johac wrote:

If I recall my history, the nobles had another reason for going with
Luther that didn't involve doctrine. Many of the German princes wanted
to get out from under the thumb of the Holy Roman Empire. Switching to
Luther's religion gave them an excuse to dump the Catholic emperor. Of
course this took a long time and was only settled by the bloody Thirty
Years War.

Good point. At this time so many different people had a reason to stage
a breakaway from the RCC. The strong connection between religion and
political power created problems that allowed change only if religious
and secular leaders would cooperate. And the common population had
nothing to say.

In a way the absence of a direct connection between state and church
today makes the RCC more stable. At least in the democratic countries
people can just ignore the church teachings and elect representants to
realize what they want. The church doesn't need to change, the society
around it can move on, and some time later the church can either follow
up or risk a steady draining of members.

Of course this could also reverse and go in the other direction. It's a
balance act. (see Kansas)

Good question. A lot would depend on the individual and how the break
was made. If one diocese, or even one parish, were to break, and got
away with it amidst favorable publicity, it could encourage others.

And this could lead to hundreds of little splitter groups. It's a common
problem after a large group disintegrates that you have many small
groups pulling in different directions, while the bulk of the old group
recovers relatively easily.

Happened similar after the eastern European countries got rid of the
communist system. The democratic revolutionaries couldn't agree on all
the details beyond "Things must change", the old power groups swapped
out their leaders, adapted and actually won free elections. Good thing
that the replacing of leaders went far enough that in most countries
they didn't revert back to a dictatorship.

<snip>

It's one thing to disagree with the guy in Rome, and another to ***** of
your parents. Been there...

Same here.

Hope you had it like me. Lots of worrying how they are going to take it,
and then nobody really cared.

<snip>

That's fast for them. It took 800 years to apologize for the Fourth
Crusade.

They did? Didn't know about this.

What's so special about the fourth? That they killed more orthodox
Christians than Muslims? One of those? And they said sorry about this
one and nothing about the others?

Have to check into this...

(references would be appreciated)

That's true. I know some people in the church who are doing good things,
but they do tend to be in the lower echelons. It's really sad about
AIDS. Due to their stupid inflexible dogma, they may succeed in killing
more people than all of the inquisitions, crusades, and religious wars
combined.

Will some future Pope apologize for that?

The way things are going, sometime in about 50-100 years. For now I'd
already be happy if they would admit that a condom can prevent
transmittance of the disease. What's wrong with saying "You shouldn't
have sex outside of marriage, but if you really want to risk eternal
damnation, at least don't kill yourself as fast as possible"?

I can joke about 300 years waiting for a formal apology regarding
Galileo, but they accepted his work much earlier. And regarding
evolution they were fast to come around. About hundred years. Pretty
good considering that they had to accept that the first chapters of
their holy book are wrong.

The RCC doesn't take the Bible as literal. We were taught that it was OK
to believe that man's body arose by evolution, but when we got to Adam,
God jumped into the process and gave him a soul, whatever that was
supposed to be.

AFIK they adopted this sometime in the 1950s. Clever move actually. They
must have realized that evolution doesn't go away just because they want
it and a repetition of the Galileo disaster was pretty much
unacceptable. So we declare the bible "not meant literaly" and we are
out of this and any possible future issue as long as we can find a gap
to park our God.

And from time to time we remind the science guys that research about the
gaps is not welcome here.

<snip>

It seems that the automatic flow of money makes them lazy. I spent the
last six years in the US, so I can compare. There is no advertising for
the church in Germany. No huge billboards. No specialized TV channels
for indoctrination and money harvesting (with digital cable we'll
probably get them soon from some fringe groups.) Sometimes they rent an
hour to show a special mass, but that's about it. The members are all
nicely registered, the money comes from alone, so why bother to drag the
sheep in the church? They just break the chairs. And the expense for
bread and wine. And if they find out how they are supposed to live their
live, they may actually leave.

Whereas in America many of the older priests and nuns are dying in
poverty in secular nursing homes because there isn't enough money or
younger clergy to take care of them.

Didn't know about this. The way you write it it sound like they are
abandoned by the church? This is strange.

Technically, a priest or monk/nun owns nothing. The church is supposed
to provide the income they need to live. In Germany this means that a
priest gets a pension when he retires from his parish. Monks and nuns
stay in the monastary till they die; priest, as long as they are healthy
are pretty free to do what they want, and when they get to fragile to
live by them self the can go into a nursing home. The church provides
for this. Actually they run a lot of them. Mainly with regular staff,
not nuns, but it's pretty normal. They charge for living there like a
secular organization would do, but also offer many free living places
for people who don't have money and are to old or sick to live on the
street.

The situation regarding younger clergy is the same in all western
countries I know. They are running out of young people willing to devote
their live to the church. Many monasteries have been closed, many
parishes were joined up to form one larger one for lack of priest.

Closing a monastery/church is sometimes becoming a problem for the
state, too. In Germany almost all church properties have been transfered
in state possession around 1800 [1]. The church today is using it, often
for free as long as they maintain the buildings. If they can't or won't,
the state has to take care of it. This are centuries old buildings. Ever
tried to find a use for a church when you can't allow any changes to the
building? As long as the catholics are in it and praying, they take care
of the leaks in the roof. When they move out, it becomes everybodies
problem. You can build a new church for the same money maintaining one
of this 12th century monsters cost per year.

[1] Just checked the date on Google. 1803. One of the first docs coming
up had this quote
"They took everything away from the priests but their eyes to cry."
C.L. Fortbach

Today the church wouldn't take the stuff back even if we wrap it in money.
Cheaters.

I got however a reaction when I left. Priest visited and asked what
happened. He got pretty embarrassed when I asked where he was five years
ago when I lost my faith and why he shows up now when I formally cut him
of my income.

I'm sure that he didn't have much to say.

Not much. I knew him during my early childhood, during my teens I didn't
see him. I changed schools and he lost contact to me. When I left he
must have thought it a good idea to check into it. Pointing out that he
didn't care for years killed any intensive religious discussion he may
have intended. We had a little talk, he figured I thought about what I'm
doing and then had coffee with the rest of the family.

Having had religion in school all my life prepared me well for any
arguments he had. Heard them before, see?

<snip>

I don't even know if I'm on a list. Normally one goes to the church in
the parish where you live, but I've lived in so many different places,
I'm sure that they lost track of me years ago.

Figures. You need government powers to really track a person. If they
don't get access to this, you just disappear.

AFAIK, Germany and Austria are the only countries were a formal
declaration of non-membership actually gets you a formal "You're out! No
more body of Christ for you." response.

Too bad. Sometimes I wish I had a formal notice so I could put it up on
the wall. :-)

Easy:
Move to Germany, get a job.

State you are a RCC member on all tax documents you have to give your
employer.
Wait a few weeks for things to work through the system.
Then change your docs.
Wait.
Tadaaaa!!!

It's not worth the effort. But it's the only way I know to work for
sure. The other tips I've seen, like going to church and committing
heresy probably just gets you thrown out and laught at.

j.m.
#1491