Pat Buchanan: Darwin's Pyrrhic victory



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Topic: Religions > Atheism
User: "Jason Spaceman"
Date: 28 Dec 2005 06:13:33 AM
Object: Pat Buchanan: Darwin's Pyrrhic victory
From the article:
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Posted: December 28, 2005
1:00 a.m. Eastern
Đ 2005 Creators Syndicate Inc.
"Intelligent Design Derailed," exulted the headline.
"By now, the Christian conservatives who once dominated the school
board in Dover, Pa., ought to rue their recklessness in forcing
biology classes to hear about 'intelligent design' as an alternative
to the theory of evolution," declared the New York Times, which added
its own caning to the Christians who dared challenge the revealed
truths of Darwinian scripture.
Noting that U.S. District Judge John E. Jones III is a Bush appointee,
the Washington Post called his decision "a scathing opinion that
criticized local school board members for lying under oath and for
their 'breathtaking inanity' in trying to inject religion into science
classes."
But is it really game, set, match, Darwin?
Have these fellows forgotten that John Scopes, the teacher in that
1925 "Monkey Trial," lost in court, and was convicted of violating
Tennessee law against the teaching of evolution and fined $100? Yet
Darwin went on to conquer public education, and American Civil
Liberties Union atheists went on to purge Christianity and the Bible
from our public schools.
The Dover defeat notwithstanding, the pendulum is clearly swinging
back. Darwinism is on the defensive. For, as Tom Bethell, author of
"The Politically Incorrect Guide to Science," reminds us, there is no
better way to make kids curious about "intelligent design" than to
have some Neanderthal forbid its being mentioned in biology class.
In ideological politics, winning by losing is textbook stuff. The
Goldwater defeat of 1964, which a triumphant left said would bury the
right forever, turned out to be liberalism's last hurrah. Like Marxism
and Freudianism, Darwinism appears destined for the graveyard of
discredited ideas, no matter the breathtaking inanity of the trial
judge. In his opinion, Judge Jones the Third declared:
The overwhelming evidence is that [intelligent design] is a
religious
view, a mere re-labeling of creationism and not a scientific
theory ... It is an extension of the fundamentalists' view
that one must either accept the literal interpretation of
Genesis or else believe in the godless
system of evolution.
But if intelligent design is creationism or fundamentalism in drag,
how does Judge Jones explain how that greatest of ancient thinkers,
Aristotle, who died 300 years before Christ, concluded that the
physical universe points directly to an unmoved First Mover?
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Read it at
http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=48102
J. Spaceman
.

User: ""

Title: Re: Pat Buchanan: Darwin's Pyrrhic victory 01 Jan 2006 09:04:36 AM
"Darwinism" isnīt inconsistent with a 'prime mover'.
.
User: "Christopher A. Lee"

Title: Re: Pat Buchanan: Darwin's Pyrrhic victory 01 Jan 2006 09:19:00 AM
On 1 Jan 2006 07:04:36 -0800,
wrote:

"Darwinism" isnīt inconsistent with a 'prime mover'.

It has nothing to say about one.
However those who invoke a prime mover have to demonstrate one before
they do that.
.
User: "Robert J. Kolker"

Title: Re: Pat Buchanan: Darwin's Pyrrhic victory 01 Jan 2006 10:30:21 AM
Christopher A. Lee wrote:

On 1 Jan 2006 07:04:36 -0800,

wrote:


"Darwinism" isnīt inconsistent with a 'prime mover'.



It has nothing to say about one.

However those who invoke a prime mover have to demonstrate one before
they do that.

The existence of a Prime Mover is a hypothesis. The alternatives are
infinite regress and circularity.
In modern cosmology, the Big Bang is the Prime Mover. Unlike Aristotle's
Prime Mover, Big Bang existed but for an instant. Prior to Big Bang
hypothesis, the Steady State Model of the Cosmos had some currency and
was discarded only after Penzias and Wilson found the cosmic background
radiation (inadervantly) in 1965. That put a nail in the coffin of the
Steady State theory.
Bob Kolker
.
User: "Christopher A. Lee"

Title: Re: Pat Buchanan: Darwin's Pyrrhic victory 01 Jan 2006 10:41:31 AM
On Sun, 01 Jan 2006 11:30:21 -0500, "Robert J. Kolker"
<nowhere@nowhere.com> wrote:

Christopher A. Lee wrote:

On 1 Jan 2006 07:04:36 -0800,

wrote:


"Darwinism" isnīt inconsistent with a 'prime mover'.



It has nothing to say about one.

However those who invoke a prime mover have to demonstrate one before
they do that.


The existence of a Prime Mover is a hypothesis. The alternatives are
infinite regress and circularity.

And it can't be invoked as explanation for anything. But it's not even
a hypothesis because there is nothing that leads one to arrive thyere.
It's a religious premise that has no justification in the real world
outside the religion.

In modern cosmology, the Big Bang is the Prime Mover. Unlike Aristotle's
Prime Mover, Big Bang existed but for an instant. Prior to Big Bang
hypothesis, the Steady State Model of the Cosmos had some currency and
was discarded only after Penzias and Wilson found the cosmic background
radiation (inadervantly) in 1965. That put a nail in the coffin of the
Steady State theory.

The big bang is a conclusion from observation and investigation.
That's the difference.


Bob Kolker

.
User: "Robert J. Kolker"

Title: Re: Pat Buchanan: Darwin's Pyrrhic victory 01 Jan 2006 12:49:42 PM
Christopher A. Lee wrote:



The big bang is a conclusion from observation and investigation.
That's the difference.

No. It is a hypothesis, and there is nothing self evident about it. It
is an example of what C.S.Peirce called abductive thinking. Abduction is
hypothesizing the most likely cause or explanation for the observed
phenomena. Example: If you wake up in the morning and see your street
wet, it is reasonable to suppose that it was raining while you were
asleep. It is also -posssible- that a movie company filmed a nighttime
rain scene on your street. The rain while you were sleeping hypothesis
is the more plausible, so that is what one would guess.
Given the red shift of light from distant galaxies it is reasonable to
suppose that they are moving away from us (or each is moving away from
the other). A perfectly reasonable supposition is to suppose that in
times past galaxies were much closer to each other than they are now.
What gives the Big Bang credibility is its derivablility from the
gravitational field equations of the General Theory of Relativity.
But the Big Bang hypothesis has not provided an explanation to the
seeming acceleration of space expanding. Why shoud it be getting faster?
Good question. We await some answers or guesses.
Keep in mind that science is based on two things:
Guesses that are consistent with the facts and careful measurements and
experiments to test hypotheses (guesses). There are no self evident
synthetic principles from which would could -deduce- reality. We need to
put in the guesses first, then deduce the consequences of our guesses
then test the consequences of our guesses.
Bob Kolker
.
User: "wbarwell"

Title: Re: Pat Buchanan: Darwin's Pyrrhic victory 01 Jan 2006 08:30:42 PM
Robert J. Kolker wrote:

Christopher A. Lee wrote:



The big bang is a conclusion from observation and investigation.
That's the difference.


No. It is a hypothesis, and there is nothing self evident about it.

When Hubble noticed that most of the Universe showed redshifts, that the
Universe was obviously expanding, that was not a hypothesis, but a brute
fact of observation.
Steady state Universe theories cannot expplain this.
Another brute fact.
Its mover from hypothesis long, long ago, to proven theory.

It
is an example of what C.S.Peirce called abductive thinking. Abduction is
hypothesizing the most likely cause or explanation for the observed
phenomena. Example: If you wake up in the morning and see your street
wet, it is reasonable to suppose that it was raining while you were
asleep. It is also -posssible- that a movie company filmed a nighttime
rain scene on your street. The rain while you were sleeping hypothesis
is the more plausible, so that is what one would guess.

Given the red shift of light from distant galaxies it is reasonable to
suppose that they are moving away from us (or each is moving away from
the other). A perfectly reasonable supposition is to suppose that in
times past galaxies were much closer to each other than they are now.
What gives the Big Bang credibility is its derivablility from the
gravitational field equations of the General Theory of Relativity.

But the Big Bang hypothesis has not provided an explanation to the
seeming acceleration of space expanding. Why shoud it be getting faster?
Good question. We await some answers or guesses.

Keep in mind that science is based on two things:

Guesses that are consistent with the facts and careful measurements and
experiments to test hypotheses (guesses). There are no self evident
synthetic principles from which would could -deduce- reality. We need to
put in the guesses first, then deduce the consequences of our guesses
then test the consequences of our guesses.

Bob Kolker

--
Happy Hogmanay!
Cheerful Charlie
.
User: "David Ewan Kahana"

Title: Re: Pat Buchanan: Darwin's Pyrrhic victory 02 Jan 2006 06:33:20 AM
wbarwell wrote:

Robert J. Kolker wrote:

Christopher A. Lee wrote:



The big bang is a conclusion from observation and investigation.
That's the difference.


No. It is a hypothesis, and there is nothing self evident about it.


When Hubble noticed that most of the Universe showed redshifts, that the
Universe was obviously expanding, that was not a hypothesis, but a brute
fact of observation.

Steady state Universe theories cannot expplain this.
Another brute fact.

Hoyle's steady state universe did explain the redshifts.
Static cosmologies can't explain the expansion, but
steady state theories can.
For quite some time steady state cosmology was a
viable alternative to the big bang model.

Its mover from hypothesis long, long ago, to proven theory.

The discovery of the cosmic microwave background in
the 1960's and subsequent refinements of the discovery
made Hoyle's steady state model very hard to maintain.
The facts that the big bang had predicted this radiation
very naturally, while the steady state theories had not, and
thus were required to find some way of creating the
radiation after it had already been discovered combined to
make the big bang by far the most favoured model.
The original big bang model has been `proven' in the
sense of having been solidly tested in a variety of ways.
It's fair to say that it's a theory and not a direct conclusion
from observations.
For example: in principle someone could still try to
come up with another interpretation of the cosmological
redshifts besides universal expansion ... though all
detailed attempts at actually doing that have failed in
one way or another.






It
is an example of what C.S.Peirce called abductive thinking. Abduction is
hypothesizing the most likely cause or explanation for the observed
phenomena. Example: If you wake up in the morning and see your street
wet, it is reasonable to suppose that it was raining while you were
asleep. It is also -posssible- that a movie company filmed a nighttime
rain scene on your street. The rain while you were sleeping hypothesis
is the more plausible, so that is what one would guess.

Given the red shift of light from distant galaxies it is reasonable to
suppose that they are moving away from us (or each is moving away from
the other). A perfectly reasonable supposition is to suppose that in
times past galaxies were much closer to each other than they are now.
What gives the Big Bang credibility is its derivablility from the
gravitational field equations of the General Theory of Relativity.

Actually the key point that gave the big bang credibility was the
detection of the cosmic microwave background radiation, which
was a prediction of the model, as well as its successful explanation
of the abundances of light elements.
To have predicted the background radiation in advance of its discovery
was regarded, naturally, as quite a success for the theory.

But the Big Bang hypothesis has not provided an explanation to the
seeming acceleration of space expanding. Why shoud it be getting faster?
Good question. We await some answers or guesses.

There are quite a few guesses around ... eg quintessence and other
forms of dark energy. But it is a good question.
Cheers!
David
.
User: "wbarwell"

Title: Re: Pat Buchanan: Darwin's Pyrrhic victory 02 Jan 2006 06:15:01 PM
David Ewan Kahana wrote:

wbarwell wrote:

Robert J. Kolker wrote:

Christopher A. Lee wrote:



The big bang is a conclusion from
observation and investigation. That's the
difference.


No. It is a hypothesis, and there is nothing
self evident about it.


When Hubble noticed that most of the Universe
showed redshifts, that the Universe was
obviously expanding, that was not a hypothesis,
but a brute fact of observation.

Steady state Universe theories cannot expplain
this. Another brute fact.


Hoyle's steady state universe did explain the
redshifts.

Static cosmologies can't explain the expansion,
but steady state theories can.

For quite some time steady state cosmology was a
viable alternative to the big bang model.

Its mover from hypothesis long, long ago, to
proven theory.


The discovery of the cosmic microwave background
in the 1960's and subsequent refinements of the
discovery made Hoyle's steady state model very
hard to maintain.

The facts that the big bang had predicted this
radiation very naturally, while the steady state
theories had not, and thus were required to find
some way of creating the radiation after it had
already been discovered combined to make the big
bang by far the most favoured model.

The original big bang model has been `proven' in
the sense of having been solidly tested in a
variety of ways.

It's fair to say that it's a theory and not a
direct conclusion from observations.

For example: in principle someone could still
try to come up with another interpretation of
the cosmological redshifts besides universal
expansion ... though all detailed attempts at
actually doing that have failed in one way or
another.

Hypothesis roughly means a theory that has not
been tested enough to judge its usefulness
nor correctness. Theories may be proven,
partially proven or disproven.
The Big bang as we know it is proven.
Sub-theories, inflation are being proven and that
always makes it very hard to imagine a theory
being overthrown.
Some theories, like quantum mechanics are superb
except when it comes to gravity. Partially
proven.
Some theories, like Lamarkism, or phlogiston are
disproven.
The fact is, the Big Bang is about as well proven
a theory as one can get.
--
Happy Hogmanay!
Cheerful Charlie
.
User: "Robert J. Kolker"

Title: Re: Pat Buchanan: Darwin's Pyrrhic victory 02 Jan 2006 07:50:11 PM
wbarwell wrote:


The Big bang as we know it is proven.

Scientific theories are never proven. When they are tested rigorously
they sometimes are not falsified, but this is not the same thing is
proving them. The onlything that can be definitely show is that a
scientific theory is false.
The best that can be said of the Big Bang theory is that it (so-far)
accounts for the known relevent facts.
Bob Kolker
.
User: "explainer"

Title: Re: Pat Buchanan: Darwin's Pyrrhic victory 02 Jan 2006 08:38:38 PM
Thanks to you both. Your difference of opinion regarding the
"provenness" of BBT is, for me, a nice light on the uncertainty of
scientific language.
Could it be that a significant cause of conflict regarding creationism
and ID is certainty where uncertainty may be the better position?
I'm not sure this is a question worth answering.
All the best, Gordon Hill
.
User: "Earle Jones"

Title: Re: Pat Buchanan: Darwin's Pyrrhic victory 02 Jan 2006 11:08:08 PM
In article <1136255918.142044.106330@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
"explainer" <gordon@explainer.com> wrote:

Thanks to you both. Your difference of opinion regarding the
"provenness" of BBT is, for me, a nice light on the uncertainty of
scientific language.

Could it be that a significant cause of conflict regarding creationism
and ID is certainty where uncertainty may be the better position?

I'm not sure this is a question worth answering.

All the best, Gordon Hill

*
Gordon:
"Pious Jews have a category of questions that can harmlessly be
allowed to go without an answer until the Messiah comes. I suspect that
this is one of them."
--Joseph C. Fineman
earle
*
.
User: "explainer"

Title: Re: Pat Buchanan: Darwin's Pyrrhic victory 06 Jan 2006 04:00:38 PM
Apropos
Thanks, GH
.




User: "David Ewan Kahana"

Title: Re: Pat Buchanan: Darwin's Pyrrhic victory 03 Jan 2006 01:34:45 AM
wbarwell wrote:

David Ewan Kahana wrote:

wbarwell wrote:

Robert J. Kolker wrote:

Christopher A. Lee wrote:



The big bang is a conclusion from
observation and investigation. That's the
difference.


No. It is a hypothesis, and there is nothing
self evident about it.


When Hubble noticed that most of the Universe
showed redshifts, that the Universe was
obviously expanding, that was not a hypothesis,
but a brute fact of observation.

Steady state Universe theories cannot expplain
this. Another brute fact.


Hoyle's steady state universe did explain the
redshifts.

Static cosmologies can't explain the expansion,
but steady state theories can.

For quite some time steady state cosmology was a
viable alternative to the big bang model.

Its mover from hypothesis long, long ago, to
proven theory.


The discovery of the cosmic microwave background
in the 1960's and subsequent refinements of the
discovery made Hoyle's steady state model very
hard to maintain.

The facts that the big bang had predicted this
radiation very naturally, while the steady state
theories had not, and thus were required to find
some way of creating the radiation after it had
already been discovered combined to make the big
bang by far the most favoured model.

The original big bang model has been `proven' in
the sense of having been solidly tested in a
variety of ways.

It's fair to say that it's a theory and not a
direct conclusion from observations.

For example: in principle someone could still
try to come up with another interpretation of
the cosmological redshifts besides universal
expansion ... though all detailed attempts at
actually doing that have failed in one way or
another.



Hypothesis roughly means a theory that has not
been tested enough to judge its usefulness
nor correctness. Theories may be proven,
partially proven or disproven.

Thanks for your attempt at clarification.
But I think you will find, with just a little investigation
of the way in which scientists actually speak, that
usage is far from uniform in these matters.
It's simply a fact of life that these words have meanings
that vary from scientist to scientist, as well as from
context to context, and that the meanings also vary over
time.
Personally I'm much less concerned with drawing
supposedly proper and uniform semantic distinctions
in the use of terms such as theory and hypothesis, and
much more concerned with accurately understanding
the ideas referred to by use of such terms, because in
the end, that's what's important in deciding whether the
ideas are consistent with observation or not.
You made two counterfactual statements regarding the big
bang theory / hypothesis. The first was a compound
proposition:

When Hubble noticed that most of the Universe
showed redshifts, that the Universe was
obviously expanding, that was not a hypothesis,
but a brute fact of observation.

Analysing this:
Most of the galaxies Hubble observed showed redshifted
spectra. This was `a brute fact of observation,' although,
having had the pleasure of looking at a few observational
spectra, and knowing how one obtains them and derives
redshifts from them, I would hesitate to apply the precise
adjective `brute' to the observational facts ;->
The conclusion, drawn from the `brute' observational fact.
that `the universe was obviously expanding' is clearly a
hypothesis, a theory, or an interpretation of the brute
observational facts, depending on your preference.
The theory, or interpretation, that the redshift results
from universal expansion is a very natural one in the light
of general relativity theory, certainly, but it's nevertheless a
hypothesis. Alternative hypotheses are possible.
Thus, your compound statement is counterfactual.
The second statement you made was:

Steady state Universe theories cannot expplain
this. Another brute fact.

As I explained, this understanding of the content of steady
state theories given is a simple misapprehension.
To reiterate, I'm more concerned with the theoretical
content of the ideas than with the terms we use to
describe them.

The Big bang as we know it is proven.

The hot big bang theory, as stated by Gamow and others, is
clearly the superior hypothesis at the present time. Steady
state theories have no natural explanation for the observed
abundances of the light elements or for the cosmic microwave
background radiation.
I think that proven is an overloaded term in general, although
I don't object to your use of it here. Scientific theories are
never proven in the sense that mathematical theorems are
proven, that's all I would say.
The big bang theory is solidly enough tested, `to
test' being an older, and I think more useful in the context
of science, sense of the verb `to prove', that it's
extremely hard to imagine that the core statements of the
the big bang hypothesis ... that the universe evolved, starting
a very long time ago, from a relatively dense and very hot
initial state towards its present relatively dilute and cool state,
will ever be discarded.

Sub-theories, inflation are being proven and that
always makes it very hard to imagine a theory
being overthrown.

Inflation is altogether more problematic than the hot
big bang.
Inflation was in fact invented as an explanation for certain
otherwise theoretically hard to explain aspects of the
initial conditions required for the hot big bang, such as
the horizon problem, the flatness problem and the entropy
problem.
In point of fact it's hard to identify definitive
predictions of inflationary cosmology beyond the
observational and theoretical problems it was created to
explain. But there exist no really convincing alternative
solutions to those theoretical problems that I know of.
Most cosmologists do seem to believe in inflationary
scenarios today. I don't except myself from the general
view. However, there are other proposals around. One of
them may even be correct. I'm content to keep an open mind
on the question.

Some theories, like quantum mechanics are superb
except when it comes to gravity. Partially
proven.

Support for quantum mechanics, when quantum mechanics is
applied to microphysics, which is the realm which it was
devised to describe, is so extremely extensive as to render
quantum mechanics a fully proven theory in any sense I would
ever care to use.
Gravitational theory, in the cases in which it's been tested
(`prove') so far, deals with phenomena that are manifest
on much larger length scales than the typical wavelengths
involved in the cases in which quantum mechanics can be
tested.
In part because of this, and possibly in larger part because
of the nature of the current classical master theory of
gravitation, it has been quite unclear exactly how quantum
mechanics can be made to mesh with gravity.
There is a plethora of different theoretical ideas in this
area. Many today will say that string theories are the most
likely to provide a solution at some point in the future.
I think one statement of the state of affairs is that
we simply don't have a unified description of physics
on all length scales as yet. It's not surprising given
that we are creatures who exist on length and time
scales that are intermediate, as well as far distant
from those that are observationally relevant for
quantum mechanics or for gravitation.

Some theories, like Lamarkism, or phlogiston are
disproven.

Agreed.

The fact is, the Big Bang is about as well proven
a theory as one can get.

I think classical mechanics, quantum electrodynamics, and
the Standard Model of particle physics are probably better
proven, in the sense of having been far more extensively and
quantitatively tested.
However, we're still lacking the detection of the Higgs boson,
and we may well see, or at least a lot of particle physicists are
eagerly anticipating such an outcome, within the next few years,
the discovery of a whole raft of new particles ... some of the
supersymmetric partners to the elementary particles we have
so far detected.
General relativity is also very extensively and
quantitatively tested, although less so in the regime of
strong gravitational fields.
Cheers!
David
.


User: "explainer"

Title: Re: Pat Buchanan: Darwin's Pyrrhic victory 02 Jan 2006 05:28:33 PM
I am out of my universe in this thread (or string, whatever), but was
wondering if the proposal offered by Geoffrey and Margaret Burbidge in
the November Discover magazine is worth a comment as I remember what my
physics professor liked to remind us: "in science, the jury is always
out, no matter the evidence".
http://www.discover.com/issues/nov-05/features/two-against-the-big-bang/
I read the article, but my science background is inadequate to compare
their suggestion with the big bang theory.
Thanks and all the best, Gordon Hill
.
User: "Googler"

Title: Re: Pat Buchanan: Darwin's Pyrrhic victory 02 Jan 2006 07:11:41 PM
explainer wrote:

I am out of my universe in this thread (or string, whatever), but was
wondering if the proposal offered by Geoffrey and Margaret Burbidge in
the November Discover magazine is worth a comment as I remember what my
physics professor liked to remind us: "in science, the jury is always
out, no matter the evidence".

http://www.discover.com/issues/nov-05/features/two-against-the-big-bang/

I read the article, but my science background is inadequate to compare
their suggestion with the big bang theory.

Thanks and all the best, Gordon Hill

Burbridge's hypothesis - known as Quasi Steady State Cosmology or QSSC
- had been published some time ago. There is no question it is
*different* from the more accepted 'Big Bang' cosmology.
The 'Big Bang' cosmologies, even in the newer inflationary versions,
seem to require the 'plugging in' of certain universal constants.
Those constants do not derive from the theory itself but have to be
discovered empirically. A few cosmologists like Burbridge saw - and
see - this as a problem with the entire theoretical approach - a
problem with the 'paradigm', if you will.
The QSSC avoids this rather ad hoc situation, and the 'constants'
actually do fall out from the equations. However, the only way the
hypothesis can work is through the introduction of a non-quantized
field. The QSSC calls it a 'classical' field, but the meaning is the
same.
Generally, this would be a fatal error and would condemn the whole
hypothesis, since our current understanding of quantum field theory
(QFT) indicates that non-quantized fields cannot exist.
If I understand the QSSC correctly, it seems to imply that the
non-quantized field is really not a problem since any singularity
would be unreachable in an infinite cosmos.
But it isn't only a question of avoiding a singularity. The
*existence* of even one non-quantized field would amount to a claim
that QFT as currently understood is *also* wrong. That would strike
almost all physicists as being too big a price to pay to prop up this
hypothesis, especially when there are other cosmological hypotheses
that don't require such a drastic move.
While obervations like the cosmic background radiation are difficulties
for any kind of steady state hypothesis, those difficulties can be
explained away.
But discarding our understanding of QFT is quite a different game.
So one would have to say that no, QSSC is not the way to go.
.
User: "explainer"

Title: Re: Pat Buchanan: Darwin's Pyrrhic victory 02 Jan 2006 08:32:58 PM
Thanks Googler,
You may have spent more time on this than my brain deserves.
I have reread it and "think" I understand.
As an "above average" student of science I am beginning to think one
rreason for the easy acceptance of a creator is that it's a lot easier
than learning the science.
In my case, I believe in causation, but not an anthromorphic model.
All the best, Gordon Hill
.


User: "David Ewan Kahana"

Title: Re: Pat Buchanan: Darwin's Pyrrhic victory 03 Jan 2006 03:45:25 AM
explainer wrote:

I am out of my universe in this thread (or string, whatever), but was
wondering if the proposal offered by Geoffrey and Margaret Burbidge in
the November Discover magazine is worth a comment as I remember what my
physics professor liked to remind us: "in science, the jury is always
out, no matter the evidence".

http://www.discover.com/issues/nov-05/features/two-against-the-big-bang/

I read the article, but my science background is inadequate to compare
their suggestion with the big bang theory.

Thanks and all the best, Gordon Hill

I don't have access to discover online so can't comment on
this article except to say that the tone of the initial
three paragraphs seems a bit sensationalist, even
polemical. I'm vaguely familiar with the quasi-steady state
theories that Burbidge and Burbidge propose. They are
essentially refinements of ideas developed together with
Hoyle and Narlikar in the early 1990's, which in turn are a
continuing effort to save Hoyle's old steady state
cosmology.
The authors make some modifications to general relativity in
the case of strong gravitational fields, which is perfectly
fine. We can't be sure that classical general relativity is
right in such limits. But I think that all of that is more
or less a side issue as I'll explain.
Both the Burbidges and Hoyle are very solid scientists with
high reputations, and all made very significant
contributions in the early days of cosmology.
Now: Hoyle's steady state cosmology was an expanding
cosmology, there had to be new galaxies continuously formed
in the spaces that were opened up by the expansion. The new
galaxies required new matter in order to be able to
form.
Hoyle proposed, extremely ingeniously in my own view, that
hydrogen atoms were continuously being created out of
nothing in intergalactic space, but at a very slow rate, so
slow that it couldn't possibly be directly observed here on
earth. Over time, the hydrogen supposedly built up, formed
clouds, collapsed and then ultimately formed new galaxies
and stars, and this process simply continued forever. Hence
the universe was made to be apparently eternal and in some
sense, basically unchanging, or rather always changing in
basically the same way, forever.
You should understand that at the same time, a major issue
for cosmology, already before world war II, since processes
such as nuclear fission had just been observed, was the
detailed explanation of the origin and relative abundances
of the chemical elements in the universe. New
understandings of nuclear physics were being developed in
the years leading up to the war, and during and immediately
after the war there was very rapid progress.
Hoyle and Fowler in particular developed the idea that all
of the elements had been produced inside stars. Their work
remains critically important and the mechanisms they
proposed still remain as the widely accepted explanations
for the origin of all of the heavier elements.
At around the same time Gamow and collaborators, eventually
including Alpher and Bethe, in approaching the same problem
of nucleosynthesis, chose to work instead within the
cosmologies of Friedmann and Lemaitre, in which the universe
was said to have expanded from an initially dense state,
beginning at a fixed time in the past. They were able to
explain the abundances of the lightest elements, predicted
that almost no elements heavier than mass 8 would have been
produced in the early universe, and certainly by 1948 had
made the prediction that there would be a detectable relic
microwave background radiation.
Of course, this still left open the question where the
heavier elements had come from. The leading proposal is that
they have all been produced in stars by the mechanisms of
Hoyle and collaborators, and then gradually dispersed into
the interstellar medium by supernova explosions,
An astronomer named Andrew McKellan had in fact already
indirectly detected, in about 1940, the microwave radiation,
by the observation of the rotational spectra of certain
diatomic molecules in space, and he had inferred its rough
temperature, but he did not relate this discovery to
cosmological models and his work appears to have been
unknown to the workers on the big bang approach to
nucleosynthesis.
Then in about 1965 the microwave background was _directly_
detected, and it turned out to have close to the temperature
predicted in 1948 by the workers on the big bang
cosmologies. Lately it has been shown also by observation
that the microwave background has an extremely good
blackbody or thermal spectrum, too, and it is also observed
to be extremely uniform in all directions in the sky.
Now, with all of that background having been given, one
central criticism of the steady state models remains that
there exists no natural explanation at all in such models
for why the universal abundances of the lightest elements,
namely hydrogen, helium-(3,4), deuterium and lithium-7 come
in particular numerical ratios, all of which ratios are in
fact directly predictable in the big bang models given only
that a single parameter, the ratio of the number of photons
to the number of baryons in the early universe, is adjusted
externally to be about 10^10.
In addition, and much more importantly, the steady state
models have to resort to mechanisms that are very hard to
believe in order to produce the extremely uniform and very
close to thermal spectrum of the cosmic microwave
background. The steady state models say that all of the
helium-4 in the universe (which constitutes about 1/4 of the
matter in the universe by mass), has been produced in stars
by burning from hydrogen to helium. The heat liberated by
that combustion is said somehow to have become thermalized
due to interactions with dust, or by interactions with tiny
fingers of iron produced in supernovae explosions, or take
your pick. The point is, that it's very hard to explain both
the very good thermal spectrum of the background radiation,
and the extremely uniform distribution across the sky,
whereas these features are much more naturally explained in
the hot big bang picture.
But there are, nevertheless, many open issues left unsolved in
cosmology, and the conversation continues.
David
.
User: "explainer"

Title: Re: Pat Buchanan: Darwin's Pyrrhic victory 03 Jan 2006 06:25:32 AM
David Ewan Kahana wrote:

explainer wrote:

I am out of my universe in this thread (or string, whatever), but was
wondering if the proposal offered by Geoffrey and Margaret Burbidge in
the November Discover magazine is worth a comment as I remember what my
physics professor liked to remind us: "in science, the jury is always
out, no matter the evidence".

http://www.discover.com/issues/nov-05/features/two-against-the-big-bang/

I read the article, but my science background is inadequate to compare
their suggestion with the big bang theory.

Thanks and all the best, Gordon Hill


I don't have access to discover online so can't comment on
this article except to say that the tone of the initial
three paragraphs seems a bit sensationalist, even
polemical. I'm vaguely familiar with the quasi-steady state
theories that Burbidge and Burbidge propose. They are
essentially refinements of ideas developed together with
Hoyle and Narlikar in the early 1990's, which in turn are a
continuing effort to save Hoyle's old steady state
cosmology.

The authors make some modifications to general relativity in
the case of strong gravitational fields, which is perfectly
fine. We can't be sure that classical general relativity is
right in such limits. But I think that all of that is more
or less a side issue as I'll explain.

Both the Burbidges and Hoyle are very solid scientists with
high reputations, and all made very significant
contributions in the early days of cosmology.

Now: Hoyle's steady state cosmology was an expanding
cosmology, there had to be new galaxies continuously formed
in the spaces that were opened up by the expansion. The new
galaxies required new matter in order to be able to
form.

Hoyle proposed, extremely ingeniously in my own view, that
hydrogen atoms were continuously being created out of
nothing in intergalactic space, but at a very slow rate, so
slow that it couldn't possibly be directly observed here on
earth. Over time, the hydrogen supposedly built up, formed
clouds, collapsed and then ultimately formed new galaxies
and stars, and this process simply continued forever. Hence
the universe was made to be apparently eternal and in some
sense, basically unchanging, or rather always changing in
basically the same way, forever.

You should understand that at the same time, a major issue
for cosmology, already before world war II, since processes
such as nuclear fission had just been observed, was the
detailed explanation of the origin and relative abundances
of the chemical elements in the universe. New
understandings of nuclear physics were being developed in
the years leading up to the war, and during and immediately
after the war there was very rapid progress.

Hoyle and Fowler in particular developed the idea that all
of the elements had been produced inside stars. Their work
remains critically important and the mechanisms they
proposed still remain as the widely accepted explanations
for the origin of all of the heavier elements.

At around the same time Gamow and collaborators, eventually
including Alpher and Bethe, in approaching the same problem
of nucleosynthesis, chose to work instead within the
cosmologies of Friedmann and Lemaitre, in which the universe
was said to have expanded from an initially dense state,
beginning at a fixed time in the past. They were able to
explain the abundances of the lightest elements, predicted
that almost no elements heavier than mass 8 would have been
produced in the early universe, and certainly by 1948 had
made the prediction that there would be a detectable relic
microwave background radiation.

Of course, this still left open the question where the
heavier elements had come from. The leading proposal is that
they have all been produced in stars by the mechanisms of
Hoyle and collaborators, and then gradually dispersed into
the interstellar medium by supernova explosions,

An astronomer named Andrew McKellan had in fact already
indirectly detected, in about 1940, the microwave radiation,
by the observation of the rotational spectra of certain
diatomic molecules in space, and he had inferred its rough
temperature, but he did not relate this discovery to
cosmological models and his work appears to have been
unknown to the workers on the big bang approach to
nucleosynthesis.

Then in about 1965 the microwave background was _directly_
detected, and it turned out to have close to the temperature
predicted in 1948 by the workers on the big bang
cosmologies. Lately it has been shown also by observation
that the microwave background has an extremely good
blackbody or thermal spectrum, too, and it is also observed
to be extremely uniform in all directions in the sky.

Now, with all of that background having been given, one
central criticism of the steady state models remains that
there exists no natural explanation at all in such models
for why the universal abundances of the lightest elements,
namely hydrogen, helium-(3,4), deuterium and lithium-7 come
in particular numerical ratios, all of which ratios are in
fact directly predictable in the big bang models given only
that a single parameter, the ratio of the number of photons
to the number of baryons in the early universe, is adjusted
externally to be about 10^10.

In addition, and much more importantly, the steady state
models have to resort to mechanisms that are very hard to
believe in order to produce the extremely uniform and very
close to thermal spectrum of the cosmic microwave
background. The steady state models say that all of the
helium-4 in the universe (which constitutes about 1/4 of the
matter in the universe by mass), has been produced in stars
by burning from hydrogen to helium. The heat liberated by
that combustion is said somehow to have become thermalized
due to interactions with dust, or by interactions with tiny
fingers of iron produced in supernovae explosions, or take
your pick. The point is, that it's very hard to explain both
the very good thermal spectrum of the background radiation,
and the extremely uniform distribution across the sky,
whereas these features are much more naturally explained in
the hot big bang picture.

Whew! Thank you beyond words.

But there are, nevertheless, many open issues left unsolved in
cosmology, and the conversation continues.

One of the issues for me is the continuum between what I refer to as
pure intelligence (truths with universal proof) true belief (truths
which are local).
Voicing this causes controversy, but I don't offer it as fact, only the
model I use.
All the best, Gordon Hill
.
User: "Robert J. Kolker"

Title: Re: Pat Buchanan: Darwin's Pyrrhic victory 03 Jan 2006 07:35:52 AM
explainer wrote:


One of the issues for me is the continuum between what I refer to as
pure intelligence (truths with universal proof) true belief (truths
which are local).

Truth with universal proof is just an excercise in predicate calculus, a
man-made concoction. The only truth that matters is the correspondence
or cohesion between assertions about the world and facts observed in the
world.
Formal deducibility is vastly overrated. We cannot prove the consistency
of our most basic mathematical systems (Goedel's theorems).
But this is no cause for gloom, not at all. With the few tools we have
we can construction machines and other items that make our lives longer
and easier. Not bad for a bunch of primates with three pound brains.
Rejoice in what we are: the talkative branch of the primate clan.
Bob Kolker
.
User: "explainer"

Title: Re: Pat Buchanan: Darwin's Pyrrhic victory 03 Jan 2006 09:55:11 AM
Bob,
You kill me and that's a good thing. Every time I tone down my
thoughts--wanting to ease something through--you nail me.
My definition of "truth" is everything I hold as "true" and place it
across a "know"ledge spectrum with "universal" at one end and "local at
the other.
I also must remind myself that every "truth" is tentative.
Thanks for tapping me on the head.
All the best, Gordon Hill
.



User: "Matt Silberstein"

Title: Re: Pat Buchanan: Darwin's Pyrrhic victory 04 Jan 2006 09:01:07 AM
On 3 Jan 2006 01:45:25 -0800, in talk.origins , "David Ewan Kahana"
<dek@bnl.gov> in
<1136281525.171443.30550@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com> wrote:
[snip]

At around the same time Gamow and collaborators, eventually
including Alpher and Bethe,

The most fortuitously named collaboration in history, excepting the
duo responsible for the following:
Dr. Sam Johnson (with laurel wreath in hand) greets Bart (the new
sheriff), reading from a piece of paper, not realizing that Bart is
black]
Howard Johnson: As chairman of the welcoming committee, it's a
pleasure to present a laurel [pause, handing wreath]
and hardy handshake to our new [finally looks up]
Howard Johnson: ... *****.
Memorable Quotes from Blazing Saddles (1974)
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0071230/quotes
A magnificent pun, 50 years in the making.
[snip]
--
Matt Silberstein
Do something today about the Darfur Genocide
http://www.beawitness.org
http://www.darfurgenocide.org
http://www.savedarfur.org
"Darfur: A Genocide We can Stop"
.










User: "Ike"

Title: Re: Pat Buchanan: Darwin's Pyrrhic victory 28 Dec 2005 09:27:12 AM
"Jason Spaceman" <notreally@jspaceman.homelinux.org> wrote in message
news:g7l4r11vv7oltg9tilh8b8lcic83hhpnfi@4ax.com...

From the article:
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Posted: December 28, 2005
1:00 a.m. Eastern

Đ 2005 Creators Syndicate Inc.

"Intelligent Design Derailed," exulted the headline.

"By now, the Christian conservatives who once dominated the school
board in Dover, Pa., ought to rue their recklessness in forcing
biology classes to hear about 'intelligent design' as an alternative
to the theory of evolution," declared the New York Times, which added
its own caning to the Christians who dared challenge the revealed
truths of Darwinian scripture.

Noting that U.S. District Judge John E. Jones III is a Bush appointee,
the Washington Post called his decision "a scathing opinion that
criticized local school board members for lying under oath and for
their 'breathtaking inanity' in trying to inject religion into science
classes."

But is it really game, set, match, Darwin?

Have these fellows forgotten that John Scopes, the teacher in that
1925 "Monkey Trial," lost in court, and was convicted of violating
Tennessee law against the teaching of evolution and fined $100? Yet
Darwin went on to conquer public education, and American Civil
Liberties Union atheists went on to purge Christianity and the Bible
from our public schools.

The Dover defeat notwithstanding, the pendulum is clearly swinging
back. Darwinism is on the defensive. For, as Tom Bethell, author of
"The Politically Incorrect Guide to Science," reminds us, there is no
better way to make kids curious about "intelligent design" than to
have some Neanderthal forbid its being mentioned in biology class.


I represent the L.A.N.D. League Against Neanderthal Discrimination. The
author of this scurrilous diatribe seems to be blaming the Neanderthal races
for causing a questioning of his retrograde religiosity. The well-deserved
questioning in question here, was promulgated by rational thinking Homo
Sapiens, and it makes no difference who happened to have appointed the judge
who made the decision to bar the other Homo Sapien fanatics, undoubtedly of
the sort who instigated the holocaust of the Neanderthals. Even though my
people may have been termed cannibals because they were eating Homo Sapiens,
it was all a result of a misunderstanding of luncheon invitations. When they
would arrive at the site of the fiesta, they seemed not to "get it" and they
insisted upon violating our taboos. We gave them chance after chance, and
they insikept acting like animals every time. That is certainly not an
excuse for exterminating our race. If only the "Sapienites" vould haff
learned our rituals they would have had no problem enjoying the dinner. But
they had this ego trip going on.
.
User: "Ike"

Title: It vass unfortunate but tasty 28 Dec 2005 10:20:59 AM
"Ike" <accordiondocxyzxyzxyz@mindspring.com> wrote in message
news:k9ysf.11009$nm.7454@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net...


"Jason Spaceman" <notreally@jspaceman.homelinux.org> wrote in message
news:g7l4r11vv7oltg9tilh8b8lcic83hhpnfi@4ax.com...

From the article:
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Posted: December 28, 2005
1:00 a.m. Eastern

Đ 2005 Creators Syndicate Inc.

"Intelligent Design Derailed," exulted the headline.

"By now, the Christian conservatives who once dominated the school
board in Dover, Pa., ought to rue their recklessness in forcing
biology classes to hear about 'intelligent design' as an alternative
to the theory of evolution," declared the New York Times, which added
its own caning to the Christians who dared challenge the revealed
truths of Darwinian scripture.

Noting that U.S. District Judge John E. Jones III is a Bush appointee,
the Washington Post called his decision "a scathing opinion that
criticized local school board members for lying under oath and for
their 'breathtaking inanity' in trying to inject religion into science
classes."

But is it really game, set, match, Darwin?

Have these fellows forgotten that John Scopes, the teacher in that
1925 "Monkey Trial," lost in court, and was convicted of violating
Tennessee law against the teaching of evolution and fined $100? Yet
Darwin went on to conquer public education, and American Civil
Liberties Union atheists went on to purge Christianity and the Bible
from our public schools.

The Dover defeat notwithstanding, the pendulum is clearly swinging
back. Darwinism is on the defensive. For, as Tom Bethell, author of
"The Politically Incorrect Guide to Science," reminds us, there is no
better way to make kids curious about "intelligent design" than to
have some Neanderthal forbid its being mentioned in biology class.


I represent the L.A.N.D. League Against Neanderthal Discrimination. The
author of this scurrilous diatribe seems to be blaming the Neanderthal
races
for causing a questioning of his retrograde religiosity. The well-deserved
questioning in question here, was promulgated by rational thinking Homo
Sapiens, and it makes no difference who happened to have appointed the
judge
who made the decision to bar the other Homo Sapien fanatics, undoubtedly
of
the sort who instigated the holocaust of the Neanderthals. Even though my
people may have been termed cannibals because they were eating Homo
Sapiens,
it was all a result of a misunderstanding of luncheon invitations. When
they
would arrive at the site of the fiesta, they seemed not to "get it" and
they
insisted upon violating our taboos. We gave them chance after chance, and
they insikept acting like animals every time. That is certainly not an
excuse for exterminating our race. If only the "Sapienites" vould haff
learned our rituals they would have had no problem enjoying the dinner.
But
they had this ego trip going on.

.

User: "nmp"

Title: Re: Pat Buchanan: Darwin's Pyrrhic victory 28 Dec 2005 11:45:39 AM
On behalf of the Neanderthal people, it was decided that Ike should write:

they insikept acting like animals every time. That is certainly not an
excuse for exterminating our race. If only the "Sapienites" vould haff
learned our rituals they would have had no problem enjoying the dinner.
But they had this ego trip going on.

:)
You know, that may well have been *the* defining difference between
ourselves (as a species) and the Neanderthals. That is, our tendency
towards ego trippery.
.


User: "Bill"

Title: Re: Pat Buchanan: Darwin's Pyrrhic victory 28 Dec 2005 08:57:41 AM
"Jason Spaceman" <notreally@jspaceman.homelinux.org> wrote in message
news:g7l4r11vv7oltg9tilh8b8lcic83hhpnfi@4ax.com...

From the article:
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Posted: December 28, 2005
1:00 a.m. Eastern

Đ 2005 Creators Syndicate Inc.

"Intelligent Design Derailed," exulted the headline.

"By now, the Christian conservatives who once dominated the school
board in Dover, Pa., ought to rue their recklessness in forcing
biology classes to hear about 'intelligent design' as an alternative
to the theory of evolution," declared the New York Times, which added
its own caning to the Christians who dared challenge the revealed
truths of Darwinian scripture.

Noting that U.S. District Judge John E. Jones III is a Bush appointee,
the Washington Post called his decision "a scathing opinion that
criticized local school board members for lying under oath and for
their 'breathtaking inanity' in trying to inject religion into science
classes."

But is it really game, set, match, Darwin?

Have these fellows forgotten that John Scopes, the teacher in that
1925 "Monkey Trial," lost in court, and was convicted of violating
Tennessee law against the teaching of evolution and fined $100? Yet
Darwin went on to conquer public education, and American Civil
Liberties Union atheists went on to purge Christianity and the Bible
from our public schools.

The Dover defeat notwithstanding, the pendulum is clearly swinging
back. Darwinism is on the defensive. For, as Tom Bethell, author of
"The Politically Incorrect Guide to Science," reminds us, there is no
better way to make kids curious about "intelligent design" than to
have some Neanderthal forbid its being mentioned in biology class.

In ideological politics, winning by losing is textbook stuff. The
Goldwater defeat of 1964, which a triumphant left said would bury the
right forever, turned out to be liberalism's last hurrah. Like Marxism
and Freudianism, Darwinism appears destined for the graveyard of
discredited ideas, no matter the breathtaking inanity of the trial
judge. In his opinion, Judge Jones the Third declared:

The overwhelming evidence is that [intelligent design] is a
religious
view, a mere re-labeling of creationism and not a scientific
theory ... It is an extension of the fundamentalists' view
that one must either accept the literal interpretation of
Genesis or else believe in the godless
system of evolution.

But if intelligent design is creationism or fundamentalism in drag,
how does Judge Jones explain how that greatest of ancient thinkers,
Aristotle, who died 300 years before Christ, concluded that the
physical universe points directly to an unmoved First Mover?

Pure idiocy! Why on earth would you consider an ancient, born centuries
before
the knowledge of modern science and a realistic knowledge of the world, as
an
authority on Evolution Science? The knowledge of Evolution did not exist
until 18 centuries
after Aristotle's demise
.
User: "Scott Draper"

Title: Re: Pat Buchanan: Darwin's Pyrrhic victory 28 Dec 2005 09:32:38 AM
<<Why on earth would you consider an ancient, born centuries
before the knowledge of modern science and a realistic knowledge of
the world, as an>>
His point is that ID cannot be creationism when someone such as
Aristotle held the belief well before Christianity came into being.
This has nothing to do with the truth or falsity of the belief.
.
User: "kathryn"

Title: Re: Pat Buchanan: Darwin's Pyrrhic victory 28 Dec 2005 10:15:59 AM
"Scott Draper" <nospam@spamproof.com> wrote in message
news:usb5r1tb0l92j5cg97ntl7mqgs9bnu1c5s@4ax.com...

<<Why on earth would you consider an ancient, born centuries
before the knowledge of modern science and a realistic knowledge of
the world, as an>>

His point is that ID cannot be creationism when someone such as
Aristotle held the belief well before Christianity came into being.

This has nothing to do with the truth or falsity of the belief.

Um.....they still thought fire was from the gods back then as well.
.
User: "Emma Pease"

Title: Re: Pat Buchanan: Darwin's Pyrrhic victory 28 Dec 2005 03:02:22 PM
In article <doudnu$j20$1@nwrdmz01.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com>, kathryn wrote:


"Scott Draper" <nospam@spamproof.com> wrote in message
news:usb5r1tb0l92j5cg97ntl7mqgs9bnu1c5s@4ax.com...

<<Why on earth would you consider an ancient, born centuries
before the knowledge of modern science and a realistic knowledge of
the world, as an>>

His point is that ID cannot be creationism when someone such as
Aristotle held the belief well before Christianity came into being.

This has nothing to do with the truth or falsity of the belief.


Um.....they still thought fire was from the gods back then as well.

Not Aristotle though. Note that Aristotle's prime mover is fairly
different from the Intelligent Designer. The prime mover need not be
intelligent and once setting things in motion need play no other role.
I suspect Aristotle would have been unhappy with something that had to
come in and fiddle time and time again to get things right.
Aristotle was amongst the first and certainly the most important who
tried explaining the world by natural means. He set the stage for
future investigations in a multitude of fields. Unfortunately a lot
of his successors merely quoted him rather than doing further
investigations such as he had done.
As some have said we can see further because we are standing on the
shoulders of giants; one of the earliest and tallest giants is Aristotle.
--
\----
|\* | Emma Pease Net Spinster
|_\/ Die Luft der Freiheit weht
.


User: "Steven Sullivan"

Title: Re: Pat Buchanan: Darwin's Pyrrhic victory 28 Dec 2005 11:06:23 AM
In talk.origins Scott Draper <nospam@spamproof.com> wrote:

<<Why on earth would you consider an ancient, born centuries
before the knowledge of modern science and a realistic knowledge of
the world, as an>>
His point is that ID cannot be creationism when someone such as
Aristotle held the belief well before Christianity came into being.

That's nonsensical reasoning too. It's like saying, Methodists
can't be Christian because Jews were monotheists before
Christians were.
Buchanan glides over the fact that there simply is no
groundswell of 'ID' thought within science. It's all coming
from the religious side.

This has nothing to do with the truth or falsity of the belief.

And ID , as it is currently constituted , has nothing to
do with scientific integrity or method. It is in fact an
ill-concealed attempt to subvert both and replace it with
'revealed truth', specifically that of the Christian
variety.
--
-S
"The most appealing intuitive argument for atheism is the mindblowing stupidity of religious
fundamentalists." -- Ginger Yellow
.

User: "CreateThis"

Title: Re: Pat Buchanan: Darwin's Pyrrhic victory 28 Dec 2005 09:49:47 AM
Scott Draper wrote:

<<Why on earth would you consider an ancient, born centuries
before the knowledge of modern science and a realistic knowledge of
the world, as an>>

His point is that ID cannot be creationism when someone such as
Aristotle held the belief well before Christianity came into being.

This has nothing to do with the truth or falsity of the belief.

But his point is ludicrous anyway. Christianity wasn't the birth of
creationism.
CT
.




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