In alt.religion.christian.roman-catholic
walksalone@dirty.dastardly.deeds.done.dirt.cheap.llc wrote: > In
<xMB5e.7$8L2.2730@news.abs.net>, on 04/08/05

at 08:25 PM, William McHale <mchale@beast.toad.net> said:

In alt.religion.christian.roman-catholic
walksalone@dirty.dastardly.deeds.done.dirt.cheap.llc wrote: > In
<Voh5e.12$hr1.4375@news.abs.net>, on 04/07/05 > at 09:14 PM, William
McHale <mchale@beast.toad.net> said:

I don't think there really is anything sadder than a man who gets smug
and feels like he can rub people's noses in the fact that a man died.

I normally do not respond to these posts generated by god's creator, but your above comment caught my attention.
My question for you, is that not what xians do?

Are you referring to Christians proclaiming Jesus's crucifixtion? If not

Give yourself a gold star, you got it in one.
Which leads to the second question, why do they do it when there is no reason to believe their missing messiah ever existed.

Ok, this is the one that always gets me. I can understand the claim that
Jesus was just a man, and the apostles were somehow deluded into thinking
he died and was resurrected (i.e. either he didn't die on the cross or
died and stayed dead). I have never understood the claim that Jesus as

an historical person was a fabrication. Ultimately Christianity, even as

a false religion, simply makes no sense unless Jesus existed as a person.

We know that Christianity existed by the second century, and we know that

even then it appears to point to an origin in the first century and that

it appears to have grown out of Judiaism. That break makes little sense

unless it had been lead by a very Charismatic figure. Yes one could

argue that the Charismatic figure was Paul or one of the other early
Church leaders, but I think ultimately if we apply Occum's razor the
simplest explination was that Jesus as a man existed (His connection to
God if any is a matter of faith of course).

could you please elaborate? If you are, well.... maybe in one sense it
could be looked at that way; certainly some Christians seem to approach

Some, it is centeral to their claims, not only was he snuffed as a traitor had he existed, but he did it for everyone not born, whether they wanted it or not. Pretty conceited to attempt to play that card as real, but then, I don't have the problem.

Why is it conceited? If we believe in God, why should we not believe
that God chose this method to allow us to be redeemed? At least from a

Catholic perspective, Jesus died to share our suffering and to allow us
to be saved, but no one is forced to accept salvation.

it that way. But mind you I would think a more appropriate reaction for
a Christian would be to feel sad that such was ever necessary in the
first place.

That puts you ahead of most I've encountered in the good guy standings, but the questions that claim begs are insurmountable for people like me.
Like why was it necessary for a god to cut off part of himself [a part he had
been training since day one & we all know the old saw, like father like son]
So it could sacrifice itself to make a sin offering for the flawed humans
it created, that were designed to sin. & no, if the xian gods were to exist
free will can no exist in any meaningful sense of the word.

Well lets be careful how we define things. We don't believe that Jesus

was cut off from the Father, rather he limited himself by taking on the
form and nature of a human but he still retained his divine nature and

connection to the Father. That being said, I think that there are many
theories about why God choose this way, but ultimately they are all
speculation. One could argue that God did it this way because only a
perfect submission to divine will could undo the defiance against his
will when man first sinned. Or perhaps it was to show solidarity with
man; that it could not be said that God did not understand what it meant
to live and suffer as a man. This is of course speculation.

Regarding freewill, I reject your premise that free will cannot exist in
a world where the Christian God (and in this context I take it that you
mean an omnipotent and omnicient Diety) exists. I believe, personally,

that we are all granted free will; that God's creation of us is not
contingent upon our actions being the actions he would have us choose.

But that is simply an extention of what xians do & more than you asked for.
walksalone who not only appreciated the answer, but the lack of tap dancing.

You are welcome. Well the saddest thing about many of the "Christians"
in the world is that they were force fed their Christianity and never
questioned why they believe what they believe in the first place. They
kind of look for all the answers in the Bible or worse yet from a single
pastor or priest and never really expand beyond it. Personally I belief
faith should involve a constant questioning of assumptions.

Ok, this is the one that always gets me. I can understand the claim that Jesus
was just a man, and the apostles were somehow deluded into thinking he died
and was resurrected (i.e. either he didn't die on the cross or died and stayed
dead). I have never understood the claim that Jesus as an historical person
was a fabrication. Ultimately Christianity, even as a false religion, simply
makes no sense unless Jesus existed as a person. We know that Christianity
existed by the second century, and we know that even then it appears to point
to an origin in the first century and that it appears to have grown out of
Judiaism. That break makes little sense unless it had been lead by a very
Charismatic figure.