Religions > Atheism > Prime Evidence of Macroevolution for Pastor Dave - Example 5*46*
| Topic: |
Religions > Atheism |
| User: |
"Budikka666" |
| Date: |
12 Oct 2005 06:31:10 PM |
| Object: |
Prime Evidence of Macroevolution for Pastor Dave - Example 5*46* |
This one is based on testimony (under oath to god himself by a
practicing Catholic) being given in a current court case, but I can't
give a rerference to it because Pastor Dave throws a hissy-fit if you
actually reference something. Note that he never does himself, so I
shall respect that tradition - until a while from now.
Humans have 23 pairs of chromosomes, *46* in all. Chimpanzees have 48.
Now if there is so-called "macroevolution" - if humans and chimpanzees
actually *did* share a common ancestor, then at some point in our
respective evolution from that ancestor, the chimpanzees gained two
chromosomes, or we "lost" two. This is a prediction that the modern
synthesis of the Theory of Evolution makes. In fact, it is a
prediction Charles Darwin himself made.
Actually, the loss of a pair of chromosomes would more than likely be
fatal to an organism, so it's unlikely they were lost. The only other
option is that they got fused together.
Chromosomes have genetic markers at the their ends (called telomeres)
and in their middle (called centromeres). If two pairs of chromosomes
in the human lineage fused together from the larger number of
chromosomes in an ancestor we share with the apes, there should be
evidence of this. Failure to find such evidence would be a crushing
blow to the Theory of Evolution
When scientists were able to look at human Chromosome 2 in sufficient
detail, they discovered that it was actually the result of a fusion of
two other chromosomes. They could tell this because at one point in
the chromosome they found extra telomeres. These were not at the end
where they would have been put if humans had been designed, but in the
middle, where the two originally separate chromosomes had become
"glued" together.
But what of the centromeres? What do they do? They tell the
chromosome where to separate when reproduction takes place. So
wouldn't this mean the doubled chromosome 2 separates in two places?
Nope. One of the centromeres is disabled by mutation.
So here we have macroevolution proven at the genetic level. A god
might make two species similarly, but would an intelligent designer,
with all eternity to work in and infinite resources to call upon make a
mistake like that? No!
So there you have it, Pastor Dave. Proof of macroevolution (if you
insist upon calling it that) that cannot be accounted for by
intelligent design, that links chimpanzees and humans back to a common
ancestor.
I did it without a single reference to a web site, without giving you a
URL, without referring to a book, or a science paper and without saying
the name of the unmentionable web site. I gave you the scientific
detail, which you said you were prepared to discuss. I met your every
condition and gave you every single thing you asked for. I invite you
to discuss it.
Are you going to finally discuss one of these examples? This example?
Or are we to learn the unvarnished truth about your macroevolution
challenge?
Budikka
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| User: "Jani" |
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| Title: Re: Prime Evidence of Macroevolution for Pastor Dave - Example 5*46* |
12 Oct 2005 07:55:41 PM |
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A Catholic? that's enough for Dave to throw it out as heresy before he even
reads it :(
Jani
(who has now discovered talk.origins. Wow.)
"Budikka666" <budikka1@netscape.net> wrote in message
news:1129159870.936843.95440@g43g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
This one is based on testimony (under oath to god himself by a
practicing Catholic) being given in a current court case, but I can't
give a rerference to it because Pastor Dave throws a hissy-fit if you
actually reference something. Note that he never does himself, so I
shall respect that tradition - until a while from now.
Humans have 23 pairs of chromosomes, *46* in all. Chimpanzees have 48.
Now if there is so-called "macroevolution" - if humans and chimpanzees
actually *did* share a common ancestor, then at some point in our
respective evolution from that ancestor, the chimpanzees gained two
chromosomes, or we "lost" two. This is a prediction that the modern
synthesis of the Theory of Evolution makes. In fact, it is a
prediction Charles Darwin himself made.
Actually, the loss of a pair of chromosomes would more than likely be
fatal to an organism, so it's unlikely they were lost. The only other
option is that they got fused together.
Chromosomes have genetic markers at the their ends (called telomeres)
and in their middle (called centromeres). If two pairs of chromosomes
in the human lineage fused together from the larger number of
chromosomes in an ancestor we share with the apes, there should be
evidence of this. Failure to find such evidence would be a crushing
blow to the Theory of Evolution
When scientists were able to look at human Chromosome 2 in sufficient
detail, they discovered that it was actually the result of a fusion of
two other chromosomes. They could tell this because at one point in
the chromosome they found extra telomeres. These were not at the end
where they would have been put if humans had been designed, but in the
middle, where the two originally separate chromosomes had become
"glued" together.
But what of the centromeres? What do they do? They tell the
chromosome where to separate when reproduction takes place. So
wouldn't this mean the doubled chromosome 2 separates in two places?
Nope. One of the centromeres is disabled by mutation.
So here we have macroevolution proven at the genetic level. A god
might make two species similarly, but would an intelligent designer,
with all eternity to work in and infinite resources to call upon make a
mistake like that? No!
So there you have it, Pastor Dave. Proof of macroevolution (if you
insist upon calling it that) that cannot be accounted for by
intelligent design, that links chimpanzees and humans back to a common
ancestor.
I did it without a single reference to a web site, without giving you a
URL, without referring to a book, or a science paper and without saying
the name of the unmentionable web site. I gave you the scientific
detail, which you said you were prepared to discuss. I met your every
condition and gave you every single thing you asked for. I invite you
to discuss it.
Are you going to finally discuss one of these examples? This example?
Or are we to learn the unvarnished truth about your macroevolution
challenge?
Budikka
.
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| User: "Budikka666" |
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| Title: Re: Prime Evidence of Macroevolution for Pastor Dave - Example 5*46* |
13 Oct 2005 05:59:41 PM |
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Jani wrote:
A Catholic? that's enough for Dave to throw it out as heresy before he even
reads it :(
Jani
(who has now discovered talk.origins. Wow.)
Good for you!!!!!
If you like that, you'll love:
www.pandasthumb.org
and
www.pharyngula.org
and
http://thequestionableauthority.blogspot.com/
(which has a good piece on criticisms of Ken Miller's testimony in the
Dover so-called intelligent so-called design trial).
Budikka
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| User: "Pastor Dave" |
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| Title: Re: Prime Evidence of Macroevolution for Pastor Dave - Example 5*46* |
12 Oct 2005 09:58:19 PM |
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On Thu, 13 Oct 2005 01:55:41 +0100, "Jani"
<jani@dsl.pipex.com> spake thusly:
A Catholic? that's enough for Dave to throw it out as heresy before he even
reads it :(
But of course, even though I'm not even posting to you
in this thread, you are not out to attack me and you're
a good person, right?
Good people always join in attacking the faithful
to God.
Jani
(who has now discovered talk.origins. Wow.)
Yes, another place for you to rail against God and
against me, right? :)
--
Pastor Dave
1st Century Church of Christ
"...be strong all people of the land,
says Jehovah, and work; for I am with
you, says Jehovah of Hosts; with the
Word who cut a covenant with you...
My Spirit remains among you. Do not fear."
- Haggai 2:4b-5
"If you will not believe,
Surely you will not be established."
- Isaiah 7:9b
.
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| User: "Melchizedek" |
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| Title: Re: Prime Evidence of Macroevolution for Pastor Dave - Example 5*46* |
13 Oct 2005 08:10:06 AM |
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"Pastor Dave" <1news-group-mail1@nospam-tampa-bay.rr.com> wrote in message
news:j7jrk1dteonkcdq9ir7sbbo34bacp4hgjn@4ax.com...
On Thu, 13 Oct 2005 01:55:41 +0100, "Jani"
<jani@dsl.pipex.com> spake thusly:
A Catholic? that's enough for Dave to throw it out as heresy before he
even
reads it :(
But of course, even though I'm not even posting to you
in this thread, you are not out to attack me and you're
a good person, right?
Good people always join in attacking the faithful
to God.
"...be strong all people of the land,
says Jehovah, and work; for I am with
you, says Jehovah of Hosts; with the
Word who cut a covenant with you...
My Spirit remains among you. Do not fear."
- Haggai 2:4b-5
"If you will not believe,
Surely you will not be established."
- Isaiah 7:9b
http://lulu.com/bibleweb/
.
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| User: "Rick Heeke" |
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| Title: Re: Prime Evidence of Macroevolution for Pastor Dave - Example 5*46* |
13 Oct 2005 07:10:43 PM |
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Pastor Dave wrote:
On Thu, 13 Oct 2005 01:55:41 +0100, "Jani"
<jani@dsl.pipex.com> spake thusly:
A Catholic? that's enough for Dave to throw it out as heresy before he even
reads it :(
But of course, even though I'm not even posting to you
in this thread, you are not out to attack me and you're
a good person, right?
Good people always join in attacking the faithful
to God.
Jani
(who has now discovered talk.origins. Wow.)
Yes, another place for you to rail against God and
against me, right? :)
Perhaps you should consider evolving a carapace.
--
Neca eos omnes. Deus suos agnoset.
to email me, concatenate the following:
nom de plume of Jay, Madison, Hamilton-The Federalist
(new, in Latin) at (this planet) dot net
.
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| User: "Pastor Dave" |
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| Title: Re: Prime Evidence of Macroevolution for Pastor Dave - Example 5*46* |
13 Oct 2005 07:30:37 PM |
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On Fri, 14 Oct 2005 00:10:43 GMT, Rick Heeke
<heekster@urplint.not> spake thusly:
Pastor Dave wrote:
On Thu, 13 Oct 2005 01:55:41 +0100, "Jani"
<jani@dsl.pipex.com> spake thusly:
A Catholic? that's enough for Dave to throw it out as heresy before he even
reads it :(
But of course, even though I'm not even posting to you
in this thread, you are not out to attack me and you're
a good person, right?
Good people always join in attacking the faithful
to God.
Jani
(who has now discovered talk.origins. Wow.)
Yes, another place for you to rail against God and
against me, right? :)
Perhaps you should consider evolving a carapace.
Perhaps telling the truth would be a good thing.
But as usual, the criticism lands on the person
who was attacked.
--
Pastor Dave
1st Century Church of Christ
"...be strong all people of the land,
says Jehovah, and work; for I am with
you, says Jehovah of Hosts; with the
Word who cut a covenant with you...
My Spirit remains among you. Do not fear."
- Haggai 2:4b-5
"If you will not believe,
Surely you will not be established."
- Isaiah 7:9b
.
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| User: "Rick Heeke" |
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| Title: Re: Prime Evidence of Macroevolution for Pastor Dave - Example 5*46* |
14 Oct 2005 06:42:56 PM |
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Pastor Dave wrote:
On Fri, 14 Oct 2005 00:10:43 GMT, Rick Heeke
<heekster@urplint.not> spake thusly:
Pastor Dave wrote:
On Thu, 13 Oct 2005 01:55:41 +0100, "Jani"
<jani@dsl.pipex.com> spake thusly:
A Catholic? that's enough for Dave to throw it out as heresy before he even
reads it :(
But of course, even though I'm not even posting to you
in this thread, you are not out to attack me and you're
a good person, right?
Good people always join in attacking the faithful
to God.
Jani
(who has now discovered talk.origins. Wow.)
Yes, another place for you to rail against God and
against me, right? :)
Perhaps you should consider evolving a carapace.
Perhaps telling the truth would be a good thing.
The truth is, no one can prove the existence of god. Especially if
there is such an entity, and it values its privacy.
The truth is, one cannot attack that which has not been shown to exist.
The truth is, there are over one hundred versions of the Bible, and even
more books and gospels, which may or may not be a part thereof.
The truth is, that the Bible began as an oral tradition of a
polytheistic people in Mesopotamia, and *evolved* into monotheism.
The truth is, when the Bible was finally written down, there were
inconsistencies and redundancies, as well as mistakes. Seriously,
writing the Pentateuch in old Hebrew, based on the memories of old
stories, in a contiguous, unpunctuated, boustrophedon manner, and you
think this is an unimpeachable example of divine clarity?
The truth is, even the KJV was an adulterated translation, due the that
century's version of "political correctness".
The truth is, much of Genesis is in the epic of Gilgamesh, which is
older than the Bible.
The truth is, no one knows who wrote the Bible. No one can verify
stories therein, that may, or may not, have used apocalyptic imagery.
The truth is, there are animals that reproduce asexually, so the Bible
is wrong, when it says, "male and female, he created them"
The truth is, Job suffers because God and Satan are a couple of sadists.
And Job is a fool. The brothers Grimm had better fairy tales.
The truth is, anyone who comes down from a mountain, and says, "OK
everybody, we have to cut of the ends of our dicks," has been ingesting
a little too much ergot from the kosher rye.
The truth is, crusade and jihad are two sides of a single coin, spawned
by two of the 3 great superstitions out of Mesopotamia.
The truth is, if there were a god, it is unlikely he would concern
himself with the hairless monkeys on the third planet from an
insignificant star, in an outer spiral arm of a lesser galaxy. What a
magnificent conceit these peole have, who think that an omnipotent
entity has personal concern for them.
The truth is, Man created god in Man's image. At least, all the
evidence gathered thus far points to this.
The truth is, ID is a tired fiction, dreamed up by superstitious
zealots, with nothing going for it, except blind faith.
The truth is, the universe is nothing like what you imagine it to be.
But as usual, the criticism lands on the person
who was attacked.
If you have a problem with being railed against, then you have no
business on Usenet.
Stop whining, and produce something that doesn't resemble the
condescending meanderings of a mind stricken by Alzheimer's.
Now, run away, Dave.
--
Neca eos omnes. Deus suos agnoset.
to email me, concatenate the following:
nom de plume of Jay, Madison, Hamilton-The Federalist
(new, in Latin) at (this planet) dot net
.
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| User: "Budikka666" |
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| Title: Re: Prime Evidence of Macroevolution for Pastor Dave - Example 5*46* |
15 Oct 2005 09:36:58 PM |
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Rick Heeke wrote:
Pastor Dave wrote:
On Fri, 14 Oct 2005 00:10:43 GMT, Rick Heeke
<heekster@urplint.not> spake thusly:
Pastor Dave wrote:
On Thu, 13 Oct 2005 01:55:41 +0100, "Jani"
<jani@dsl.pipex.com> spake thusly:
A Catholic? that's enough for Dave to throw it out as heresy before he even
reads it :(
But of course, even though I'm not even posting to you
in this thread, you are not out to attack me and you're
a good person, right?
Good people always join in attacking the faithful
to God.
Jani
(who has now discovered talk.origins. Wow.)
Yes, another place for you to rail against God and
against me, right? :)
Perhaps you should consider evolving a carapace.
Perhaps telling the truth would be a good thing.
The truth is, no one can prove the existence of god. Especially if
there is such an entity, and it values its privacy.
The truth is, one cannot attack that which has not been shown to exist.
The truth is, there are over one hundred versions of the Bible, and even
more books and gospels, which may or may not be a part thereof.
The truth is, that the Bible began as an oral tradition of a
polytheistic people in Mesopotamia, and *evolved* into monotheism.
The truth is, when the Bible was finally written down, there were
inconsistencies and redundancies, as well as mistakes. Seriously,
writing the Pentateuch in old Hebrew, based on the memories of old
stories, in a contiguous, unpunctuated, boustrophedon manner, and you
think this is an unimpeachable example of divine clarity?
The truth is, even the KJV was an adulterated translation, due the that
century's version of "political correctness".
The truth is, much of Genesis is in the epic of Gilgamesh, which is
older than the Bible.
The truth is, no one knows who wrote the Bible. No one can verify
stories therein, that may, or may not, have used apocalyptic imagery.
The truth is, there are animals that reproduce asexually, so the Bible
is wrong, when it says, "male and female, he created them"
The truth is, Job suffers because God and Satan are a couple of sadists.
And Job is a fool. The brothers Grimm had better fairy tales.
The truth is, anyone who comes down from a mountain, and says, "OK
everybody, we have to cut of the ends of our dicks," has been ingesting
a little too much ergot from the kosher rye.
The truth is, crusade and jihad are two sides of a single coin, spawned
by two of the 3 great superstitions out of Mesopotamia.
The truth is, if there were a god, it is unlikely he would concern
himself with the hairless monkeys on the third planet from an
insignificant star, in an outer spiral arm of a lesser galaxy. What a
magnificent conceit these peole have, who think that an omnipotent
entity has personal concern for them.
The truth is, Man created god in Man's image. At least, all the
evidence gathered thus far points to this.
The truth is, ID is a tired fiction, dreamed up by superstitious
zealots, with nothing going for it, except blind faith.
The truth is, the universe is nothing like what you imagine it to be.
But as usual, the criticism lands on the person
who was attacked.
If you have a problem with being railed against, then you have no
business on Usenet.
Stop whining, and produce something that doesn't resemble the
condescending meanderings of a mind stricken by Alzheimer's.
Now, run away, Dave.
--
Neca eos omnes. Deus suos agnoset.
to email me, concatenate the following:
nom de plume of Jay, Madison, Hamilton-The Federalist
(new, in Latin) at (this planet) dot net
**AMEN** to that! And don't worry - Disaster Dave runs away regardless
as to whether he's instructed to do so. He can't help himself. He's
another limp Peter at the passion.
Budikka
.
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| User: "Budikka666" |
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| Title: Re: Prime Evidence of Macroevolution for Pastor Dave - Example 5*46* |
13 Oct 2005 09:57:38 PM |
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Pastor Dave wrote:
Perhaps telling the truth would be a good thing.
You'd actually be able to distinguish fact from fiction in order to
make a pronunciation of that import, Pastor Dave, and since your
acquaintanceship with the truth is cursory at best, perhaps it would be
wisest for you to consider abstention to be the better part of candor.
But as usual, the criticism lands on the person
who was attacked.
No, in alt.atheism, criticsm lands on liars, cowards and hypocrites,
with whom you are evidently on first-name terms.
Budikka
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| User: "Libertarius" |
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| Title: Re: Prime Evidence of Macroevolution for Pastor Dave - Example 5*46* |
13 Oct 2005 12:42:01 PM |
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Pastor Dave wrote:
On Thu, 13 Oct 2005 01:55:41 +0100, "Jani"
<jani@dsl.pipex.com> spake thusly:
A Catholic? that's enough for Dave to throw it out as heresy before he even
reads it :(
But of course, even though I'm not even posting to you
in this thread, you are not out to attack me and you're
a good person, right?
Good people always join in attacking the faithful
to God.
Jani
(who has now discovered talk.origins. Wow.)
Yes, another place for you to rail against God and
against me, right? :)
===>SO, rather than responding to the evidence presented,
fake "pastor" Dave is simply crying about being "attacked".
Poor baby!
Can't you guys just leave him alone, sunken in the quagmire of
his creationist muck? -- L.
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| User: "Budikka666" |
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| Title: Re: Prime Evidence of Macroevolution for Pastor Dave - Example 5*46* |
13 Oct 2005 05:39:45 PM |
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Pastor Dave wrote:
On Thu, 13 Oct 2005 01:55:41 +0100, "Jani"
<jani@dsl.pipex.com> spake thusly:
A Catholic? that's enough for Dave to throw it out as heresy before he even
reads it :(
But of course, even though I'm not even posting to you
in this thread, you are not out to attack me and you're
a good person, right?
Good people always join in attacking the faithful
to God.
This from the lying cowardly **HYPOCRITE** who spends his life
attacking decent scientists he doesn't even know, very many of whom are
Christians?
This from the lying cowardly **HYPOCRITE** who abuses and rails at
atheists who have done nothing to him?
This from the lying cowardly **HYPOCRITE** who offered to discuss the
science with anyone who posted evidence of macroevolution, and who has
consistently run away from every piece of evidence anyone has posted
with zero discussion? Who cannot support a single thing he claims, and
has the stupidity and hypocrisy to diss the references other people
provide to support their case?
This from the lying cowardly **HYPOCRITE** who is posting in the very
thread where I meet **EVERY SINGLE ONE OF HIS IDIOTIC CONDITIONS AND HE
***STILL*** RUNS AWAY FROM IT**?
How pathetic.
How unsurprising.
Another limp Peter at the passion.
Budikka
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| User: "Michael Gray" |
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| Title: Re: Prime Evidence of Macroevolution for Pastor Dave - Example 5*46* |
12 Oct 2005 10:37:59 PM |
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On Thu, 13 Oct 2005 01:55:41 +0100, "Jani" <jani@dsl.pipex.com> wrote:
A Catholic? that's enough for Dave to throw it out as heresy before he even
reads it :(
Jani
(who has now discovered talk.origins. Wow.)
:
"Pastor" Dave would dismiss it, even if *he* wrote it!
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| User: "Melchizedek" |
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| Title: Re: Prime Evidence of Macroevolution for Pastor Dave - Example 5*46* |
13 Oct 2005 08:13:09 AM |
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"Michael Gray" <fleetg@newsguy.spam.com> wrote in message
news:3jlrk1d2boko4o88i43is82s3hk88ebilb@4ax.com...
On Thu, 13 Oct 2005 01:55:41 +0100, "Jani" <jani@dsl.pipex.com> wrote:
A Catholic? that's enough for Dave to throw it out as heresy before he
even
reads it :(
Jani
(who has now discovered talk.origins. Wow.)
:
"Pastor" Dave would dismiss it, even if *he* wrote it!
http://www.trueorigins.org/
http://lulu.com/bibleweb/
http://bibleweb.info/
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| User: "Michael Gray" |
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| Title: Re: Prime Evidence of Macroevolution for Pastor Dave - Example 5*46* |
14 Oct 2005 03:08:50 AM |
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On Thu, 13 Oct 2005 09:13:09 -0400, "Melchizedek"
<Melchizedek@as-if.com> wrote:
"Michael Gray" <fleetg@newsguy.spam.com> wrote in message
news:3jlrk1d2boko4o88i43is82s3hk88ebilb@4ax.com...
On Thu, 13 Oct 2005 01:55:41 +0100, "Jani" <jani@dsl.pipex.com> wrote:
A Catholic? that's enough for Dave to throw it out as heresy before he
even
reads it :(
Jani
(who has now discovered talk.origins. Wow.)
:
"Pastor" Dave would dismiss it, even if *he* wrote it!
http://www.trueorigins.org/
http://lulu.com/bibleweb/
http://bibleweb.info/
Why on earth did you "respond" with that pathetic cut-and-paste load
of fraud and outright lies?
.
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| User: "Budikka666" |
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| Title: Re: Prime Evidence of Macroevolution for Pastor Dave - Example 5*46* |
15 Oct 2005 06:52:16 AM |
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Since Pastor Dave has once again proven himself to be a coward even
where actual science is directly discussed in the message and not even
one reference is given, I think this more than proves what a fraudulent
challenge this Christian made, and what a liar, coward, and hypocrite
he is.
I said I would post a reference later, and here it is:
http://aclupa.org/downloads/Day1AMSession.pdf
(note that this is in printer definition format, so you will need
acrobat reader installed to access it. Alternatly you can go to
http://www.aclupa.org/ and find it there.
Kenneth Miller is a professor of biology at Brown University and
co-author (with Joseph Levine) of a textbook, "Biology: Discovering
Life"
Here's a link to a refutation of some criciticism of Ken Miller's
testimony:
http://tinyurl.com/7br98
Budikka
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