly yes if it means that all religion is just ignored. More
than one of us posting to aa has been raised that way.
That's how I am raising my sons but, living in the UK where we are far
less infested with Jesus than the US, they are very unlikely to drift
into any religion in the future. If they reach maturity without having
been subject to proselytization then all religions will appear as
implausible mythology to them. I have, de facto, raised them as
atheists so it isn't truly neutral.
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| User: "Al Klein" |
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| Title: Re: Paganization Of The Youth Led By The Depraved Entertainment Industry |
25 Oct 2006 09:32:34 AM |
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On 25 Oct 2006 06:33:11 -0700, "Nosterill" <fladgate@hotmail.com>
wrote:
Al Klein wrote:
But certainly yes if it means that all religion is just ignored. More
than one of us posting to aa has been raised that way.
That's how I am raising my sons but, living in the UK where we are far
less infested with Jesus than the US, they are very unlikely to drift
into any religion in the future. If they reach maturity without having
been subject to proselytization then all religions will appear as
implausible mythology to them.
I was subjected to the normal amount of Christian proselytization,
maybe a bit more at times, but by the age of 6 religion seemed
nonsensical to me, and I've never seen any reason to think otherwise,
so the proselytization fell on deaf ears.
--
rukbat at optonline dot net
"Creationists are the best evidence we have that there is no intelligent design."
-Josef Balluch
(random sig, produced by SigChanger)
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| User: "John Schilling" |
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| Title: Re: Paganization Of The Youth Led By The Depraved Entertainment Industry |
25 Oct 2006 06:42:16 AM |
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On 24 Oct 2006 05:40:19 -0700, "Nosterill" <fladgate@hotmail.com> wrote:
Midwinter wrote:
"Sound of Trumpet" <soundoftrumpet@myway.com> wrote:
Your children and grandchildren are in danger of losing their Christian
faith, according to Mission America
I'm actually British, so I live in a dodgy enough country as it is, but at
least it's not a theocracy. But in general, if my kids want to be
Christian, they're welcome to be Christian - if that's the religion they
think suits them best. Religion is a personal matter, after all.
If they want to be pagan, that's fine too. If they want to be atheist, and
think I'm a fool for believing what I do, then I've no problem with that.
Excellent principles with which I wholeheartedly agree, but is it
practical? Can you really give children a faith neutral upbringing? A
parent's beliefs, even if not consciously made an issue of, must form
the basis of a young child's world view and will, in some way, colour
the way they develop. I did not intentionally set out to raise my sons
as atheists, but since I didn't raise them in any faith either then
atheists they will be.
You could, in principle, raise your children in a faith you do *not*
want them to adhere to in adulthood, but deliberately do such a "bad"
job that they are certain to rebel against it by adolescence. That
would be neutral w/re every faith but one, and if you're careful not
to block off any important bits of theological landscape with your
one carefully-chosen pseudo-faith it should be close enough.
Whole lot of trouble, though, with the possibility of backfiring,
and since the society around you *won't* be faith-neutral, you'd
really just be abdicating that role on favor of, well, whomever
else picks up the ball.
--
*John Schilling * "Anything worth doing, *
*Member:AIAA,NRA,ACLU,SAS,LP * is worth doing for money" *
*Chief Scientist & General Partner * -13th Rule of Acquisition *
*White Elephant Research, LLC * "There is no substitute *
*schillin@spock.usc.edu * for success" *
*661-951-9107 or 661-275-6795 * -58th Rule of Acquisition *
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| User: "Midwinter" |
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| Title: Re: Paganization Of The Youth Led By The Depraved Entertainment Industry |
25 Oct 2006 09:52:36 AM |
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John Schilling <schillin@spock.usc.edu> wrote:
That would be neutral w/re every faith but one
Except in the sense that it would make other faiths seem to have more merit
in comparison than is actually the case. I'm not sure this sort of
deliberate attempt to engineer a rejection of a single faith would be any
less potentially destructive than an attempt to indoctrinate someone into
one.
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| User: "John Schilling" |
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| Title: Re: Paganization Of The Youth Led By The Depraved Entertainment Industry |
27 Oct 2006 10:09:52 AM |
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On Wed, 25 Oct 2006 09:52:36 -0500, Midwinter <midwinter_m@hotmail.co.uk>
wrote:
John Schilling <schillin@spock.usc.edu> wrote:
That would be neutral w/re every faith but one
Except in the sense that it would make other faiths seem to have more merit
in comparison than is actually the case.
In comparison with *what*?
More merit than the bogus "faith" that you're peddling, sure. That's the
point. The kid rejects the bogo-faith, and choses a "real" faith instead.
With no real faith being privileged over any other, with no real faith
seeming (from your actions, at least) to have more merit than any other.
Including faiths such as atheism, agnosticism, and secular humanism. And
yes, Virginia, for this purpose they *are* faiths. Belief systems which
you are deliberately not teaching to your child, which are clearly better
to what you are teaching your child, but which are not a priori better
than any other belief system. The kid gets to make an unbiased choice.
Or, as noted, a choice subject to external biases.
--
*John Schilling * "Anything worth doing, *
*Member:AIAA,NRA,ACLU,SAS,LP * is worth doing for money" *
*Chief Scientist & General Partner * -13th Rule of Acquisition *
*White Elephant Research, LLC * "There is no substitute *
*schillin@spock.usc.edu * for success" *
*661-951-9107 or 661-275-6795 * -58th Rule of Acquisition *
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| User: "Midwinter" |
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| Title: Re: Paganization Of The Youth Led By The Depraved Entertainment Industry |
27 Oct 2006 07:28:27 PM |
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John Schilling <schillin@spock.usc.edu> wrote:
Except in the sense that it would make other faiths seem to have more
merit in comparison than is actually the case.
In comparison with *what*?
With an unbiased perception of the faiths in question. What else?
And yes, Virginia, for this purpose they *are* faiths. Belief systems
which you are deliberately not teaching to your child, which are
clearly better to what you are teaching your child
Who exactly is Virginia?
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| User: "John Schilling" |
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| Title: Re: Paganization Of The Youth Led By The Depraved Entertainment Industry |
31 Oct 2006 07:26:21 PM |
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On Fri, 27 Oct 2006 19:28:27 -0500, Midwinter <midwinter_m@hotmail.co.uk>
wrote:
John Schilling <schillin@spock.usc.edu> wrote:
Except in the sense that it would make other faiths seem to have more
merit in comparison than is actually the case.
In comparison with *what*?
With an unbiased perception of the faiths in question. What else?
What exactly do you mean by "other faiths", and "the faiths in question"?
I teach my children Traditional Literalist Santa Worship, long past the
point where ordinary parents give up on that facade and to the exclusion
of any other sort of theology. My children very predictablty figure out
that this is *****, and seek a different theological world view.
According to you, they are handicapped by the fact that I have
somehow endowed "other faiths" with more merit than they deserve
in comparison with "the faiths in question".
Which theological world views are "other faiths", which ones are "the
faiths in question", and how have I privileged one over the other?
If you're merely pointing out that I have made, well, every other
theological world view known to man, seem to have more merit than
Traditional Literalist Santa Worship, well, duh, and so what?
And yes, Virginia, for this purpose they *are* faiths. Belief systems
which you are deliberately not teaching to your child, which are
clearly better to what you are teaching your child
Who exactly is Virginia?
A very silly girl who was taught to believe in Santa Clause long after
that sort of nonsense should have been dispensed with.
--
*John Schilling * "Anything worth doing, *
*Member:AIAA,NRA,ACLU,SAS,LP * is worth doing for money" *
*Chief Scientist & General Partner * -13th Rule of Acquisition *
*White Elephant Research, LLC * "There is no substitute *
*schillin@spock.usc.edu * for success" *
*661-951-9107 or 661-275-6795 * -58th Rule of Acquisition *
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| User: "Midwinter" |
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| Title: Re: Paganization Of The Youth Led By The Depraved Entertainment Industry |
01 Nov 2006 06:06:52 AM |
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John Schilling <schillin@spock.usc.edu> wrote:
What exactly do you mean by "other faiths", and "the faiths in
question"?
At first I had to wonder if you had been paying any attention at all.
I teach my children Traditional Literalist Santa Worship, long past the
point where ordinary parents give up on that facade
Then you are a fool, and do your children no favours.
My children very predictablty figure out
that this is *****, and seek a different theological world view.
Indeed. And no doubt feel some measure of betrayal that their parents
have lied to them - especially if their parents have continued lying "long
past the point where ordinary parents give up".
According to you, they are handicapped by the fact that I have
somehow endowed "other faiths" with more merit than they deserve
in comparison with "the faiths in question".
I have said nothing whatsoever about 'handicapping' your children. That
implies placing them at a disadvantage. I have said that if they are
taught as you originally suggested - they are raised *badly* in a faith
you do *not* want them to adopt - that you are not providing a faith-
neutral upbringing for them, and that they may well, in rebelling against
the faith you taught them badly, perceive others as more appealing than
they would have with a truly neutral upbringing.
I am reading this from alt.religion.wicca, which can provide a good
example. A number of the most ferociously anti-Christian Wiccans and
other pagans are those who have been brought up Christian and come to
paganism and witchcraft out of a desire - consciously or otherwise - to
rebel against Christianity.
As I said, attempts to deliberately engineer your children's opinion of
religion or a particular faith - whether for it or against it - are likely
to have some undesirable results.
Who exactly is Virginia?
A very silly girl who was taught to believe in Santa Clause long after
that sort of nonsense should have been dispensed with.
And what relevance does Virginia have here? (Incidentally, as someone who
teaches Traditional Literalist Santa Worship, you really ought to know
that it's 'Claus', not 'Clause'. A clause is something you find in a
contract.)
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| User: "Howard Brazee" |
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| Title: Re: Paganization Of The Youth Led By The Depraved Entertainment Industry |
31 Oct 2006 09:46:25 PM |
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On Tue, 31 Oct 2006 17:26:21 -0800, John Schilling
<schillin@spock.usc.edu> wrote:
I teach my children Traditional Literalist Santa Worship, long past the
point where ordinary parents give up on that facade and to the exclusion
of any other sort of theology. My children very predictablty figure out
that this is *****, and seek a different theological world view.
On the other hand my son has children of his own, but he claims to
still believe in the Tooth Fairy. He doesn't see that disbelief has
the same upside as belief does.
Sort of like a politician telling us how religious he is.
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| User: "Jack Tingle" |
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| Title: Re: Paganization Of The Youth Led By The Depraved Entertainment Industry |
27 Oct 2006 06:29:31 PM |
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On Fri, 27 Oct 2006 08:09:52 -0700, John Schilling
<schillin@spock.usc.edu> wrote:
Including faiths such as atheism, agnosticism, and secular humanism. And
yes, Virginia, for this purpose they *are* faiths. Belief systems which
you are deliberately not teaching to your child, which are clearly better
to what you are teaching your child, but which are not a priori better
than any other belief system. The kid gets to make an unbiased choice.
A minor point: agnosticism is not really a faith. I'm not even sure
it's a belief structure.
There is no positive act of faith required to say "I don't know" (or
even "I don't care" depending on how you look at it). I do agree that
the other two do require acts of faith, though the leap of faith for
secular humanism is more like a _skip_ of faith.
The argument that agnostics are gutless/polite atheists, and thereby
do have a faith, doesn't hold water to me. I have a hard time with any
group of (generously) a few hundred million people (the atheists)
telling 5-ish billion theists they're all wrong. They might be, but
there are 5-ish billion of them. Some of them might be right. Even if
only one is, atheism is wrong. Those are bad odds. I prefer to defer
the decision.
Regards,
Jack Tingle
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| User: "John W. Kennedy" |
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| Title: Re: Paganization Of The Youth Led By The Depraved Entertainment Industry |
30 Oct 2006 09:13:19 PM |
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Jack Tingle wrote:
A minor point: agnosticism is not really a faith.
Actually, it is. "Agnosticism" really means the positive believe that
the truth or untruth of the existence of God cannot be ascertained.
Unfortunately, decades of abuse have made it impossible to use in that
sense.
--
John W. Kennedy
"The blind rulers of Logres
Nourished the land on a fallacy of rational virtue."
-- Charles Williams. "Taliessin through Logres: Prelude"
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| User: "thomas p." |
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| Title: Re: Paganization Of The Youth Led By The Depraved Entertainment Industry |
01 Nov 2006 06:03:37 AM |
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John W. Kennedy wrote:
Jack Tingle wrote:
A minor point: agnosticism is not really a faith.
Actually, it is. "Agnosticism" really means the positive believe that
the truth or untruth of the existence of God cannot be ascertained.
Unfortunately, decades of abuse have made it impossible to use in that
sense.
I agree that the original sense of the word is not recognised by many
today, but it is not a position held on faith. More precisely it is
the position that knowledge of the existence or non-existence of god
(in the objective sense of the word "knowledge") is not possible. The
problem is not just that "agnostic" has taken on other meanings, but
also words like "knowledge" have multiple meanings; so that, for
example, a theist might say that he knows god exists using a completely
different definition than the one Huxley was working with.
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| User: "cloud dreamer" |
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| Title: Re: Paganization Of The Youth Led By The Depraved Entertainment Industry |
27 Oct 2006 06:51:32 PM |
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Jack Tingle wrote:
On Fri, 27 Oct 2006 08:09:52 -0700, John Schilling
<schillin@spock.usc.edu> wrote:
Including faiths such as atheism, agnosticism, and secular humanism. And
yes, Virginia, for this purpose they *are* faiths. Belief systems which
you are deliberately not teaching to your child, which are clearly better
to what you are teaching your child, but which are not a priori better
than any other belief system. The kid gets to make an unbiased choice.
A minor point: agnosticism is not really a faith. I'm not even sure
it's a belief structure.
There is no positive act of faith required to say "I don't know" (or
even "I don't care" depending on how you look at it). I do agree that
the other two do require acts of faith, though the leap of faith for
secular humanism is more like a _skip_ of faith.
The argument that agnostics are gutless/polite atheists, and thereby
do have a faith, doesn't hold water to me. I have a hard time with any
group of (generously) a few hundred million people (the atheists)
telling 5-ish billion theists they're all wrong. They might be, but
there are 5-ish billion of them. Some of them might be right. Even if
only one is, atheism is wrong. Those are bad odds. I prefer to defer
the decision.
53% of Americans believe in Santa. Does that make them right?
..
MMVIII
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| User: "Midwinter" |
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| Title: Re: Paganization Of The Youth Led By The Depraved Entertainment Industry |
27 Oct 2006 07:29:47 PM |
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cloud dreamer <Invalid@Invalld.com> wrote:
53% of Americans believe in Santa. Does that make them right?
Does your lack of belief in itself make them wrong?
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| User: "John Schilling" |
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| Title: Re: Paganization Of The Youth Led By The Depraved Entertainment Industry |
31 Oct 2006 07:26:21 PM |
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On Fri, 27 Oct 2006 19:29:31 -0400, Jack Tingle <wjtingle@hotmail.com>
wrote:
On Fri, 27 Oct 2006 08:09:52 -0700, John Schilling
<schillin@spock.usc.edu> wrote:
Including faiths such as atheism, agnosticism, and secular humanism. And
yes, Virginia, for this purpose they *are* faiths. Belief systems which
you are deliberately not teaching to your child, which are clearly better
to what you are teaching your child, but which are not a priori better
than any other belief system. The kid gets to make an unbiased choice.
A minor point: agnosticism is not really a faith. I'm not even sure
it's a belief structure.
For the purpose of this discussion, whose context you have seem fit to
entirely excise, it has all the relevant characteristics of a faith and
can be considered a faith.
But if you prefer, "theological worldview".
--
*John Schilling * "Anything worth doing, *
*Member:AIAA,NRA,ACLU,SAS,LP * is worth doing for money" *
*Chief Scientist & General Partner * -13th Rule of Acquisition *
*White Elephant Research, LLC * "There is no substitute *
*schillin@spock.usc.edu * for success" *
*661-951-9107 or 661-275-6795 * -58th Rule of Acquisition *
.
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| User: "smw" |
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| Title: Re: Paganization Of The Youth Led By The Depraved Entertainment Industry |
31 Oct 2006 09:12:30 PM |
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John Schilling wrote:
....>>
A minor point: agnosticism is not really a faith. I'm not even sure
it's a belief structure.
For the purpose of this discussion, whose context you have seem fit to
entirely excise, it has all the relevant characteristics of a faith and
can be considered a faith.
But if you prefer, "theological worldview".
Indeed. I've been telling people who doubt that the world is run by my
cat that they subscribe to a theafelinic wordview, but they won't listen.
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| User: "Nevermore" |
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| Title: Re: Paganization Of The Youth Led By The Depraved EntertainmentIndustry |
01 Nov 2006 07:34:08 AM |
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In <ygU1h.23970$e66.9055@newssvr13.news.prodigy.com> smw wrote:
From: smw <smwei@ameritech.net>
Newsgroups: alt.atheism,alt.religion.wicca,rec.arts.books,rec.arts.sf.
written,rec.arts.tv Subject: Re: Paganization Of The Youth Led By The
Depraved Entertainment Industry Date: Wed, 01 Nov 2006 03:12:30 GMT
Organization: SBC http://yahoo.sbc.com
John Schilling wrote:
....>>
A minor point: agnosticism is not really a faith. I'm not even sure
it's a belief structure.
For the purpose of this discussion, whose context you have seem fit
to entirely excise, it has all the relevant characteristics of a
faith and can be considered a faith. But if you prefer, "theological
worldview".
Indeed. I've been telling people who doubt that the world is run by my
cat that they subscribe to a theafelinic wordview, but they won't
listen.
Har! Is a black cat? There may be something to it...
Nevermore
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| User: "thomas p." |
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| Title: Re: Paganization Of The Youth Led By The Depraved Entertainment Industry |
01 Nov 2006 05:52:29 AM |
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John Schilling wrote:
On Fri, 27 Oct 2006 19:29:31 -0400, Jack Tingle <wjtingle@hotmail.com>
wrote:
On Fri, 27 Oct 2006 08:09:52 -0700, John Schilling
<schillin@spock.usc.edu> wrote:
Including faiths such as atheism, agnosticism, and secular humanism. And
yes, Virginia, for this purpose they *are* faiths. Belief systems which
you are deliberately not teaching to your child, which are clearly better
to what you are teaching your child, but which are not a priori better
than any other belief system. The kid gets to make an unbiased choice.
A minor point: agnosticism is not really a faith. I'm not even sure
it's a belief structure.
For the purpose of this discussion, whose context you have seem fit to
entirely excise, it has all the relevant characteristics of a faith and
can be considered a faith.
It has none of the relevant characteristics of faith.
But if you prefer, "theological worldview".
I would prefer that people give up silly strawmen.
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| User: "John Schilling" |
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| Title: Re: Paganization Of The Youth Led By The Depraved Entertainment Industry |
01 Nov 2006 08:22:31 PM |
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On 1 Nov 2006 03:52:29 -0800, "thomas p." <tonyofbexar@yahoo.dk> wrote:
John Schilling wrote:
On Fri, 27 Oct 2006 19:29:31 -0400, Jack Tingle <wjtingle@hotmail.com>
wrote:
On Fri, 27 Oct 2006 08:09:52 -0700, John Schilling
<schillin@spock.usc.edu> wrote:
Including faiths such as atheism, agnosticism, and secular humanism. And
yes, Virginia, for this purpose they *are* faiths. Belief systems which
you are deliberately not teaching to your child, which are clearly better
to what you are teaching your child, but which are not a priori better
than any other belief system. The kid gets to make an unbiased choice.
A minor point: agnosticism is not really a faith. I'm not even sure
it's a belief structure.
For the purpose of this discussion, whose context you have seem fit to
entirely excise, it has all the relevant characteristics of a faith and
can be considered a faith.
It has none of the relevant characteristics of faith.
Sure it does. Agnosticism is a theological world view, and it is
sometimes taught to children by their parents.
Those are characteristics of a faith, and they are characteristics
of agnosticism. And they are relevant to the hypothetical plan we
were discussing.
They are, AFIK, the *only* relevant characteristics of a faith, *in
that context*.
--
*John Schilling * "Anything worth doing, *
*Member:AIAA,NRA,ACLU,SAS,LP * is worth doing for money" *
*Chief Scientist & General Partner * -13th Rule of Acquisition *
*White Elephant Research, LLC * "There is no substitute *
*schillin@spock.usc.edu * for success" *
*661-951-9107 or 661-275-6795 * -58th Rule of Acquisition *
.
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| User: "thomas p" |
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| Title: Re: Paganization Of The Youth Led By The Depraved Entertainment Industry |
02 Nov 2006 09:30:05 AM |
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On Wed, 01 Nov 2006 18:22:31 -0800, John Schilling
<schillin@spock.usc.edu> wrote:
On 1 Nov 2006 03:52:29 -0800, "thomas p." <tonyofbexar@yahoo.dk> wrote:
John Schilling wrote:
On Fri, 27 Oct 2006 19:29:31 -0400, Jack Tingle <wjtingle@hotmail.com>
wrote:
On Fri, 27 Oct 2006 08:09:52 -0700, John Schilling
<schillin@spock.usc.edu> wrote:
Including faiths such as atheism, agnosticism, and secular humanism. And
yes, Virginia, for this purpose they *are* faiths. Belief systems which
you are deliberately not teaching to your child, which are clearly better
to what you are teaching your child, but which are not a priori better
than any other belief system. The kid gets to make an unbiased choice.
A minor point: agnosticism is not really a faith. I'm not even sure
it's a belief structure.
For the purpose of this discussion, whose context you have seem fit to
entirely excise, it has all the relevant characteristics of a faith and
can be considered a faith.
It has none of the relevant characteristics of faith.
Sure it does. Agnosticism is a theological world view,
Nonsense.
and it is
sometimes taught to children by their parents.
Irrelevant.
Those are characteristics of a faith, and they are characteristics
of agnosticism. And they are relevant to the hypothetical plan we
were discussing.
They are, AFIK, the *only* relevant characteristics of a faith, *in
that context*.
I see; you share Humpty Dumpty's view of the meaning of words. In
that case anything and everything has the relevant characteristics of
faith, and the word becomes useless.
Thomas P.
"Life must be lived forwards but understood backwards"
(Kierkegaard)
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| User: "T Guy" |
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| Title: Re: Paganization Of The Youth Led By The Depraved Entertainment Industry |
25 Oct 2006 06:39:35 AM |
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Midwinter wrote:
I'm actually British, so I live in a dodgy enough country as it is, but at
least it's not a theocracy.
(T Guy):
Me too, and I agree... even though I can see 'D. G. Reg. F. D.' next to
our Head of State's bonce on every coin I use...
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| User: "Howard Brazee" |
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| Title: Re: Paganization Of The Youth Led By The Depraved Entertainment Industry |
24 Oct 2006 05:02:48 PM |
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On Tue, 24 Oct 2006 05:54:15 -0500, Midwinter
<midwinter_m@hotmail.co.uk> wrote:
If they want to be pagan, that's fine too. If they want to be atheist, and
think I'm a fool for believing what I do, then I've no problem with that.
But the moment they adopt a religion, or lack of religion, and then start
trying to force their views on someone else is the moment they risk being
disowned.
I agree with your point of view. While I note that most modern wars
and lots of other modern evils are caused by Righteous people - I also
note that I am Righteous as well - in my demand that other people have
rights to have different values from me.
My wife thinks allowing gays to marry will cheapen marriage. I note
that it won't hurt our marriage, and certainly won't have the effect
divorce had. But love for tradition doesn't go back to previous
generations' tradition. I cherish marriage enough that I don't want
to limit it to only 95% of the people. The only times I am willing
to fight with her is when I argue against what she hears on hate
radio.
On the other hand, for some reason lots and lots of people worship a
being that they believe is omnipotent, but who they believe allows the
vast majority of people to be tortured beyond all understanding
forever and ever without hope of parole - for the crime of being
fooled. With such a belief, they have two choices:
1. Emulate their God and be content with our suffering.
2. Do everything they possibly can to save us.
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| User: "Midwinter" |
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| Title: Re: Paganization Of The Youth Led By The Depraved Entertainment Industry |
24 Oct 2006 07:08:47 PM |
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Howard Brazee <howard@brazee.net> wrote:
On the other hand, for some reason lots and lots of people worship a
being that they believe is omnipotent, but who they believe allows the
vast majority of people to be tortured beyond all understanding
forever and ever without hope of parole - for the crime of being
fooled.
What puzzles me is that while such people attribute infinite power to their
God, they still seem convinced that He needs their help to fight His corner
here on Earth.
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