| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"Bill M" |
| Date: |
08 Oct 2006 02:21:17 PM |
| Object: |
POWERFUL EVIDENCE OF NO GODS |
Powerful evidence that no REAL gods exist.
A primary one is that there are thousands of different gods and god beliefs.
Any REAL god would make sure everyone is abundantly clear, directly from his
heaven, that he is the real god and all the others are fakes. He would use
his unlimited power to expose and eliminate the fakes.
This all powerful creator, all loving and caring intelligent designer, would
not create Plagues, Tsunamis, Tornadoes, Volcanic Eruptions, Earth Quakes,
Wars, Cancers and hundreds of debilitating diseases, serious body
malfunctions and starvation all of which punish people indiscriminately
regardless of their religious beliefs. If he did he would not be an all
loving all caring god but a brutal malevolent creature or nothing at all.
There are 12,000 known diseases that torture and kill man. The reality is
that no all loving and all powerful god would create or permit these
diseases to punish men of all religious persuasion and particularly totally
INNOCENT CHILDREN.
There is a similar quantity of diseases that punish animals. Animals don't
sin. Why are they being punished???
Why Is man born helpless and required to be nurtured, protected and trained
by adult parents for up to twenty years and then experience a punishing
physical and mental deterioration for approximately twenty years before
death? Supposedly they then experience a fantastic existence in a Heaven (or
punishment in Hell) for eternity!
If God exists, either He can do nothing to stop the most
egregious calamities, or he just does not care to. God, therefore, is either
impotent or evil.
This is all so illogical and ridiculous that it has to be the mythical
creation of men.
Religion is things hoped for but not yet seen or proven. Science is things
seen and proven but not necessarily hoped for.
The objective evidence is that no gods created man but quite the opposite;
that man created imaginary gods! (thousands of them!)
.
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| User: "Kate" |
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| Title: Re: POWERFUL EVIDENCE OF NO GODS |
12 Oct 2006 10:34:37 PM |
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It depends on which religion in the Bible after Adam and Eve were
expelled from paradise and God "cursed the Earth" some argue this means
that natural disasters, diseases and the reduced life span that occured
since Adam. We also have "Dominion" over the Earth and all things in it
and have every right to exploit it for our needs. Enviromental
Degradation we cause can be part of the above curse. Simply the Earth
is not friendly because God in His divine punishment made it so.
And we have proof of God look at the heavens on a clear night in the
countryside there is the Universe and all creatiion I for one don't
NEED more proof than that.
Bill M wrote:
Powerful evidence that no REAL gods exist.
A primary one is that there are thousands of different gods and god beliefs.
Any REAL god would make sure everyone is abundantly clear, directly from his
heaven, that he is the real god and all the others are fakes. He would use
his unlimited power to expose and eliminate the fakes.
This all powerful creator, all loving and caring intelligent designer, would
not create Plagues, Tsunamis, Tornadoes, Volcanic Eruptions, Earth Quakes,
Wars, Cancers and hundreds of debilitating diseases, serious body
malfunctions and starvation all of which punish people indiscriminately
regardless of their religious beliefs. If he did he would not be an all
loving all caring god but a brutal malevolent creature or nothing at all.
There are 12,000 known diseases that torture and kill man. The reality is
that no all loving and all powerful god would create or permit these
diseases to punish men of all religious persuasion and particularly totally
INNOCENT CHILDREN.
There is a similar quantity of diseases that punish animals. Animals don't
sin. Why are they being punished???
Why Is man born helpless and required to be nurtured, protected and trained
by adult parents for up to twenty years and then experience a punishing
physical and mental deterioration for approximately twenty years before
death? Supposedly they then experience a fantastic existence in a Heaven (or
punishment in Hell) for eternity!
If God exists, either He can do nothing to stop the most
egregious calamities, or he just does not care to. God, therefore, is either
impotent or evil.
This is all so illogical and ridiculous that it has to be the mythical
creation of men.
Religion is things hoped for but not yet seen or proven. Science is things
seen and proven but not necessarily hoped for.
The objective evidence is that no gods created man but quite the opposite;
that man created imaginary gods! (thousands of them!)
.
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| User: "Bill M" |
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| Title: Re: POWERFUL EVIDENCE OF NO GODS |
13 Oct 2006 07:13:15 PM |
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"Kate" <katecoleman_fl@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1160710477.637847.67860@k70g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
It depends on which religion in the Bible after Adam and Eve were
expelled from paradise and God "cursed the Earth" some argue this means
that natural disasters, diseases and the reduced life span that occured
since Adam. We also have "Dominion" over the Earth and all things in it
and have every right to exploit it for our needs. Enviromental
Degradation we cause can be part of the above curse. Simply the Earth
is not friendly because God in His divine punishment made it so.
And we have proof of God look at the heavens on a clear night in the
countryside there is the Universe and all creatiion I for one don't
NEED more proof than that.
Dream on!
Powerful evidence that no REAL gods exist.
A primary one is that there are thousands of different gods and god beliefs.
Any REAL god would make sure everyone is abundantly clear, directly from his
heaven, that he is the real god and all the others are fakes. He would use
his unlimited power to expose and eliminate the fakes.
This all powerful creator, all loving and caring intelligent designer, would
not create Plagues, Tsunamis, Tornadoes, Volcanic Eruptions, Earth Quakes,
Wars, Cancers and hundreds of debilitating diseases, serious body
malfunctions and starvation all of which punish people indiscriminately
regardless of their religious beliefs. If he did he would not be an all
loving all caring god but a brutal malevolent creature or nothing at all.
There are 12,000 known diseases that torture and kill man. The reality is
that no all loving and all powerful god would create or permit these
diseases to punish men of all religious persuasion and particularly totally
INNOCENT CHILDREN.
There is a similar quantity of diseases that punish animals. Animals don't
sin. Why are they being punished???
Why Is man born helpless and required to be nurtured, protected and trained
by adult parents for up to twenty years and then experience a punishing
physical and mental deterioration for approximately twenty years before
death.
If God exists, either he can do nothing to stop the most
egregious calamities, or he just does not care. God, therefore, is either
impotent or evil.
This is all so illogical and ridiculous that it has to be the mythical
creation of men.
Religion is things hoped for but not yet seen or proven. Science is things
seen and proven but not necessarily hoped for.
The objective evidence is that no gods created man but quite the opposite;
that man created imaginary gods! (thousands of them!)
.
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| User: "Pastor Frank" |
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| Title: Re: POWERFUL EVIDENCE OF NO GODS |
14 Oct 2006 07:29:33 PM |
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"Bill M" <wmech@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:rYVXg.63303$vX5.46546@bignews8.bellsouth.net...
"Kate" <katecoleman_fl@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1160710477.637847.67860@k70g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
It depends on which religion in the Bible after Adam and Eve were
expelled from paradise and God "cursed the Earth" some argue this means
that natural disasters, diseases and the reduced life span that occured
since Adam. We also have "Dominion" over the Earth and all things in it
and have every right to exploit it for our needs. Enviromental
Degradation we cause can be part of the above curse. Simply the Earth
is not friendly because God in His divine punishment made it so.
And we have proof of God look at the heavens on a clear night in the
countryside there is the Universe and all creatiion I for one don't
NEED more proof than that.
Dream on!
Powerful evidence that no REAL gods exist.
Tell us, how you know the difference between a REAL god and an UNREAL
one?
.
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| User: "Bill M" |
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| Title: Re: POWERFUL EVIDENCE OF NO GODS |
15 Oct 2006 07:38:09 PM |
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"Pastor Frank" <PastorFrank@christfirst.org> wrote in message
news:bf55a$45326fe5$d1d89a65$1682@PRIMUS.CA...
"Bill M" <wmech@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:rYVXg.63303$vX5.46546@bignews8.bellsouth.net...
"Kate" <katecoleman_fl@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:1160710477.637847.67860@k70g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
It depends on which religion in the Bible after Adam and Eve were
expelled from paradise and God "cursed the Earth" some argue this means
that natural disasters, diseases and the reduced life span that occured
since Adam. We also have "Dominion" over the Earth and all things in it
and have every right to exploit it for our needs. Enviromental
Degradation we cause can be part of the above curse. Simply the Earth
is not friendly because God in His divine punishment made it so.
And we have proof of God look at the heavens on a clear night in the
countryside there is the Universe and all creatiion I for one don't
NEED more proof than that.
Dream on!
Powerful evidence that no REAL gods exist.
Tell us, how you know the difference between a REAL god and an UNREAL
one?
I have never seen or heard a REAL god so I can't very well describe it. Can
you provide us
objective verifiable evidence and a description of a real god? REAL
evidence - not just your imagination!
.
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| User: "Pastor Frank" |
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| Title: Re: POWERFUL EVIDENCE OF NO GODS |
16 Oct 2006 11:38:29 AM |
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"Bill M" <wmech@bellsouth.net> wrote in message
news:IvAYg.27683$vi3.448@bignews3.bellsouth.net...
I have never seen or heard a REAL god so I can't very well describe it.
Can you provide us
objective verifiable evidence and a description of a real god? REAL
evidence - not just your imagination!
You don't answer the question: How do you distinguish a "REAL" God from
and unreal one? If you can't, then tell us how do you know, that you have
never seen a "REAL" God nor heard from such a one? Or is never seeing nor
hearing a REAL God that just dogma to you, which you parrot thoughtlessly?
Since our Christian "God is love" (1 John 4:8,16) and dwells in the
heart of man, you must have seen God in action numerous times. Either that,
or you are deaf and blind.
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| User: "MarkA" |
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| Title: Re: POWERFUL EVIDENCE OF NO GODS |
10 Oct 2006 10:07:50 PM |
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On Sun, 08 Oct 2006 15:21:17 -0400, Bill M wrote:
Powerful evidence that no REAL gods exist.
A primary one is that there are thousands of different gods and god
beliefs. Any REAL god would make sure everyone is abundantly clear,
directly from his heaven, that he is the real god and all the others are
fakes. He would use his unlimited power to expose and eliminate the
fakes.
This all powerful creator, all loving and caring intelligent designer,
would not create Plagues, Tsunamis, Tornadoes, Volcanic Eruptions, Earth
Quakes, Wars, Cancers and hundreds of debilitating diseases, serious body
malfunctions and starvation all of which punish people indiscriminately
regardless of their religious beliefs. If he did he would not be an all
loving all caring god but a brutal malevolent creature or nothing at all.
There are 12,000 known diseases that torture and kill man. The reality is
that no all loving and all powerful god would create or permit these
diseases to punish men of all religious persuasion and particularly
totally INNOCENT CHILDREN.
There is a similar quantity of diseases that punish animals. Animals don't
sin. Why are they being punished???
Why Is man born helpless and required to be nurtured, protected and
trained by adult parents for up to twenty years and then experience a
punishing physical and mental deterioration for approximately twenty years
before death? Supposedly they then experience a fantastic existence in a
Heaven (or punishment in Hell) for eternity!
If God exists, either He can do nothing to stop the most egregious
calamities, or he just does not care to. God, therefore, is either
impotent or evil.
This is all so illogical and ridiculous that it has to be the mythical
creation of men.
Religion is things hoped for but not yet seen or proven. Science is things
seen and proven but not necessarily hoped for.
The objective evidence is that no gods created man but quite the opposite;
that man created imaginary gods! (thousands of them!)
Arguments of the form, "If God exists, then we should/should not see..."
rely on the assumption that we know what God's psychology would be like.
The best we can say is that there is no evidence of God's existence, and
plenty of evidence that he is a fabrication of superstitious, primitive
people.
--
MarkA
(this space accidentally filled in)
.
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| User: "Pastor Frank" |
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| Title: Re: POWERFUL EVIDENCE OF NO GODS |
12 Oct 2006 09:43:38 AM |
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"MarkA" <toor@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:pan.2006.10.11.03.07.48.320908@nowhere.com...
Arguments of the form, "If God exists, then we should/should not see..."
rely on the assumption that we know what God's psychology would be like.
The best we can say is that there is no evidence of God's existence, and
plenty of evidence that he is a fabrication of superstitious, primitive
people.
Our Christian "God is love" (1 John 4:8,16) and there is plenty of
evidence, that our God exists. It's the god and/or devil of YOUR definition,
that doesn't exist. Let me guess: Your god is an invisible old man in the
sky. Right?
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| User: "Barry OGrady" |
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| Title: Re: POWERFUL EVIDENCE OF NO GODS |
27 Oct 2006 01:20:27 AM |
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On Thu, 12 Oct 2006 10:43:38 -0400, "Pastor Frank" <PastorFrank@christfirst.org> wrote:
"MarkA" <toor@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:pan.2006.10.11.03.07.48.320908@nowhere.com...
Arguments of the form, "If God exists, then we should/should not see..."
rely on the assumption that we know what God's psychology would be like.
The best we can say is that there is no evidence of God's existence, and
plenty of evidence that he is a fabrication of superstitious, primitive
people.
Our Christian "God is love" (1 John 4:8,16) and there is plenty of
evidence, that our God exists. It's the god and/or devil of YOUR definition,
that doesn't exist. Let me guess: Your god is an invisible old man in the
sky. Right?
Your God is a powerless unthinking concept.
Barry
=====
Home page
http://members.iinet.net.au/~barry.og
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| User: "MarkA" |
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| Title: Re: POWERFUL EVIDENCE OF NO GODS |
14 Oct 2006 12:58:48 PM |
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On Thu, 12 Oct 2006 10:43:38 -0400, Pastor Frank wrote:
"MarkA" <toor@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:pan.2006.10.11.03.07.48.320908@nowhere.com...
Arguments of the form, "If God exists, then we should/should not see..."
rely on the assumption that we know what God's psychology would be like.
The best we can say is that there is no evidence of God's existence, and
plenty of evidence that he is a fabrication of superstitious, primitive
people.
Our Christian "God is love" (1 John 4:8,16) and there is plenty of
evidence, that our God exists. It's the god and/or devil of YOUR
definition, that doesn't exist. Let me guess: Your god is an invisible old
man in the sky. Right?
I don't have a god. I'm an atheist. And I can't tell you how tired I am
of hearing about all the evidence for God's existence, which invariably
turns out to be rubbish.
--
MarkA
(this space accidentally filled in)
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| User: "Pastor Frank" |
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| Title: Re: POWERFUL EVIDENCE OF NO GODS |
15 Oct 2006 01:15:01 PM |
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"MarkA" <toor@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:pan.2006.10.14.17.58.46.350634@nowhere.com...
On Thu, 12 Oct 2006 10:43:38 -0400, Pastor Frank wrote:
"MarkA" <toor@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:pan.2006.10.11.03.07.48.320908@nowhere.com...
Arguments of the form, "If God exists, then we should/should not see..."
rely on the assumption that we know what God's psychology would be like.
The best we can say is that there is no evidence of God's existence, and
plenty of evidence that he is a fabrication of superstitious, primitive
people.
Our Christian "God is love" (1 John 4:8,16) and there is plenty of
evidence, that our God exists. It's the god and/or devil of YOUR
definition, that doesn't exist. Let me guess: Your god is an invisible
old
man in the sky. Right?
I don't have a god. I'm an atheist. And I can't tell you how tired I am
of hearing about all the evidence for God's existence, which invariably
turns out to be rubbish.
That sounds like: I don't have a car, I am a pedestrian, by reason that
you don't believe in cars and have nothing good to say about cars and people
who own cars. But so what? I am telling you that our Christian "God is love"
(1 John 4:8,16). That means we have a God and that we think very highly of
our God.
You have the choice to either inquire about what our God is about, or
just ignore us and our God. To lambaste something for which you lack any
meaningful definition, such as i.e. "God means an invisible old man in the
sky" is inane.
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| User: "Barry OGrady" |
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| Title: Re: POWERFUL EVIDENCE OF NO GODS |
27 Oct 2006 01:20:05 AM |
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On Sat, 14 Oct 2006 17:58:48 GMT, MarkA <toor@nowhere.com> wrote:
On Thu, 12 Oct 2006 10:43:38 -0400, Pastor Frank wrote:
"MarkA" <toor@nowhere.com> wrote in message
news:pan.2006.10.11.03.07.48.320908@nowhere.com...
Arguments of the form, "If God exists, then we should/should not see..."
rely on the assumption that we know what God's psychology would be like.
The best we can say is that there is no evidence of God's existence, and
plenty of evidence that he is a fabrication of superstitious, primitive
people.
Our Christian "God is love" (1 John 4:8,16) and there is plenty of
evidence, that our God exists. It's the god and/or devil of YOUR
definition, that doesn't exist. Let me guess: Your god is an invisible old
man in the sky. Right?
I don't have a god. I'm an atheist. And I can't tell you how tired I am
of hearing about all the evidence for God's existence, which invariably
turns out to be rubbish.
But Frank's God does exist, although it is quite useless.
--
MarkA
Barry
=====
Home page
http://members.iinet.net.au/~barry.og
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| User: "The_Sage" |
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| Title: Re: POWERFUL EVIDENCE OF NO GODS |
16 Oct 2006 06:21:18 PM |
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Reply to article by: MarkA <toor@nowhere.com>
Date written: Wed, 11 Oct 2006 03:07:50 GMT
MsgID:<pan.2006.10.11.03.07.48.320908@nowhere.com>
Arguments of the form, "If God exists, then we should/should not see..."
rely on the assumption that we know what God's psychology would be like.
The best we can say is that there is no evidence of God's existence, and
plenty of evidence that he is a fabrication of superstitious, primitive
people.
Arguments of the form, "If God exists, then we should/should not see..."
rely on the fact that we know what justice and mercy and morality are like.
There is no God or Gods that are just, merciful, or moral. The best we can say
is that there is no evidence that any description of God was based on anything
other than fantasy...and there is no need to suspect the existence of something
where nothing has been proven to suspect in the first place.
The Sage
=============================================================
http://members.cox.net/the.sage/index.htm
"All those painted screens erected by man to shut out reality
-- history, religion, duty, social position --
all were illusions, mere opium fantasies"
John Fowles, The French Lieutenant's Woman
=============================================================
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| User: "Azure" |
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| Title: Re: POWERFUL EVIDENCE OF NO GODS |
10 Oct 2006 11:55:17 PM |
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MarkA wrote:
On Sun, 08 Oct 2006 15:21:17 -0400, Bill M wrote:
Powerful evidence that no REAL gods exist.
A primary one is that there are thousands of different gods and god
beliefs.
Gods are Humans who walked the Earth, "GOD" is a Universal Concept of "All
Things" "The One" "The Body" ect. . . . .
Any REAL god would make sure everyone is abundantly clear,
Did a few times, man just will not listen.
directly from his heaven,
I Like Hel better, Heaven is where the Warriors go to fight eternal battles for
the pleasures of the Gods.
Hel is were those who die of Old Age or Disease go.
That is Why it is known to have Teachers Known as "Ancients", Venerable, the
Gray's.
that he is the real god and all the others are
fakes. He would use his unlimited power to expose and eliminate the
fakes.
Does, don't understand why it let Man Lock the Doors though.
This all powerful creator, all loving and caring intelligent designer,
Roman/Hebrew Myth
would not create Plagues, Tsunamis, Tornadoes, Volcanic Eruptions, Earth
Quakes, Wars, Cancers and hundreds of debilitating diseases, serious body
malfunctions and starvation all of which punish people indiscriminately
Your point of View.
I saw the Body point at 3 Earth Quakes, a Tidal Wave, and Scream the Term Banda
Acha(?), came out to me as
Badb Achi.
regardless of their religious beliefs. If he did he would not be an all
loving all caring god but a brutal malevolent creature or nothing at all.
There are 12,000 known diseases that torture and kill man. The reality is
that no all loving and all powerful god would create or permit these
diseases to punish men of all religious persuasion and particularly
totally INNOCENT CHILDREN.
There is a similar quantity of diseases that punish animals. Animals don't
sin. Why are they being punished???
Why Is man born helpless and required to be nurtured, protected and
trained by adult parents for up to twenty years and then experience a
punishing physical and mental deterioration for approximately twenty years
before death? Supposedly they then experience a fantastic existence in a
Heaven (or punishment in Hell) for eternity!
If God exists, either He can do nothing to stop the most egregious
calamities, or he just does not care to. God, therefore, is either
impotent or evil.
This is all so illogical and ridiculous that it has to be the mythical
creation of men.
Religion is things hoped for but not yet seen or proven. Science is things
seen and proven but not necessarily hoped for.
The objective evidence is that no gods created man but quite the opposite;
that man created imaginary gods! (thousands of them!)
Arguments of the form, "If God exists, then we should/should not see..."
rely on the assumption that we know what God's psychology would be like.
The best we can say is that there is no evidence of God's existence, and
plenty of evidence that he is a fabrication of superstitious, primitive
people.
--
MarkA
(this space accidentally filled in)
.
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| User: "duke" |
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| Title: Re: POWERFUL EVIDENCE OF NO GODS |
11 Oct 2006 04:09:27 PM |
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On Sun, 8 Oct 2006 15:21:17 -0400, "Bill M" <wmech@bellsouth.net> wrote:
Powerful evidence that no REAL gods exist.
A primary one is that there are thousands of different gods and god beliefs.
No there isn't. In fact, there is only one. He's the one that was actually
alive.
Any REAL god would make sure everyone is abundantly clear, directly from his
heaven, that he is the real god and all the others are fakes.
Sounds like an atheist position.
Enough of your silliness.
duke, American-American
*****
"The Mass is the most perfect form of Prayer."
Pope Paul VI
*****
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| User: "Pastor Frank" |
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| Title: Re: POWERFUL EVIDENCE OF NO GODS |
13 Oct 2006 03:13:29 AM |
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"duke" <duckgumbo32@cox.net> wrote in message
news:u9nqi2tvhmk7bddf7jija5c60tkfh6umc4@4ax.com...
On Sun, 8 Oct 2006 15:21:17 -0400, "Bill M" <wmech@bellsouth.net> wrote:
Powerful evidence that no REAL gods exist.
A primary one is that there are thousands of different gods and god
beliefs.
No there isn't. In fact, there is only one. He's the one that was
actually
alive.
Any REAL god would make sure everyone is abundantly clear, directly from
his
heaven, that he is the real god and all the others are fakes.
Sounds like an atheist position.
Enough of your silliness.
Our Christian "God is love" (1 John 4:8,16) become fully manifested in
Jesus Christ. He made Himself "abundantly clear" by dying for us sinners an
agonizing death on the cross of Calvary, for no other reason than because of
His love for us. The loveless cannot see this. See below
Pastor Frank
1Jn:4:8: He that loveth not, knoweth not God; for GOD IS LOVE.
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| User: "duke" |
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| Title: Re: POWERFUL EVIDENCE OF NO GODS |
16 Oct 2006 02:08:48 PM |
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On Fri, 13 Oct 2006 04:13:29 -0400, "Pastor Frank" <PastorFrank@christfirst.org>
wrote:
Our Christian "God is love" (1 John 4:8,16) become fully manifested in
Jesus Christ. He made Himself "abundantly clear" by dying for us sinners an
agonizing death on the cross of Calvary, for no other reason than because of
His love for us. The loveless cannot see this. See below
Pastor Frank
1Jn:4:8: He that loveth not, knoweth not God; for GOD IS LOVE.
Yes, that is all true.
duke, American-American
*****
"The Mass is the most perfect form of Prayer."
Pope Paul VI
*****
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| User: "Dichard Rawkins" |
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| Title: Re: POWERFUL EVIDENCE OF NO GODS |
14 Oct 2006 01:12:11 PM |
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Pastor Frank <PastorFrank@christfirst.org> wrote in message
<71f8a$452f585c$d1d89a46$29090@PRIMUS.CA>
Our Christian "God is love" (1 John 4:8,16) become fully manifested in
Jesus Christ. He made Himself "abundantly clear" by dying for us sinners an
agonizing death on the cross of Calvary, for no other reason than because of
His love for us.
The Christian god is not love. If there really were a loving god in charge of
the universe, he would simply forgive sins without accepting the human
sacrifice of an innocent. Forgiving would be the loving thing to do, not
requiring a blood sacrifice like some kind of primitive monster. It is
precisely the fact that the Christian god accepted an innocent HUMAN sacrifice
that belies the lie behind the whole myth that the Christian god is "love". He
is nothing but the old "pagan" gods of that time, warmed over and hidden
beneath a layer of ridiculous sophistry. Paul was just an epileptic that
misinterpreted his epileptic symptoms as having some deeper significance, and
tried to fit it in within the confines of Mithraism and Judaism, which itself
was a racist reactionary religion that arose out of Jewish hatred for their
captors and contemporaries. There is nothing loving about the whole thing. It
is just hatred turned into a set of abstractions.
--
***Free Your Mind***
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[ Followup-To: alt.bible ]
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