Proof christians are full of crap



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Topic: Religions > Atheism
User: "Andrew W"
Date: 26 Mar 2005 09:36:35 AM
Object: Proof christians are full of crap
Proof christians are full of crap.
Christians say that "God is love".
But if you ask them another time why God made humans then their standard
answer is - "to have someone to love him" (obviously because all his angels
have left him. No surprise there).
But if God is love then why does he need someone to love him?
Why does 'Love' need 'love'?
Lol.
It would be like the ocean asking for glasses of water.
Then christians say - "He did it not because 'He' needs our love but because
'we' needed to love him".
But the thing is, before we existed we had no needs for anything at all.
He obviously created us to fill his own needs, even though a god that is
everything is not supposed to have any needs because he has whatever he
wants the very instant he desires it, and being 'Love' itself, he needs no
love from anyone.
Heh. Christianity is a big cuckoo factory.
--
Andrew W.
History books that contain no lies are extremely dull. The christian bible
is a very interesting book indeed.
Religion Exposed!
http://members.optusnet.com.au/~ajwerner
.

User: "Pastor Frank"

Title: Re: Proof christians are full of crap 26 Mar 2005 01:17:24 PM
"Andrew W" <nospaam_ajwerner@optushome.com.au> wrote in message
news:42452d22$0$5599$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au...


Proof christians are full of crap.
have left him. No surprise there).
But if God is love then why does he need someone to love him?
Why does 'Love' need 'love'? Lol.
It would be like the ocean asking for glasses of water.

God doesn't "need" anything. "God is love" (1 John 4:8,16) become fully
manifested in Jesus Christ and for us to be like God we need to be loving
and caring.

Then christians say - "He did it not because 'He' needs our love but
because 'we' needed to love him".
But the thing is, before we existed we had no needs for anything at all.
He obviously created us to fill his own needs, even though a god that is
everything is not supposed to have any needs because he has whatever he
wants the very instant he desires it, and being 'Love' itself, he needs no
love from anyone.
Heh. Christianity is a big cuckoo factory.

That is true of our heavenly Father, as it is of our earthly parents.
They don't need us, but made us anyway, without even asking our permission.
But all that doesn't apply to you for you are the product of the atheists
"cuckoo factory" and have no earthly nor heavenly parent.
.
User: "kathryn"

Title: Re: Proof christians are full of crap 27 Mar 2005 12:03:49 PM
"Pastor Frank" <PF@christfirst.com> wrote in message
news:1111861583.30cc8c0d78e23fadafc0f63e055f83be@teranews...

"Andrew W" <nospaam_ajwerner@optushome.com.au> wrote in message
news:42452d22$0$5599$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au...


Proof christians are full of crap.
have left him. No surprise there).
But if God is love then why does he need someone to love him?
Why does 'Love' need 'love'? Lol.
It would be like the ocean asking for glasses of water.

God doesn't "need" anything. "God is love" (1 John 4:8,16) become fully
manifested in Jesus Christ and for us to be like God we need to be loving
and caring.

Then christians say - "He did it not because 'He' needs our love but
because 'we' needed to love him".
But the thing is, before we existed we had no needs for anything at all.
He obviously created us to fill his own needs, even though a god that is
everything is not supposed to have any needs because he has whatever he
wants the very instant he desires it, and being 'Love' itself, he needs
no love from anyone.
Heh. Christianity is a big cuckoo factory.

That is true of our heavenly Father, as it is of our earthly parents.
They don't need us, but made us anyway, without even asking our
permission. But all that doesn't apply to you for you are the product of
the atheists "cuckoo factory" and have no earthly nor heavenly parent.

Thanks for clearing that up for us.
.

User: "Andrew W"

Title: Re: Proof christians are full of crap 26 Mar 2005 10:15:55 PM
"Pastor Frank" <PF@christfirst.com> wrote in message
news:1111861583.30cc8c0d78e23fadafc0f63e055f83be@teranews...

"Andrew W" <nospaam_ajwerner@optushome.com.au> wrote in message
news:42452d22$0$5599$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au...


Proof christians are full of crap.
have left him. No surprise there).
But if God is love then why does he need someone to love him?
Why does 'Love' need 'love'? Lol.
It would be like the ocean asking for glasses of water.

God doesn't "need" anything. "God is love" (1 John 4:8,16) become fully
manifested in Jesus Christ and for us to be like God we need to be loving
and caring.

If God doesn't need anything then why did he create us?
We certainly had no need to be created.
He must have done it for some reason. The question is what.


Then christians say - "He did it not because 'He' needs our love but
because 'we' needed to love him".
But the thing is, before we existed we had no needs for anything at all.
He obviously created us to fill his own needs, even though a god that is
everything is not supposed to have any needs because he has whatever he
wants the very instant he desires it, and being 'Love' itself, he needs
no love from anyone.
Heh. Christianity is a big cuckoo factory.

That is true of our heavenly Father, as it is of our earthly parents.
They don't need us, but made us anyway, without even asking our
permission.

Not true. Humans have children because they want children, otherwise they'd
be having children against their will like Catholics do.

But all that doesn't apply to you for you are the product of the atheists
"cuckoo factory" and have no earthly nor heavenly parent.

I have no earthly parent? How was I born then?
--
Andrew W.
History books that contain no lies are extremely dull. The christian bible
is a very interesting book indeed.
Religion Exposed!
http://members.optusnet.com.au/~ajwerner
.
User: "Pastor Frank"

Title: Re: Proof atheists are full of crap 27 Mar 2005 07:40:06 PM
"Andrew W" <nospaam_ajwerner@optushome.com.au> wrote in message
news:4245df1e$0$5599$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au...

"Pastor Frank" <PF@christfirst.com> wrote in message
news:1111861583.30cc8c0d78e23fadafc0f63e055f83be@teranews...

"Andrew W" <nospaam_ajwerner@optushome.com.au> wrote in message
news:42452d22$0$5599$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au...


Proof christians are full of crap.
have left him. No surprise there).
But if God is love then why does he need someone to love him?
Why does 'Love' need 'love'? Lol.
It would be like the ocean asking for glasses of water.

God doesn't "need" anything. "God is love" (1 John 4:8,16) become
fully manifested in Jesus Christ and for us to be like God we need to be
loving and caring.


If God doesn't need anything then why did he create us?
We certainly had no need to be created.
He must have done it for some reason. The question is what.


Then christians say - "He did it not because 'He' needs our love but
because 'we' needed to love him".
But the thing is, before we existed we had no needs for anything at all.
He obviously created us to fill his own needs, even though a god that is
everything is not supposed to have any needs because he has whatever he
wants the very instant he desires it, and being 'Love' itself, he needs
no love from anyone.
Heh. Christianity is a big cuckoo factory.

That is true of our heavenly Father, as it is of our earthly parents.
They don't need us, but made us anyway, without even asking our
permission.


Not true. Humans have children because they want children, otherwise
they'd be having children against their will like Catholics do.

Guess what... God wants loving sons. Not all turn out to be that though,
but that's the penalty for creating us with a free will.

But all that doesn't apply to you for you are the product of the atheists
"cuckoo factory" and have no earthly nor heavenly parent.


I have no earthly parent? How was I born then?

As an atheist, you weren't "born" you are still dead, you just don't
know enough to lie down already and get yourself buried. Life only comes
through Jesus Christ.
.
User: "Andrew W"

Title: Re: Proof atheists are full of crap 27 Mar 2005 09:57:47 PM
"Pastor Frank" <PF@christfirst.com> wrote in message
news:1111953891.e7218fb0857d0cf41c36588fb5222e3c@teranews...

"Andrew W" <nospaam_ajwerner@optushome.com.au> wrote in message
news:4245df1e$0$5599$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au...


Not true. Humans have children because they want children, otherwise
they'd be having children against their will like Catholics do.

Guess what... God wants loving sons.

"God wants" "God wants" "God wants".
Why do you christians worship such a selfish god?
I think its clear that christians are suffering from a bizarre and mystical
form of Stockholm syndrome.

Not all turn out to be that though, but that's the penalty for creating us
with a free will.

Your god gives the same kind of free will that a robber gives his victim
when he demands "Your money or your life".
He gives you free will and then asks you to give all your will to him.
He gives you free will just so he can take it away again.
That's called being an Indian giver in my book.


But all that doesn't apply to you for you are the product of the
atheists "cuckoo factory" and have no earthly nor heavenly parent.


I have no earthly parent? How was I born then?

As an atheist, you weren't "born" you are still dead, you just don't
know enough to lie down already and get yourself buried. Life only comes
through Jesus Christ.

You are being totally incoherent.
Look what your stupid cult has done to you.
I would seek professional help if I were you before its too late.
--
Andrew W.
History books that contain no lies are extremely dull. The christian bible
is a very interesting book indeed.
Religion Exposed!
http://members.optusnet.com.au/~ajwerner
.


User: ""

Title: Re: Proof christians are full of crap 26 Mar 2005 10:31:57 PM
Andrew W wrote:

"Pastor Frank" <PF@christfirst.com> wrote in message
news:1111861583.30cc8c0d78e23fadafc0f63e055f83be@teranews...

"Andrew W" <nospaam_ajwerner@optushome.com.au> wrote in message
news:42452d22$0$5599$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au...


Proof christians are full of crap.
have left him. No surprise there).
But if God is love then why does he need someone to love him?
Why does 'Love' need 'love'? Lol.
It would be like the ocean asking for glasses of water.

God doesn't "need" anything. "God is love" (1 John 4:8,16)

become fully

manifested in Jesus Christ and for us to be like God we need to be

loving

and caring.


If God doesn't need anything then why did he create us?

for his pleasure.
.
User: "Robibnikoff"

Title: Re: Proof christians are full of crap 27 Mar 2005 01:25:36 PM
<bedford_park2000@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
news:1111876317.301905.14810@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

Andrew W wrote:

"Pastor Frank" <PF@christfirst.com> wrote in message
news:1111861583.30cc8c0d78e23fadafc0f63e055f83be@teranews...

"Andrew W" <nospaam_ajwerner@optushome.com.au> wrote in message
news:42452d22$0$5599$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au...


Proof christians are full of crap.
have left him. No surprise there).
But if God is love then why does he need someone to love him?
Why does 'Love' need 'love'? Lol.
It would be like the ocean asking for glasses of water.

God doesn't "need" anything. "God is love" (1 John 4:8,16)

become fully

manifested in Jesus Christ and for us to be like God we need to be

loving

and caring.


If God doesn't need anything then why did he create us?


for his pleasure.

And kills us for the same reason, eh? Think he got a lot of chuckles out of
the Tsunami? Boy, that was a real corker.
--
---------
Robyn
Resident Witchypoo
#1557
.
User: "Earle Jones"

Title: Re: Proof christians are full of crap 27 Mar 2005 08:58:34 PM
In article <3anqieF6bv1ltU1@individual.net>,
"Robibnikoff" <witchypoo@broomstick.com> wrote:

<bedford_park2000@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
news:1111876317.301905.14810@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

Andrew W wrote:

"Pastor Frank" <PF@christfirst.com> wrote in message
news:1111861583.30cc8c0d78e23fadafc0f63e055f83be@teranews...

"Andrew W" <nospaam_ajwerner@optushome.com.au> wrote in message
news:42452d22$0$5599$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au...


Proof christians are full of crap.
have left him. No surprise there).
But if God is love then why does he need someone to love him?
Why does 'Love' need 'love'? Lol.
It would be like the ocean asking for glasses of water.

God doesn't "need" anything. "God is love" (1 John 4:8,16)

become fully

manifested in Jesus Christ and for us to be like God we need to be

loving

and caring.


If God doesn't need anything then why did he create us?


for his pleasure.


And kills us for the same reason, eh? Think he got a lot of chuckles out of
the Tsunami? Boy, that was a real corker.

*
Perhaps the tsunami was man-made. Jerry Falwell said:
"A condition like this will bring about the destruction of your
nation. It'll bring about terrorist bombs; it'll bring earthquakes,
tornadoes and possibly a meteor."
If he could spell 'tsunami' he would have included it.
earle
*
"The Bible is the inerrant... Word of God. It is absolutely
infallible, without error in all matters pertaining to faith and
practice, as well as in areas such as geography, science, history,
etc."
-- Jerry Falwell, Finding Inner Peace and Strength (p.26)
.

User: "Sweet Ol Bob SOB"

Title: Re: Proof christians are full of crap 28 Mar 2005 05:30:21 PM
On Sun, 27 Mar 2005 08:25:36 -0500, "Robibnikoff"
<witchypoo@broomstick.com> wrote:

If God doesn't need anything then why did he create us?

for his pleasure.

For entertainment.

And kills us for the same reason, eh? Think he got a lot of chuckles out of
the Tsunami?

God did not know that would happen.
Just because a bunch of theologians proclaim that God is "omniscient"
doesn't make it so. Theologians like to hide their lack of
understanding of Science (and that includes Philosophy) behind the
concept of "infinity" (cf. Etienne Gilson below), which is actually a
Mathematical concept and not a Metaphysical concept. There are no
infinities in Existential Metaphysics.
Can you require God to build a rock so heavy that He cannot lift it?
Such a rock would be contradictory and therefore it could not exist
within the framework of Existential Metaphysics. God cannot be
required to act in any way that results in a contradiction, such as
requiring Him to make something that cannot exist in objective
physical reality.
Can you require God to know something that is intrinsically
unknowable, like whether a particular Turing Machine halts or the
precise time when a particular radioactive atom will decay? Both these
are intrinsically unknowable (cf. Greg Chaitin for the halting problem
and cf. Quantum Mechanics for spontaneous emission).
Physics tells us that God created the Universe based on total
randomness (cf. Heinz Pagels below). But because He imposes Causality
on every process in the Universe, it is possible for some processes to
result in Order. Without Causality there could be no Order, and
therefore no Physics.
The Schrodinger Equation in Quantum Mechanics is deterministic because
it uses Unitary operators. That means that the process described by
the wave function obeys Causality. However, there are certain aspects
of quantum processes which are non-deterministic. That does not
violate Causality.
The Turing Machine is 100% deterministic - after all it is the base
model for computation and you can't get any more deterministic than an
algorithm. However there is an aspect of the Turing Machine that is
non-deterministic, namely whether a particular TM will halt or not in
general
So there are non-deterministic aspects to reality even when the
underlying process is fully deterministic and therefore obeys
Causality. It is this non-determinism that results in Unknowablility.
Can God be required to know that which is intrinsically Unknowable,
like whether a TM will halt in general or when a radiactive atom will
decay in general? How could God be expected to know such things when
they is no way in reality to determine the answer in a deterministic
manner.
Here's where the theologians with their snake oil step in with
meaningless concepts like alleged "infinite" powers (eg.,
"omniscience"). But even that silliness is irrelevant because no
matter how powerful you can imagine God to be, He still cannot be
required to do something that contradicts reality.
If you take this line of thinking to its logical conclusion you arrive
at an understanding of how the Universe operates, namely there are
certain aspects that even God cannot know about. That's why I believe
God created the Universe for entertainment. But that is not my main
point. My main point is that it is futile to blame God for events that
He could not forsee.
This line of thinking also solves the dilemna posed by Free Will. Your
brain, according to Physicists like Roger Penrose, is a quantum
mechanical device. Therefore it participates in non-deterministic
processes like other quantum mechanical systems. That's how you can
explain Intuition, which looks non-deterministic. So does Free Will.
Therefore because God cannot know what decision you are going to make
in advance, He cannot be blamed when you and others make the wrong
decisions.
I leave you with these comments:
+++
"If you want to build a robust universe, one that will never go wrong,
then you don't want to build it like a clock, for the smallest bit of
grit will cause it to go awry. However, if things at the base are
utterly random, nothing can make them more disordered. Complete
randomness at the heart of things is the most stable situation
imaginable - a divinely clever way to build a universe."
-- Heinz Pagels, Physicist and Philosopher
+++
+++
"Religion has its own work, which is to educate people who are too
dull to understand philosophy, or too untutored to be amenable to its
teaching. This is why religion is necessary, for what it preaches is
fundamentally the same as what philosophy teaches, and, unless common
men believed what it preaches, they would behave like beasts. But
theologians should preach, not teach, just as philosophers should
teach, not preach. Theologians should not attempt to demonstrate,
because they cannot do it, and philosophers must be careful not to get
belief mixed up with what they prove, because then they can no longer
prove anything. Now, to preach creation is just a handy way to make
people feel that God is their Master, which is true even though, as is
well known by those who truly philosophize, nothing of the sort ever
happened."
--Etienne Gilson, "Being and Some Philosophers", p. 52
+++
In a recent survey of Americans, 2/3 said that they believed the
Biblical account of creation, namely that God created the Universe in
6 days, about 6000 years ago. And these people vote.
--
Million Mom March For Gun Confiscation
http://home.houston.rr.com/rkba/mmm.html
"What is the State? The State is people - people who believe
they have a right to rule others. These people are the thieving,
murdering brutes responsible for war, conscription, taxation,
massacres, slave camps, gas chambers, killing fields, nuclear
missles, and endless death stretching back ten thousand years.
Luckily for all, the State is only people. And, generally, the
least competent of people. They are the ones who cannot innovate,
only steal. They cannot reason, only kill. They are brutes who
see the greatest efforts of mankind as loot to seize and control.
Yet when they seize the creations of greater minds, the works
crumble in their hands, for they cannot control what they are
incapable of understanding."
-- Victor Koman, "Kings of the High Frontier"
.


User: "Andrew W"

Title: Re: Proof christians are full of crap 27 Mar 2005 12:53:24 AM
<bedford_park2000@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
news:1111876317.301905.14810@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

Andrew W wrote:

"Pastor Frank" <PF@christfirst.com> wrote in message
news:1111861583.30cc8c0d78e23fadafc0f63e055f83be@teranews...

"Andrew W" <nospaam_ajwerner@optushome.com.au> wrote in message
news:42452d22$0$5599$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au...


Proof christians are full of crap.
have left him. No surprise there).
But if God is love then why does he need someone to love him?
Why does 'Love' need 'love'? Lol.
It would be like the ocean asking for glasses of water.

God doesn't "need" anything. "God is love" (1 John 4:8,16)

become fully

manifested in Jesus Christ and for us to be like God we need to be

loving

and caring.


If God doesn't need anything then why did he create us?


for his pleasure.

And you know this how exactly?
What if he's really evil and he's just pretending to be good and he made us
just so he can have someone to dominate, torture and kill and then blame us
for it all?
You can't say he doesn't do a lot of killing.
--
Andrew W.
History books that contain no lies are extremely dull. The christian bible
is a very interesting book indeed.
Religion Exposed!
http://members.optusnet.com.au/~ajwerner
.
User: "Sweet Ol Bob SOB"

Title: Re: Proof christians are full of crap 30 Mar 2005 02:27:13 PM
On Sun, 27 Mar 2005 10:53:24 +1000, "Andrew W"
<nospaam_ajwerner@optushome.com.au> wrote:

You can't say he doesn't do a lot of killing.

God doesn't do any killing.
--
Million Mom March For Gun Confiscation
http://home.houston.rr.com/rkba/mmm.html
"If you build a man a fire and he will be warm for a day. If you
set a man on fire, he will be warm for the rest of his life."
.
User: "Christopher A. Lee"

Title: Re: Proof christians are full of crap 30 Mar 2005 02:30:00 PM
On Wed, 30 Mar 2005 14:27:13 GMT,
(Sweet Ol' Bob (SOB))
wrote:

On Sun, 27 Mar 2005 10:53:24 +1000, "Andrew W"
<nospaam_ajwerner@optushome.com.au> wrote:

You can't say he doesn't do a lot of killing.


God doesn't do any killing.

Figments of the deluded imagination can't.
However the fictional character called "God" in the myths of the
christian religion, does do a lot of killing in the stories.
.
User: "Nico Demusopelous"

Title: Re: Proof christians are full of crap 31 Mar 2005 08:28:39 PM
Christopher A. Lee wrote:


You can't say he doesn't do a lot of killing.


God doesn't do any killing.


Figments of the deluded imagination can't.

Is Christopher positively asserting that the deity the person he was
responding to is merely a figment of his imagination? Does Chrissy have
proof? Or is this another position he just wishes to assert and then
accept on faith?

However the fictional character called "God"

Does Christopher A. Lee wish to positively assert that all claimed
deities are fictional characters? Or does he mean specifically some
interpretation of the Biblical God?
.

User: "Sweet Ol Bob SOB"

Title: Re: Proof christians are full of crap 30 Mar 2005 03:58:14 PM
On Wed, 30 Mar 2005 09:30:00 -0500, Christopher A. Lee
<calee@optonline.net> wrote:

However the fictional character called "God" in the myths of the
christian religion, does do a lot of killing in the stories.

That "God" does not exist in objective reality.
That "God" is an invention designed to cause warm fuzzy feelings in
little jewish-christian children - that's why pictures of this "God"
show a white-bearded patriarch.
It is an icon of someone's father, which serves one purpose - to get
little jewish-christian children to have sex with the clergy. That's
where the ultimate warm fuzzy feeling comes from.
Religious pedophiles are convinced that it is their duty to engender
warm fuzzy feelings in little jewish-christian children so they will
go to heaven.
--
Million Mom March For Gun Confiscation
http://home.houston.rr.com/rkba/mmm.html
"If you build a man a fire and he will be warm for a day. If you
set a man on fire, he will be warm for the rest of his life."
.
User: "Christopher A. Lee"

Title: Re: Proof christians are full of crap 30 Mar 2005 04:16:18 PM
On Wed, 30 Mar 2005 15:58:14 GMT,
(Sweet Ol' Bob (SOB))
wrote:

On Wed, 30 Mar 2005 09:30:00 -0500, Christopher A. Lee
<calee@optonline.net> wrote:

However the fictional character called "God" in the myths of the
christian religion, does do a lot of killing in the stories.


That "God" does not exist in objective reality.

That "God" is an invention designed to cause warm fuzzy feelings in
little jewish-christian children - that's why pictures of this "God"
show a white-bearded patriarch.

It is an icon of someone's father, which serves one purpose - to get
little jewish-christian children to have sex with the clergy. That's
where the ultimate warm fuzzy feeling comes from.

Religious pedophiles are convinced that it is their duty to engender
warm fuzzy feelings in little jewish-christian children so they will
go to heaven.

You have still to demonstrate your metaphysical god.
.
User: "Sweet Ol Bob SOB"

Title: Re: Proof christians are full of crap 30 Mar 2005 06:14:41 PM
On Wed, 30 Mar 2005 11:16:18 -0500, Christopher A. Lee
<calee@optonline.net> wrote:

You have still to demonstrate your metaphysical god.

I realize that.
I am trying to set the stage. Here's the next step.
One of the surest ways to start a big argument in philosophy is for
two people to adopt different Worldviews. According to Webster, the
Worldview (aka " Weltanschauung") is
Worldview: a comprehensive conception or apprehension of the world
especially from a specific standpoint
More specifically the Worldview is the epistemological basis, plus its
supporting ontology, for your rational system - the one you are going
to employ when you argue your point.
In even simpler terms, it is the collection of assumptions you adopt -
the set of axioms about how you view reality. It should be obvious
that if your view of reality is fundamentally different from my view
of reality, we can never argue our points to one another even though
we may adhere to rational arguments within the framework of our
Worldview.
As you know, all the truths that you discover by rational argument are
contained in the axioms you adopt as the basis for your rational
system. The new propositions are just new ways of saying the same
basic thing that is inherent in the axioms. Thus Euclidean Geometry is
development of propositions that are inherent in the axioms. If you
assume that parallel lines cannot ever meet, as an axiom, then the
properties of lines follow as propositions.
Therefore it is critical to any rational system which you will use to
develop rational arguments to support your claims that the Worldview
be declared and accepted before beginning to develop proposition.
Some people when they first encounter this get the feeling that there
is a circular line of reasoning going on - that the propositions are
built into the axioms and the axioms are justified by the proposition.
But with careful thinking you will find that is not the case. It is
indeed true that the propositions are the "result" of the axioms. But
that does not mean that your rational system is circular.
So what are these Worldviews? The two most promiment can be understood
in terms of "objectivity" and "subjectivity". We call the Worldview
that claims reality is objective by the name Realism. We call the
Worldview that claims reality is subjective by the name Idealism. Then
there are offshoots of these two Worldviews such as Mysticism. I do
not pretend to know everything about Worldviews so I am not going to
go any further with this. But I do know enough to point out that
certain rational systems of thought are based on an objective
Worldview and some are based on a subjective Worldview.
For example, despite the nonsense of the Copenhagen School and its
stupid half alive and half dead cats (Schrodinger invented his cat to
ridicule the Copenhagen Interpretation), Physics is most definitely
based on the Worldview of Objective Realism. There is absolutely no
doubt in the mind of the Physicst that electrons actually do exist in
objective reality. If you don't believe that - if you thing electrons
are subjective constructs like the tooth fairy then you will allow
yourself to be hooked up to a high voltage source. After about 1
millisecond you will decide rather certainly that electrons are
exceedingly real.
On the other hand, Mathematics is most definitely based on the
Worldview of Subjective Idealism. There are no such things as
"numbers" in objective reality. There is no such thing as a circle in
objective reality. If you don't agree, then I will let you connect me
to a number or to a circle. I guarantee that nothing will happen,
because numbers, circles and everything in Mathematics is a subjective
construct that resides completely in the mind of the Mathematician.
There are certain tenets of a Worldview - call them axioms if you
want. One of the most fundamental tenets of Objective Realism (aka
"Existential Realism") is the Principle of Apprehension of Being. This
is also known as the Authority of the Senses. Something exists in
objective reality precisely because it is something out there that can
affect your senses - like the shock from a high voltage source.
The apprehension of Being - the awareness of something out there - is
very primitive. A new born infant puts his hand on a hot stove burner
and immediately comes face to face with "something out there". He does
not know what it is, but he definitely knows it is there.
This Principle is not found in Mathematics. There is no "thing out
there" in Mathematics. Everything in Mathematics is contained in your
mind, subjectively. So the very first distinction between Objective
Realism and Subjective Idealism is that Realism adopts the Principle
of Apprehension of Being, and Subjective Idealism does not. This is
critical to deciding on which Worldview you must adopt for any
particular rational system.
From here we move on to Metaphysics, which is the Science that
explains how Physics works. That is what Aristotle meant by it and
what is implied by the prefix "meta". It ultimately is the Science of
Being - the Science of Existence. But whatever it is, it is critical
to realize that it is based on Physics - and that Physics is based on
the Worldview of Existential Realism.
First we realize that in the objective world, there is the Principle
of Consistency. This is Aristotle's terminology for the notion of
Non-Contradiction. In Metaphysical terms, not Logical terms, this
principle states that there cannot be both "A" and "Not-A" in
existence at the same time. Either "A" exists or "Not-A" exists.
Remember we are talking about things out there - what we apprehend as
Being. Something can either Be or Not-Be. It cannot both exist and not
exist at the same time.
The third fundamental principle of Existential Realism is the
Principle of Causality. In terms of Metaphysics we realize that
without Causality there could be no Order. The reason is simple - for
you to describe the Order inherent in something, you must connect the
bojects by Causality. If you merely state the relationship of objects
without connecting them Causally, then you cannot describe the Order
they exhibit because there is no heirarchy to provide the
disctinctions needed to describe the Order.
Try describing an atom without invoking Causality. Remember we are
talking about objective reality here - not subjective reality. You can
do just about anything if you adopt subjective Idealism as your
Worldview. But if you adopt objective Realism then you are forced to
discuss only those things which exist in objective reality, like
atoms. If you try to describe an atom without invoking Causality, you
will not be able to talk about the Order inherent in an atom, in which
case you are forced to describe it like everything else - a glob of
amorphous matter.
But we know better than that because we know that an atom is a highly
ordered entity capable of doing very ordered things, like emitting a
photon of very precise and very repeatable wavelength. That can happen
only if an atom is Ordered, and it can be Ordered only if there is
Causality with which to create the Order based on the heirarchy of
cause and effect.
That's enough for now. As you can see we have barely gotten started.
But this groundwork is necessary if we are going to develop the
arguments rationally.
--
Million Mom March For Gun Confiscation
http://home.houston.rr.com/rkba/mmm.html
"If you build a man a fire and he will be warm for a day. If you
set a man on fire, he will be warm for the rest of his life."
.
User: "Christopher A. Lee"

Title: Re: Proof christians are full of crap 30 Mar 2005 06:40:14 PM
On Wed, 30 Mar 2005 18:14:41 GMT,
(Sweet Ol' Bob (SOB))
wrote:

On Wed, 30 Mar 2005 11:16:18 -0500, Christopher A. Lee
<calee@optonline.net> wrote:

You have still to demonstrate your metaphysical god.


I realize that.

Then don't presume it.

I am trying to set the stage. Here's the next step.

Not another one.

One of the surest ways to start a big argument in philosophy is for
two people to adopt different Worldviews. According to Webster, the
Worldview (aka " Weltanschauung") is

Philosophy is mental masturbation.

Worldview: a comprehensive conception or apprehension of the world
especially from a specific standpoint

More specifically the Worldview is the epistemological basis, plus its
supporting ontology, for your rational system - the one you are going
to employ when you argue your point.

In even simpler terms, it is the collection of assumptions you adopt -
the set of axioms about how you view reality. It should be obvious
that if your view of reality is fundamentally different from my view
of reality, we can never argue our points to one another even though
we may adhere to rational arguments within the framework of our
Worldview.

As you know, all the truths that you discover by rational argument are
contained in the axioms you adopt as the basis for your rational
system. The new propositions are just new ways of saying the same
basic thing that is inherent in the axioms. Thus Euclidean Geometry is
development of propositions that are inherent in the axioms. If you
assume that parallel lines cannot ever meet, as an axiom, then the
properties of lines follow as propositions.

Misuse of the word "truth".

Therefore it is critical to any rational system which you will use to
develop rational arguments to support your claims that the Worldview
be declared and accepted before beginning to develop proposition.

Some people when they first encounter this get the feeling that there
is a circular line of reasoning going on - that the propositions are
built into the axioms and the axioms are justified by the proposition.
But with careful thinking you will find that is not the case. It is
indeed true that the propositions are the "result" of the axioms. But
that does not mean that your rational system is circular.

So what are these Worldviews? The two most promiment can be understood
in terms of "objectivity" and "subjectivity". We call the Worldview
that claims reality is objective by the name Realism. We call the
Worldview that claims reality is subjective by the name Idealism. Then
there are offshoots of these two Worldviews such as Mysticism. I do
not pretend to know everything about Worldviews so I am not going to
go any further with this. But I do know enough to point out that
certain rational systems of thought are based on an objective
Worldview and some are based on a subjective Worldview.

"Worldview" is a horrible word - it enables dishonest arguers to
equivocate because they call "objective reality" a worldview which
implicitly assumes that somebody's religious belief, and even
delusions are accurate descriptions of reality.

For example, despite the nonsense of the Copenhagen School and its
stupid half alive and half dead cats (Schrodinger invented his cat to
ridicule the Copenhagen Interpretation), Physics is most definitely
based on the Worldview of Objective Realism. There is absolutely no
doubt in the mind of the Physicst that electrons actually do exist in
objective reality. If you don't believe that - if you thing electrons
are subjective constructs like the tooth fairy then you will allow
yourself to be hooked up to a high voltage source. After about 1
millisecond you will decide rather certainly that electrons are
exceedingly real.

And you still haven't demonstrated this metaphysical god.

On the other hand, Mathematics is most definitely based on the
Worldview of Subjective Idealism. There are no such things as
"numbers" in objective reality. There is no such thing as a circle in
objective reality. If you don't agree, then I will let you connect me
to a number or to a circle. I guarantee that nothing will happen,
because numbers, circles and everything in Mathematics is a subjective
construct that resides completely in the mind of the Mathematician.

There are certain tenets of a Worldview - call them axioms if you
want. One of the most fundamental tenets of Objective Realism (aka
"Existential Realism") is the Principle of Apprehension of Being. This
is also known as the Authority of the Senses. Something exists in
objective reality precisely because it is something out there that can
affect your senses - like the shock from a high voltage source.

Don't hide behind "worldview's".

The apprehension of Being - the awareness of something out there - is
very primitive. A new born infant puts his hand on a hot stove burner
and immediately comes face to face with "something out there". He does
not know what it is, but he definitely knows it is there.

This Principle is not found in Mathematics. There is no "thing out
there" in Mathematics. Everything in Mathematics is contained in your
mind, subjectively. So the very first distinction between Objective
Realism and Subjective Idealism is that Realism adopts the Principle
of Apprehension of Being, and Subjective Idealism does not. This is
critical to deciding on which Worldview you must adopt for any
particular rational system.

You're equivocating between a real-world "thing out there" that a baby
sees, and your religious belief in a "metaphysical god".

From here we move on to Metaphysics, which is the Science that

*****.
Metaphysics isn't science. It's what believers hide behind as a
copout, the pretence that it applies in the real world.
Demonstrate that it does before presuming it.
Until you do that it is meaningless gobbledygook.

explains how Physics works. That is what Aristotle meant by it and

Only in the dreams of believers who have no idea how science works.

what is implied by the prefix "meta". It ultimately is the Science of
Being - the Science of Existence. But whatever it is, it is critical
to realize that it is based on Physics - and that Physics is based on
the Worldview of Existential Realism.

***** meaningless gobbledygook.
Is it really worth wasting time on the rest of this?
.
User: "Sweet Ol Bob SOB"

Title: Re: Proof christians are full of crap 30 Mar 2005 09:15:46 PM
On Wed, 30 Mar 2005 13:40:14 -0500, Christopher A. Lee
<calee@optonline.net> wrote:

You have still to demonstrate your metaphysical god.

I realize that.

Then don't presume it.

I have not presumed anything.
You stop presuming that I did.

Philosophy is mental masturbation.

That's because you're a jackoff.
--
Million Mom March For Gun Confiscation
http://home.houston.rr.com/rkba/mmm.html
"If you build a man a fire and he will be warm for a day. If you
set a man on fire, he will be warm for the rest of his life."
.






User: "Sister Mary"

Title: Re: Proof christians are full of crap 06 Apr 2005 10:22:16 PM
On Wed, 30 Mar 2005 14:27:13 GMT,
(Sweet Ol' Bob (SOB))
wrote:

On Sun, 27 Mar 2005 10:53:24 +1000, "Andrew W"
<nospaam_ajwerner@optushome.com.au> wrote:

You can't say he doesn't do a lot of killing.


God doesn't do any killing.

Neither did Hitler
.
User: "Sweet Ol Bob SOB"

Title: Re: Proof christians are full of crap 07 Apr 2005 12:39:50 AM
On Wed, 06 Apr 2005 18:22:16 -0400, Sister Mary <sm@tcn.met> wrote:

You can't say he doesn't do a lot of killing.

God doesn't do any killing.

Neither did Hitler

And now the Award for Complete Irrelevance goes to...
Envelope please...
The winner is Sister Mary with her comment about Hitler.
--
Million Mom March For Gun Confiscation
http://home.houston.rr.com/rkba/mmm.html
An atheist visited Isaac Newton and noticed his new toy,
a mechanical model of the Solar System.
"Who made this?", asked the atheist.
"No one", replied Newton.
"But somebody MUST have made it - it couldn't make itself",
said the atheist.
"Why do you believe that about the model, but not about the
real thing?", asked Newton.
.


User: "Barry OGrady"

Title: Re: Proof christians are full of crap 13 Apr 2005 12:15:11 PM
On Wed, 30 Mar 2005 14:27:13 GMT,
(Sweet Ol' Bob (SOB)) wrote:

On Sun, 27 Mar 2005 10:53:24 +1000, "Andrew W"
<nospaam_ajwerner@optushome.com.au> wrote:

You can't say he doesn't do a lot of killing.


God doesn't do any killing.

We are pretending that God exists.

--

Barry
.

User: "Jez"

Title: Re: Proof christians are full of crap 31 Mar 2005 07:37:19 PM
Sweet Ol' Bob (SOB) wrote:

On Sun, 27 Mar 2005 10:53:24 +1000, "Andrew W"
<nospaam_ajwerner@optushome.com.au> wrote:


You can't say he doesn't do a lot of killing.



God doesn't do any killing.

Or existing.
--
Jez
'Realism is seductive because once you have accepted the reasonable
notion that you should base your actions on reality, you are too often
led to accept, without much questioning, someone else's version of what
that reality is. It is a crucial act of independent thinking to be
skeptical of someone else's description of reality.'-
Howard Zinn
NFS Underground2, Americas Army And MOH-PA
.
User: "Sweet Ol Bob SOB"

Title: Re: Proof christians are full of crap 31 Mar 2005 09:10:20 PM
On Thu, 31 Mar 2005 20:37:19 +0100, Jez
<iced_spear@NODAMNSPAMpipex.com> wrote:

God doesn't do any killing.

Or existing.

Prover that claim.
--
Million Mom March For Gun Confiscation
http://home.houston.rr.com/rkba/mmm.html
"If you build a man a fire and he will be warm for a day. If you
set a man on fire, he will be warm for the rest of his life."
.
User: "Jez"

Title: Re: Proof christians are full of crap 31 Mar 2005 10:44:04 PM
Sweet Ol' Bob (SOB) wrote:

On Thu, 31 Mar 2005 20:37:19 +0100, Jez
<iced_spear@NODAMNSPAMpipex.com> wrote:


God doesn't do any killing.



Or existing.



Prover that claim.

'Hey God, you about?'
........silence..........
'God...yoo hooo....where are you....come out, come out, wherever you are.'
.........More silence.......
'Come on big-fella, don't be shy !'
......silence, yet again.....
Nope, he's not there.
Omnipotent, Pah ! Or maybe he's just deaf ?
Nah, just non-existent.
Oh well !
--
Jez
'Realism is seductive because once you have accepted the reasonable
notion that you should base your actions on reality, you are too often
led to accept, without much questioning, someone else's version of what
that reality is. It is a crucial act of independent thinking to be
skeptical of someone else's description of reality.'-
Howard Zinn
NFS Underground2, Americas Army And MOH-PA
.




User: "Barry OGrady"

Title: Re: Proof christians are full of crap 13 Apr 2005 12:15:10 PM
On Sun, 27 Mar 2005 10:53:24 +1000, "Andrew W" <nospaam_ajwerner@optushome.com.au> wrote:

<bedford_park2000@yahoo.ca> wrote in message
news:1111876317.301905.14810@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

Andrew W wrote:

"Pastor Frank" <PF@christfirst.com> wrote in message
news:1111861583.30cc8c0d78e23fadafc0f63e055f83be@teranews...

"Andrew W" <nospaam_ajwerner@optushome.com.au> wrote in message
news:42452d22$0$5599$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au...


Proof christians are full of crap.
have left him. No surprise there).
But if God is love then why does he need someone to love him?
Why does 'Love' need 'love'? Lol.
It would be like the ocean asking for glasses of water.

God doesn't "need" anything. "God is love" (1 John 4:8,16)

become fully

manifested in Jesus Christ and for us to be like God we need to be

loving

and caring.


If God doesn't need anything then why did he create us?


for his pleasure.



And you know this how exactly?

What if he's really evil and he's just pretending to be good and he made us
just so he can have someone to dominate, torture and kill and then blame us
for it all?
You can't say he doesn't do a lot of killing.

God created Satan as a scapegoat.

--
Andrew W.

History books that contain no lies are extremely dull. The christian bible
is a very interesting book indeed.

Religion Exposed!
http://members.optusnet.com.au/~ajwerner

Barry
.


User: "yõwïe"

Title: Re: Proof christians are full of crap 27 Mar 2005 01:59:50 AM
In <1111876317.301905.14810@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>
bedford_park2000@yahoo.ca posted to
[alt.atheism.satire]:

Andrew W wrote:

"Pastor Frank" <PF@christfirst.com> wrote in message
news:1111861583.30cc8c0d78e23fadafc0f63e055f83be@teranews...

"Andrew W" <nospaam_ajwerner@optushome.com.au> wrote in message
news:42452d22$0$5599$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au...


Proof christians are full of crap.
have left him. No surprise there).
But if God is love then why does he need someone to love him?
Why does 'Love' need 'love'? Lol.
It would be like the ocean asking for glasses of water.

God doesn't "need" anything. "God is love" (1 John 4:8,16)

become fully

manifested in Jesus Christ and for us to be like God we need to be

loving

and caring.


If God doesn't need anything then why did he create us?


for his pleasure.

Or because He was constipated.
--
"...brainlessness is no hindrance to
finding love and grace in Jesus Christ."
-Pastor Frank
.


User: "yõwïe"

Title: Re: Proof christians are full of crap 26 Mar 2005 11:28:09 PM
In <4245df1e$0$5599$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au>
Andrew W posted to
[alt.flame.jesus.christ]:

"Pastor Frank" <PF@christfirst.com> wrote in message
news:1111861583.30cc8c0d78e23fadafc0f63e055f83be@teranews...

"Andrew W" <nospaam_ajwerner@optushome.com.au> wrote in message
news:42452d22$0$5599$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au...


Proof christians are full of crap.
have left him. No surprise there).
But if God is love then why does he need someone to love him?
Why does 'Love' need 'love'? Lol.
It would be like the ocean asking for glasses of water.

God doesn't "need" anything. "God is love" (1 John 4:8,16) become fully
manifested in Jesus Christ and for us to be like God we need to be loving
and caring.


If God doesn't need anything then why did he create us?
We certainly had no need to be created.
He must have done it for some reason. The question is what.

Clue: In the ageless words of P. Frank -
"I(sic) doesn't have "to make sense" Yowie! If it made sense then
none of us would require any belief and/or faith.
The whole thing would be merely...yawn...
boring facts."
Message-ID: <926di0$a9k$3@nntp.mozcom.com>
--
"...brainlessness is no hindrance to
finding love and grace in Jesus Christ."
-Pastor Frank
.
User: "Pastor Frank"

Title: Re: Proof atheists are full of crap 27 Mar 2005 07:30:28 PM
"yõwïe" <arndalebilo@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:SNOTME1cb0940d3c1efc9989756@aifind.info...

In <4245df1e$0$5599$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au>
Andrew W posted to
[alt.flame.jesus.christ]:

"Pastor Frank" <PF@christfirst.com> wrote in message
news:1111861583.30cc8c0d78e23fadafc0f63e055f83be@teranews...

"Andrew W" <nospaam_ajwerner@optushome.com.au> wrote in message
news:42452d22$0$5599$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au...


Proof christians are full of crap.
have left him. No surprise there).
But if God is love then why does he need someone to love him?
Why does 'Love' need 'love'? Lol.
It would be like the ocean asking for glasses of water.

God doesn't "need" anything. "God is love" (1 John 4:8,16) become
fully
manifested in Jesus Christ and for us to be like God we need to be
loving
and caring.


If God doesn't need anything then why did he create us?
We certainly had no need to be created.
He must have done it for some reason. The question is what.


For the same reason your parents made you, to their eternal regret I'm
sure. Will you keep disappointing your heavenly Father also?
.
User: "Andrew W"

Title: Re: Proof atheists are full of crap 27 Mar 2005 09:39:16 PM
"Pastor Frank" <PF@christfirst.com> wrote in message
news:1111953887.2cbf424c3cb6ec2742ed19e83db9c31a@teranews...

"yõwïe" <arndalebilo@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:SNOTME1cb0940d3c1efc9989756@aifind.info...

In <4245df1e$0$5599$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au>
Andrew W posted to
[alt.flame.jesus.christ]:

"Pastor Frank" <PF@christfirst.com> wrote in message
news:1111861583.30cc8c0d78e23fadafc0f63e055f83be@teranews...

"Andrew W" <nospaam_ajwerner@optushome.com.au> wrote in message
news:42452d22$0$5599$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au...


Proof christians are full of crap.
have left him. No surprise there).
But if God is love then why does he need someone to love him?
Why does 'Love' need 'love'? Lol.
It would be like the ocean asking for glasses of water.

God doesn't "need" anything. "God is love" (1 John 4:8,16) become
fully
manifested in Jesus Christ and for us to be like God we need to be
loving
and caring.


If God doesn't need anything then why did he create us?
We certainly had no need to be created.
He must have done it for some reason. The question is what.


For the same reason your parents made you,

And what reason is that?
Why don't you just be a man and admit that you're totally clueless about
what your god wants?
Christians are so smug and pretentious.

to their eternal regret I'm sure.

Lol. That was funny.

Will you keep disappointing your heavenly Father also?

By indicating that your god can be disappointed, you are not only suggesting
that your god's plan can fail just by someone sneezing too hard, but that
this god has unrealistically high expectations. High expectations for a
single result cannot lead to unconditional love.
Human mothers have more unconditional love for their babies than your god
ever has.
Your god is like an obsessed and manipulative father who wants his son to be
a doctor like him, and then has a major tantrum when his son announces that
he wants to be a botanist.
Parents like that should be shot.
--
Andrew W.
History books that contain no lies are extremely dull. The christian bible
is a very interesting book indeed.
Religion Exposed!
http://members.optusnet.com.au/~ajwerner
.

User: "yõwïe"

Title: Re: Proof atheists are full of crap 27 Mar 2005 09:12:48 PM
In <1111953887.2cbf424c3cb6ec2742ed19e83db9c31a@teranews>
Pastor Frank posted to
[alt.atheism.satire]:

"yõwïe" <arndalebilo@hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:SNOTME1cb0940d3c1efc9989756@aifind.info...

No he didn't.

If God doesn't need anything then why did he create us?
We certainly had no need to be created.
He must have done it for some reason. The question is what.

For the same reason your parents made you, to their eternal regret I'm
sure. Will you keep disappointing your heavenly Father also?

Is that a flame, Frank?
--
"...brainlessness is no hindrance to
finding love and grace in Jesus Christ."
-Pastor Frank
.






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