| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"Iain" |
| Date: |
29 Mar 2005 11:14:51 AM |
| Object: |
Papal Infallability |
Catholics say that the fallacies and wrongdoings of the hierarchy of
the Catholic Church are done without their capacity as Jehovah's
representatives.
But what do they see? People who are sometimes right and sometimes
wrong, people who are sometimes nice and sometimes nasty, etc --Just
like the rest of humanity. So what is it about them that leads
Catholics to believe they are divine?
~Iain
.
|
|
| User: "someone2" |
|
| Title: Re: Papal Infallability |
30 Mar 2005 11:51:44 PM |
|
|
Catholics say that the fallacies and wrongdoings of the hierarchy of
the Catholic Church are done without their capacity as Jehovah's
representatives.
But what do they see? People who are sometimes right and sometimes
wrong, people who are sometimes nice and sometimes nasty, etc --Just
like the rest of humanity. So what is it about them that leads
Catholics to believe they are divine?
Where in the bible did the concept of papal infalibility come from?
The average Catholic just believes, they have faith, they don't
question, questioning would be argueably a lack of faith. That is not
to say that Catholics don't possess the spirit of the religion. It is
just to say that they possess it inspite of their leaders, not because
of them.
Whatever happens to the Catholic leadership, it doesn't reflect on the
faithful.
If that makes sense. It does to me.
.
|
|
|
|
| User: "wcb" |
|
| Title: Re: Papal Infallability |
29 Mar 2005 11:53:49 AM |
|
|
Iain wrote:
Catholics say that the fallacies and wrongdoings of the hierarchy of
the Catholic Church are done without their capacity as Jehovah's
representatives.
But what do they see? People who are sometimes right and sometimes
wrong, people who are sometimes nice and sometimes nasty, etc --Just
like the rest of humanity. So what is it about them that leads
Catholics to believe they are divine?
Do recall that the poop has been officialy 'infallible'
since 1870.
--
When I shake my killfile, I can hear them buzzing!
Cheerful Charlie
.
|
|
|
| User: "duke" |
|
| Title: Re: Papal Infallability |
30 Mar 2005 11:32:02 AM |
|
|
On Tue, 29 Mar 2005 05:53:49 -0600, wcb <wbarwell@mylinuxisp.com> wrote:
Iain wrote:
Catholics say that the fallacies and wrongdoings of the hierarchy of
the Catholic Church are done without their capacity as Jehovah's
representatives.
But what do they see? People who are sometimes right and sometimes
wrong, people who are sometimes nice and sometimes nasty, etc --Just
like the rest of humanity. So what is it about them that leads
Catholics to believe they are divine?
Do recall that the poop has been officialy 'infallible'
since 1870.
Correction: 33AD.
duke
*****
"The Mass is the most perfect form of Prayer."
Pope Paul VI
*****
.
|
|
|
| User: "Mike Painter" |
|
| Title: Re: Papal Infallability |
31 Mar 2005 01:11:14 AM |
|
|
duke wrote:
On Tue, 29 Mar 2005 05:53:49 -0600, wcb <wbarwell@mylinuxisp.com>
wrote:
Iain wrote:
Catholics say that the fallacies and wrongdoings of the hierarchy of
the Catholic Church are done without their capacity as Jehovah's
representatives.
But what do they see? People who are sometimes right and sometimes
wrong, people who are sometimes nice and sometimes nasty, etc --Just
like the rest of humanity. So what is it about them that leads
Catholics to believe they are divine?
Do recall that the poop has been officialy 'infallible'
since 1870.
Correction: 33AD.
Earl has been given the refernces showing this to be false before.
.
|
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "Iain" |
|
| Title: Re: Papal Infallability |
29 Mar 2005 11:25:06 AM |
|
|
Iain wrote:
Catholics say that the fallacies and wrongdoings of the hierarchy of
the Catholic Church are done without their capacity as Jehovah's
representatives.
But what do they see? People who are sometimes right and sometimes
wrong, people who are sometimes nice and sometimes nasty, etc --Just
like the rest of humanity. So what is it about them that leads
Catholics to believe they are divine?
Moreover, even if a priest were to perform a miracle, it would at best
be a mytery.
~Iain
.
|
|
|
|
| User: "Jos Flachs" |
|
| Title: Re: Papal Infallability |
29 Mar 2005 12:23:23 PM |
|
|
On 29 Mar 2005 03:14:51 -0800, "Iain" <iain_inkster@hotmail.com>
wrote:
Catholics say that the fallacies and wrongdoings of the hierarchy of
the Catholic Church are done without their capacity as Jehovah's
representatives.
But what do they see? People who are sometimes right and sometimes
wrong, people who are sometimes nice and sometimes nasty, etc --Just
like the rest of humanity. So what is it about them that leads
Catholics to believe they are divine?
Can we agree that this has very little to do with papal infallibility?
.
|
|
|
| User: "Iain" |
|
| Title: Re: Papal Infallability |
29 Mar 2005 02:06:02 PM |
|
|
Jos Flachs wrote:
On 29 Mar 2005 03:14:51 -0800, "Iain" <iain_inkster@hotmail.com>
wrote:
Catholics say that the fallacies and wrongdoings of the hierarchy of
the Catholic Church are done without their capacity as Jehovah's
representatives.
But what do they see? People who are sometimes right and sometimes
wrong, people who are sometimes nice and sometimes nasty, etc --Just
like the rest of humanity. So what is it about them that leads
Catholics to believe they are divine?
Can we agree that this has very little to do with papal
infallibility?
Not really for divinity and papal infallability do, or did, go
hand-in-hand, and was only denied in the past for the reasons above --
but what is left of popehood if the pope is fallable? The pope is still
considered infallable when acting in his capacity as a representative.
The goalposts have changed though because we don't always know when
that is.
~Iain
~Iain
.
|
|
|
| User: "Jos Flachs" |
|
| Title: Re: Re: Papal Infallability |
30 Mar 2005 12:26:19 AM |
|
|
On 29 Mar 2005 06:06:02 -0800, "Iain" <iain_inkster@hotmail.com>
wrote:
Jos Flachs wrote:
On 29 Mar 2005 03:14:51 -0800, "Iain" <iain_inkster@hotmail.com>
wrote:
Catholics say that the fallacies and wrongdoings of the hierarchy of
the Catholic Church are done without their capacity as Jehovah's
representatives.
But what do they see? People who are sometimes right and sometimes
wrong, people who are sometimes nice and sometimes nasty, etc --Just
like the rest of humanity. So what is it about them that leads
Catholics to believe they are divine?
Can we agree that this has very little to do with papal
infallibility?
Not really for divinity and papal infallability do, or did, go
hand-in-hand, and was only denied in the past for the reasons above --
but what is left of popehood if the pope is fallable? The pope is still
considered infallable when acting in his capacity as a representative.
The goalposts have changed though because we don't always know when
that is.
Papal infallability is 130 years old. They were doing alright before
1870, and after that? Then they went all to hell on an express train
:-)
.
|
|
|
| User: "Mike Painter" |
|
| Title: Re: Re: Papal Infallability |
30 Mar 2005 01:41:45 AM |
|
|
Jos Flachs" <"wcruise wrote:
Can we agree that this has very little to do with papal
infallibility?
Not really for divinity and papal infallability do, or did, go
hand-in-hand, and was only denied in the past for the reasons above
-- but what is left of popehood if the pope is fallable? The pope is
still considered infallable when acting in his capacity as a
representative. The goalposts have changed though because we don't
always know when that is.
Papal infallability is 130 years old. They were doing alright before
1870, and after that? Then they went all to hell on an express train
:-)
There was only a group that was infalliable before 1871.
The Magisterium still is:
"§2 The College of Bishops also possesses infallibility in its teaching when
the Bishops, gathered together in an Ecumenical Council and exercising their
Magisterium as teachers and judges of faith and morals, definitively declare
for the universal Church a doctrine to be held concerning faith or morals;
likewise, when the Bishops, dispersed throughout the world but maintaining
the bond of union among themselves and with the successor of Peter, together
with the same Roman Pontiff authentically teach matters of faith or morals,
and are agreed that a particular teaching is definitively to be held. "
http://www.ourcatholicfaith.org/canonlaw/CANON747-755.html
.
|
|
|
| User: "Iain" |
|
| Title: Re: Papal Infallability |
30 Mar 2005 09:55:44 AM |
|
|
Mike Painter wrote:
Jos Flachs" <"wcruise wrote:
Can we agree that this has very little to do with papal
infallibility?
Not really for divinity and papal infallability do, or did, go
hand-in-hand, and was only denied in the past for the reasons
above
-- but what is left of popehood if the pope is fallable? The pope
is
still considered infallable when acting in his capacity as a
representative. The goalposts have changed though because we don't
always know when that is.
Papal infallability is 130 years old. They were doing alright
before
1870, and after that? Then they went all to hell on an express
train
:-)
There was only a group that was infalliable before 1871.
The Magisterium still is:
"=A72 The College of Bishops also possesses infallibility in its
teaching when
the Bishops, gathered together in an Ecumenical Council and
exercising their
Magisterium as teachers and judges of faith and morals, definitively
declare
for the universal Church a doctrine to be held concerning faith or
morals;
likewise, when the Bishops, dispersed throughout the world but
maintaining
the bond of union among themselves and with the successor of Peter,
together
with the same Roman Pontiff authentically teach matters of faith or
morals,
and are agreed that a particular teaching is definitively to be held.
"
So why has its teaching altered during that time?
~Iain
.
|
|
|
| User: "Mike Painter" |
|
| Title: Re: Papal Infallability |
31 Mar 2005 01:09:13 AM |
|
|
Iain wrote:
Mike Painter wrote:
So why has its teaching altered during that time?
I know little about the history of that time but understand that the Pope
had more power over Italy and the world prior to that time and lost much of
it because of modern thinking and what was essentially another inquisition
in the country.
Vatican I may have been in response to that.
.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "duke" |
|
| Title: Re: Papal Infallability |
30 Mar 2005 11:31:33 AM |
|
|
On 29 Mar 2005 03:14:51 -0800, "Iain" <iain_inkster@hotmail.com> wrote:
Catholics say that the fallacies and wrongdoings of the hierarchy of
the Catholic Church are done without their capacity as Jehovah's
representatives.
Wow, when did this new idea come up?
But what do they see? People who are sometimes right and sometimes
wrong, people who are sometimes nice and sometimes nasty, etc --Just
like the rest of humanity. So what is it about them that leads
Catholics to believe they are divine?
Only Christ is divine. What are you getting at?
duke
*****
"The Mass is the most perfect form of Prayer."
Pope Paul VI
*****
.
|
|
|
| User: "Iain" |
|
| Title: Re: Papal Infallability |
30 Mar 2005 12:44:09 PM |
|
|
duke wrote:
On 29 Mar 2005 03:14:51 -0800, "Iain" <iain_inkster@hotmail.com>
wrote:
Catholics say that the fallacies and wrongdoings of the hierarchy of
the Catholic Church are done without their capacity as Jehovah's
representatives.
Wow, when did this new idea come up?
"The Roman Pontiff, head of the college of bishops, enjoys this
infallibility in virtue of his office, when, as supreme pastor and
teacher of all the faithful -- who confirms his brethren in the faith
-- he proclaims by a definitive act a doctrine pertaining to faith or
morals" (Catechism of the Catholic Church (Liguori, MO: Liguori
Publications), 1994, p.235).
"We believe in the infallibility enjoyed by the Successor of Peter when
he speaks ex cathedra as shepherd and teacher of all the faithful, an
infallibility which the whole Episcopate also enjoys when it exercises
with him the supreme magisterium" (Vol. 2, p.392).
It's not new at all.
~Iain
.
|
|
|
| User: "duke" |
|
| Title: Re: Papal Infallability |
30 Mar 2005 11:36:23 PM |
|
|
On 30 Mar 2005 04:44:09 -0800, "Iain" <iain_inkster@hotmail.com> wrote:
Catholics say that the fallacies and wrongdoings of the hierarchy of
the Catholic Church are done without their capacity as Jehovah's
representatives.
Wow, when did this new idea come up?
"The Roman Pontiff, head of the college of bishops, enjoys this
infallibility in virtue of his office, when, as supreme pastor and
teacher of all the faithful -- who confirms his brethren in the faith
-- he proclaims by a definitive act a doctrine pertaining to faith or
morals" (Catechism of the Catholic Church (Liguori, MO: Liguori
Publications), 1994, p.235).
Yep, so far that's exactly right. Next comment.
"We believe in the infallibility enjoyed by the Successor of Peter when
he speaks ex cathedra as shepherd and teacher of all the faithful, an
infallibility which the whole Episcopate also enjoys when it exercises
with him the supreme magisterium" (Vol. 2, p.392).
It's not new at all.
Yep, exactly right again.
Where is the part about fallacies and wrongdoings of the hierarchy done without
their capacity as Jehovah's representatives.
What exactly are you getting at. I see a leak in your words, but do you?
duke
*****
"The Mass is the most perfect form of Prayer."
Pope Paul VI
*****
.
|
|
|
| User: "Iain" |
|
| Title: Re: Papal Infallability |
01 Apr 2005 09:04:28 AM |
|
|
duke wrote:
On 30 Mar 2005 04:44:09 -0800, "Iain" <iain_inkster@hotmail.com>
wrote:
Catholics say that the fallacies and wrongdoings of the hierarchy
of
the Catholic Church are done without their capacity as Jehovah's
representatives.
Wow, when did this new idea come up?
"The Roman Pontiff, head of the college of bishops, enjoys this
infallibility in virtue of his office, when, as supreme pastor and
teacher of all the faithful -- who confirms his brethren in the
faith
-- he proclaims by a definitive act a doctrine pertaining to faith
or
morals" (Catechism of the Catholic Church (Liguori, MO: Liguori
Publications), 1994, p.235).
Yep, so far that's exactly right. Next comment.
"We believe in the infallibility enjoyed by the Successor of Peter
when
he speaks ex cathedra as shepherd and teacher of all the faithful,
an
infallibility which the whole Episcopate also enjoys when it
exercises
with him the supreme magisterium" (Vol. 2, p.392).
It's not new at all.
Yep, exactly right again.
Where is the part about fallacies and wrongdoings of the hierarchy
done without
their capacity as Jehovah's representatives.
What exactly are you getting at. I see a leak in your words, but do
you?
The Catholic church has admitted to fallacies and wrongdoings of its
individual clergy and even the pope.
The above quotes say that none of this can occur during during ex
cathedra.
~Iain
.
|
|
|
| User: "Mike Painter" |
|
| Title: Re: Papal Infallability |
02 Apr 2005 12:33:57 AM |
|
|
Iain wrote:
The Catholic church has admitted to fallacies and wrongdoings of its
individual clergy and even the pope.
The above quotes say that none of this can occur during during ex
cathedra.
That's what they claim. If you look at what they actually have said when
they are in the infallible mode you will see that it deals with old
religious ideas like the assumption of Mary into heaven, etc.
They will not make statements that may come back and bite them in the rear
of their robes.
You will *never* see birth control, married priests, divorce, or eating meat
on Friday mentioned.
.
|
|
|
|
| User: "duke" |
|
| Title: Re: Papal Infallability |
01 Apr 2005 06:16:56 PM |
|
|
On 1 Apr 2005 01:04:28 -0800, "Iain" <iain_inkster@hotmail.com> wrote:
Yep, so far that's exactly right. Next comment.
Yep, exactly right again.
Where is the part about fallacies and wrongdoings of the hierarchy
done without their capacity as Jehovah's representatives.
What exactly are you getting at. I see a leak in your words, but do
you?
The Catholic church has admitted to fallacies and wrongdoings of its
individual clergy and even the pope.
But of course - for they are all men. Beside, only Christ never sinned. Heb
4:15.
The above quotes say that none of this can occur during during ex
cathedra.
Again, of course.
But I think you're leaking on yourself rather than anything else. It's clear
you have no idea what you're talking about. So I just thought I'd inform you.
duke
*****
"The Mass is the most perfect form of Prayer."
Pope Paul VI
*****
.
|
|
|
| User: "Iain" |
|
| Title: Re: Papal Infallability |
02 Apr 2005 11:11:55 AM |
|
|
duke wrote:
On 1 Apr 2005 01:04:28 -0800, "Iain" <iain_inkster@hotmail.com>
wrote:
Yep, so far that's exactly right. Next comment.
Yep, exactly right again.
Where is the part about fallacies and wrongdoings of the hierarchy
done without their capacity as Jehovah's representatives.
What exactly are you getting at. I see a leak in your words, but
do
you?
The Catholic church has admitted to fallacies and wrongdoings of its
individual clergy and even the pope.
But of course - for they are all men. Beside, only Christ never
sinned. Heb
4:15.
The above quotes say that none of this can occur during during ex
cathedra.
Again, of course.
But I think you're leaking on yourself rather than anything else.
It's clear
you have no idea what you're talking about. So I just thought I'd
inform you.
Yes I do! If the Pope is infallable during ex cathedra(as the above
quote says) and in his life commits fallacies(as he himself would admit
if he could speak), his mistakes must be without his capacity as God's
representative(whence else might garaunteed infallability come if not
from the heavens?).
Also, why, during ex cathedra speaks he never of anything
falsifiable(if it were incorrect)?
~Iain
.
|
|
|
| User: "Mike Painter" |
|
| Title: Re: Papal Infallability |
02 Apr 2005 06:22:33 PM |
|
|
Iain wrote:
duke wrote:
On 1 Apr 2005 01:04:28 -0800, "Iain" <iain_inkster@hotmail.com>
wrote:
Yep, so far that's exactly right. Next comment.
Yep, exactly right again.
Where is the part about fallacies and wrongdoings of the hierarchy
done without their capacity as Jehovah's representatives.
What exactly are you getting at. I see a leak in your words, but
do you?
The Catholic church has admitted to fallacies and wrongdoings of its
individual clergy and even the pope.
But of course - for they are all men. Beside, only Christ never
sinned. Heb 4:15.
Earl again demonstrates his ignorance of what the RCC teaches.
.
|
|
|
| User: "Iain" |
|
| Title: Re: Papal Infallability |
02 Apr 2005 11:15:22 PM |
|
|
Mike Painter wrote:
Iain wrote:
duke wrote:
On 1 Apr 2005 01:04:28 -0800, "Iain" <iain_inkster@hotmail.com>
wrote:
Yep, so far that's exactly right. Next comment.
Yep, exactly right again.
Where is the part about fallacies and wrongdoings of the
hierarchy
done without their capacity as Jehovah's representatives.
What exactly are you getting at. I see a leak in your words,
but
do you?
The Catholic church has admitted to fallacies and wrongdoings of
its
individual clergy and even the pope.
But of course - for they are all men. Beside, only Christ never
sinned. Heb 4:15.
Earl again demonstrates his ignorance of what the RCC teaches.
I just heard on the news that the infallable one just fell.
~Iain
.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
| User: "D. Stephen Heersink" |
|
| Title: Re: Papal Infallability |
30 Mar 2005 02:35:56 PM |
|
|
The notion of papal infallibility arose for the FIRST time in the 19th
century; a genuine novation and innovation of anything from the
development of christian doctrine from the beginning. The Petrine See
has always been one of "primacy," but never "supremacy," which the
First Vatican Council innovated. It's pure poppycock by its own
standards, and nonsense to those outside it.
On 30 Mar 2005 04:44:09 -0800, "Iain" <iain_inkster@hotmail.com>
wrote:
duke wrote:
On 29 Mar 2005 03:14:51 -0800, "Iain" <iain_inkster@hotmail.com>
wrote:
Catholics say that the fallacies and wrongdoings of the hierarchy of
the Catholic Church are done without their capacity as Jehovah's
representatives.
Wow, when did this new idea come up?
"The Roman Pontiff, head of the college of bishops, enjoys this
infallibility in virtue of his office, when, as supreme pastor and
teacher of all the faithful -- who confirms his brethren in the faith
-- he proclaims by a definitive act a doctrine pertaining to faith or
morals" (Catechism of the Catholic Church (Liguori, MO: Liguori
Publications), 1994, p.235).
"We believe in the infallibility enjoyed by the Successor of Peter when
he speaks ex cathedra as shepherd and teacher of all the faithful, an
infallibility which the whole Episcopate also enjoys when it exercises
with him the supreme magisterium" (Vol. 2, p.392).
It's not new at all.
~Iain
___________________
D. Stephen Heersink
San Francisco
.
|
|
|
| User: "duke" |
|
| Title: Re: Papal Infallability |
30 Mar 2005 11:39:20 PM |
|
|
On Wed, 30 Mar 2005 14:35:56 GMT, (D. Stephen Heersink)
wrote:
The notion of papal infallibility arose for the FIRST time in the 19th
century; a genuine novation and innovation of anything from the
development of christian doctrine from the beginning. The Petrine See
has always been one of "primacy," but never "supremacy," which the
First Vatican Council innovated. It's pure poppycock by its own
standards, and nonsense to those outside it.
Then again, it comes from Christ, is rock solid, and no body cares what an
atheist thinks. You're getting ready to have major problem of your own to tend
to.
duke
*****
"The Mass is the most perfect form of Prayer."
Pope Paul VI
*****
.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
Related Articles |
|
|
