| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"Ash" |
| Date: |
06 Apr 2005 07:14:02 AM |
| Object: |
Pope JPII - A great man? |
Well, this might have been covered, but I killed pope threads last week
as there were too many of them. Are there dissenters here to hte "The
Pope was a great man" belief? Any people who don't believe he single
handledly brought down communism in Eastern Europe (strange, last year
it was Reagan who did this)? People who think he did more harm than
good? Others who do think he was a model of someone standing up for his
beliefs nad a great leader?
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| User: "LinDaKat" |
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| Title: Re: Pope JPII - A great man? |
06 Apr 2005 07:53:24 AM |
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"Ash" <ashamanic@winterfell73.fsnet.co.uk> wrote in message
news:d30jq0$76v$1@newsg1.svr.pol.co.uk... and had the courage to say out
loud what many only expressed privately!
Well, this might have been covered, but I killed pope threads last week as
there were too many of them.
Same here. And I refuse to watch another minute of CNN and their non-stop
papal bull.
Are there dissenters here to hte "The Pope was a great man" belief?
Great...sure. *sarcasm* great at turning a deaf ear to the cries of his own
flock. Great at ignoring the various crises and challenges the catholic
church faced during his tenure? reign? time in office? insert better word
if one has one. He was great at silencing the voices of women. He was
great at ignoring the plight of children, especially those victimized by
paedophiliac priests. Sure...
Any people who don't believe he single handledly brought down communism in
Eastern Europe (strange, last year it was Reagan who did this)?
Geeze...I was around back then and watched with amazement and surprise as
the leader of the USSR, some dude named Gorbechev came up with the radical
ideas of "glasnost" and "perestroika" which opened the iron curtain enough
for the western word to see the truth: that communist are merely people,
people who live in a country colder than Canada. As I recall, glasnost
caught the west by surprise; espescially Reagan and the agents, advisors and
spies who were supposed to be watching for any changes in the USSR. And as
I also recall, the radical policies of Gorbechev ushered in the downfall of
communism.
People who think he did more harm than
good? Others who do think he was a model of someone standing up for his
beliefs nad a great leader?
As for the more harm than good...I'd suggest asking an impoverished woman in
a third world nation with eight children and another on the way--and she
can't use birth control because it's a so-called sin...or the person dying
of AIDS whose life could have been saved with a condom...Ask the man who has
lived a life in a private hell because of what a priest did to him...Ask the
women who want to participate in church life but can't because JP silenced
their voices.
I will grant him one thing...he stood his ground when logic and common sense
were arrayed against him. True, he offered a symbolic apology for some of
the many atrocities of history, but they barely amounted to an "oops..sorry
folks! Our bad!" He also symbolically admitted the catholic church might
have been off-base on the issue of Galileo...and came across more foolish
than if the church wouldn't have apologised.
On Friday I will be elsewhere, certainly not glued to a television watching
the funeral.
LinDaKat...life is like a litter box. Don't ask why...it just is.
I was beginning to think I was alone in my feelings!
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| User: "CQMMAN" |
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| Title: Re: Pope JPII - A great man? |
06 Apr 2005 08:22:11 AM |
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LinDaKat <nobodySPAMTHIS@nowhere.com> wrote:
Any people who don't believe he single handledly brought down
communism in Eastern Europe (strange, last year it was Reagan who
did this)?
Geeze...I was around back then and watched with amazement and
surprise as the leader of the USSR, some dude named Gorbechev came up
with the radical ideas of "glasnost"
I though glasnost was introduced in 1985. Funny how the mind plays tricks on
your mind...
--
Remember that you are an Englishman, and have consequently won first
prize in the lottery of life" -Cecil Rhodes
"For a century and a half now, America and Japan have formed one of the
great and enduring alliances of modern times."
George W Bush -Tokyo, Japan, Feb. 18, 2002
Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the
stones. Psalms 137:9.
"He who rises up to kill us, we will pre-empt it and kill him first,"
- Ariel Sharon 8th May 2002
William Dunn (US fighter ace): "Now, if I had to make the choice of one
fighter aircraft above all the others - one that I'd rather have tied
to the seat of my pants in any tactical situation - it would be,
without any doubt, the world's greatest propeller driven flying machine
- the magnificent and immortal Spitfire."
.
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| User: "LinDaKat" |
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| Title: Re: Pope JPII - A great man? |
06 Apr 2005 10:01:52 AM |
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"CQMMAN" <cqmman@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:d30nq5$8dk$1@inews.gazeta.pl...
LinDaKat <nobodySPAMTHIS@nowhere.com> wrote:
Any people who don't believe he single handledly brought down
communism in Eastern Europe (strange, last year it was Reagan who
did this)?
Geeze...I was around back then and watched with amazement and
surprise as the leader of the USSR, some dude named Gorbechev came up
with the radical ideas of "glasnost"
I though glasnost was introduced in 1985. Funny how the mind plays tricks
on
your mind...
Yup...that date is correct...coincides with many personal milestones. And
the pope still had no direct involvement with the fall of the Soviet Union.
*< Life is like a box of cat litter. You dig and dig and you still can't
cover all the crap.
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| User: "CQMMAN" |
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| Title: Re: Pope JPII - A great man? |
06 Apr 2005 05:24:40 PM |
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LinDaKat <nobodySPAMTHIS@nowhere.com> wrote:
"CQMMAN" <cqmman@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:d30nq5$8dk$1@inews.gazeta.pl...
LinDaKat <nobodySPAMTHIS@nowhere.com> wrote:
Any people who don't believe he single handledly brought down
communism in Eastern Europe (strange, last year it was Reagan who
did this)?
Geeze...I was around back then and watched with amazement and
surprise as the leader of the USSR, some dude named Gorbechev came
up with the radical ideas of "glasnost"
I though glasnost was introduced in 1985. Funny how the mind plays
tricks on
your mind...
Yup...that date is correct...coincides with many personal milestones.
And the pope still had no direct involvement with the fall of the
Soviet Union.
Just seems funny that it was Glasnost that apparently started the end of
communism in 1985, when the movement to end it in Poland was well underway
by 1980... Are you saying that that Poland and the rest of the world have
different calendars?
--
Remember that you are an Englishman, and have consequently won first
prize in the lottery of life" -Cecil Rhodes
"For a century and a half now, America and Japan have formed one of the
great and enduring alliances of modern times."
George W Bush -Tokyo, Japan, Feb. 18, 2002
Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the
stones. Psalms 137:9.
"He who rises up to kill us, we will pre-empt it and kill him first,"
- Ariel Sharon 8th May 2002
William Dunn (US fighter ace): "Now, if I had to make the choice of one
fighter aircraft above all the others - one that I'd rather have tied
to the seat of my pants in any tactical situation - it would be,
without any doubt, the world's greatest propeller driven flying machine
- the magnificent and immortal Spitfire."
.
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| User: "Ash" |
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| Title: Re: Pope JPII - A great man? |
06 Apr 2005 06:03:09 PM |
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CQMMAN wrote:
LinDaKat <nobodySPAMTHIS@nowhere.com> wrote:
"CQMMAN" <cqmman@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in message
news:d30nq5$8dk$1@inews.gazeta.pl...
LinDaKat <nobodySPAMTHIS@nowhere.com> wrote:
Any people who don't believe he single handledly brought down
communism in Eastern Europe (strange, last year it was Reagan who
did this)?
Geeze...I was around back then and watched with amazement and
surprise as the leader of the USSR, some dude named Gorbechev came
up with the radical ideas of "glasnost"
I though glasnost was introduced in 1985. Funny how the mind plays
tricks on
your mind...
Yup...that date is correct...coincides with many personal milestones.
And the pope still had no direct involvement with the fall of the
Soviet Union.
Just seems funny that it was Glasnost that apparently started the end of
communism in 1985, when the movement to end it in Poland was well underway
by 1980... Are you saying that that Poland and the rest of the world have
different calendars?
--
Remember that you are an Englishman, and have consequently won first
prize in the lottery of life" -Cecil Rhodes
"For a century and a half now, America and Japan have formed one of the
great and enduring alliances of modern times."
George W Bush -Tokyo, Japan, Feb. 18, 2002
Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the
stones. Psalms 137:9.
"He who rises up to kill us, we will pre-empt it and kill him first,"
- Ariel Sharon 8th May 2002
William Dunn (US fighter ace): "Now, if I had to make the choice of one
fighter aircraft above all the others - one that I'd rather have tied
to the seat of my pants in any tactical situation - it would be,
without any doubt, the world's greatest propeller driven flying machine
- the magnificent and immortal Spitfire."
Perhpas he is saying that the part the Pope played in helping give
strength to the movement in Poland, whether large or small had little
effect or relavance in the rest of Eastern Europe
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| User: "CQMMAN" |
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| Title: Re: Pope JPII - A great man? |
07 Apr 2005 12:42:25 AM |
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Ash <ashamanic@winterfell73.fsnet.co.uk> wrote:
Perhpas he is saying that the part the Pope played in helping give
strength to the movement in Poland, whether large or small had little
effect or relavance in the rest of Eastern Europe
Based on what? His own experience from half a world away. And I thought
atheists were generally more objective than that :)
--
Remember that you are an Englishman, and have consequently won first
prize in the lottery of life" -Cecil Rhodes
"For a century and a half now, America and Japan have formed one of the
great and enduring alliances of modern times."
George W Bush -Tokyo, Japan, Feb. 18, 2002
Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the
stones. Psalms 137:9.
"He who rises up to kill us, we will pre-empt it and kill him first,"
- Ariel Sharon 8th May 2002
William Dunn (US fighter ace): "Now, if I had to make the choice of one
fighter aircraft above all the others - one that I'd rather have tied
to the seat of my pants in any tactical situation - it would be,
without any doubt, the world's greatest propeller driven flying machine
- the magnificent and immortal Spitfire."
.
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| User: "Ash" |
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| Title: Re: Pope JPII - A great man? |
07 Apr 2005 06:34:13 AM |
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CQMMAN wrote:
Ash <ashamanic@winterfell73.fsnet.co.uk> wrote:
Perhpas he is saying that the part the Pope played in helping give
strength to the movement in Poland, whether large or small had little
effect or relavance in the rest of Eastern Europe
Based on what? His own experience from half a world away. And I thought
atheists were generally more objective than that :)
Based on the fact that communism collapsed for economic reasons. Poland
may have been first, but it wasn't so far ahead that we can say that the
others were following
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| User: "CQMMAN" |
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| Title: Re: Pope JPII - A great man? |
07 Apr 2005 07:48:59 AM |
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Ash <ashamanic@winterfell73.fsnet.co.uk> wrote:
CQMMAN wrote:
Ash <ashamanic@winterfell73.fsnet.co.uk> wrote:
Perhpas he is saying that the part the Pope played in helping give
strength to the movement in Poland, whether large or small had
little effect or relavance in the rest of Eastern Europe
Based on what? His own experience from half a world away. And I
thought atheists were generally more objective than that :)
Based on the fact that communism collapsed for economic reasons.
Poland may have been first, but it wasn't so far ahead that we can
say that the others were following
So the collapse of communism in Poland had no effect on the population and
govermments of other countries?
--
Remember that you are an Englishman, and have consequently won first
prize in the lottery of life" -Cecil Rhodes
"For a century and a half now, America and Japan have formed one of the
great and enduring alliances of modern times."
George W Bush -Tokyo, Japan, Feb. 18, 2002
Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the
stones. Psalms 137:9.
"He who rises up to kill us, we will pre-empt it and kill him first,"
- Ariel Sharon 8th May 2002
William Dunn (US fighter ace): "Now, if I had to make the choice of one
fighter aircraft above all the others - one that I'd rather have tied
to the seat of my pants in any tactical situation - it would be,
without any doubt, the world's greatest propeller driven flying machine
- the magnificent and immortal Spitfire."
.
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| User: "Ash" |
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| Title: Re: Pope JPII - A great man? |
07 Apr 2005 12:02:28 PM |
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CQMMAN wrote:
Ash <ashamanic@winterfell73.fsnet.co.uk> wrote:
CQMMAN wrote:
Ash <ashamanic@winterfell73.fsnet.co.uk> wrote:
Perhpas he is saying that the part the Pope played in helping give
strength to the movement in Poland, whether large or small had
little effect or relavance in the rest of Eastern Europe
Based on what? His own experience from half a world away. And I
thought atheists were generally more objective than that :)
Based on the fact that communism collapsed for economic reasons.
Poland may have been first, but it wasn't so far ahead that we can
say that the others were following
So the collapse of communism in Poland had no effect on the population and
govermments of other countries?
Probably not, at least not a major one, it was on it's way out already
and several of these were at pretty much the same time
.
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| User: "CQMMAN" |
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| Title: Re: Pope JPII - A great man? |
07 Apr 2005 12:06:12 PM |
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Ash <ashamanic@winterfell73.fsnet.co.uk> wrote:
CQMMAN wrote:
Ash <ashamanic@winterfell73.fsnet.co.uk> wrote:
CQMMAN wrote:
Ash <ashamanic@winterfell73.fsnet.co.uk> wrote:
Perhpas he is saying that the part the Pope played in helping give
strength to the movement in Poland, whether large or small had
little effect or relavance in the rest of Eastern Europe
Based on what? His own experience from half a world away. And I
thought atheists were generally more objective than that :)
Based on the fact that communism collapsed for economic reasons.
Poland may have been first, but it wasn't so far ahead that we can
say that the others were following
So the collapse of communism in Poland had no effect on the
population and govermments of other countries?
Probably not, at least not a major one, it was on it's way out already
and several of these were at pretty much the same time
Right, so just coincidence then....
--
Remember that you are an Englishman, and have consequently won first
prize in the lottery of life" -Cecil Rhodes
"For a century and a half now, America and Japan have formed one of the
great and enduring alliances of modern times."
George W Bush -Tokyo, Japan, Feb. 18, 2002
Happy shall he be, that taketh and dasheth thy little ones against the
stones. Psalms 137:9.
"He who rises up to kill us, we will pre-empt it and kill him first,"
- Ariel Sharon 8th May 2002
William Dunn (US fighter ace): "Now, if I had to make the choice of one
fighter aircraft above all the others - one that I'd rather have tied
to the seat of my pants in any tactical situation - it would be,
without any doubt, the world's greatest propeller driven flying machine
- the magnificent and immortal Spitfire."
.
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| User: "The Arch Atheist" |
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| Title: Re: Pope JPII - A great man? |
06 Apr 2005 12:32:26 PM |
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On Wed, 6 Apr 2005 08:53:24 -0400, "LinDaKat"
<nobodySPAMTHIS@nowhere.com> wrote:
Same here. And I refuse to watch another minute of CNN and their non-stop
papal bull.
Corpus Necronus Network
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| User: "" |
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| Title: Re: Pope JPII - A great man? |
06 Apr 2005 12:32:16 PM |
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Ash wrote:
Well, this might have been covered, but I killed pope threads last
week
as there were too many of them. Are there dissenters here to hte "The
Pope was a great man" belief? Any people who don't believe he single
handledly brought down communism in Eastern Europe (strange, last
year
it was Reagan who did this)? People who think he did more harm than
good? Others who do think he was a model of someone standing up for
his
beliefs nad a great leader?
"Power tends to corrupt; absolute power corrupts absolutely.
Great men are almost always bad men, even when they exercise
influence and not authority." Lord Acton
If my memory serves me well, Acton was speaking of the
then-current Pope!
E J L
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| User: "Iain" |
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| Title: Re: Pope JPII - A great man? |
07 Apr 2005 08:31:13 AM |
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Ash wrote:
Well, this might have been covered, but I killed pope threads last
week
as there were too many of them. Are there dissenters here to hte "The
Pope was a great man" belief? Any people who don't believe he single
handledly brought down communism in Eastern Europe (strange, last
year
it was Reagan who did this)? People who think he did more harm than
good? Others who do think he was a model of someone standing up for
his
beliefs nad a great leader?
How are you supposed to feel when a daft liar of ill deserved
popularity dies?
~Iain
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| User: "Jez" |
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| Title: Re: Pope JPII - A great man? |
06 Apr 2005 12:19:37 PM |
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Ash wrote:
Well, this might have been covered, but I killed pope threads last week
as there were too many of them. Are there dissenters here to hte "The
Pope was a great man" belief? Any people who don't believe he single
handledly brought down communism in Eastern Europe (strange, last year
it was Reagan who did this)? People who think he did more harm than
good? Others who do think he was a model of someone standing up for his
beliefs nad a great leader?
Pope John Paul II: a political obituary.
http://www.wsws.org/articles/2005/apr2005/pope-a06.shtml
By Marius Heuser and Peter Schwarz
6 April 2005
Amidst the media barrage depicting Pope John Paul II as a contemporary
saint and uncritically presenting the pomp and mysticism of the
Vatican’s funeral rites, almost nothing serious can be found about the
personality of John Paul II or his real role in contemporary history.
The political issues and concerns that dominated the life of Karol
Joseph Wojtyla and consumed his 27-year papacy are barely discussed.
The Roman Catholic Church has been a bedrock of political reaction for
centuries, first as a pillar of the feudal order, when it opposed the
Protestant Reformation, and later as a bulwark of bourgeois rule.
Regardless of the individual qualities of the man who sits at the head
of the Church, his role is intensely political.
In John Paul II, the papacy found a figure who combined deeply
reactionary views—in both politics and religion—with considerable
experience in dealing alike with capitalist states and Stalinist
regimes. He marshalled that experience to play a pivotal role in the
convulsive events of the past quarter century.
Karol Joseph Wojtyla was born on May 18, 1920 in the town of Wadowice in
Poland, the son of a former officer of the Austrian Empire. He lost his
mother at the age of 9 and his father when he was 21. Considered a good
pupil, he began studying philosophy and literature in Krakow in 1938 and
developed a lively interest in theatre. Under the German occupation, he
was forced to carry out hard labour. During this period he decided to
join the priesthood. In 1942 he joined the underground seminary in the
Archdiocese of Krakow.
On November 1, 1946 he was anointed as a priest. He spent the following
two years in Rome, where he attained a doctorate in the theology and
mysticism of St. John of the Cross. He continued his studies in Poland.
Following his graduation, he took up a teaching assignment at the
Catholic University of Lublin in 1954.
On September 28, 1958, he became bishop and in 1964 archbishop of
Krakow. This was a critical year in the life and fortunes of the
Vatican. The death of Pope Pius XII that year brought an end to a reign
that had badly discredited the Church by virtue of the pope’s
collaboration with fascist regimes in Spain, Italy and Germany, and the
Vatican’s refusal to oppose the extermination of European Jews.
Pius XII was succeeded by Pope John XXIII (1958-1963) and Paul VI
(1963-1978), who oversaw far-reaching changes in Catholic ritual and
religious practice, including the conduct of the mass in the vernacular
and other liberal reforms. John XXIII and Paul VI also sought to
disassociate the Church from the anti-Semitism that had been implicit in
Catholic doctrine.
In the post of archbishop of Krakow, Wojtyla came into conflict with the
Polish Stalinist regime. Wojtyla did not question the latter’s political
rule, but insisted that the Catholic Church retain its ideological
influence. Thus, he was able to ensure the building of a church in the
new industrial city of Nova Huta. In 1967, Wojtyla was appointed cardinal.
Wojtyla’s selection as pope on October 16, 1978 created something of a
sensation. For the first time in 455 years, when the Dutchman Adrian VI
occupied the chair of St. Peter for one year, a non-Italian stood at the
head of the Catholic hierarchy. After several drawn contests between two
Italian aspirants, in the eighth ballot, 94 of the 111 cardinals cast
votes in favour of the Polish candidate. At 58 years of age, the new
pope was unusually young.
The political meaning of this decision was unmistakable. Since the end
of the 1960s, both the advanced capitalist nations of Western Europe and
the Stalinist-ruled countries in Eastern Europe had been repeatedly
rocked by violent social conflicts. Wojtyla’s predecessors John XXIII
and Paul VI had sought to respond to the social upsurge with reforms of
the Church’s doctrine and internal regime.
In the first half of the 1960s, the Second Vatican Council had opened
the way for such a course with a certain loosening of Church dogmas and
the acceptance of a greater role for bishops and the laity. John XXIII
had also introduced a more relaxed policy with regard to the Soviet
Union, and his initiative was continued by Paul VI. Both sought to
establish closer cooperation with the Stalinist regimes.
Albino Luciani, who as John Paul I took over from Paul VI in 1978,
wanted to continue this course. But after just 33 days in office, the
new pope was found dead in his bed. The exact circumstances of his death
were never clarified because the Vatican refused to allow an autopsy of
the corpse.
The assumption of the highest Church office by Wojtyla represented an
ideological and political turning point. The new Church head was soon
regarded as a pope of restoration, who turned the Church more openly
into a force of opposition to the modernising spirit of the times. He
promoted a cult of the saints and the Virgin Mary, to which he was
personally dedicated, advocated a rigid social morality, strengthened
the authority of Rome over the dioceses, and disciplined numerous
critical theologians. Politically, the appointment of a Polish pope
represented a challenge to the Moscow leadership under Leonid Brezhnev.
The pope and Solidarity
At the time of the papal election, the conflict between the working
class and the ruling Stalinist regime in Poland had escalated
dramatically. Since the bloodily repressed workers’ rebellion of 1956,
Poland had been wracked by a series of conflicts. In 1970, a strike wave
against price increases forced the resignation of the party and
government leader Wladyslav Gomulka. His successor, Edward Gierek, had
to withdraw the price increases.
In 1976, Gierek sought again to increase prices, resulting in strikes,
mass demonstrations and struggles on the barricades. In the ensuing
years, the Committee for the Defence of Workers and founding committees
of independent trade unions were formed, and in 1980—after a renewed
strike wave against price increases—these organisations coalesced to
become the trade union Solidarity, which won the following of millions
of workers.
The emergence of a powerful workers movement in Poland was followed with
great concern by governments East and West. The spread of the Polish
movement to the Soviet Union and other Eastern European countries would
have not only threatened Stalinist rule, but also inspired new militant
struggles by workers in the West. A wave of such struggles had been
curbed in the mid-1970s by the united efforts of the Social Democratic
and trade union bureaucracies.
Characteristically, the German chancellor, Helmut Schmidt, a Social
Democrat, consistently supported the government of Gierek against the
Polish workers. Schmidt even maintained a personal friendship with Gierek.
John Paul II was quite conscious of the danger of violent revolution in
Poland and Eastern Europe. He sought to insure that Stalinist rule was
overturned from the right, not the left, by supporting a pro-imperialist
leadership within the Polish working class. In this effort, he was aided
not only by the CIA, but also the various AFL-CIO foreign operations
that were allied with the CIA and the US State Department.
The hostility of John Paul II and the Church to Stalinism is equated by
the media with devotion to democracy. This is a grotesque distortion.
The pope presided over an institution that had been the most
intransigent opponent of democracy for over 500 years, going all the way
back to the emergence of Protestantism, when the Catholic Church sought
to uphold the power and wealth of the clergy as a feudal estate.
The Church’s animus toward Stalinism was not due to the antidemocratic,
caste-like rule of the Stalinist bureaucracy as such—all that was
perfectly in keeping with the inner operations of the Church itself as
an institution. The Church hierarchy itself is a caste, which originated
in pre-capitalist society and is now rooted in capitalist social relations.
The Catholic Church is, after all, the largest single property owner in
the world. Hence the Church supported bloody Latin American
dictatorships, which upheld capitalist property, but opposed Stalinist
regimes in the USSR and Eastern Europe that were based on nationalized
property.
On this fundamentally reactionary basis, the Catholic Church openly
sided with Solidarity. Less than eight months after his appointment, the
new pope undertook his first “pilgrim’s journey” to Poland, followed by
additional visits in 1983 and 1987. In January 1980, John Paul II
granted an audience to a delegation of Solidarity members led by Lech
Walesa. Drawing from different sources, the Vatican gathered at least
$50 million to support the trade union in the ensuing years.
The aim of the Vatican, however, was not to support the social demands
of the workers. Rather, it sought to keep the movement under the
influence of reactionary Catholic ideology and Polish nationalism, and
ensure that it did not develop into an international challenge to the
existing order. The Catholic hierarchy, whose experience in defending
authority and order spanned one-and-a-half millennia, was highly aware
that a popular movement such as that which had developed in Poland could
not be tamed through passive means, but had to be actively influenced
and turned in a different direction.
The appointment of a Polish pope already signified a stabilization of
Catholicism in Poland. Wojtyla never tired of referring to his Polish
roots, flattering Polish nationalism and presenting Poland as the
Christian nation. Before a jubilant crowd at Warsaw’s Victory Square in
June 1979, he praised the contribution made by “the Polish nation to the
development of humanity and mankind,” which could be understood and
appreciated, he said, only through Christ. His lecture culminated in the
sentence, “There can be no just Europe without an independent Poland on
the map of Europe!”
Without the pope’s intervention in Poland, events would hardly have
taken the disastrous course that ultimately led to mass unemployment and
bitter poverty for Polish workers. Initially, there existed not only
Catholic, but also strong secular and socialistic tendencies in the
Solidarity movement. These, however, lacked an effective perspective for
opposing the Stalinist regime.
The intervention of the Vatican contributed substantially towards
bringing the movement under the control of the Catholic-nationalist wing
around Lech Walesa—a man who combined his reputation as a militant
workers leader at the Lenin Shipyard with a large dose of bigoted
Catholicism. Walesa himself has openly acknowledged the role of the
pope. In 1989, he declared: “The existence of the trade union
Solidarnosc and myself would have been inconceivable without the figure
of this great Pole and great man, John Paul II.”
While the pope gave political and financial support to Solidarity, he
sought to hold it back from an open confrontation with the regime. Time
and time again he called for moderation and restraint. As confrontations
with the government became more violent, Solidarity increasingly
intervened to restrain and control the workers.
Walesa constantly stressed that Solidarity was not striving for power:
“We do not want to govern, but rather seek acknowledgment by the
government, and we want to check them when they are governing to make
sure they do a good job.” Wojciech Jaruzelski, who in December 1981
proclaimed martial law and arrested thousands of workers and Solidarity
leaders, later openly acknowledged the restraint shown by the pope. In a
television interview on the occasion of the death of the pope, he said:
“He refrained from inciting social emotions at that time.”
Later, the pope appeared increasingly worried about the speed with
which, after the collapse of the Stalinist regime, Solidarity
discredited itself before the working class as its leaders came to power
and oversaw the reintroduction of capitalism. John Paul II feared, with
some justification, that the influence of the Catholic Church could
suffer as a result, and that the new order would be endangered.
In visits to the country in 1991 and 1993, he warned against simply
copying Western capitalism. During his last journey to Poland in 2003,
he was even more blunt. When one forgets the price that was paid for
liberty, he said, one is not far from “anarchy.” He lectured the
Solidarity movement to keep out of politics, and pointed to glaring
injustices in Poland—wages not paid, small businesses wiped out, workers
denied holidays and time with their families.
John Paul II and US policy toward the Soviet Union
The decision by the Catholic Church to name a Polish pope was closely
connected with a change of course in American foreign policy towards the
Soviet Union. Under President Jimmy Carter and, even more openly, under
his successor Ronald Reagan, détente gave way to confrontation.
As archbishop of Krakow, Wojtyla had already maintained an intensive
exchange of letters with Polish-born Zbigniew Brzezinski, who took over
as national security advisor during the Carter administration.
Brzezinski, who had attended the funeral of Wojtyla’s predecessor as the
official American representative, stayed in Rome for the entire period
of the 1978 papal election that placed Wojtyla at the head of the Church.
This cooperation was intensified under the presidency of Reagan. The
American ambassador to the Vatican at the time, James Nicholson, speaks
of a “strategic alliance” between Washington and the Vatican against the
Soviet Union. According to information gathered by the journalists Carl
Bernstein and Marco Politi, who wrote a book on the secret diplomacy of
the Vatican, CIA Director William Casey and Deputy CIA Director Vernon
Walters held regular confidential discussions with the pope starting in
1981. The main topic was CIA financial and logistic support for Solidarity.
The ruling bureaucracy in Moscow reacted to the combination of
intensified external pressure and growing internal social pressures by
initiating the policy of capitalist restoration. The ascendancy of
Mikhail Gorbachev to the head of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union
had its origins—as ironic as this may seem—in the same objective changes
that brought Wojtyla to the holy seat in Rome. The events in Poland had
deeply shaken the Kremlin bureaucracy. In the end, it sought to prevent
a similar development in the Soviet Union by creating new bases for its
rule through the introduction of capitalist property. This was the
essential significance of Gorbachev’s perestroika.
In December 1989, Gorbachev became the first and only secretary general
of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union to have an audience in the
Vatican. Three years later, Gorbachev praised the role of the pope with
the words: “Everything that happened in these years in Eastern Europe
would have been impossible without the presence of this pope.”
The pope and South America
While John Paul II draped his interventions in Poland and Eastern Europe
in the garb of “liberty” and “independence,” the reactionary essence of
his political orientation was revealed openly in South America. There he
sided with the ruling elites and disciplined so-called “liberation
theologians” who had lined up with the oppressed in their struggles
against right-wing military dictatorships.
In the course of his first visit to Nicaragua in 1983, John Paul II
publicly reprimanded the priest Ernesto Cardenal who, together with two
other priests, held ministerial posts in the Sandinista government. In
1995, during another visit to Nicaragua, the pope condemned the Iglesia
Popular (People’s Church) and what he called the mistaken ecumenism “of
Christians engaged in the revolutionary process.” At the same time, he
elevated the right-wing archbishop and bitter opponent of the
Sandinistas, Miguel Obando y Bravo, to the post of cardinal.
Numerous liberation theologians were sacked from their posts by John
Paul II and replaced by conservative bishops or priests. Writes François
Houtard in Le Monde Diplomatique: “Grass roots church groups which had
come into being in South America characterised by autonomy and the
protection of the interests of the poor were isolated and even destroyed
in some cases. Priests who sided with them were removed and forbidden
access to community facilities, and occasionally new groups were set up
under the same name...”
At the same time, supporters of right-wing dictatorships ascended to the
highest offices of the Church. The papal nuncio to the Argentine
military dictatorship, Pio Laghi, and the nuncio to the Chilean military
dictatorship, Angelo Sodano, are today both cardinals.
Sodano had praised Pinochet’s despotic and murderous rule in Chile with
the words: “Masterpieces can also have small errors. I would advise you
not to dwell on the errors of the painting, but concentrate on the
marvellous general impression.” When an arrest warrant for Pinochet was
issued in 1998 while the former dictator was in London, the pope himself
publicly supported the Chilean fascist general.
The beatifications of Pope Pius IX, an avowed anti-Semite, Pope Pius
XII, who had collaborated with the Nazis and the Mussolini regime, and
Cardinal Stepniak, who was close to the fascist regime in Croatia during
the Second World War, are further typical expressions of the right-wing
convictions of John Paul II.
Conservative Church policies
In his Church policies, John Paul II was, even from the standpoint of
the extremely conservative doctrines of the Catholic Church, a
reactionary. He set out to reverse the spirit, if not entirely the
letter, of the reforms initiated by the Second Vatican Council in the 1960s.
First, there is his cult of the Madonna and the saints. With 473
beatifications, he has created more than twice as many new saints as his
predecessors over the preceding 400 years.
The encyclical Evangelium Vitae, which dictates sexual mores, rejects
not only abortion, but also any form of contraception. Every sexual act
not aimed at reproduction is considered to be immoral. Even condoms are
condemned—a policy that is all the more socially destructive and
inhumane given the devastating AIDS epidemic in Africa and many other
parts of the world. In Germany, against strong resistance by bishops and
Church members, the pope insisted that the Church withdraw from
committees that advise pregnant women as part of the country’s framework
for legal abortion.
The conservative personnel policy of the pope has also repeatedly led to
conflicts. He sparked controversy by imposing conservative bishops on
several dioceses, e.g., Wolfgang Haas in Chur, Joachim Meisner in
Cologne, Hans Hermann Gröer in Vienna, and Kurt Krenn in St. Pölten.
Critical theologians such as Leonardo Boff, Eugen Drewermann, Hans Küng
and Tissa Balasuriya have been gagged with prohibitions banning them
from publishing their works and preventing them from teaching.
The Swiss theologian Hans Küng, who was banned from teaching in the
Church following an article in 1980 critical of the pope, describes the
internal atmosphere of the Church and the role of John Paul II as
follows: “[The pope is] the authority behind an inflationary number of
beatifications, who, at the same time, with dictatorial power directs
his inquisition against unpopular theologians, priests, monks and
bishops; above all, believers distinguished by critical thinking and
energetic reform are persecuted in inquisitorial fashion. Just as Pius
XII persecuted the most important theologians of his time (Chenu,
Congar, de Lubac, Rahner, Teilhard de Chardin), so too has John Paul II
(and his grand inquisitor Ratzinger) persecuted Schillebeeckx,
Balasuriya, Boff, Bulányi, Curran as well as Bishop Gaillot (Evreux) and
Archbishop Hunthausen (Seattle). The consequence: a Church of
surveillance, in which denunciation, fear and lack of liberty are
widespread. The bishops regard themselves as Roman governors instead of
the servants of churchgoers, the theologians write in a conformist
manner—or not at all.”
While critical voices have been silenced, the fundamentalist and
strictly hierarchically organized Opus Dei order has been able to extend
its influence in the Church hierarchy. A number of its members have been
appointed bishops and cardinals. The order now commands considerable
influence in the Curia, the central administration of the Catholic
Church, and could play a significant role in the selection of the next pope.
Opus Dei was founded in 1928 by the Jesuit Josemaria Escrivá in Madrid.
With a worldwide membership of 80,000 the order is relatively small. It
flourished during Franco’s rule in fascist Spain, where Opus Dei
representatives occupied up to 10 ministerial posts.
Escrivá, who was beatified by John Paul II in 2002, only 27 years after
its death, once described Hitler as the “saviour of the Spanish Church.”
The order is organized along the lines of a secret society, with its own
code of conduct that extends from a vow of silence to frequent praying
and self-castigation with a scourge and belt. It propagates a cult of
masculinity and leadership, defining women as “inferior” and demanding
their subordination and strict obedience.
In contrast to many of his predecessors, John Paul II pursued an open
policy with regard to other religions. He was the first pope to visit a
Protestant church (1983), a synagogue (1986) and a mosque (2001). Every
year since 1986 a world prayer meeting has taken place at which
different religions pray together. In 2000, the pope visited the
Holocaust memorial in Israel and asked pardon for the sins committed by
Christians in the course of Church history—without repudiating Pope Pius
XII’s silence on the Holocaust.
These outward displays of tolerance, which arose in the first place from
the need to strengthen religion as a pillar of a crisis-ridden bourgeois
society, stand in stark contrast to the intolerance exhibited by John
Paul II in his teachings. Just two years ago, the pope issued a ban
prohibiting the taking of communion jointly with other denominations,
and the statement “Dominus Jesus” supported by the pope denies that the
reformist church is a church, while criticising other religions for
their substantial defects.
Crisis of the Church
Notwithstanding his right-wing views, John Paul II was always deeply
conscious that the Church can fulfil its function as a prop of the
established order only if it postures as a protector of the oppressed.
He wrote numerous texts on Catholic social doctrine in which he
denounced capitalist excesses and social evils. On a journey to Cuba, he
sharply criticised neo-liberalism and its effects.
This criticism was in no way directed against the capitalist order
itself. Since socialism first emerged in the late nineteenth century as
a significant force in the working class, the Catholic Church has
attempted to counter its influence by articulating a social doctrine
that, while condemning socialist revolution, makes limited criticisms of
capitalism and speaks sympathetically about the plight of workers and
poor people. John Paul II worked very much within that tradition. Thus,
he rejected socialism in principle as an atheist doctrine in the
Encyclical “Centesimus Annus.”
The clear position taken by the pope against the first and second Iraq
wars must be seen in this connection. With its
one-and-a-half-thousand-year-old tradition, the Catholic hierarchy
thinks in longer time spans than bourgeois politicians fixated on the
short term. The Vatican is aware that the ruthless conduct of the US in
the Middle East threatens in the long-run to destabilise the entire
capitalist world order—including the Catholic Church.
Shortly before the outbreak of the second Iraq war, the pope received
the Iraqi vice prime minister, Tariq Aziz, a Christian, and sent envoys
to Washington and Baghdad in an attempt to prevent the war. He condemned
it with the words: “The war of the strong against the weak has more than
ever before revealed the deep divisions between rich and poor.”
John Paul II’s rhetoric of peace and social harmony, which contrasts
starkly with his ideology and politics, together with his more than 100
trips abroad—undertaken with great care for their propagandistic
value—have played a role in the expansion of the number of Catholics
during his term. Membership of the Catholic Church is now given as over
a billion, of which half live in South and North America.
These figures cannot, however, conceal the immense crisis in which the
Church finds itself. The growth in Church membership has not kept pace
with the overall growth of population. Church membership as a proportion
of the population is growing only in areas where Catholics are a small
minority, including Africa and parts of Asia. In proportionate terms, it
is stagnant in Latin America and declining in Europe and North America.
In Latin America it is widely noted that the Catholic Church is losing
ground to various evangelical Protestant groups.
Notwithstanding the efforts of the media to virtually canonize John Paul
II, the Church’s grip on broad masses of people continues to decline,
and the Catholic clergy remains badly discredited, even among those who
consider themselves Catholics. The loss of active and committed
parishioners is reflected in a financial crisis facing the Church in the
number of countries. In the US, Catholic schools are being closed down
in some major cities, including Detroit.
This crisis has been intensified by the recent sexual abuse scandals
involving priests and Church officials. It is now clear that John Paul
II sought to conceal widespread sexual predations against children that
occurred during his reign.
His role in covering up these abuses in the American, Irish, Austrian
and other Churches, and then downplaying their significance once they
were disclosed, underscores the hypocrisy of the Vatican on questions of
sexual mores. It stands in sharp contrast to the Church’s incessant
moralizing when it comes to the normal sexual practices of ordinary
people, and underscores that the primary concern of John Paul II and the
Vatican as a whole was to defend the clerical caste and its power,
authority and immunity from scrutiny.
John Paul II was a charismatic figure, who was able to somewhat offset
the protracted decline in mass support for the Church and hold the
institution together. His departure will intensify the internal and
external pressures on this ancient, sclerotic and reactionary
institution. The absurd lengths to which the media is going to use John
Paul II’s death to promote the Church is itself a contradictory
expression of the crisis of that institution, and the bourgeois order
which it defends.
--
Jez, MBA.,
Country Dancing and Advanced Astrology, UBS.
'Realism is seductive because once you have accepted the reasonable
notion that you should base your actions on reality, you are too often
led to accept, without much questioning, someone else's version of what
that reality is. It is a crucial act of independent thinking to be
skeptical of someone else's description of reality.'-
Howard Zinn
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| User: "Arturo Magidin" |
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| Title: Re: Pope JPII - A great man? |
06 Apr 2005 12:47:53 PM |
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In article <d30jq0$76v$1@newsg1.svr.pol.co.uk>
Ash wrote:
Well, this might have been covered, but I killed pope threads last week
as there were too many of them. Are there dissenters here to hte "The
Pope was a great man" belief? Any people who don't believe he single
handledly brought down communism in Eastern Europe (strange, last year
it was Reagan who did this)? People who think he did more harm than
good? Others who do think he was a model of someone standing up for his
beliefs nad a great leader?
I certainly do not.
This Pope was a great champion of religious liberty... for catholics
and for catholics only. Just as he was vigorously demanding that the
laws of countries in which catholics are a minority not reflect the
religious inclination of the majority (and leave enough room for
"true" religious liberty), he was just as vigorous in demanding that
countries in which catholics ->are<- a majority (most notably Latin
America) make their laws reflect this fact. He constantly called for
Latin American countries to make it illegal for "sects" (the catholic
church's name for any protestant denomination) to proselitize in their
territory, while also demanding the right for the church to
proselitize in nominally secular public schools.
He glorified religious intolerance through many of those he pushed for
canonization, beatification, or even just venerable status: Mother
Theresa was beatified despite her discriminatory practices against
non-catholics. Pius IX was beatified, despite his role in the
kindapping and forced baptism of italian jewish children (by Church
law, a catholic could not be raised by jews, even if they were his
parents); he also named Pius XII (who signed the Conrcordat with
Hitler and was notoriously silent during WW II) "venerable". He
canonized 27 cristeros in Mexico, members of a rebel group from the
early 20th century who used to kidnap public school teachers and cut
off their ears (when not lynching them) for daring to teach an
education program devoid of religion. He canonized Father Pro, who was
a violent oppositor to the liberalization (or pehaps,
less-medievalization) of Vatican II . He also beatified and founder of
Opus Dei and strengthened that intolerant organization.
Even his alleged acts of "contrition" were hypocritical: his much
publicized "apology" during the millenium boils down to asking that,
if by chance in its zeal the Church caused some harm to someone else,
obviously completely unintended, then it was certainly not their
intention and he hopes that God will forgive ->the Church<- for it.
His alleged role in the fall of communist eastern Europe is a joke,
about as much as Reagan. Communism was doomed for economic reasons as
soon as Stalin stopped Lenin's economic reform program (cf. China). It
was a matter of time, and the best that can be said of Reagan is that
he hastened it somewhat.
He was a reactionary, divisive, intolerant religious bigot.
--
======================================================================
"It's not denial. I'm just very selective about
what I accept as reality."
--- Calvin ("Calvin and Hobbes")
======================================================================
Arturo Magidin
magidin@math.berkeley.edu
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| User: "Walter Bushell" |
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| Title: Re: Pope JPII - A great man? |
14 Apr 2005 11:35:50 AM |
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In article <d317c9$940$1@agate.berkeley.edu>,
(Arturo Magidin) wrote:
<snip>
His alleged role in the fall of communist eastern Europe is a joke,
about as much as Reagan. Communism was doomed for economic reasons as
soon as Stalin stopped Lenin's economic reform program (cf. China). It
was a matter of time, and the best that can be said of Reagan is that
he hastened it somewhat.
<snip>
Regan's arms build up, certainly gave Russian Communism a push, as they
felt they had to match it.
--
Guns don't kill people; automobiles kill people.
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| User: "Arturo Magidin" |
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| Title: Re: Pope JPII - A great man? |
14 Apr 2005 11:52:05 AM |
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In article <proto-AE107E.12355014042005@reader1.panix.com>,
Walter Bushell <proto@panix.com> wrote:
In article <d317c9$940$1@agate.berkeley.edu>,
magidin@math.berkeley.edu (Arturo Magidin) wrote:
<snip>
His alleged role in the fall of communist eastern Europe is a joke,
about as much as Reagan. Communism was doomed for economic reasons as
soon as Stalin stopped Lenin's economic reform program (cf. China). It
was a matter of time, and the best that can be said of Reagan is that
he hastened it somewhat.
<snip>
Regan's arms build up, certainly gave Russian Communism a push, as they
felt they had to match it.
Yes; but the Soviet Union was already on the brink of economic
disaster. There was nothing short of a
Perestroika[restructuring]-style reform that would have saved it. And
while it is possible we could still have a communist Soviet Union with
China-like economic reform (had Gorbachev attempted only the economic
reform rather than trying both an economic and a political
liberalization), it would have nonetheless ended the political
dominance of the USSR over Eastern Europe.
And these problems did not even stem from the arms race in the 60s and
70s; they had their roots in Stalin, and in Kruschev's failed attempt
at reform. It was Stalin and Brezhnev that killed russian communism,
not Reagan and not the Pope.
--
======================================================================
"It's not denial. I'm just very selective about
what I accept as reality."
--- Calvin ("Calvin and Hobbes")
======================================================================
Arturo Magidin
magidin@math.berkeley.edu
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| User: "Mephisto" |
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| Title: Re: Pope JPII - A great man? |
06 Apr 2005 01:55:19 PM |
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On Wed, 06 Apr 2005 13:14:02 +0100, Ash
<ashamanic@winterfell73.fsnet.co.uk> wrote:
Well, this might have been covered, but I killed pope threads last week
as there were too many of them. Are there dissenters here to hte "The
Pope was a great man" belief? Any people who don't believe he single
handledly brought down communism in Eastern Europe (strange, last year
it was Reagan who did this)? People who think he did more harm than
good? Others who do think he was a model of someone standing up for his
beliefs nad a great leader?
It's just like the whole circus that kicked off after Nixon died.
Suddenly everyone was praising him as a 'great man', even though
everyone knew that he was a miserable, lying crook with psychotic
tendencies. The Pope is dead and we are all expected to praise him as
a great and good individual, ignoring the bigotry and the misery that
he supported and spread during his life. The Catholic Church is one of
the most evil and destructive organizations that has ever existed and
he did absolutely nothing to change that.
He was a sexist homphobe who appeared not to care about the misery the
Catholic Church were causing in places like Africa. He had nothing
whatsoever to do with the fall of communism - that's just laughable
Catholic arrogance. He frequently excommunicated anyone in the Church
who did not agree with his conservative views, and threatened many
more with excommunication to bring them into line. He believed in the
total control of the Church, and did not tolerate differing views or
lifestyles.
Great man? I don't fucking think so...
Mephisto
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| User: "duke" |
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| Title: Re: Pope JPII - A great man? |
06 Apr 2005 05:43:02 PM |
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On Wed, 06 Apr 2005 13:14:02 +0100, Ash <ashamanic@winterfell73.fsnet.co.uk>
wrote:
Well, this might have been covered, but I killed pope threads last week
as there were too many of them. Are there dissenters here to hte "The
Pope was a great man" belief? Any people who don't believe he single
handledly brought down communism in Eastern Europe (strange, last year
it was Reagan who did this)? People who think he did more harm than
good? Others who do think he was a model of someone standing up for his
beliefs nad a great leader?
The way I see it, ash, you're an idiot. If it were left up to you, hitler would
be running Europe.
duke
*****
"The Mass is the most perfect form of Prayer."
Pope Paul VI
*****
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| User: "Mephisto" |
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| Title: Re: Pope JPII - A great man? |
07 Apr 2005 06:25:53 AM |
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On Wed, 06 Apr 2005 17:43:02 -0500, duke <duckgumbo32@cox.net> wrote:
On Wed, 06 Apr 2005 13:14:02 +0100, Ash <ashamanic@winterfell73.fsnet.co.uk>
wrote:
Well, this might have been covered, but I killed pope threads last week
as there were too many of them. Are there dissenters here to hte "The
Pope was a great man" belief? Any people who don't believe he single
handledly brought down communism in Eastern Europe (strange, last year
it was Reagan who did this)? People who think he did more harm than
good? Others who do think he was a model of someone standing up for his
beliefs nad a great leader?
The way I see it, ash, you're an idiot. If it were left up to you, hitler would
be running Europe.
I hate to break it to you duckface, but Hitler's dead. Has been for
some time. Perhaps you should pay a little more attention to what your
history teacher tells you, rather than sitting on the back row picking
your nose.
Mephisto
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| User: "Ash" |
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| Title: Re: Pope JPII - A great man? |
07 Apr 2005 06:35:18 AM |
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Mephisto wrote:
On Wed, 06 Apr 2005 17:43:02 -0500, duke <duckgumbo32@cox.net> wrote:
On Wed, 06 Apr 2005 13:14:02 +0100, Ash <ashamanic@winterfell73.fsnet.co.uk>
wrote:
Well, this might have been covered, but I killed pope threads last week
as there were too many of them. Are there dissenters here to hte "The
Pope was a great man" belief? Any people who don't believe he single
handledly brought down communism in Eastern Europe (strange, last year
it was Reagan who did this)? People who think he did more harm than
good? Others who do think he was a model of someone standing up for his
beliefs nad a great leader?
The way I see it, ash, you're an idiot. If it were left up to you, hitler would
be running Europe.
I hate to break it to you duckface, but Hitler's dead. Has been for
some time. Perhaps you should pay a little more attention to what your
history teacher tells you, rather than sitting on the back row picking
your nose.
Piggybacking as Puke is of course killfilled
Odd you say that as if it was up to the Catholic church, he wold have
been running Europe, something JPII was quite OK with
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| User: "TCS" |
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| Title: Re: Pope JPII - A great man? |
06 Apr 2005 11:00:03 AM |
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On Wed, 06 Apr 2005 13:14:02 +0100, Ash <ashamanic@winterfell73.fsnet.co.uk> wrote:
Well, this might have been covered, but I killed pope threads last week
as there were too many of them. Are there dissenters here to hte "The
Pope was a great man" belief? Any people who don't believe he single
handledly brought down communism in Eastern Europe (strange, last year
I have no idea where that belief came from. JPII did absolutely nothing
to affect the USSR. They couldn't have cared less about anything he
had to say.
it was Reagan who did this)? People who think he did more harm than
good? Others who do think he was a model of someone standing up for his
beliefs nad a great leader?
Can anybody name anything JPII did that helped humanity? One single thing?
All I see is that he perpetuated superstition and perpetuated breeding to
starvation, doing everything in his power to block the advancement of
women's rights.
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